Funny thing, the more we hear about how P2P MMO's are dying, the less it actually seems to be happening, kind of hillarious that most of the top 5 MMO's right now, involve having a subscription model.
Funny thing, the more we hear about how P2P MMO's are dying, the less it actually seems to be happening, kind of hillarious that most of the top 5 MMO's right now, involve having a subscription model.
It's not about P2P dying, it's about Sub-only becoming a thing of a bygone time. All it really says is hybrid systems are becoming more common place, B2P, F2P with sub options, etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Funny thing, the more we hear about how P2P MMO's are dying, the less it actually seems to be happening, kind of hillarious that most of the top 5 MMO's right now, involve having a subscription model.
Well most of them are also older than the F2P model in the west.... How many big publisher sub only games are coming out in the foreseeable future and how many that did come out recently have actually stayed sub only...
Funny thing, the more we hear about how P2P MMO's are dying, the less it actually seems to be happening, kind of hillarious that most of the top 5 MMO's right now, involve having a subscription model.
depends how you define P2P MMO, personally Id never say a game is sub only, if there is a cashshop, even if it only sells cosmetics, and the only reason the companies offer a "sub model" is because people are used to it, and are very sceptical toward pure F2P.
optional Sub + F2P + legalized gold selling is where alot of games are at. So personally would never call WoW a sub only game, since alot of what they earn come from selling other things in game.
Pure Sub games are pretty much gone. Just the way the business have gone.
So there you have it, it was broken in 2008, dead in 2012, dead again in 2015, and will continue to be dead in the future, except for all the times its not dead.
Well to be honest 2008 is when we started seeing some f2p mmos come out, so that was the start of it. Was it DDO the first one that made the transition? THen in 2012 most games have transitioned to F2P and now in 2015 there are an extremely small number of MMORPGs that are subscription based. There are none coming up on the horizon too! I would say that looks pretty dead to me.
The reason you had all those articles back in 2012 was because Swtor crashed and burned. In 2013 we had ff14arr proving how wrong all those articles were. Even the original article pointed out ff14, its just that nariusseldon chose to ignore it, and others didn't bother to read the article.
P2P fails when games aren't ready at release.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I tried typing a post up, but these boards are so horrid and broken that I simply can't be bothered to continue posting here or even using the site at this point. Fucking nickle and dime bullshit from the corrupt institution that is MMORPG .
In my opinion I do not think you can release really large MMORPGs to subscription based only any more because you need a large population but if you're talking about a small population of players willing to support a type of game then you will be able to continue releasing a sub only experience. People are willing to pay monthly for the type of game they want very easily but the key word here is small. Do not expect large populations for this type of games.
Funny thing, the more we hear about how P2P MMO's are dying, the less it actually seems to be happening, kind of hillarious that most of the top 5 MMO's right now, involve having a subscription model.
[mod edit]
I'd wager most of us here have been devoted to sub based games at some point, a lot of us probably still pick the sub option when it's there, I do (SWTOR, AOC, ESO, etc...) it's just more convenient and straight forward. That still doesn't change reality.
Post edited by Amana on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I tried typing a post up, but these boards are so horrid and broken that I simply can't be bothered to continue posting here or even using the site at this point. Fucking nickle and dime bullshit from the corrupt institution that is MMORPG .
Never had a problem myself, and everyone else seems to be using them just fine. User error? Ah well, your charming demeanor will be missed.
Funny thing, the more we hear about how P2P MMO's are dying, the less it actually seems to be happening, kind of hillarious that most of the top 5 MMO's right now, involve having a subscription model.
[mod edit]
I'd wager most of us here have been devoted to sub based games at some point, a lot of us probably still pick the sub option when it's there, I do (SWTOR, AOC, ESO, etc...) it's just more convenient and straight forward. That still doesn't change reality.
Well, currently i am subbed to 3 games, Eve Online, SW:TOR, and FFXIV:ARR. 2 of them pure P2P, one of them a P2P/F2P hybrid, technically i could play SW:TOR as F2P, but couldn't be bothered :chuffed:
In my opinion I do not think you can release really large MMORPGs to subscription based only any more because you need a large population but if you're talking about a small population of players willing to support a type of game then you will be able to continue releasing a sub only experience. People are willing to pay monthly for the type of game they want very easily but the key word here is small. Do not expect large populations for this type of games.
