Winter's Shadow: any chance to change motto?

arcundo

It is a focus in this game that one can play a character they way you want, solo, small group, siege, wield different weapons, change color on clothing etc. I think it would be nice if that would go for motto too.

In both Crowfall and this game I have seen classes that I would really like to change the motto for. In this case I would like to remove the last part at least for the Winter's Shadow. I do not know wether a viking has done that or not in history. But also vikings had certain diverisity within the culture.

Any chance it will the changed before release or will it be possible to a player to change it?

edit:
Link to motto:
http://camelotunchained.com/v2/class-reveal-archers/#

JamesGoblin

But...but...it's the best part??

arcundo

Vikings sure did other uncivilized things. But I think many of those things should not be in the game or tied to a class' backstory. A player should be able to write his or her backstory.

Also it seems to me that devs chose Vikings to the least civilized culture in the game. And it seems at the time that British had come longer in terms of philosophy and keeping a peaceful society, infrastructure, agriculture etc. But vikings are not just about smash and crazy fighting, but carving, jewelry, navigation, ship building (traveling to far distances and to places und rivers that was not supposed to be reached due to ships not needing to deep water to sail), trading (there are huge areas where vikings went were they were not known for fighting at all, just trading), diplomacy, storytelling/writing/poems etc. 

I too am fascinated about the fighting skills, the brute force etc. And of course that is the most important in a game like this. But players should have access to some of the rich culture too, and be allowed to stear away from most uncivilized things in terms of backstory at least.

(By the way a RTS-MMO would suite the viking theme very well...They plundered a lot for resources)

JamesGoblin

In recent Frost Giant story, the main character is a Viking poet. He shows his wide culture, knowledge and intelligence by competing in puzzles with the giant from the cave. And overall, devs seem to be very well aware of all sides of Viking society, including mythology. And including the dark side

If you don't like the motto, just pick the other class/race/Realm/whatever, the choice is really wide. And of course, the mottos are work in progress and can depend on feedback - you'd prefer them removed/softened and I'd prefer even less liberal and dark ones etc.

arcundo

Well, I want to be an archer and I do not want to fight Vikings. For me right now this a reason less to buy the game. A game that has many exciting ideas going.

I just do not see why the mottos can have a wide appeal, or be customized. Why is the abililty do wield all weapons, or change the color on gear ok, but change motto not?

JamesGoblin

arcundo said:

 Why is the abililty do wield all weapons, or change the color on gear ok, but change motto not?

Because motto determines and gives identity to the class/race, while random & customizable mottos make it pointless.

arcundo said:

I want to be an archer and I do not want to fight Vikings.

There is many games with many (or without) mottos where you can do what you like.

arcundo

JamesGoblin said:

arcundo said:

 Why is the abililty do wield all weapons, or change the color on gear ok, but change motto not?

Because motto determines and gives identity to the class/race, while random & customizable mottos make it pointless.

arcundo said:

I want to be an archer and I do not want to fight Vikings.

There is many games with many (or without) mottos where you can do what you like.

Color of clothing also gives identity...

 A dropdown for couple of mottos then (one moderate and one like the one that already is). Or keep going with variations of "smash" mottos.

I understand that this game is not for all. But why not limit sales numbers where it matters (like no pve etc.) and not by something that isnt gamebreaking like the motto? 

JamesGoblin

@MisterZebub the motto in question is "Sight true, shoot straight, and drink over the corpse." It belongs to the Viking archers class and the "drink..." part of it is what seems to annoy @arcundo

The more general theme is how much "lore" freedom one should have (for example, changing mottos or removing them etc.) The way I see it, too much customizability doesn't fit well with the game built around strong Realm pride and some other of CU's foundational principles.

The idea is not bad per se, just this is not the game for it.

MarkJacobs

arcundo said:

It is a focus in this game that one can play a character they way you want, solo, small group, siege, wield different weapons, change color on clothing etc. I think it would be nice if that would go for motto too.

In both Crowfall and this game I have seen classes that I would really like to change the motto for. In this case I would like to remove the last part at least for the Winter's Shadow. I do not know wether a viking has done that or not in history. But also vikings had certain diverisity within the culture.

Any chance it will the changed before release or will it be possible to a player to change it?

edit:
Link to motto:
http://camelotunchained.com/v2/class-reveal-archers/#

The motto might change, as the class evolves, but the class motto will be the class motto. That's how we view the classes, and their lore, and that's how it will be when we launch.

