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Environment based character development
Sinist
Member RarePosts: 1,369
In most traditional character development games, the character development centers around the character itself. That is, if running is a skill, the player runs, gets better at (23) and becomes a better runner. This form of skill based development is used in many systems. The point is, regardless of the skill be it crafting, running, defense, etc... the development of the skill is specifically tied to the character and that character carries that skill wherever they go.
One of the limitations of such an approach is that some skills, once they reach a given level, they become a massive issue of inflation and some reach a cap where they are no longer practical to increase (run speed). I get better at dodge (100) and my opponent gets better at accuracy (120) and we rinse and repeat this process over and over. It isn't a bad thing, it is the nature of the beast and it is the point of play to continue such progression, it really doesn't matter that the numbers are 1 of 10 or 1000 of 10000, it is still the same process of progressing skills to overcome the next obstacle level.
What if the skill was not tied to the character entirely, but contingent on the environment? For instance, what if zones had skills? Bare with me a moment...
When we travel to a given area in the real world, there are many skills tired to an area that are also driven by a core skill we have. For instance, we may have an intuitive ability to discern geography, a certain level of direction sense that allows us to more easily associate space and reference. Even so, with each location, there is a certain level of skill applied to understanding that given area itself that can not be translated to another different type of area. So, in essence, there are sub skills learned based on our environment or situation. Lets put this into play with an example.
Lets take run speed. Running is a basic act, in itself it is merely the process of putting one foot in front of the other very quickly (simplicity is on purpose). So, your skill at being able to run is generally that base knowledge. Now... insert environment.
Being able to run fast does not mean you are good at running anywhere. Running a race on pavement is completely different than having to run through mountainous terrain. It takes different knowledge and understanding as well as lots of training to achieve. So, while I may be a good running (50/100) in general on something like pavement or flat even grass, I may be horrible at running on mountain trails in Stone Brunt Mountains (10/100).
This adds additional layers of game play development for the character and it allows developers to with each zone they add, create its own character development system that is either entirely separate or specifically related to the characters skills. The possibilities are endless and this creates a continued level of "side based" development that is infinite because each form of progression is specific to the zone the person is in.
For instance, snow is tough to walk in, even harder to run in. What if... lets say that by not being native to Everfrost for example, your movement speed is reduced by... 30% or more because your Everfrost environment skills: Snow Travel is low (1/100), but as you get better at it (20/100), your movement speed increases and eventually, maybe by reaching cap, you can even move a tad faster on foot than normal (maybe a 10% increase on foot, in addition to a spell cast on you).
Now translate this to another approach. Everfrost has a biting cold, and that cold has a very harsh effect on the player. It slows their ability to act fast which reduces the ability to dodge, to swing at a normal speed, etc..., and may bring about hypothermia which impedes some healing effects (no heal over times or regen gear). Lets say there is a raid boss in the zone, a winter drake that spews cold based attacks that can freeze people instantly depending on their ability to resist. That ability to resist could be a combination of both basic stats (resist cold) and that of environment specific skills of the Everfrost: Balance, run speed, cold endurance, etc... all specific to that zone.
Lets say that in order to have a fair chance at defeating that drake, you are going to have to have people who are experienced and hardened to the environment to succeed. Just simply having "resist" gear that you bought off someone or picked up in another zone isn't likely going to do it. You are going to need skills, skills that pertain to the environment, skills that the natives have developed, to which you will need to learn and become accustomed to over time and effort while you are within that environment.
The benefit of such a design is powerful. It removes the linear progression that often taxes a development team and brings longevity to a given zone. It treats each zone as its own unique development game for the character.
These skills would have to be first obtained with knowledge from the local natives, or from tomes or sages who can give you a start, then... the player would have to spend time in the zone grouping, exploring, fighting, etc.... experiencing it to raise the skills related to that zone. This in combination with the general character development will create a very rich system making each and every zone within the game a meaningful and sought after experience.
Layers... upon... Layers...
One of the limitations of such an approach is that some skills, once they reach a given level, they become a massive issue of inflation and some reach a cap where they are no longer practical to increase (run speed). I get better at dodge (100) and my opponent gets better at accuracy (120) and we rinse and repeat this process over and over. It isn't a bad thing, it is the nature of the beast and it is the point of play to continue such progression, it really doesn't matter that the numbers are 1 of 10 or 1000 of 10000, it is still the same process of progressing skills to overcome the next obstacle level.
What if the skill was not tied to the character entirely, but contingent on the environment? For instance, what if zones had skills? Bare with me a moment...
