One thing they could do though, is have hardcore server rulesets where the death penalty is steeper [...]
Yeah well, thats something they can always do.
If there is enough population for having a number of servers, anyway. And the demand for such a server is high enough.
However the general death penalty in Pantheon should be balanced - it shouldnt be so harsh that nobody takes risks, but it also shouldnt be so trivial that nobody cares about dying.
Pretty much what Vanguard archieved.
I also liked the state of Vanguard in the beginning - one could make items soulbound if one wanted to, but one wasnt forced to do so. This could be done in Pantheon, too.
[...] People like me, who want a challenging game, [...]
Challenge should come from hard combat. Having to juggle many variables of the combat system (like needing to manage your health, mana, and consumeables) and environment (like respawn times). Not from excessively long travel times, overly harsh death penalties, or the like.
The best approach to crafting is to have all drops be mats, and all items like weapons and armor be crafted.
Suit yourself, if you can find such a game. I wouldnt mind a game with such a concept either.
However, about Pantheon, we already know thats not gonna happen. And I kinda like that even more, to be honest. Having crafting as an option, as a way of further improvement - not as something thats forced upon you.
Again I
am not trying to start a fight, I am just saying too harsh of a penalty
is not going to work any will keep people away before this game start.
My main argument against too harsh penalties is that I've seen that in Lineage 2 and it keeps people not from playing, but from taking risks. And thats bad and leads to dull gaming.
I don't really think Vanguard achieved anything with regard to death penalty. The only thing that stayed on the corpse was items not bound, which was nothing of importance as everything important equipped or in your inventory was bound. You could also just take the experience hit and summon your stuff at any time. The process of getting experience was even faster than EQ, so it didn't take very long to make up the exp debt.
While I agree that MMOs have been in the pot for many years, (Since WOTLK) however I do not agree that the game has to bring back Corpse runs. I played UO back in 1998, It was great having no life and being able to do that. However I have evolved into a grown man with a family and bills to pay. Corpse runs will not get people like me who do miss the old days of MMOS however do not miss stupid mechanics like corpse runs. Now Gear Decay where my gear breaks, I am all for. WHY? Because bring gear like I had i n SWG or even having to sit and wait for a Doctor to heal my stats I have no problem with death penalties that hurt. There is a difference between being stupid and having a well balanced penalty. SWG is a great example.
Again I am not trying to start a fight, I am just saying too harsh of a penalty is not going to work any will keep people away before this game start.
When you were a little kid, playing in your mamas basement, I was an adult with a full time job for years, and with a wife and responsibilities and yet I still had no problems playing EQ with CRs, nor did any of my other friends who were in my guild who also were adults, had full time jobs and families. Heck, our IT director was in our guild.
So excuse me if I don't accept the "I have a life and am real busy with responsibilities" excuse because it is an excuse, not a legitimate reason. You see, one thing us adults learn is how to manage our time well. I can say this, if I couldn't make the time to play a game like EQ, I wouldn't play a game like EQ. Maybe think on that rather than thinking the game should be changed to fit you? Especially since there are tons of games out there that are perfect for your "grown up man" life?
I doubt you work in a real IT job. You know what? I do. I just finished my B.S Degree this year. I spent 12 year in the IT field, 10 of which I spent time to earn 2 degrees. I also managed to play Vanilla and BC WOW and accomplish stuff. The reason I doubt you work in a real IT job is because I average 50 hours a week of work, that's not including the 2 to 4 hours a night I put in reading cert books or spending time advancing my skills. That does not even add in the hour or 2 a night I cook for my family, or spending 30 minutes before bedtime with a 2 and 3 year old. Now what I will say is its very unlikely that you have little kids, or have an IT job where you must work on certifications or renewing your certification every 2 to 3 years. I do know where you are coming from not wanting an easy game. However pandering to your kind who have 0 obligations outside your 9 to 5 job is not going to make ANY game float.
Yes Today's MMOs are too dam easy. Again its about Balance and no Corpse runs are not the answer.