FYI, the Vikings in our game are intended to both represent certain aspects of Viking history, mythology, etc. as well as the post-apocalypse world. The portrayal of them is not meant to a true representation of the Vikings (which would be impossible even under the best circumstances since so much about them/times has been lost), but rather, one that is geared to this game's lore. And, the brother who started the Viking Realm, well, let's just say that he is an interesting fellow.

As to some of the other points in this discussion:

1) The Vikings are, in many ways, quite civilized, especially the Frost Giants. They may look all rough around the edges, but they are a lot more than that.

2) As to the lore not mattering, well, it actually does matter a lot to me. I want Camelot Unchained to build its own lore, world story, etc. and you can't do that by constantly changing things because some players would like it another way. The Foundational Principles, lore, backstory, etc. of this game is ours, what the players do with it afterward, is yours. 

3) As to the Winter's Shadow motto and the seemingly more bloody approach of the Vikings, well, I'll say two things: Vahalla and you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Our world is an TriRealm world that survived an extinction-level event and later, a shattering of its core existence. The three Realms are battling, in their own minds, for not just dominance in the world, but its survival. It's not truly "winner take all" but rather "winner save all" that drives them. Each Realm approaches that differently and that is part of the fun, but all of them believe that only their Realm, and its leader, can save the world.

FYI, I know our approach with some aspects of the game will annoy people. I said that before, during, and after the KS. I didn't say things like "I know we will piss off some people" lightly, for hype, or then to turn around and try to appease everybody. Our game truly isn't for everybody, we know and embrace that, now and forever. 

Thanks for thinking of us, hopefully you'll find the game itself to be compelling enough that you want to play it but if not, thanks again for considering it and checking it out, I do appreciate that, truly!

arcundo

MarkJacobs said:

The motto might change, as the class evolves, but the class motto will be the class motto. That's how we view the classes, and their lore, and that's how it will be when we launch.

FYI, the Vikings in our game are intended to both represent certain aspects of Viking history, mythology, etc. as well as the post-apocalypse world. The portrayal of them is not meant to a true representation of the Vikings (which would be impossible even under the best circumstances since so much about them/times has been lost), but rather, one that is geared to this game's lore. And, the brother who started the Viking Realm, well, let's just say that he is an interesting fellow.

As to some of the other points in this discussion:

1) The Vikings are, in many ways, quite civilized, especially the Frost Giants. They may look all rough around the edges, but they are a lot more than that.

2) As to the lore not mattering, well, it actually does matter a lot to me. I want Camelot Unchained to build its own lore, world story, etc. and you can't do that by constantly changing things because some players would like it another way. The Foundational Principles, lore, backstory, etc. of this game is ours, what the players do with it afterward, is yours. 

3) As to the Winter's Shadow motto and the seemingly more bloody approach of the Vikings, well, I'll say two things: Vahalla and you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Our world is an TriRealm world that survived an extinction-level event and later, a shattering of its core existence. The three Realms are battling, in their own minds, for not just dominance in the world, but its survival. It's not truly "winner take all" but rather "winner save all" that drives them. Each Realm approaches that differently and that is part of the fun, but all of them believe that only their Realm, and its leader, can save the world.

FYI, I know our approach with some aspects of the game will annoy people. I said that before, during, and after the KS. I didn't say things like "I know we will piss off some people" lightly, for hype, or then to turn around and try to appease everybody. Our game truly isn't for everybody, we know and embrace that, now and forever. 

Thanks for thinking of us, hopefully you'll find the game itself to be compelling enough that you want to play it but if not, thanks again for considering it and checking it out, I do appreciate that, truly!

First of all, thanks a lot for taking the time to both read and reply in this thread! To be honest I have seen you reply on this forum, so I was hoping for my view to be taken into consideration, but to reply is very kind.

1) Glad to hear as both you and JamesGoblin pointed out that thre are more civilized elements to viking characters.

2) I do not see who said that.  I at least, did not intend to say/write that lore is not mattering.The game is definately yours, I would just like to give some feedback to where I think the player's character start and I think motto/nack story is a part of the player character.  Wouldnt some roleplayers agree with me here?

3) Well, since I am Norwegian, I have some knowledge of course of Viking history and mythology from school, the media etc. :-) And I am not debating that vikings were not violent. The violent part fits this game very well. But vikings also liked a good fight, and from what I have learned at least they repected their enemies that fell in battle. Honor is a part of the viking culture too. Like I "said" earlier in this thread, there are plenty of uncivilized behaviour from vikings. And many things that seem very strange to us living in 2015 (as can been seen in the Vikings series) still they fit this game very well.

