Btw, in reference to quite a few posts in this thread, climates and atmospheres are going to be very important in Pantheon. There will be items and skills and spells you'll need in order to enter some areas, or at least, to be as effective as you'd like to be in certain areas. The easy example would be a hot, desert environment. Having items and buffs that increase your survivability in areas of extreme cold or heat will be very important. Having skills that could be built up over time that made you more resistant to extreme climates would be very cool. Situational gear and its key role in Pantheon ties in directly with the idea that when we say PvE, we *really* mean engaging the environment -- too often does the 'environment' in PvE simply mean NPCs. We want where you are to matter, not just who you are going up against. Some of these environments could be large, like a desert zone that was extremely hot. But some of these atmospheres could be smaller, more enclosed areas, say in the depths of a dungeon. There could be areas within a dungeon that are absolutely dark, or silenced (where spoken spells won't work), or be filled with disease or miasma. The cause of these hazards will vary --- they could be natural, or part of the dungeon because of some ancient curse, or they could be cast by a player or NPC and have a limited duration. They could also appear seemingly randomly, for example you are travelling overland and a nasty storm rolls in. Too often, weather just turns out to just be a hassle -- it's visually cool the first time it rains or lightning appears, but after a while, it's just something that impedes your travel or how far you can see. We want changes in the environment to actually matter. And we want to encourage travel and exploration, and a good way to do that is not just to make regions visually different, but to make gameplay and tactics vary depending on where you are. Regions could be 'keyed', but not necessarily a 'hard key', where you have to have an item to enter an area, or a flag. 'Soft keying' means, sure, you can travel wherever you want, but if you aren't prepared for that region, it's quite possible that you aren't going to do nearly as well, and even in some cases, you could totally wipe if not properly prepared beforehand.
And you also shouldn't think of these environmental changes as always something negative. Perhaps you are going up against a boss mob that casts such nasty spells that you choose to silence the area -- in fact, if you don't, maybe it's virtually impossible to survive. It's like countering certain spells -- if you don't, and they go off, you and your group is done for. Another example would be storms... certain spells may be usable only if you are in a storm, or at least do much more damage if you are in a storm -- say, a 'call lightning' spell. This way, when a storm rolls in it doesn't just affect visuals, it actually affects gameplay and how you approach traveling through an area or which mobs you engage. What if there were a group of mobs that dropped some pretty nice gear, but their resists were so great that your casters were pretty much useless? So all that damage you need your wizard to do towards the end of combat? Pretty much neutralized. Unless, of course, something changed in the environment (again, using storms as an easy example). These mobs, while having high resistance to magic based spells, or even against other more commonly used spell families, may have a weakness, an Achilles' heel -- they are very susceptible to lightning based direct damage. So the world becomes a bit more dynamic, a little less groundhog day, and while you'd normally not engage these mobs because they were too hard to beat, if you happened to come across them during a storm, and if you had wisely learned and prepared your 'call lightning' spells, you would choose to take them on.
I don't think players want a truly dynamic world.... players want to be able to learn about a game and its world, to learn how to navigate through a dungeon, or what tactics to use against certain mobs. That knowledge is power -- how effective you are in-game isn't just the level of your character, the gear he has, the friends you are with... you also bring more to the table if you are familiar with an area and can guide your friends based on the knowledge you've obtained through trial and error. I think that's very important, and by no means would we want to diminish the importance of fore-knowledge and experience in an area. If the game changed all of the time, or routes into a dungeon were randomized, or if important encounters were always in a different location, that would be *too* dynamic.
But I also think players are tired of groundhog-day virtual worlds too, where everything is the same, no matter when you're there, who you are, what you've accomplished, what you are wearing, etc. One of our goals with Pantheon is to find the right middle ground between one extreme (unpredictable chaos) and the other extreme (this area and this encounter is always the same, and there is always one best way to overcome it). And one of the ways we want to achieve this middle ground is to make the environment itself something you have to contend with, and to have that environment change. Sometimes the change will be random, sometimes it will be controllable to a degree. Sometimes the player or the NPC may trigger something that changes the environment. Sometimes you'll be doing a quest, and completing a task will change the environment. Sometimes the time of day may make a difference. Sometimes there could be a special day which causes the environment to be a bit different. Sometimes the differences will be felt directly, like an area that is very hot or very cold, or an area where a storm has rolled in. Sometimes the difference could be the actual population of a region -- something triggered an event that caused the population of a zone or an area to radically change -- I often bring up examples where, occasionally, the storm giants invade the hill giant outpost... those players who are paying attention can reach the outpost in time to fight mobs that only spawn during that event (and who de-spawn when the event is over), and who drop items only obtainable during such an event.
Anyway, I am rambling, but as you can see, I'm really excited about this 'engage the world' tenant, the idea that the environment means more than just mobs, and how we can make MMO worlds more dynamic and interesting and changing without plunging them into totally unpredictable chaos. And yes, having the right gear and spells and even skills to help you deal with these environments and atmospheres will definitely affect how well you are able to survive, deal with, and even prevail when the environment *does* change.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
My point is, Pantheons system without crafting and trading still is a core system, but trading and crafting without the combat system is a completely different game, hence the SIMS Online remark and why SWG is an apples to oranges example as it was predominately a crafting/trading focused game, not a combat oriented one that centered around social reliance to succeed.
Anyway, one thing I do think we'll try to do with Pantheon's crafting system is have crafting products typically be very different than dropped items. I don't like MMOs where crafting products compete with dropped items. Either dropped items tend to be better, and then people don't have an incentive to craft, or the opposite, with crafting products being superior to dropped, which of course causes other issues.