I don't really think Vanguard achieved anything with regard to death penalty. The only thing that stayed on the corpse was items not bound, which was nothing of importance as everything important equipped or in your inventory was bound. You could also just take the experience hit and summon your stuff at any time. The process of getting experience was even faster than EQ, so it didn't take very long to make up the exp debt.
No it didnt achieve anything. The Game is still not running today which Vanguard tried to go back to the old school and it is shut down today. The problem is too many people cling to old unacceptable ways of doing this and not on ideas that matter. If a persons gear takes 100+ hours to farm are they going to be willing to allow to it break forever gone or on their body so someone comes and takes it? No they are not and only a small handful of players will ever be willing to play a game like this. Look at Mortal Online. The game is basically dead outside a few players. There are more players on WOW Private serves than on MO.
So for any MMO to be successful it needs to hit in the 100K to 500K range EVEN FOR A CROWD FUNDED GAME. MMOs require a lot of development work to start up as well as on going development work. They also require Operational maintenance both to start up and ongoing. So it the MMO does not hit in this range even as a Indy made MMO kiss it goodbye.
So again while the crowd who is still overly stuck on EQ or UO, or SWG or any of the MMOs Pre WOW; we will not have a decent Crowd fund MMO period.
There must be balance between risk and reward and harsh penalties. SWG had a good balance because yes your gear could break, however getting another set of good gear was not a tough task. You corpse runs do nothing but make people mad.
Again: if you have a problem with EverQuest and/or Vanguard, you are probably in the wrong forum.
Pantheon is supposed to be the spiritual successor to both these games.
Also, please stop making riddiculous claims like Vanguard shut down because of this or that detail.
Vanguard shut down because SOE had already EQ2 and didnt really wanted to make the investment necessary to relaunch Vanguard in a propper state. So the population kept dropping and the necessary investment to keep it running went too high.
I don't really think Vanguard achieved anything with regard to death penalty. The only thing that stayed on the corpse was items not bound, which was nothing of importance as everything important equipped or in your inventory was bound. You could also just take the experience hit and summon your stuff at any time. The process of getting experience was even faster than EQ, so it didn't take very long to make up the exp debt.
There must be balance between risk and reward and harsh penalties. SWG had a good balance because yes your gear could break, however getting another set of good gear was not a tough task. You corpse runs do nothing but make people mad.
A stiff death penalty creates tension and excitement that wouldn't otherwise exist; Beyond that it also helps preserve the mystery in a MMO, because the added risk makes seeing and completing content a more dangerous process.
If those things don't appeal to and you get mad when you die, you most likely are not part of Pantheon's target audience. The truth is, I think many naysayers like yourself will change your tune as soon as you notice your heart rate actually increases during combat in a good MMO.
I don't really think Vanguard achieved anything with regard to death penalty. The only thing that stayed on the corpse was items not bound, which was nothing of importance as everything important equipped or in your inventory was bound. You could also just take the experience hit and summon your stuff at any time. The process of getting experience was even faster than EQ, so it didn't take very long to make up the exp debt.
No it didnt achieve anything. The Game is still not running today which Vanguard tried to go back to the old school and it is shut down today. The problem is too many people cling to old unacceptable ways of doing this and not on ideas that matter. If a persons gear takes 100+ hours to farm are they going to be willing to allow to it break forever gone or on their body so someone comes and takes it? No they are not and only a small handful of players will ever be willing to play a game like this. Look at Mortal Online. The game is basically dead outside a few players. There are more players on WOW Private serves than on MO.
So for any MMO to be successful it needs to hit in the 100K to 500K range EVEN FOR A CROWD FUNDED GAME. MMOs require a lot of development work to start up as well as on going development work. They also require Operational maintenance both to start up and ongoing. So it the MMO does not hit in this range even as a Indy made MMO kiss it goodbye.
So again while the crowd who is still overly stuck on EQ or UO, or SWG or any of the MMOs Pre WOW; we will not have a decent Crowd fund MMO period.
There must be balance between risk and reward and harsh penalties. SWG had a good balance because yes your gear could break, however getting another set of good gear was not a tough task. You corpse runs do nothing but make people mad.