When we travel to a given area in the real world, there are many skills tired to an area that are also driven by a core skill we have. For instance, we may have an intuitive ability to discern geography, a certain level of direction sense that allows us to more easily associate space and reference. Even so, with each location, there is a certain level of skill applied to understanding that given area itself that can not be translated to another different type of area. So, in essence, there are sub skills learned based on our environment or situation. Lets put this into play with an example.
Lets take run speed. Running is a basic act, in itself it is merely the process of putting one foot in front of the other very quickly (simplicity is on purpose). So, your skill at being able to run is generally that base knowledge. Now... insert environment.
Being able to run fast does not mean you are good at running anywhere. Running a race on pavement is completely different than having to run through mountainous terrain. It takes different knowledge and understanding as well as lots of training to achieve. So, while I may be a good running (50/100) in general on something like pavement or flat even grass, I may be horrible at running on mountain trails in Stone Brunt Mountains (10/100).
This adds additional layers of game play development for the character and it allows developers to with each zone they add, create its own character development system that is either entirely separate or specifically related to the characters skills. The possibilities are endless and this creates a continued level of "side based" development that is infinite because each form of progression is specific to the zone the person is in.
For instance, snow is tough to walk in, even harder to run in. What if... lets say that by not being native to Everfrost for example, your movement speed is reduced by... 30% or more because your Everfrost environment skills: Snow Travel is low (1/100), but as you get better at it (20/100), your movement speed increases and eventually, maybe by reaching cap, you can even move a tad faster on foot than normal (maybe a 10% increase on foot, in addition to a spell cast on you).
Now translate this to another approach. Everfrost has a biting cold, and that cold has a very harsh effect on the player. It slows their ability to act fast which reduces the ability to dodge, to swing at a normal speed, etc..., and may bring about hypothermia which impedes some healing effects (no heal over times or regen gear). Lets say there is a raid boss in the zone, a winter drake that spews cold based attacks that can freeze people instantly depending on their ability to resist. That ability to resist could be a combination of both basic stats (resist cold) and that of environment specific skills of the Everfrost: Balance, run speed, cold endurance, etc... all specific to that zone.
Lets say that in order to have a fair chance at defeating that drake, you are going to have to have people who are experienced and hardened to the environment to succeed. Just simply having "resist" gear that you bought off someone or picked up in another zone isn't likely going to do it. You are going to need skills, skills that pertain to the environment, skills that the natives have developed, to which you will need to learn and become accustomed to over time and effort while you are within that environment.
The benefit of such a design is powerful. It removes the linear progression that often taxes a development team and brings longevity to a given zone. It treats each zone as its own unique development game for the character.
These skills would have to be first obtained with knowledge from the local natives, or from tomes or sages who can give you a start, then... the player would have to spend time in the zone grouping, exploring, fighting, etc.... experiencing it to raise the skills related to that zone. This in combination with the general character development will create a very rich system making each and every zone within the game a meaningful and sought after experience.
Layers... upon... Layers...
Comments
Don't think just in terms of combat, or specific environment based skills as I mentioned, consider non-combat zone implementations of this idea. For instance, numerous diplomacy based skills could be required in order to buy/sell, interact, etc... This is a form of "faction" play, but instead of placing a simple faction number requirement, you can have layers of skills required to unlock or initiate dialog with multiple elements within those communities.
The benefit of having more than a simple faction skill is that you can compartmentalize progression within the content in a way that allows you to build and progress a mini-story or even skill lock a given progression of access and quest openings to content.
You could have gossip based skills for a zone, language based skills, barter, various forums of cultural and social etiquette, etc... all developed in various means through game play elements (what exactly would have to be determined as proper progression play systems, though some could be just from spending time listening to people chat in public in various areas).
Anyway, basically more on the idea of layering progression through sub element design.
Or, in other words - give us tons and tons of skills.
You would start with a main skill like running. Your base skill would determine your overall ability to run faster or further. A person with a 50 run skill is physically, mentally, and mechanically better at running than someone with a 20. In any given environment the 50 will always beat the 20 unless other modifiers are added in, sort of how the system works now.
Now add in your environmental training, be it snow, mud, hot weather, cold weather, rough terrain, mountainous terrain, etc. A person could have a base run skill of 20, showing that they aren't that great at running, but have an 80 in Terrain: Snow. It doesn't make them run any faster, but it doesn't slow them down as much because they are used to running in snow. It could even be enough that they could keep up with a 50/10 skilled person in that environment.