So our basic thinking is that both crafting products and dropped items need to be very valuable and sought after, but that that they typically shouldn't compete with each other. It's very important that we are able to launch an expansion with new boss mobs, new exotic and rare loot, and new quests without obsoleting crafting. It's also very important that we are able to add to the items crafters can create without having to worry about obsoleting significant encounters, popular quests, or even entire dungeons, etc. That means they need to be different, perhaps fundamentally different.
Thoughts?
Only thing i would add, you can always add an item slot that only crafters can make items for, as well as an item slot that you can only get dropped items for. Lets say a "charm" slot that only crafters can make charms for example. This is a very simple thing, but it makes it not overpowered one side or the other, and gives some items you can only get via drops, and some only via crafting. Versus *all* items via one way or the other. That's probably not said as well as it could of been, but i think you get my point.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
My point is, Pantheons system without crafting and trading still is a core system, but trading and crafting without the combat system is a completely different game, hence the SIMS Online remark and why SWG is an apples to oranges example as it was predominately a crafting/trading focused game, not a combat oriented one that centered around social reliance to succeed.
Anyway, one thing I do think we'll try to do with Pantheon's crafting system is have crafting products typically be very different than dropped items. I don't like MMOs where crafting products compete with dropped items. Either dropped items tend to be better, and then people don't have an incentive to craft, or the opposite, with crafting products being superior to dropped, which of course causes other issues.
So our basic thinking is that both crafting products and dropped items need to be very valuable and sought after, but that that they typically shouldn't compete with each other. It's very important that we are able to launch an expansion with new boss mobs, new exotic and rare loot, and new quests without obsoleting crafting. It's also very important that we are able to add to the items crafters can create without having to worry about obsoleting significant encounters, popular quests, or even entire dungeons, etc. That means they need to be different, perhaps fundamentally different.
Thoughts?
Only thing i would add, you can always add an item slot that only crafters can make items for, as well as an item slot that you can only get dropped items for. Lets say a "charm" slot that only crafters can make charms for example. This is a very simple thing, but it makes it not overpowered one side or the other, and gives some items you can only get via drops, and some only via crafting. Versus *all* items via one way or the other. That's probably not said as well as it could of been, but i think you get my point.
I agree. There could be some slots where the only types of items you could put there were crafted. The majority would still have to be slots that could be equipped with any item, dropped or crafted, though. So I think 1-2 slots for charms or what have you would help keep crafting viable, but I don't think in the long term that would be enough. I really think we'll have to make a distinction between products and drops as well.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
[...] Crafting and the products made by crafting could be extremely important, yet independent enough from drops and quest rewards and the buffs and spells from other classes such that we could avoid the hassle of trying to keep products and loot 'balanced'.
[Crafters and raiders] don't have to work against each other as long as the raid loot and the crafted items don't overlap. If you can craft a sword of fire +4 but loot a sword of fire+5 or vice versa, they definitely work against each other. If you can craft but not loot a sword +5 and loot but not craft a rune of fire then you can have both systems working together. Also, raiders could need potions, food, arrows, sharpening stones etc. etc. made exclusively by crafters and crafters could need dragon blood, unicorn horns etc. only provided by raiders.
In short, let the raiding and the crafting systems work together, not against each other.
In that example: a weaponsmith creates the base weapon, the raider finds the components needed to enchant/enhance the weapon and possibly an enchanter is needed to imbue the weapon. There are certainly other ways to go about creating similar interdependencies between different crafters and between crafters and PvEers.
As others pointed out in that thread, item decay might be a good addition to a system like this.
I am on the fence with the potion idea. I can see its uses, but then I get this horrible image of Diablo style play where you are spamming potions in play.
One of these threads, I think it was the appearance item thread, Dullhan had brought up the idea of augments to slightly change the appearance of gear and with your mention of wanting crafting and adventure equipment to be separate, not better than one or the other, I got to thinking about that kind of approach.
Make another layer or element of layer to each gear slot which will be for crafting enhancement. Lets take a breast plate for example. There are numerous ways to design such, but we will stick with a simple edition, such as a basic breast plate design as the adventure drop, and the crafting portion would be the edition of a shoulder plate on one side for example (tasteful, not WoW like). That edition would allow you to upgrade the gear some, giving special benefits in any area you see fit and considering the depth of environment systems you are considering, the sky would be the limit here.
What this would do is separate the competition between each. That is, dropped gear drives the game and crafting enhances that drop, making it even better, but never replacing it alone. This also retains the reward for finding gear in the game and it can be worked in to allow players to have limited effect on the appearance of their items as well. That is, the core dropped gear drives the style and look, but the crafted editions accent it (never covering up or replacing), keeping the unique look that drop provided.
What I am thinking of is things like, each gear drop (or you could do it as an overlay for each equipment item) has a crafting element to it that can be used to enhance the gear item. As I mentioned, the BP could have a shoulder plate edition, a crest, or even it could be a sash, bandoleer, etc... that would have stats or some function that enhances the existing drop. The same could be done in different ways for different slots. Another example is a sheath strap for a dagger tied to the leg. This would be a crafted enhancement, special to that slot and it would provide various enchantments be it simplistic or complex, this would have to be crunched. Jewelry slots could allow for adding gems or similar editions to enhance an item or the like. A weapon could have a new pommel added with magical enchantment or a new blade guard that has offensive capabilities (maybe offensive spikes that provide bleed damage on a parry or riposte?).
The nice thing about this is that you don't have to allow every gear item to have crafting either. So, if you make some epic looking and amazing item that has all the bells an whistles, design it and its crafted portion default to the loot tables and allow no adjustments to it. This gives you control on some special items, but on other general items, you can allow players to adjust.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be... basic gear able to be crafted by a player, but it shouldn't compete with the dropped gear. What this basic gear should be for is a corpse retrieval temp set some throws in the bank or a basic item to put into an empty slot that while not amazing or anything, does give some protection or basic use. Also, these general items can be used for crafting leveling and the like or what have you.