It is quite clear this game is not for you. You make arguments that are counter to everything this game is being designed around. You want a mainstream game, go play one, there are plenty out there.
I doubt you work in a real IT job. You know what? I do. I just finished my B.S Degree this year. I spent 12 year in the IT field, 10 of which I spent time to earn 2 degrees. I also managed to play Vanilla and BC WOW and accomplish stuff. The reason I doubt you work in a real IT job is because I average 50 hours a week of work, that's not including the 2 to 4 hours a night I put in reading cert books or spending time advancing my skills. That does not even add in the hour or 2 a night I cook for my family, or spending 30 minutes before bedtime with a 2 and 3 year old. Now what I will say is its very unlikely that you have little kids, or have an IT job where you must work on certifications or renewing your certification every 2 to 3 years. I do know where you are coming from not wanting an easy game. However pandering to your kind who have 0 obligations outside your 9 to 5 job is not going to make ANY game float.
Yes Today's MMOs are too dam easy. Again its about Balance and no Corpse runs are not the answer.
Nice try, but deflecting from the fact that people do have lives and can play the game at the same time won't change this. I don't need to defend myself to someone who wasn't even born when I was working in the field. So please keep the unverifiable accusations out of this.
Fact is, having a CR mechanic doesn't change the fact. You can still play the game, but you will have to be careful, plan time to play and consider such as you play because your case is special (ie as you explain, you have no time). Other people though will have more time. Working in a couple hours every other night and maybe a little bit longer on a weekend day worked just fine for many people who worked during EQ. As Brad said, he is targeting a 2 hour average window for a player.
Looking at your explanation of time available, it looks like you don't have time to play at all. Maybe you should stick to the console games or the numerous other mainstream casual entertainment software out there. It appears that this game is not for you and expecting this game to change because you only have limited time to play is the height of entitlement and why mainstream games are complete garbage. You need to adjust to the game, or pick another game.
I will never understand why people come to games that are not targeting them as an audience and then argue against those mechanics. It is rather... odd.
If those things don't appeal to and you get mad when you die, you most likely are not part of Pantheon's target audience. The truth is, I think many naysayers like yourself will change your tune as soon as you notice your heart rate actually increases during combat in a good MMO.
Unfortunately, they won't Dullahan. I watched these types of arguments play out in game after game over the years. They want their games to be FPS like in design nature. That is, they don't want to put time and effort with consequence of play. They just want to plop down kill some things, chat a bit and then move on. I had a few colleagues who had very little time as he does due to lots of wife agro and heavy newborn or young children responsibilities, increasing hours on the job (on call can be problematic at times), going to school as well, etc...
Thing is, those people didn't play games much (other than quick FPS or single player games) because they had very little time. They however didn't whine and cry that every game didn't cater to their life style. People need to take the responsibility that not every game will fit them. Heck, I accepted this fact with the entire MMO industry and you don't see me over in a WoW forum going on about how it being mainstream.
People need to take the responsibility that not every game will fit them. Heck, I accepted this fact with the entire MMO industry and you don't see me over in a WoW forum going on about how it being mainstream.
Exactly. I wish there was a tenet sticky here that would be required reading before posting. I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't follow the path of other recent MMOs. I'll never understand why people whine to casualize everything and then complain at the lack of difficulty after the game was casualized.
People need to take the responsibility that not every game will fit them. Heck, I accepted this fact with the entire MMO industry and you don't see me over in a WoW forum going on about how it being mainstream.
Exactly. I wish there was a tenet sticky here that would be required reading before posting. I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't follow the path of other recent MMOs. I'll never understand why people whine to casualize everything and then complain at the lack of difficulty after the game was casualized.
They don't.
"one" group wants the game to be more casual and they don't complain once it's made that way.
The "other" group then complains that the game is too casual.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
"one" group wants the game to be more casual and they don't complain once it's made that way.
The "other" group then complains that the game is too casual.
Well, that hasn't always been my experience. You can see the posts on this board even. People are asking for a challenging game, then, in the same post, asking for mechanics that trivializes the challenge.