I would just like my character to have a little bit of repect. And it would then be just one character among many Viking archers. That will not affect the game to much. :-)

Yes, you could say I have checked this game out. :-) I have watched your videos on youtube (not all in full length). Pressed F5 a lot in these forums. MMORPGs with a PvP focus are few and far between. And since AoC GD talked about RTS in MMO I have been looking for that. Wouldnt it be cool if you could have Arathi Basin and actually get the resources and use them for building up your guild city and gearing up your guild mates?  AoC didnt go all the way when it came to RTS. But it sure had really cool sieging and since so many say DAoC was the best MMO-PvP game,  of course CU is a game that could be really good. Still I fear  yellow ducks will be ingame... ;-)

MarkJacobs

arcundo said:

MarkJacobs said:

<snip>
...
Thanks for thinking of us, hopefully you'll find the game itself to be compelling enough that you want to play it but if not, thanks again for considering it and checking it out, I do appreciate that, truly!

First of all, thanks a lot for taking the time to both read and reply in this thread! To be honest I have seen you reply on this forum, so I was hoping for my view to be taken into consideration, but to reply is very kind.

1) Glad to hear as both you and JamesGoblin pointed out that thre are more civilized elements to viking characters.

2) I do not see who said that.  I at least, did not intend to say/write that lore is not mattering.The game is definately yours, I would just like to give some feedback to where I think the player's character start and I think motto/nack story is a part of the player character.  Wouldnt some roleplayers agree with me here?

3) Well, since I am Norwegian, I have some knowledge of course of Viking history and mythology from school, the media etc. :-) And I am not debating that vikings were not violent. The violent part fits this game very well. But vikings also liked a good fight, and from what I have learned at least they repected their enemies that fell in battle. Honor is a part of the viking culture too. Like I "said" earlier in this thread, there are plenty of uncivilized behaviour from vikings. And many things that seem very strange to us living in 2015 (as can been seen in the Vikings series) still they fit this game very well.

I would just like my character to have a little bit of repect. And it would then be just one character among many Viking archers. That will not affect the game to much. :-)

Yes, you could say I have checked this game out. :-) I have watched your videos on youtube (not all in full length). Pressed F5 a lot in these forums. MMORPGs with a PvP focus are few and far between. And since AoC GD talked about RTS in MMO I have been looking for that. Wouldnt it be cool if you could have Arathi Basin and actually get the resources and use them for building up your guild city and gearing up your guild mates?  AoC didnt go all the way when it came to RTS. But it sure had really cool sieging and since so many say DAoC was the best MMO-PvP game,  of course CU is a game that could be really good. Still I fear  yellow ducks will be ingame... ;-)

First, you're more than welcome. I can't be everywhere, anytime, but I do try to pop by sites that cover us, as well as the occasional one that doesn't. As to your other points.

In terms of respect, between Realms and players, all for that. In my decades of playing PvP/RvR games, I liked to be known for that too. Back in the Air Warrior days, respect among competitors was a good thing to see, and frankly, I ate that kind of stuff up.  

As to yellow ducks, no, they will not be in the game. They are in the game now because they became associated with us/CU, but they will not be part of the Beta+. I love the ducks, mainly because of the awesome work by Sandra (one of our concept artists) but they don't belong in the Camelot Unchained universe that we are creating, and they will be exiting the build soon. 

In terms of the RTS elements, such as resources, they are already part of our design. The economy is almost 100% player-driven (can't be 100% simply because newbies need to start with something) so if your guild wants to build up their home/hall/whatever, they will have to acquire the resources. Same goes for crafting armor, weapons, etc. 

As the lore and the world of Camelot Unchained is developed/revealed, I think you'll be interested in how it evolves when it comes to the Vikings and the other Realms. Nothing is quite as clear or muddy, as it might seem at times. Lots more info is coming, and well, there's a bunch of interesting lore reveals, stories, etc. 

And thanks again for checking us out, especially as much as you have. 

/respect

arcundo

MarkJacobs said:

First, you're more than welcome. I can't be everywhere, anytime, but I do try to pop by sites that cover us, as well as the occasional one that doesn't. As to your other points.

In terms of respect, between Realms and players, all for that. In my decades of playing PvP/RvR games, I liked to be known for that too. Back in the Air Warrior days, respect among competitors was a good thing to see, and frankly, I ate that kind of stuff up.  

As to yellow ducks, no, they will not be in the game. They are in the game now because they became associated with us/CU, but they will not be part of the Beta+. I love the ducks, mainly because of the awesome work by Sandra (one of our concept artists) but they don't belong in the Camelot Unchained universe that we are creating, and they will be exiting the build soon. 