In the end, this may be an idea that falls in line with what you are looking for. That is, both adventure and crafting working together to produce results, but neither invalidating the other. I am sure there would some serious brainstorming on how to implement it, balance it in terms of content progression, etc... but it could be a possible solution.
If anything, I hope it at least maybe sparks some ideas for you guys.
My point is, Pantheons system without crafting and trading still is a core system, but trading and crafting without the combat system is a completely different game, hence the SIMS Online remark and why SWG is an apples to oranges example as it was predominately a crafting/trading focused game, not a combat oriented one that centered around social reliance to succeed.
Anyway, one thing I do think we'll try to do with Pantheon's crafting system is have crafting products typically be very different than dropped items. I don't like MMOs where crafting products compete with dropped items. Either dropped items tend to be better, and then people don't have an incentive to craft, or the opposite, with crafting products being superior to dropped, which of course causes other issues.
So our basic thinking is that both crafting products and dropped items need to be very valuable and sought after, but that that they typically shouldn't compete with each other. It's very important that we are able to launch an expansion with new boss mobs, new exotic and rare loot, and new quests without obsoleting crafting. It's also very important that we are able to add to the items crafters can create without having to worry about obsoleting significant encounters, popular quests, or even entire dungeons, etc. That means they need to be different, perhaps fundamentally different.
Thoughts?
Only thing i would add, you can always add an item slot that only crafters can make items for, as well as an item slot that you can only get dropped items for. Lets say a "charm" slot that only crafters can make charms for example. This is a very simple thing, but it makes it not overpowered one side or the other, and gives some items you can only get via drops, and some only via crafting. Versus *all* items via one way or the other. That's probably not said as well as it could of been, but i think you get my point.
I agree. There could be some slots where the only types of items you could put there were crafted. The majority would still have to be slots that could be equipped with any item, dropped or crafted, though. So I think 1-2 slots for charms or what have you would help keep crafting viable, but I don't think in the long term that would be enough. I really think we'll have to make a distinction between products and drops as well.
Well, you can go two routes. Each item has a crafting enhancement slot, directly modifying the item, or... you can have the same crafting enhancement slot on each paper doll slot (chest, belt, helm, ring, etc....), but a separate item made from crafting that has its own states or modifiers. Chest would have a sash crafting slot, belt a buckle crafting slot, helm a visor, or ornament, etc...
Each present their own development and long term problems.
I like crafting skills where you can make "fun" items like things to help you breath under water, or give you better night vision or some kind of light source. Or something like in tinkering from EQ, you could make these remote control eye's that you could use to look into places without getting agro.
Other items might be keys to unlock chests, explosives to bust open doors or walls (if that is a feature of the game) ... levitation would be nice as well.
I always thought it would be kind of neat for games if they had an implant system for characters where you could "enhance" their body with non-gear type of stats or buffs, kind of like if there was a head (or eye) implant, that could give you infra vision or ultra vision. Leg implants could make you run faster or jump higher, maybe even climb. Arm implants might let you carry an extra item or items or attach a light source. Chest implants could give you underwater breathing or longer breath ... anyway .... things like that would be kind of fun for trade skill items.
Another thing that would be kind of fun would be items that would illuminate an area that would let you see things you wouldn't normally see... items, treasure, creatures, invisible enemies etc.
I also like cooking as a trade skill where it could give you buffs as well potion making. I just don't really like combat where you have to rely on chugging potions, but that's just a personal preference.
Im really digging this thread too. And I like the ideas im reading. And now Ill bring in the not always popular XI perspective. Ive said it in several threads now. Various items through various methods for various slots per mana type/class/environment.
What I mean is this: Class A gets best fire weapon from a raid. Class B gets it from an epic quest. And class C gets it from Crafting. And thats just one element and maybe even 1 mana color. So you see if you continue this direction you end up with a loy of oppertunities for situatuonal gear and a non-linear gear approach. Thats not to say XI didnt have gear sets. But in my case my best in slot items were about 50% raid gear, the other 50% was divided between crafted and quested items.
My point is, Pantheons system without crafting and trading still is a core system, but trading and crafting without the combat system is a completely different game, hence the SIMS Online remark and why SWG is an apples to oranges example as it was predominately a crafting/trading focused game, not a combat oriented one that centered around social reliance to succeed.
Anyway, one thing I do think we'll try to do with Pantheon's crafting system is have crafting products typically be very different than dropped items. I don't like MMOs where crafting products compete with dropped items. Either dropped items tend to be better, and then people don't have an incentive to craft, or the opposite, with crafting products being superior to dropped, which of course causes other issues.
So our basic thinking is that both crafting products and dropped items need to be very valuable and sought after, but that that they typically shouldn't compete with each other. It's very important that we are able to launch an expansion with new boss mobs, new exotic and rare loot, and new quests without obsoleting crafting. It's also very important that we are able to add to the items crafters can create without having to worry about obsoleting significant encounters, popular quests, or even entire dungeons, etc. That means they need to be different, perhaps fundamentally different.
Thoughts?
Only thing i would add, you can always add an item slot that only crafters can make items for, as well as an item slot that you can only get dropped items for. Lets say a "charm" slot that only crafters can make charms for example. This is a very simple thing, but it makes it not overpowered one side or the other, and gives some items you can only get via drops, and some only via crafting. Versus *all* items via one way or the other. That's probably not said as well as it could of been, but i think you get my point.
I agree. There could be some slots where the only types of items you could put there were crafted. The majority would still have to be slots that could be equipped with any item, dropped or crafted, though. So I think 1-2 slots for charms or what have you would help keep crafting viable, but I don't think in the long term that would be enough. I really think we'll have to make a distinction between products and drops as well.