The main skill could even affect how quickly you can raise the subset skills. A naturally gifted runner could more easily adapt to different environments faster than a crappy runner.
Splattr is close to what I mean, but I am taking it further though making those skills specific not only to environment, but to the zone itself.
So depending on how different one mountain zone is from another, you may have different sub skills dependent on it.
The main point here is to create "zone specific" skills that are only relevant to that zones environment and won't be usable anywhere else.
That is, Mountain climbing is a general skill, but mountain climbing isn't the same in every place in the world, so each place would have a skill relevant to it. Just because you are good at climbing mountains in the icy climate of mount Everest doesn't mean you are skilled in climbing the sandy desert cliffs of another climate. The point is to give each zone its own development focus so that with new content, on top of standard linear character progression, there is always zone progression. While a character will eventually cap out, or get to the point where it is hard to keep increasing it (as I explained with run speed) a zone is always a fresh start from zero for its area.
Think of it this way:
Basic Character skills:
1. Running
2. Climbing
Zones:
Each zone has specific elements that require special knowledge and understanding. It can be avoiding dangers, understanding how to traverse areas more quickly, or knowing how to properly climb a type of rock (sandy rock vs shale like, etc....). So each zone would have its own special similar topics like the general, but specific to that type of environment.
Desert zone 001
----------------------
1. Running on sand
2. Climbing sand stone
Mountain zone 001
----------------------
1. Running on rocky trails
2. Climbing shale mountains
Ice zone 001
----------------------
1. Running on ice or snow
2. Climbing ice cliffs
Now obviously you would want to rename them, make them more specific to the exact environment and zone, add lore and reason for it, but the point is that skills are tied to the zone. This gives EVERY zone a progression development purpose. It creates reason for people to go to a zone, experience it and develop in it.
It also provides benefit for those who have spent time in a zone over someone who has not. It makes an Freeport born character actually different than a Qeynos one, more so than simply "That is where I started" as they will actually have zone specific skills over another who did not spend time there.
The benefit of this is that with each new content release, it is a large list of new progression.
So, lets say a new expansion is released and it has 20 new zones and they raise the character level. So not only do you have linear character level progression and the linear skills relevant to that (ie running, jumping, etc...), you also have AAs for side progression and every zone has its own set of skills specific to its progression.
The result is a massive amount of new content with long term progression with limited development requirements to implement.
Notice how in most games with development, we always start out as some "normal" base line and we improve from there? It is a traditional mechanic, you are the normal person you are in RL, and through training and effort, you progress, get better, and eventually become exceptional.
So in the terms of a scale, it is like a number line of -100 to 0 to +100. Most games start you at zero, but why? It is all development right? Why not start with negatives to your character? So, your development is not simply to become exceptional, but is to first overcome being inferior, then common and then exceptional.
The interesting thing about the -100 to 0 range is that it can provide for some very interesting implementation of various negative adjustment mechanics. So instead of dexterity and agility signifying exceptional ability only, it also contains inferior aspects as well. Is your dex/agility below normal? Well, you are clumsy, run into things a lot, trip and fall down, etc... Maybe... if you didn't put effort into increasing your dex you may occasionally while swinging that axe, hit a friendly. How about you are some big clumsy ogre and your party has to run. You are great swinging that tree trunk around indiscriminately, but not so good at trying to keep a fast pace up and often will trip over yourself, maybe even knocking half your party down in the process.
There are so many game play elements a negative system can provide that would seriously create some very memorable moments. It is not the wins we remember, it is the losses and recoveries that stick in our mind.
One problem here is that the system could not be linear scale if you want to keep it going. I mean, this would work well in a single game with a start and finish, but not so much in an MMO.
One solution would be to create an entire system that runs in tandem with the base system skills and attributes. Each level, exp, etc... you would have to put points or attention to your "negative" attributes to keep them from causing your character issues. Your points will be limited, so there will always be pros/cons in the system which means you will have to deal with negative occurrences in play. You could make it a component of ratio to the primary skills and attributes, an anti-skill so to speak that if the ratio gets too far out of balance, things happen, good if it is in favor of the good attributes, bad if it is in the favor of the anti-attributes.
Just random thoughts..
There is absolutely NONE, from a programming standpoint.
You can assign some philosophical stuff to that, but you can also just say skill 0 is what everyone would assume it is: you have NO SKILL WHATSOEVER in that skill, and the average person that has trained in that skill doesnt have skill 0, but some positive value.