I agree to some extent, although I think the population required for MMOs is largely overestimated. 10 years ago, you only needed about 100k to 200k users by the end of the first year to sustain an MMO. These days, hosting and maintenance is even cheaper, so it requires even less.
Most AAA companies though, aren't looking to break even. They aren't even looking for "successful profit". They're looking for cash cows, and if an MMO can't provide hundreds of millions in profit, they'll cut it.
I want a new system that P2P can use, perhaps one in which there is a permadeath feature (like Chronicles of Elyria) where you pay for a new life, like in CoE that gives you roughly 10-12 months of playtime perlife so it is cheaper then a monthly sub and adds to the gameplay.
Sign up for Chronicles of Elyria here don't forget to use my friend code - B4ACB3
I want a new system that P2P can use, perhaps one in which there is a permadeath feature (like Chronicles of Elyria) where you pay for a new life, like in CoE that gives you roughly 10-12 months of playtime perlife so it is cheaper then a monthly sub and adds to the gameplay.
ooh, interesting idea. What if the game was free, so long as you don't get killed. If you are killed, however, at any time during the month, you have to pay for the next month.
Lot's of cascading problems in the idea though. (If I get killed, I'm obviously upset already... and now I have to pay money for a game that's pi$$ing me off?) Hmmm.
depends how you define P2P MMO, personally Id never say a game is sub only, if there is a cashshop, even if it only sells cosmetics, and the only reason the companies offer a "sub model" is because people are used to it, and are very sceptical toward pure F2P.
optional Sub + F2P + legalized gold selling is where alot of games are at. So personally would never call WoW a sub only game, since alot of what they earn come from selling other things in game.
Pure Sub games are pretty much gone. Just the way the business have gone.
Pay to Play (P2P) is defined as requiring a payment BEFORE playing the game. This payment can be for a box sale, expansion, account, sub, etc. Requiring payment before being able to play is all that this means... it doesn't have any meaning past this.
Once again, I will say this. There is no problem with the subscription model. There are still games out there that use it. The problem is and has always been.......The games. The games that had been released have little ability to retain their players after a couple of months. Of course no one is going to remain subbed. Year after year, crappy games are released or games that have little to do once you "finish" them and player unsurprisingly unsub. Then the "I want it all for free" crowd comes out of the woodwork screaming "Subs don't work!" Despite the overwhelming evidence that they do. The issue here has NOT been the business model. The issue here has ALWAYS been the games themselves.
Misleading, WoW, FFXIV;ARR, Eve Online, all sub games, then there are games like SW;TOR, and Archeage, that technically are free to play, but in reality, you need to pay a sub in order to fully experience them. Short answer, while some might not like it, subbed games are still doing well, in one form or another.
The sub model isn't gone, it just evolved with many titles still either starting out as sub only first and converting later, or offering a "patron" status that gives most of the benefits of a traditional sub but allows the publisher to charge for "extras" to increase revenue.
I will agree though, sub only, no cash shop is pretty much a dead model, too limiting to a developers cash flow.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are companies whose pride will not allow them to do anything but sub. Square Enix in the lead. But as I said a hundred or more times I don't see why subs must always be around the $15 month mark. It wouldn't kill a company to try a $2 a month sub plan which would appeal to many. Since the acronym Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game seems to suggest to me MANY players.
depends how you define P2P MMO, personally Id never say a game is sub only, if there is a cashshop, even if it only sells cosmetics, and the only reason the companies offer a "sub model" is because people are used to it, and are very sceptical toward pure F2P.
optional Sub + F2P + legalized gold selling is where alot of games are at. So personally would never call WoW a sub only game, since alot of what they earn come from selling other things in game.
Pure Sub games are pretty much gone. Just the way the business have gone.
Your personal, arbitrary qualifiers do not apply.