Well, you can go two routes. Each item has a crafting enhancement slot, directly modifying the item, or... you can have the same crafting enhancement slot on each paper doll slot (chest, belt, helm, ring, etc....), but a separate item made from crafting that has its own states or modifiers. Chest would have a sash crafting slot, belt a buckle crafting slot, helm a visor, or ornament, etc...
Each present their own development and long term problems.
Yes, as mentioned in other post, products could be item augments. I like that idea too.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
Only thing i would add, you can always add an item slot that only crafters can make items for, as well as an item slot that you can only get dropped items for. Lets say a "charm" slot that only crafters can make charms for example. This is a very simple thing, but it makes it not overpowered one side or the other, and gives some items you can only get via drops, and some only via crafting. Versus *all* items via one way or the other. That's probably not said as well as it could of been, but i think you get my point.
I agree. There could be some slots where the only types of items you could put there were crafted. The majority would still have to be slots that could be equipped with any item, dropped or crafted, though. So I think 1-2 slots for charms or what have you would help keep crafting viable, but I don't think in the long term that would be enough. I really think we'll have to make a distinction between products and drops as well.
I definitely agree. Unfortunately i don't have (all) the answers, but i definitely think its something that could help, and i've seen it work in other games pretty well. So, it could just be one stone in foundation, so to speak.
Another thing that could help, im not sure if there is any intention to have ways of buffing items, call it what you will, "gem slots" is a common one. But, you could make those only craftable as well. So, these are things you could use to fill in the gaps of your gear. I.e. maybe your particular setup is lacking in constitution, so you use these items that buff an item (not massively, maybe at 10% of the overall power of the base item) and if you slap enough constitution gems into your gear you can round it out a bit. Sorry my memory is not working right now, i know there have been lots of games that had stuff like this, but gem slots is the only thing thats coming to mind.
Edit: I guess it helps to read the rest of the thread before i reply. Seems someone already brought this up, "augments" is probably a better term.
Edit 2: We haven't really discussed dyes, etc. I'm on the fence about stuff like dyes because one of the things i liked about EQ was items having specific appearances, and being able to know what someone was using by how it looked. However, it was also annoying cus you could look extra stupid at times.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Btw, that's exactly the sort of thing we want to see happen in Pantheon -- we want a strong player-driven economy, so most items will *not* be bind-on-equip, no-trade, etc. Ideally, there's enough content throughout the levels that any one character could not 'collect them all' and end up getting all of the items they desire from the actual drop. I like the idea that you may find an item very useful to another character, class, race, etc. but not that useful to you, and you end up trading it to another player who has an item great for you, but perhaps not great for them. By having gear that is more specific, usable by certain classes, and by having enough content, this is doable. Also by having lots of situational gear, where one item isn't clearly the best for a given class/level in all situations, we hope to see lots of trading/buying/selling going on too. And then by not having global merchants/bazaars, we hope to add travel time and investment into the mix, where one item might be worth more in one part of the world than in another.
Hey Brad I agree with most everything you said except non-linked auction houses. How do you combat what happened in Vanguard where the players just chose one auction house to use and ignore the rest? It also funnels players around the popular auction house instead of spreading out over the whole world.
Why not just delete auction houses and let the players decide where trade happens, aka EC tunnel?
(1) Consumables cannot be a burden placed on only one class. E.g., in Everquest many people demanded clerics foot the gem cost for casting symbols on the group. Unless they are trivial and low-cost to get, requiring a tank to purchase stoneskin potions with no similar requirement on others is unfair.
(2) If a consumable is mandatory, the mechanic is mostly useless. If mandatory, then everyone has it all the time, and everything is designed assuming you have it, and it is the same as if it didn't exist, except for the added time/money/effort-sink. Food and drink in Everquest were mandatory in order to regen. It took up pack space and was a minor money-sink. It was only a minor annoyance as it was easily purchasable and summonable.
Examples where I have considered implementation of consumables to be OK, but not too annoying:
(A) Raiding potions for WoW - Required when tackling difficult raid content, but not needed for normal grouping or once raids were on farm.
(B) Normal Food and Drink - As stated above, mandatory for regen in Everquest, but easy to get.
(C) Stat Food and Drink - Similar to raiding potions. They give a small boost, but unless doing cutting-edge content, not needed.
(D) Useful spells to extend up-time - E.g., a Diku/Merc MUD I played had staves for group sanctuary and heal wands. I farmed them between runs. They didn't enable us to kill "bigger" targets, as you always had people who could cast those spells. But they did allow for slightly longer runs. Casting sanctuary on everyone mid-run was mana-intensive, but using a staff meant you didn't have to end the run while casters were still at 15 to 50% mana. The heal wands allowed you to deplete the cleric's mana while still having some back-up heals and running out the DPS casters' mana. But they wouldn't allow continuing to run on an empty cleric for long. Here, the consumables were not mandatory, but beneficial. They also took some effort, but it was something that could be done solo during the forced downtime between forming groups.
Btw, that's exactly the sort of thing we want to see happen in Pantheon -- we want a strong player-driven economy, so most items will *not* be bind-on-equip, no-trade, etc. Ideally, there's enough content throughout the levels that any one character could not 'collect them all' and end up getting all of the items they desire from the actual drop. I like the idea that you may find an item very useful to another character, class, race, etc. but not that useful to you, and you end up trading it to another player who has an item great for you, but perhaps not great for them. By having gear that is more specific, usable by certain classes, and by having enough content, this is doable. Also by having lots of situational gear, where one item isn't clearly the best for a given class/level in all situations, we hope to see lots of trading/buying/selling going on too. And then by not having global merchants/bazaars, we hope to add travel time and investment into the mix, where one item might be worth more in one part of the world than in another.