I do see your point though and after reading your post - I've definitely seen that as well.
I suppose it's just more frustration that all MMOs today aren't challenging, and when one (Pantheon) at least claims that it's going to try to be that way, you still have those who come to try to argue for casual mechanics, when there are endless other options to meet that players expectations.
People need to take the responsibility that not every game will fit them. Heck, I accepted this fact with the entire MMO industry and you don't see me over in a WoW forum going on about how it being mainstream.
Exactly. I wish there was a tenet sticky here that would be required reading before posting. I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't follow the path of other recent MMOs. I'll never understand why people whine to casualize everything and then complain at the lack of difficulty after the game was casualized.
They don't.
"one" group wants the game to be more casual and they don't complain once it's made that way.
The "other" group then complains that the game is too casual.
Statistics seem to indicate otherwise. There are less people playing mainstream MMOs than even 5 years ago. If all those people were truly indicative of what the majority wanted and were happy with the changes in the industry, we wouldn't see every game going F2P, closing down, or losing millions of players every year.
While every other genre is growing, MMOs are tanking.
People need to take the responsibility that not every game will fit them. Heck, I accepted this fact with the entire MMO industry and you don't see me over in a WoW forum going on about how it being mainstream.
Exactly. I wish there was a tenet sticky here that would be required reading before posting. I'm hoping Pantheon doesn't follow the path of other recent MMOs. I'll never understand why people whine to casualize everything and then complain at the lack of difficulty after the game was casualized.
They don't.
"one" group wants the game to be more casual and they don't complain once it's made that way.
The "other" group then complains that the game is too casual.
Problem is, that is not what happens. EQ has been made more casual, it was not initially so. WoW was made more casual than it was at release. EQ2 was made more casual than it was at release trying to be like casual WoW. The casual players have always been the ones demanding every game become casual. They are the most squeaky wheel that always gets oiled.
LoTRO was going along fine from Alpha until it got to open beta, then... entered all the WoW players demanding the game have more casual elements. This continued on after release, demanding shorter dungeons, easier mobs, more streamlined devleopment, etc...
The same occurred with DDO as they demanded the systems be simplified and streamlined for the more casual player until the Elite dungeons (the highest difficulty) are all now easily solable for casuals (A game for crying out loud that has multiple levels of difficulty with Solo-Casual-Normal-Hard-Elite).
Rift is another game where it was released with solid difficult dungeons and again, like clock work the casuals complained about their time, their busy lives, and their fun. Just like the other games, they made the content easier, more casual, more suited to easy play.
So in all my experience with these games, the casuals have always been the ones demanding a game be changed and I can show you thousands of pages from numerous games over the years with this very progression of catering to casuals.
One thing about the casuals not complaing once they get it their way. The don't at first, but then they complain about being bored, about how the developers are slow to release content, or how they are so tired of grinding that mundane quests/faction for little meaning. It is why they game hop from game to game.
Comments
Yeah well, thats something they can always do.
If there is enough population for having a number of servers, anyway. And the demand for such a server is high enough.
However the general death penalty in Pantheon should be balanced - it shouldnt be so harsh that nobody takes risks, but it also shouldnt be so trivial that nobody cares about dying.
Pretty much what Vanguard archieved.
I also liked the state of Vanguard in the beginning - one could make items soulbound if one wanted to, but one wasnt forced to do so. This could be done in Pantheon, too.
I do. Permanent item decay and I'm out. Treadmill gaming is not my thing. Unless you only talk about repairs - I wouldnt mind those.
Err, neither is Pantheon. Pantheon will be a spiritual successor to EverQuest and Vanguard - not a recreation of either game with prettier graphics.
If you want to play EQ, you have to play EQ.
Challenge should come from hard combat. Having to juggle many variables of the combat system (like needing to manage your health, mana, and consumeables) and environment (like respawn times). Not from excessively long travel times, overly harsh death penalties, or the like.
Suit yourself, if you can find such a game. I wouldnt mind a game with such a concept either.
However, about Pantheon, we already know thats not gonna happen. And I kinda like that even more, to be honest. Having crafting as an option, as a way of further improvement - not as something thats forced upon you.