In what way was he being arbitrary, seems to me his qualifiers were pretty much spot on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I will agree though, sub only, no cash shop is pretty much a dead model, too limiting to a developers cash flow.
Even sub-only, *with* cash shop ... are pretty much gone. Who else is doing that except WoW? And that is only they still have millions of inertia sub players.
I suppose there always will be niche games trying the sub-only model but if you look at the whole market .... sub-only is going to be pretty much irrelevant.
This is a MMORPG site, not a MMO site. MMORPG will go the way of of subscriptions, while cheaper action arcade based MMO will not.
It is the difference, in understanding the difference between an adult and a child.
Most, if not all data these "data collection companies" collect is static information. And does not include human nature (or the social aspect). They just query static subjects, business platforms & developers and mix in what they think will happen (their goals & targets). While not actually understanding the actual Consumer/Gamers who have aged over the last 10 years.
I can tell you from my own research, that in the United States alone, there are some 5 million disgruntled MMORPG players who are waiting for a new World. They are sick of trying these half-asses ones built over the last 6 years. Most of these people are not poor and have money are willing to spend $300/year on their MMORPG hobby and lifestyle.
Only a child would fret over a $300/year game. No adult would, specially if it is the one they and their adults friends have been waiting for and participating in/with. And understand, that the $300 is cheap to adults, given that $300 is a whole year. Where as a sporting even like NFL is one night and can cost $150 for two tickets and another $50 for food & beer & parking.
Business men already tried the whales in the MMORPG space. They all died out. ArcheAge was a last ditch effort to harpoon the seas. They made their money and is now dying a fast death because the game world itself offers the players nothing.
The Baby Bells are coming and they will offer those 5 million disgruntled players a haven. None of these people will be complaining about price, or subscription cost of these Baby Bells. The only people who will be complaining are the children who don't own a CC and want to play. But then again, they will have all these free things to play with, so they won't be complaining to much.
This is a MMORPG site, not a MMO site. MMORPG will go the way of of subscriptions, while cheaper action arcade based MMO will not.
lol .. you think this is a MMORPG site, when the "MMORPG List" (please click on the link on top and see for yourself) includes LoL, Diablo 3, and so on and so forth ... with their own forums no less.
And you think MMORPGs will go the sub-only route? ... like how many? Again, go to that list, count all the games categorized as MMORPG, then tell us what is the percentage that is sub-only.
So there you have it, it was broken in 2008, dead in 2012, dead again in 2015, and will continue to be dead in the future, except for all the times its not dead.
P2P MMOs are less than 1% of the market now (for total games not playerbase)...I think we counted 5 P2P MMOs on another thread.....SO if thats not dead I don't know what is.....
So there you have it, it was broken in 2008, dead in 2012, dead again in 2015, and will continue to be dead in the future, except for all the times its not dead.
P2P MMOs are less than 1% of the market now (for total games not playerbase)...I think we counted 5 P2P MMOs on another thread.....SO if thats not dead I don't know what is.....
P2P MMO's may be small in number, but they still have a big chunk of the revenue. I would also expect to see more games launch as P2P in the future (and then convert after a time).
The MMO(RPG) market was never large as many believed, it is only WoW that gave this false impression. If the market was as big as many thought, then there would be multiple games the size of WoW.
I truly believe we will see a resurgence in subs because everything else has been a FAKE gimmick. The original gimmick of FREE to play is an outright lie even in it's best form with restrictions it is still not THE GAME for free. Then in comes the next gimmick buy to play...lol.So they sell people 1/3 of a game then pretend it is free to play lmao.Then by time they sell them two more expacs to finally get the game up to par of a quality title they have received a lot more than buy to play.
Next gimmick...EARLY access again lmao.Early access but you have to pay to "grow with us".Since when do we pay to help YOU test your game and get it right?The REAL truth is it is just another gimmick to sell a half assed game.
final gimmick FREE handouts.:Hey here is an idea let's fish in gamer's to give us free money.We have nobody to answer to,no risk what so ever and best of all we have a job and get paid great to do it.We have created our own employment with other people's money.