Hey Brad I agree with most everything you said except non-linked auction houses. How do you combat what happened in Vanguard where the players just chose one auction house to use and ignore the rest? It also funnels players around the popular auction house instead of spreading out over the whole world.
Why not just delete auction houses and let the players decide where trade happens, aka EC tunnel?
Not a bad idea. We could drop down merchants in areas where trade happens, and move them if the trading area organically moves. Or we don't use traditional merchants, but do provide some sort of UI that helps the players in a specific area to buy/sell/trade.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
Btw, that's exactly the sort of thing we want to see happen in Pantheon -- we want a strong player-driven economy, so most items will *not* be bind-on-equip, no-trade, etc. Ideally, there's enough content throughout the levels that any one character could not 'collect them all' and end up getting all of the items they desire from the actual drop. I like the idea that you may find an item very useful to another character, class, race, etc. but not that useful to you, and you end up trading it to another player who has an item great for you, but perhaps not great for them. By having gear that is more specific, usable by certain classes, and by having enough content, this is doable. Also by having lots of situational gear, where one item isn't clearly the best for a given class/level in all situations, we hope to see lots of trading/buying/selling going on too. And then by not having global merchants/bazaars, we hope to add travel time and investment into the mix, where one item might be worth more in one part of the world than in another.
Hey Brad I agree with most everything you said except non-linked auction houses. How do you combat what happened in Vanguard where the players just chose one auction house to use and ignore the rest? It also funnels players around the popular auction house instead of spreading out over the whole world.
Why not just delete auction houses and let the players decide where trade happens, aka EC tunnel?
I understand people liking strictly player trading without auction houses or consignment type merchants, but I think you're going to lose people if that option is left out. It's just one of those game features that has become expected over the years after being spoiled by them in all the other games, especially for people who don't have tremendous amounts of time to dedicate to playing the game.
I remember in EQ, it took a lot of time out of the day to sit in the EC tunnel just to sell a couple of items and that takes away from regular game play time by a large amount. To me, sitting in one spot in the game to spam the same thing over and over all day is just not fun. I know many like that aspect, but I think there are others that will be completely turned off by it.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
I keep seeing this argument. The fact is, there were more adults playing EQ than there were children. My guild of around a 100 people were mostly 25-35, had professions, married, and families. The idea that these old features won't work because people don't have time is a falsehood.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
I keep seeing this argument. The fact is, there were more adults playing EQ than there were children. My guild of around a 100 people were mostly 25-35, had professions, married, and families. The idea that these old features won't work because people don't have time is a falsehood.
It's not just about not "having" the time. People can find time to play games.
But I have to prioritize my time, and when I'm sitting in one area of a zone spamming the same WTS/WTB text for hours at a time, I tend to think more about other ways I could better spend time in real life.. with family, getting some more work done, etc. If I'm spending time in a game having "fun" then I will be more likely to continue playing.
If buying/selling gear is one of the main ways to advance my character and it's not something I am able/willing to do, then I will not be playing.
There are better ways to spend the little time that I have and if I'm going to make time for playing video games, I don't want that time spent sitting in one spot spamming sales.
I understand people liking strictly player trading without auction houses or consignment type merchants, but I think you're going to lose people if that option is left out. It's just one of those game features that has become expected over the years after being spoiled by them in all the other games, especially for people who don't have tremendous amounts of time to dedicate to playing the game.
I remember in EQ, it took a lot of time out of the day to sit in the EC tunnel just to sell a couple of items and that takes away from regular game play time by a large amount. To me, sitting in one spot in the game to spam the same thing over and over all day is just not fun. I know many like that aspect, but I think there are others that will be completely turned off by it.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
Its important to consider that convenience like the auction house also eliminates trader gameplay. Pantheon, like any virtual world, isn't designed solely around what is convenient. People have come to expect a magical global auction house like they've come to expect being able to click a button and appear anywhere in the world.
If you design a game around what modern players expect, you are doomed to suffer the same fate as those games.
Always take a wait and see with any game Brad is involved with....I remember in Vanguard beta how great the game was supposed to be and how bad it really was.....It took a couple of years after launch to even get the game to a playable state.
I understand people liking strictly player trading without auction houses or consignment type merchants, but I think you're going to lose people if that option is left out. It's just one of those game features that has become expected over the years after being spoiled by them in all the other games, especially for people who don't have tremendous amounts of time to dedicate to playing the game.
I remember in EQ, it took a lot of time out of the day to sit in the EC tunnel just to sell a couple of items and that takes away from regular game play time by a large amount. To me, sitting in one spot in the game to spam the same thing over and over all day is just not fun. I know many like that aspect, but I think there are others that will be completely turned off by it.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
Its important to consider that convenience like the auction house also eliminates trader gameplay. Pantheon, like any virtual world, isn't designed solely around what is convenient. People have come to expect a magical global auction house like they've come to expect being able to click a button and appear anywhere in the world.
If you design a game around what modern players expect, you are doomed to suffer the same fate as those games.
I understand not wanting to get rid of all of the inconveniences... that is a big part of what makes a game, but to me, the lack of an auction house is just one of those game breaking issues.
I don't mind having to run long distances to get places or having to run out to a dungeon and look for a group there (I liked that a whole lot better than dungeon finders). I don't mind waiting for boats or death penalties or corpse runs. When I'm doing those things I feel like I am playing the game, but when I have to sit for hours in one spot doing nothing but posting and reading trade chat, it becomes not fun anymore.
What I wouldn't mind though, is having both feasible. If the auction house was only available on a couple days a week, that wouldn't be so bad and it would also make people want to gather in a trading area the rest of the days.
I guess I have been spoiled, but I don't think I could play a game with no auction house functionality whatsoever.
I understand not wanting to get rid of all of the inconveniences... that is a big part of what makes a game, but to me, the lack of an auction house is just one of those game breaking issues.