My main argument against too harsh penalties is that I've seen that in Lineage 2 and it keeps people not from playing, but from taking risks. And thats bad and leads to dull gaming.
Yes Today's MMOs are too dam easy. Again its about Balance and no Corpse runs are not the answer.
So for any MMO to be successful it needs to hit in the 100K to 500K range EVEN FOR A CROWD FUNDED GAME. MMOs require a lot of development work to start up as well as on going development work. They also require Operational maintenance both to start up and ongoing. So it the MMO does not hit in this range even as a Indy made MMO kiss it goodbye.
So again while the crowd who is still overly stuck on EQ or UO, or SWG or any of the MMOs Pre WOW; we will not have a decent Crowd fund MMO period.
There must be balance between risk and reward and harsh penalties. SWG had a good balance because yes your gear could break, however getting another set of good gear was not a tough task. You corpse runs do nothing but make people mad.
Pantheon is supposed to be the spiritual successor to both these games.
Also, please stop making riddiculous claims like Vanguard shut down because of this or that detail.
Vanguard shut down because SOE had already EQ2 and didnt really wanted to make the investment necessary to relaunch Vanguard in a propper state. So the population kept dropping and the necessary investment to keep it running went too high.
If those things don't appeal to and you get mad when you die, you most likely are not part of Pantheon's target audience. The truth is, I think many naysayers like yourself will change your tune as soon as you notice your heart rate actually increases during combat in a good MMO.
Fact is, having a CR mechanic doesn't change the fact. You can still play the game, but you will have to be careful, plan time to play and consider such as you play because your case is special (ie as you explain, you have no time). Other people though will have more time. Working in a couple hours every other night and maybe a little bit longer on a weekend day worked just fine for many people who worked during EQ. As Brad said, he is targeting a 2 hour average window for a player.
Looking at your explanation of time available, it looks like you don't have time to play at all. Maybe you should stick to the console games or the numerous other mainstream casual entertainment software out there. It appears that this game is not for you and expecting this game to change because you only have limited time to play is the height of entitlement and why mainstream games are complete garbage. You need to adjust to the game, or pick another game.
I will never understand why people come to games that are not targeting them as an audience and then argue against those mechanics. It is rather... odd.
Thing is, those people didn't play games much (other than quick FPS or single player games) because they had very little time. They however didn't whine and cry that every game didn't cater to their life style. People need to take the responsibility that not every game will fit them. Heck, I accepted this fact with the entire MMO industry and you don't see me over in a WoW forum going on about how it being mainstream.
"one" group wants the game to be more casual and they don't complain once it's made that way.
The "other" group then complains that the game is too casual.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I do see your point though and after reading your post - I've definitely seen that as well.
I suppose it's just more frustration that all MMOs today aren't challenging, and when one (Pantheon) at least claims that it's going to try to be that way, you still have those who come to try to argue for casual mechanics, when there are endless other options to meet that players expectations.
While every other genre is growing, MMOs are tanking.
LoTRO was going along fine from Alpha until it got to open beta, then... entered all the WoW players demanding the game have more casual elements. This continued on after release, demanding shorter dungeons, easier mobs, more streamlined devleopment, etc...
The same occurred with DDO as they demanded the systems be simplified and streamlined for the more casual player until the Elite dungeons (the highest difficulty) are all now easily solable for casuals (A game for crying out loud that has multiple levels of difficulty with Solo-Casual-Normal-Hard-Elite).
Rift is another game where it was released with solid difficult dungeons and again, like clock work the casuals complained about their time, their busy lives, and their fun. Just like the other games, they made the content easier, more casual, more suited to easy play.
So in all my experience with these games, the casuals have always been the ones demanding a game be changed and I can show you thousands of pages from numerous games over the years with this very progression of catering to casuals.
One thing about the casuals not complaing once they get it their way. The don't at first, but then they complain about being bored, about how the developers are slow to release content, or how they are so tired of grinding that mundane quests/faction for little meaning. It is why they game hop from game to game.