In terms of the RTS elements, such as resources, they are already part of our design. The economy is almost 100% player-driven (can't be 100% simply because newbies need to start with something) so if your guild wants to build up their home/hall/whatever, they will have to acquire the resources. Same goes for crafting armor, weapons, etc. 

As the lore and the world of Camelot Unchained is developed/revealed, I think you'll be interested in how it evolves when it comes to the Vikings and the other Realms. Nothing is quite as clear or muddy, as it might seem at times. Lots more info is coming, and well, there's a bunch of interesting lore reveals, stories, etc. 

And thanks again for checking us out, especially as much as you have. 

/respect

Glad to hear this. First of all the fact about respect. Now I think there is a chance the motto will be changed. :-)

Second, the yellow ducks. It has been one of my 2 concerns for this game (the motto for Winter's Shadow and this. I was all along hoping like meddyck partly assured me that this was a part of a inhouse joke. And then its all cool. But I feared for immersion, having them ingame. So great what you now have exlained about them. However I I had to choose between the change of motto and a few yellow ducks Id choose another motto (of course I do realize they have nothing to with eatchother :-) ).

Since you bring up art. Let me say in addition to vision and focus for this game the art is really nice! I really like the style, and I can't say how much more I like CU art compared to the other kickstarter game that you are competing with. ;-) Excellent choice.

I will try to keep the thing about RTS as short as possible, because it has a huge potential for wall of text. But to explain/problematize it as ashort as possible... ( I hope a l little OT from the thread is ok) :
Will MMORTS need GvG or can it work in RvR? So far in MMO history (from my perspective) it seem to work better in GvG. Because in my experience with RvR (only TESO) the sense of ownership is lacking. The Realm does not build the base/keep. The realm attacks it, captures it and moves on when fight is over and other places on the map is more fun. So it is lacking sense of owning. We didnt build it why should we defend it? While in GvG, yes we (the guild), gathered resources for it and build it, yes we upgraded it, that is why we will defend it. Because it is ours, and we are better fighters than our rivaling guild som if they come will beat them. Also in RvR if you take over a gold mine or a lumber mill. How will you ditribute them gold or lumber? Shall every guild get the resources that guild A worked for? While in GvG it is obvious that guild A gets it to either upgrade the base/keep or upgrade the members gear.

Thanks for making this a very interesting thread!

Sokekoke

is this some kind of troll/joke thread?

wtf you want.. motto just some random text on a description page.. does not mean shit

NordicApache

After reading this whole thread I am still at a loss. The motto ultimately does not define you and the character you create and live vicariously through. FFS I don't drink alcohol at all so the motto doesn't fully pertain to me; that doesn't mean I am going to NOT play the class or game over some silly words in a class description. 

OP went on to press about respect yet wants to piss in the face of the DEV's and the lore they have created because his feelings don't align with theirs. Then he scoffs at the Duck's in the current build rather then be well informed and get informed that they are placeholders and humorous ones at that. 

I got the same Norwegian blood OP is referencing yet our feelings on the matter are vastly different. 

City State Games: keep doing what you are doing. If someone doesn't like the flavor they can piss off. You are bringing people in that want what you are creating, including silly class motto's. Maybe have the next class motto be "I fart in your general direction". That oughta rustle a few jimmies! 

MarkJacobs

arcundo said:

MarkJacobs said:

<snip>

Sokekoke said:

is this some kind of troll/joke thread?

wtf you want.. motto just some random text on a description page.. does not mean shit

And thanks again for checking us out, especially as much as you have. 

/respect

Glad to hear this. First of all the fact about respect. Now I think there is a chance the motto will be changed. :-)

Second, the yellow ducks. It has been one of my 2 concerns for this game (the motto for Winter's Shadow and this. I was all along hoping like meddyck partly assured me that this was a part of a inhouse joke. And then its all cool. But I feared for immersion, having them ingame. So great what you now have exlained about them. However I I had to choose between the change of motto and a few yellow ducks Id choose another motto (of course I do realize they have nothing to with eatchother :-) ).

Since you bring up art. Let me say in addition to vision and focus for this game the art is really nice! I really like the style, and I can't say how much more I like CU art compared to the other kickstarter game that you are competing with. ;-) Excellent choice.