I don't mind having to run long distances to get places or having to run out to a dungeon and look for a group there (I liked that a whole lot better than dungeon finders). I don't mind waiting for boats or death penalties or corpse runs. When I'm doing those things I feel like I am playing the game, but when I have to sit for hours in one spot doing nothing but posting and reading trade chat, it becomes not fun anymore.
What I wouldn't mind though, is having both feasible. If the auction house was only available on a couple days a week, that wouldn't be so bad and it would also make people want to gather in a trading area the rest of the days.
I guess I have been spoiled, but I don't think I could play a game with no auction house functionality whatsoever.
I think you could actually have an AH of some sort. You simply slap a big tax on players the same way a consignment shop would charge a fee for selling items. The larger the area you want to sell to, the higher the fee. That will mean paying at least 40% of the profit to sell an item, not including the listing fee.
Players who like to trade however, could make good money doing it the old fashioned way.
I dont mind player shops as long as I can log off the character that set up the shop and play another character on that account, or even log off completely.
Once the player shop has sold everything, the character running the shop can be logged off.
If I have to keep the game running just so I can sell stuff I'd much, much, much rather have an auction house, local or continental or global, whatever.
Players only using one auction house if they're local isnt really a problem, is it ? Thats just knowing your audience.
All in all I dont really play roleplaying games to be a merchant. I like being able to craft items, but selling and buying is a hassle or an evil necessity.
I understand people liking strictly player trading without auction houses or consignment type merchants, but I think you're going to lose people if that option is left out. It's just one of those game features that has become expected over the years after being spoiled by them in all the other games, especially for people who don't have tremendous amounts of time to dedicate to playing the game.
I remember in EQ, it took a lot of time out of the day to sit in the EC tunnel just to sell a couple of items and that takes away from regular game play time by a large amount. To me, sitting in one spot in the game to spam the same thing over and over all day is just not fun. I know many like that aspect, but I think there are others that will be completely turned off by it.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
Its important to consider that convenience like the auction house also eliminates trader gameplay. Pantheon, like any virtual world, isn't designed solely around what is convenient. People have come to expect a magical global auction house like they've come to expect being able to click a button and appear anywhere in the world.
If you design a game around what modern players expect, you are doomed to suffer the same fate as those games.
Exactly! We have to consider every aspect of the game as form of game play with pros/cons, risk(effort)/reward. Trading is no different. Having to put effort into the trading creates opportunities for those who are willing to work for a result. This will effect how people sell and the effort they put into it for the return. Some may choose to forego the activity because it is too much of an effort, while others may spend most of their time doing it. Me personally, I can't stand trading for hours, I would rather be adventuring so I usually end up passing off my items to friends in need, or tossing it to some new player. I am not a big fan of buying my way through the game, even if it is with game money, but that is just me.
I dont mind player shops as long as I can log off the character that set up the shop and play another character on that account, or even log off completely.
Once the player shop has sold everything, the character running the shop can be logged off.
If I have to keep the game running just so I can sell stuff I'd much, much, much rather have an auction house, local or continental or global, whatever.
Players only using one auction house if they're local isnt really a problem, is it ? Thats just knowing your audience.
All in all I dont really play roleplaying games to be a merchant. I like being able to craft items, but selling and buying is a hassle or an evil necessity.
There really is no way to avoid this, as someone can just buy a second account, but I really would like to see them not cater to these types of conveniences. Convenience with the AH game leads to it becoming a fast money gimmick for every player. In the early days, people had to put effort to become wealthy in the trade game while these days, every type of convenience is afforded the player through automated systems, easy storage, etc...
As for your point.. "All in all I don't really play roleplaying games to be a merchant.", that is the thing, if people don't like to do it, don't want to put the time to it, should they really be catered to when there are people who do play the games for that style of play? Everything should be a weight of time and effort as such systems is what creates the benefit of any selection of focus. It is why I also hope that Pantheon contains many skills that only level through play (as they did in EQ and how UO had them as well). The reason for such is because it also puts a balance of benefit on those who would choose to adventure. In that way, they guy that masters trade and becomes excessively rich maybe be able to buy their gear, but they still have to spend the time and effort to increase skills. It is a nice pro/con effort/reward system.
Comments
And you also shouldn't think of these environmental changes as always something negative. Perhaps you are going up against a boss mob that casts such nasty spells that you choose to silence the area -- in fact, if you don't, maybe it's virtually impossible to survive. It's like countering certain spells -- if you don't, and they go off, you and your group is done for. Another example would be storms... certain spells may be usable only if you are in a storm, or at least do much more damage if you are in a storm -- say, a 'call lightning' spell. This way, when a storm rolls in it doesn't just affect visuals, it actually affects gameplay and how you approach traveling through an area or which mobs you engage. What if there were a group of mobs that dropped some pretty nice gear, but their resists were so great that your casters were pretty much useless? So all that damage you need your wizard to do towards the end of combat? Pretty much neutralized. Unless, of course, something changed in the environment (again, using storms as an easy example). These mobs, while having high resistance to magic based spells, or even against other more commonly used spell families, may have a weakness, an Achilles' heel -- they are very susceptible to lightning based direct damage. So the world becomes a bit more dynamic, a little less groundhog day, and while you'd normally not engage these mobs because they were too hard to beat, if you happened to come across them during a storm, and if you had wisely learned and prepared your 'call lightning' spells, you would choose to take them on.
I don't think players want a truly dynamic world.... players want to be able to learn about a game and its world, to learn how to navigate through a dungeon, or what tactics to use against certain mobs. That knowledge is power -- how effective you are in-game isn't just the level of your character, the gear he has, the friends you are with... you also bring more to the table if you are familiar with an area and can guide your friends based on the knowledge you've obtained through trial and error. I think that's very important, and by no means would we want to diminish the importance of fore-knowledge and experience in an area. If the game changed all of the time, or routes into a dungeon were randomized, or if important encounters were always in a different location, that would be *too* dynamic.