Eventually SCAMS/gimmicks are called out,people come to their senses,well most of them.Then these gimmicks no longer work and eventually these scammers run out of gimmicks and eventually return to sub gaming.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well most of them are also older than the F2P model in the west.... How many big publisher sub only games are coming out in the foreseeable future and how many that did come out recently have actually stayed sub only...
Just curious.
This have been a good conversation
optional Sub + F2P + legalized gold selling is where alot of games are at. So personally would never call WoW a sub only game, since alot of what they earn come from selling other things in game.
Pure Sub games are pretty much gone. Just the way the business have gone.
P2P fails when games aren't ready at release.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most AAA companies though, aren't looking to break even. They aren't even looking for "successful profit". They're looking for cash cows, and if an MMO can't provide hundreds of millions in profit, they'll cut it.
Join the revolutionary MMO!
Lot's of cascading problems in the idea though. (If I get killed, I'm obviously upset already... and now I have to pay money for a game that's pi$$ing me off?) Hmmm.
I will agree though, sub only, no cash shop is pretty much a dead model, too limiting to a developers cash flow.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Let me put it in a formula:
Greed = Few
Generosity = Many
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I suppose there always will be niche games trying the sub-only model but if you look at the whole market .... sub-only is going to be pretty much irrelevant.
This is a MMORPG site, not a MMO site.
MMORPG will go the way of of subscriptions, while cheaper action arcade based MMO will not.
It is the difference, in understanding the difference between an adult and a child.
Most, if not all data these "data collection companies" collect is static information. And does not include human nature (or the social aspect). They just query static subjects, business platforms & developers and mix in what they think will happen (their goals & targets). While not actually understanding the actual Consumer/Gamers who have aged over the last 10 years.
I can tell you from my own research, that in the United States alone, there are some 5 million disgruntled MMORPG players who are waiting for a new World. They are sick of trying these half-asses ones built over the last 6 years. Most of these people are not poor and have money are willing to spend $300/year on their MMORPG hobby and lifestyle.
Only a child would fret over a $300/year game. No adult would, specially if it is the one they and their adults friends have been waiting for and participating in/with. And understand, that the $300 is cheap to adults, given that $300 is a whole year. Where as a sporting even like NFL is one night and can cost $150 for two tickets and another $50 for food & beer & parking.
Business men already tried the whales in the MMORPG space. They all died out. ArcheAge was a last ditch effort to harpoon the seas. They made their money and is now dying a fast death because the game world itself offers the players nothing.
The Baby Bells are coming and they will offer those 5 million disgruntled players a haven. None of these people will be complaining about price, or subscription cost of these Baby Bells. The only people who will be complaining are the children who don't own a CC and want to play. But then again, they will have all these free things to play with, so they won't be complaining to much.
And you think MMORPGs will go the sub-only route? ... like how many? Again, go to that list, count all the games categorized as MMORPG, then tell us what is the percentage that is sub-only.
P2P MMOs are less than 1% of the market now (for total games not playerbase)...I think we counted 5 P2P MMOs on another thread.....SO if thats not dead I don't know what is.....
The MMO(RPG) market was never large as many believed, it is only WoW that gave this false impression. If the market was as big as many thought, then there would be multiple games the size of WoW.
The original gimmick of FREE to play is an outright lie even in it's best form with restrictions it is still not THE GAME for free.
Then in comes the next gimmick buy to play...lol.So they sell people 1/3 of a game then pretend it is free to play lmao.Then by time they sell them two more expacs to finally get the game up to par of a quality title they have received a lot more than buy to play.
Next gimmick...EARLY access again lmao.Early access but you have to pay to "grow with us".Since when do we pay to help YOU test your game and get it right?The REAL truth is it is just another gimmick to sell a half assed game.
final gimmick FREE handouts.:Hey here is an idea let's fish in gamer's to give us free money.We have nobody to answer to,no risk what so ever and best of all we have a job and get paid great to do it.We have created our own employment with other people's money.
Eventually SCAMS/gimmicks are called out,people come to their senses,well most of them.Then these gimmicks no longer work and eventually these scammers run out of gimmicks and eventually return to sub gaming.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.