I will try to keep the thing about RTS as short as possible, because it has a huge potential for wall of text. But to explain/problematize it as ashort as possible... ( I hope a l little OT from the thread is ok) :
Will MMORTS need GvG or can it work in RvR? So far in MMO history (from my perspective) it seem to work better in GvG. Because in my experience with RvR (only TESO) the sense of ownership is lacking. The Realm does not build the base/keep. The realm attacks it, captures it and moves on when fight is over and other places on the map is more fun. So it is lacking sense of owning. We didnt build it why should we defend it? While in GvG, yes we (the guild), gathered resources for it and build it, yes we upgraded it, that is why we will defend it. Because it is ours, and we are better fighters than our rivaling guild som if they come will beat them. Also in RvR if you take over a gold mine or a lumber mill. How will you ditribute them gold or lumber? Shall every guild get the resources that guild A worked for? While in GvG it is obvious that guild A gets it to either upgrade the base/keep or upgrade the members gear.

Thanks for making this a very interesting thread!

You're welcome. As to the ducks, I've been saying all along that they are just part of the fun for now. The development process is stressful for both developer and Backer of course, so a little humor is a welcome thing. As much as I love them and the work that Sandra has done with them, they will be gone from the game once we go into Beta, as I said. 

As to the artwork, thanks. We are trying to create our own style which isn't quite as realistic as some games, but with enough style to make it appealing to our Backers. I like to think of it as "realistic fantasy" and leave it at that.

As far as guilds, we will not be encouraging intra-Realm, GVG since you are going to want/need the help of other guilds vs. the other two Realms. Will that mean that the most powerful guilds can simply claim resources and keep other folks from their Realm out of it? No, it can't be that simple of course, because that would lead to too many problems within a Realm and hinder Realm pride. OTOH, if a guild has worked to build the mine, can they benefit the most from it? Yep, we need that too. It will be a delicate balancing act, but our game is built upon the idea that each of the three Realms has to cooperate/work together internally. If it's a free-for-all within a Realm because of mechanics we've created, that would be bad for the players within that Realm.

MarkJacobs

NordicApache said:

After reading this whole thread I am still at a loss. The motto ultimately does not define you and the character you create and live vicariously through. FFS I don't drink alcohol at all so the motto doesn't fully pertain to me; that doesn't mean I am going to NOT play the class or game over some silly words in a class description. 

OP went on to press about respect yet wants to piss in the face of the DEV's and the lore they have created because his feelings don't align with theirs. Then he scoffs at the Duck's in the current build rather then be well informed and get informed that they are placeholders and humorous ones at that. 

I got the same Norwegian blood OP is referencing yet our feelings on the matter are vastly different. 

City State Games: keep doing what you are doing. If someone doesn't like the flavor they can piss off. You are bringing people in that want what you are creating, including silly class motto's. Maybe have the next class motto be "I fart in your general direction". That oughta rustle a few jimmies! 

LOL. Maybe I'll do just that, who knows?

As to the OP, I'm fine with different opinions of what we are doing. Frankly, I know that our game isn't for everyone, and that's okay. We'll keep going down our current path and if people like what they see, that's great. If not, well, then we'll know that my design vision was flawed. So, whether it is the mottos, the non-mirrored classes (and a lot of them), etc., if people truly don't like them, that's cool too. We're not saying one thing, and doing another, so I can't react badly to people who don't like aspects of a game whose one of its Kickstarter mottos was "We know we will piss off some people."  

I'll let our continuing efforts speak for themselves, and people can make their own decisions.

Thanks for the supporting thought though! 

arcundo

MarkJacobs said:

[snip]

As far as guilds, we will not be encouraging intra-Realm, GVG since you are going to want/need the help of other guilds vs. the other two Realms. Will that mean that the most powerful guilds can simply claim resources and keep other folks from their Realm out of it? No, it can't be that simple of course, because that would lead to too many problems within a Realm and hinder Realm pride. OTOH, if a guild has worked to build the mine, can they benefit the most from it? Yep, we need that too. It will be a delicate balancing act, but our game is built upon the idea that each of the three Realms has to cooperate/work together internally. If it's a free-for-all within a Realm because of mechanics we've created, that would be bad for the players within that Realm.

Although the developer of the only RvR I have might have good reasons for going with a maximum of 5 guild per account, and the guilds being intra-realm, I had sceptisim to that, and  I think that choice wasnt the best. One need a little us vs them. So I am glad that the guilds in CU wont be intra-realm.

Cool that one can actually build structures in CU, and not just take over developer built structures. That mechanic will give a much stronger sense of ownership an willingness to defend it. Even better if the guild banner or something was placed on/in or in front of the structure. Will be exciting to follow how this stronger focus on guilds (than the one RvR I have played) will make it into the game.