But I also think players are tired of groundhog-day virtual worlds too, where everything is the same, no matter when you're there, who you are, what you've accomplished, what you are wearing, etc. One of our goals with Pantheon is to find the right middle ground between one extreme (unpredictable chaos) and the other extreme (this area and this encounter is always the same, and there is always one best way to overcome it). And one of the ways we want to achieve this middle ground is to make the environment itself something you have to contend with, and to have that environment change. Sometimes the change will be random, sometimes it will be controllable to a degree. Sometimes the player or the NPC may trigger something that changes the environment. Sometimes you'll be doing a quest, and completing a task will change the environment. Sometimes the time of day may make a difference. Sometimes there could be a special day which causes the environment to be a bit different. Sometimes the differences will be felt directly, like an area that is very hot or very cold, or an area where a storm has rolled in. Sometimes the difference could be the actual population of a region -- something triggered an event that caused the population of a zone or an area to radically change -- I often bring up examples where, occasionally, the storm giants invade the hill giant outpost... those players who are paying attention can reach the outpost in time to fight mobs that only spawn during that event (and who de-spawn when the event is over), and who drop items only obtainable during such an event.
Anyway, I am rambling, but as you can see, I'm really excited about this 'engage the world' tenant, the idea that the environment means more than just mobs, and how we can make MMO worlds more dynamic and interesting and changing without plunging them into totally unpredictable chaos. And yes, having the right gear and spells and even skills to help you deal with these environments and atmospheres will definitely affect how well you are able to survive, deal with, and even prevail when the environment *does* change.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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where this exact thing was discussed.
Example from page 2 that I think is in line with what you wrote:
In that example: a weaponsmith creates the base weapon, the raider finds the components needed to enchant/enhance the weapon and possibly an enchanter is needed to imbue the weapon. There are certainly other ways to go about creating similar interdependencies between different crafters and between crafters and PvEers.
As others pointed out in that thread, item decay might be a good addition to a system like this.
One of these threads, I think it was the appearance item thread, Dullhan had brought up the idea of augments to slightly change the appearance of gear and with your mention of wanting crafting and adventure equipment to be separate, not better than one or the other, I got to thinking about that kind of approach.
Make another layer or element of layer to each gear slot which will be for crafting enhancement. Lets take a breast plate for example. There are numerous ways to design such, but we will stick with a simple edition, such as a basic breast plate design as the adventure drop, and the crafting portion would be the edition of a shoulder plate on one side for example (tasteful, not WoW like). That edition would allow you to upgrade the gear some, giving special benefits in any area you see fit and considering the depth of environment systems you are considering, the sky would be the limit here.
What this would do is separate the competition between each. That is, dropped gear drives the game and crafting enhances that drop, making it even better, but never replacing it alone. This also retains the reward for finding gear in the game and it can be worked in to allow players to have limited effect on the appearance of their items as well. That is, the core dropped gear drives the style and look, but the crafted editions accent it (never covering up or replacing), keeping the unique look that drop provided.
What I am thinking of is things like, each gear drop (or you could do it as an overlay for each equipment item) has a crafting element to it that can be used to enhance the gear item. As I mentioned, the BP could have a shoulder plate edition, a crest, or even it could be a sash, bandoleer, etc... that would have stats or some function that enhances the existing drop. The same could be done in different ways for different slots. Another example is a sheath strap for a dagger tied to the leg. This would be a crafted enhancement, special to that slot and it would provide various enchantments be it simplistic or complex, this would have to be crunched. Jewelry slots could allow for adding gems or similar editions to enhance an item or the like. A weapon could have a new pommel added with magical enchantment or a new blade guard that has offensive capabilities (maybe offensive spikes that provide bleed damage on a parry or riposte?).
The nice thing about this is that you don't have to allow every gear item to have crafting either. So, if you make some epic looking and amazing item that has all the bells an whistles, design it and its crafted portion default to the loot tables and allow no adjustments to it. This gives you control on some special items, but on other general items, you can allow players to adjust.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be... basic gear able to be crafted by a player, but it shouldn't compete with the dropped gear. What this basic gear should be for is a corpse retrieval temp set some throws in the bank or a basic item to put into an empty slot that while not amazing or anything, does give some protection or basic use. Also, these general items can be used for crafting leveling and the like or what have you.
In the end, this may be an idea that falls in line with what you are looking for. That is, both adventure and crafting working together to produce results, but neither invalidating the other. I am sure there would some serious brainstorming on how to implement it, balance it in terms of content progression, etc... but it could be a possible solution.
If anything, I hope it at least maybe sparks some ideas for you guys.
Each present their own development and long term problems.
Other items might be keys to unlock chests, explosives to bust open doors or walls (if that is a feature of the game) ... levitation would be nice as well.
I always thought it would be kind of neat for games if they had an implant system for characters where you could "enhance" their body with non-gear type of stats or buffs, kind of like if there was a head (or eye) implant, that could give you infra vision or ultra vision. Leg implants could make you run faster or jump higher, maybe even climb. Arm implants might let you carry an extra item or items or attach a light source. Chest implants could give you underwater breathing or longer breath ... anyway .... things like that would be kind of fun for trade skill items.
Another thing that would be kind of fun would be items that would illuminate an area that would let you see things you wouldn't normally see... items, treasure, creatures, invisible enemies etc.
I also like cooking as a trade skill where it could give you buffs as well potion making. I just don't really like combat where you have to rely on chugging potions, but that's just a personal preference.