Especially since the skill cap is usually something like 10*level, so the skill max in Vanguard was for example 500 for maxlevel 50, not skill 100. Which leads to the question, would the player then have to start at -500, despite the fact they can only get to +10 at level 1 ? And will they have to start at -550 when the maxlevel is raised to 55 ? Etc.
My point is that when we look at progression in RPGs (even back to early D&D), we start from the position of average, or "normal".
My mention of -100 to 0 to 100+ was simply to give a reference to how the concept of current gaming progression works. That is, most games start from a person who is "average", not "lacking" or "below average".
Part of that is that to make a game mechanic where the protagonist is handicapped from the start, well... it gets in the way of egos and emotional placating that most games today take.
The point of my mention was not to see you get hung up on numbers, but rather to show you the differences in the progression. Instead of a player starting at "normal" aka 0, why not start at -100 or -200. Make the player inept, lame, etc... and make the player have to work to overcome those negative aspects to excel, to have to weight the major negatives of a given play focus. That is, you may decide to design your character to be somewhat skilled intellectually, but overly inept physically.
Over time, you have the choice to develop ALL skills, but are limited to the focus you seek. That is, you may want to be ALL brains and NO Physical prowess, but in that selection, you chose a physical aptitude of someone with cerebral palsy, which means you may have the power to conjure up a horrific fireball, but lack the physical agility to hit a target with any accuracy.
This is my point. That is, to create a system where players have to decide on pros and cons to develop a character. With those choices, the player will be GREAT in some circumstances, but HORRIBLE in others. This is the beauty of true character progression and development game play.
You either have no training (skill 0) or some training (skill above 0), but how can you ever have negative training in a skill ? It doesnt make any sense and it doesnt add any new possibilities in respect to game mechanics.
Instead of saying you get penalties from -100 to 0 you can just as well add these penalties from 0 to 50.
Besides, my comments aren't a demand for Pantheon to do this, I am just spit balling ideas and that may lead to some other idea that the Team may get by reading this discussion.
Edit:
By the way, are you talking about UOs initial atrophy system? Or is this something they added later? The atrophy system in UO is not what I mean. It is a hint of it, but UOs system (since the last I played during Second Age) was much more simplistic as you could nearly max every skill with one maxing while another dropped a couple of points.
I use a generic example to explain the concept and then more specific points to explain how it could be implemented. That is why I mentioned a caster having to deal with choosing power in intellect, but foregoing that of physical ability.
In games today, everyone starts at "normal", no negatives, no cons to their character. From there, everything is positive focused in development. That is, nobody is inferior in anything, they are just not exceptional and in their character development, there is no real choice in development other than selecting the focus that you will excel at.
My point is that characters depending on race, lore, selected background, and class focus (among other things) will then have negative stats (as well as positive) that affect the characters performance to which the player will then have to develop with attention to such. That is, being inferior in a given ability due to your exceptionalism in another ability will create interesting game play situations and obstacles that a player will have to consider in play.
This isn't some brand new idea, it is a more active and continued implementation of concepts like balancing "perks" in games like Fallout 1/2 where a given positive aspect of enhancement may come with a negative to balance it out. It adds realism, and interesting elements of play.
You argued as if it were simply some arbitrary concept that is just an illusion and number play. It isn't, I think I have been clear in explaining that.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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I hope no one confuses this with ability bloat. PASSIVE is the big important word here, imo. All the passive skills in the world will never make a game feel like it has too many ABILITIES.
The more passive skills we have to progress/build into, the more unique our characters will feel, and the more we will feel like a part of the world we're playing in.
Kudos OP
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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Lots of abilities/skills/stances/spells/prayers. Many activated, many triggered (passive).
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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However it is possible to a BETTER job of game development by adding depth to systems.
An example would be say an avoidance skill.Sure maybe it caps out at 100 but what about variable avoidance skills?Example you are better at avoiding piercing damage than Blunt or any idea centering around that approach.
The op touched on this idea when mentions " i might be better at running on mountains than flat terrain than another player".Yes this is called depth and almost nobody is doing it.This is why i constantly grind about lazy cheap developers selling us rubbish game designs,they are just real lazy efforts.
@ the OP,i have basically been asking for this type of game design since i got a glimmer of it playing FFXI.It took hundreds of games and several years later i stumbled onto Gorgon.It was doing a few things along the same lines but again not quite good enough.
This is why when i see people praising or trying to tell me how great Skyforge or Sword coast legends is ,i really cringe and shake my head with disbelief.IDK maybe i should just start realizing that most people haven't got a clue what could be done to make a great game,they accept mediocrity or below average game designs.
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