What I mean is this: Class A gets best fire weapon from a raid. Class B gets it from an epic quest. And class C gets it from Crafting. And thats just one element and maybe even 1 mana color. So you see if you continue this direction you end up with a loy of oppertunities for situatuonal gear and a non-linear gear approach. Thats not to say XI didnt have gear sets. But in my case my best in slot items were about 50% raid gear, the other 50% was divided between crafted and quested items.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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Another thing that could help, im not sure if there is any intention to have ways of buffing items, call it what you will, "gem slots" is a common one. But, you could make those only craftable as well. So, these are things you could use to fill in the gaps of your gear. I.e. maybe your particular setup is lacking in constitution, so you use these items that buff an item (not massively, maybe at 10% of the overall power of the base item) and if you slap enough constitution gems into your gear you can round it out a bit. Sorry my memory is not working right now, i know there have been lots of games that had stuff like this, but gem slots is the only thing thats coming to mind.
Edit: I guess it helps to read the rest of the thread before i reply. Seems someone already brought this up, "augments" is probably a better term.
Edit 2: We haven't really discussed dyes, etc. I'm on the fence about stuff like dyes because one of the things i liked about EQ was items having specific appearances, and being able to know what someone was using by how it looked. However, it was also annoying cus you could look extra stupid at times.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Why not just delete auction houses and let the players decide where trade happens, aka EC tunnel?
Is Pantheon's skill system aiming for an 'everyone-does-everything' type of system? The last few responses seem to indicate that.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Consumables
(1) Consumables cannot be a burden placed on only one class. E.g., in Everquest many people demanded clerics foot the gem cost for casting symbols on the group. Unless they are trivial and low-cost to get, requiring a tank to purchase stoneskin potions with no similar requirement on others is unfair.
(2) If a consumable is mandatory, the mechanic is mostly useless. If mandatory, then everyone has it all the time, and everything is designed assuming you have it, and it is the same as if it didn't exist, except for the added time/money/effort-sink. Food and drink in Everquest were mandatory in order to regen. It took up pack space and was a minor money-sink. It was only a minor annoyance as it was easily purchasable and summonable.
Examples where I have considered implementation of consumables to be OK, but not too annoying:
(A) Raiding potions for WoW - Required when tackling difficult raid content, but not needed for normal grouping or once raids were on farm.
(B) Normal Food and Drink - As stated above, mandatory for regen in Everquest, but easy to get.
(C) Stat Food and Drink - Similar to raiding potions. They give a small boost, but unless doing cutting-edge content, not needed.
(D) Useful spells to extend up-time - E.g., a Diku/Merc MUD I played had staves for group sanctuary and heal wands. I farmed them between runs. They didn't enable us to kill "bigger" targets, as you always had people who could cast those spells. But they did allow for slightly longer runs. Casting sanctuary on everyone mid-run was mana-intensive, but using a staff meant you didn't have to end the run while casters were still at 15 to 50% mana. The heal wands allowed you to deplete the cleric's mana while still having some back-up heals and running out the DPS casters' mana. But they wouldn't allow continuing to run on an empty cleric for long. Here, the consumables were not mandatory, but beneficial. They also took some effort, but it was something that could be done solo during the forced downtime between forming groups.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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I remember in EQ, it took a lot of time out of the day to sit in the EC tunnel just to sell a couple of items and that takes away from regular game play time by a large amount. To me, sitting in one spot in the game to spam the same thing over and over all day is just not fun. I know many like that aspect, but I think there are others that will be completely turned off by it.
I think a lot of the audience will be older players that used to like everquest type of games, but many of those players are older now with more responsibilities and just don't have the same amount of time to dedicate like they did before, especially to just sit in one spot and type the same thing repetitively.
But I have to prioritize my time, and when I'm sitting in one area of a zone spamming the same WTS/WTB text for hours at a time, I tend to think more about other ways I could better spend time in real life.. with family, getting some more work done, etc. If I'm spending time in a game having "fun" then I will be more likely to continue playing.
If buying/selling gear is one of the main ways to advance my character and it's not something I am able/willing to do, then I will not be playing.
There are better ways to spend the little time that I have and if I'm going to make time for playing video games, I don't want that time spent sitting in one spot spamming sales.
If you design a game around what modern players expect, you are doomed to suffer the same fate as those games.
I don't mind having to run long distances to get places or having to run out to a dungeon and look for a group there (I liked that a whole lot better than dungeon finders). I don't mind waiting for boats or death penalties or corpse runs. When I'm doing those things I feel like I am playing the game, but when I have to sit for hours in one spot doing nothing but posting and reading trade chat, it becomes not fun anymore.
What I wouldn't mind though, is having both feasible. If the auction house was only available on a couple days a week, that wouldn't be so bad and it would also make people want to gather in a trading area the rest of the days.
I guess I have been spoiled, but I don't think I could play a game with no auction house functionality whatsoever.
Players who like to trade however, could make good money doing it the old fashioned way.
Once the player shop has sold everything, the character running the shop can be logged off.
If I have to keep the game running just so I can sell stuff I'd much, much, much rather have an auction house, local or continental or global, whatever.
Players only using one auction house if they're local isnt really a problem, is it ? Thats just knowing your audience.
All in all I dont really play roleplaying games to be a merchant. I like being able to craft items, but selling and buying is a hassle or an evil necessity.
As for your point.. "All in all I don't really play roleplaying games to be a merchant.", that is the thing, if people don't like to do it, don't want to put the time to it, should they really be catered to when there are people who do play the games for that style of play? Everything should be a weight of time and effort as such systems is what creates the benefit of any selection of focus. It is why I also hope that Pantheon contains many skills that only level through play (as they did in EQ and how UO had them as well). The reason for such is because it also puts a balance of benefit on those who would choose to adventure. In that way, they guy that masters trade and becomes excessively rich maybe be able to buy their gear, but they still have to spend the time and effort to increase skills. It is a nice pro/con effort/reward system.