The million $ question, how do you compete with FREE?

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    edited October 2015
    Fdzzaigl said:
    You know what they say about people who assume?

    I make the point that it is very poor value for your money to buy an ingame hat or some fluff for €20 while nowadays you can get full retail games at that price point.

    My point is that I think that F2P games could be both hugely more successful if they set realistic prices for game store items and create a lot more happy, paying customers that way. Instead of only a few.


    Interesting assumptions. Not based at all in reality, but interesting. I mean, are you suggesting prices in item malls start at 20 euros? Nooo... of course not, right? Then what you're arguing is that because there are items at that price, then it's poor value. You too added together A, B and 4, and you came up with "crayon". 

    Pick a subject you're a little better versed in, Elikal. 
    Post edited by Loktofeit on

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Naowut said:
    Have a good product? /thread
    That does not work if there are other good products that are free. You have to be better than ALL of them in some way.


  • linadragonlinadragon Emmaus, PAMember UncommonPosts: 444
    The F2P market has primarily grown due to the MMORPG genre stagnating rather heavily for quite awhile now.  Companies keep trying to focus on capturing the market segment that World of Warcraft hit early on and the like not realizing that it has the crowd it does not because it's a stellar mmorpg but the warcraft IP had a fanbase prior to it and it hit during a time when gaming was becoming more "socially acceptable. Blizzard also had the money to go around heavily advertising on television and the like that not many MMORPGS have or will likely ever do.

    There are a good portion of players in WoW that are just WoW players and not at all MMORPG players and these companies need to look at realistic growth numbers. We are at a point where two million players would be a realistic population base at the highest tier for most MMORPGs and likely will almost always end up a bit lower than this unless you can pull in a captive audience for a long enough period of time to truly grow. 

    The larger problem with the stagnation is that outside of story which in large part people ignore and some "skills" most of these games are feeling the same (minus some polish here and there) to a good portion of the crowd that plays these games.

    Why should or why would I opt to pay for a game that feels the same as a game I can get for free that plays almost the same gameplay wise and almost the same level of polish as some games that are P2P. You also run into the area where many F2P titles will take a bit more risk than a P2P game. Indie games and F2P titles now are where the innovation seems to be popping up. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    The F2P market has primarily grown due to the MMORPG genre stagnating rather heavily for quite awhile now.  Companies keep trying to focus on capturing the market segment that World of Warcraft hit early on and the like not realizing that it has the crowd it does not because it's a stellar mmorpg but the warcraft IP had a fanbase prior to it and it hit during a time when gaming was becoming more "socially acceptable. Blizzard also had the money to go around heavily advertising on television and the like that not many MMORPGS have or will likely ever do.


    Lol is already doing better than WoW.

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/

    And yes, you are right .. the MMORPG genre has stagnated because devs don't want to make them anymore. They are now more focused on other kinds of MMOs.

    Who else is still following WoW? Not even Blizz is making another MMORPG .. and they are following LoL (HotS), making card games, and going into other areas.

    F2P actually helps these OTHER areas to grow. None of these new types of MMOs are using sub-only model. 
  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowhereMember UncommonPosts: 2,433
    edited October 2015
    Loktofeit said:
    Fdzzaigl said:
    You know what they say about people who assume?

    I make the point that it is very poor value for your money to buy an ingame hat or some fluff for €20 while nowadays you can get full retail games at that price point.

    My point is that I think that F2P games could be both hugely more successful if they set realistic prices for game store items and create a lot more happy, paying customers that way. Instead of only a few.


    Interesting assumptions. Not based at all in reality, but interesting. I mean, are you suggesting prices in item malls start at 20 euros? Nooo... of course not, right? Then what you're arguing is that because there are items at that price, then it's poor value. You too added together A, B and 4, and you came up with "crayon". 

    Pick a subject you're a little better versed in, Elikal. 
    First off: "Elikal?" Are you freaking serious? So every time I went into discussion with that guy I was doing some sort of psycho schizophrenia act? /facepalm

    If you're so incredibly well versed in this subject, you might want to stop putting words into my mouth and actually try to discuss the damn subject. Or give some insight in this "reality" you are touting.

    Yes I find many of the items in F2P shops overpriced for the value that they offer. The fact that there are often also items in those shops which aren't overpriced doesn't change the fact that IN MY OPINION (for god's sake it's irritating to have to put this after each and every sentence lest you get accused of whichever what), those other items aren't overpriced.

    Overall, IN MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE, a lot of free2play games out there have a generally poor balance of value in their item malls. Featuring a lot of poor-value items, including: expensive cosmetic items; time-savers; RNG lottery items; expensive unlockables etc.


    Post edited by Fdzzaigl on

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  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 1,959
    Fdzzaigl said:

    Overall, IN MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE, a lot of free2play games out there have a generally poor balance of value in their item malls. Featuring a lot of poor-value items, including: expensive cosmetic items; time-savers; RNG lottery items; expensive unlockables etc.


    This is as good a time as any to use these references:




    These are great references, and show how developers balance the different type of players. What does this have to do with the products being sold? Well, they are targeting the player bases that they want for their game. Those cosmetic items being sold.... killers find them too expensive, and not useful. However, they are great for socializers, and achievers want to get them all.  For them, the value is acceptable.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    edited October 2015
    Superman0X said:  What does this have to do with the products being sold? Well, they are targeting the player bases that they want for their game. Those cosmetic items being sold.... killers find them too expensive, and not useful. However, they are great for socializers, and achievers want to get them all.  For them, the value is acceptable.
    I didn't think that needed to be explained, but evidently it did and I thank you for doing so. I assumed that if someone was going to not just discuss but actually argue their points here they would know something as basic as that. 
    Post edited by Loktofeit on

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Fdzzaigl said:


    Yes I find many of the items in F2P shops overpriced for the value that they offer. 

    So what?

    Value is subjective and perceived. So you (one player) think that they are overpriced ... naturally you won't buy anything.

    However, if the game survives, it means that SOME (whales?) find the items NOT overpriced (otherwise they would not have bought).
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    The F2P market has primarily grown due to the MMORPG genre stagnating rather heavily for quite awhile now.
    P2P MMORPGs weren't ever that big enough that they represent the massive F2P industrial (which covers many game types, many of which don't have much demographic overlap with MMORPG players.)

    But sure if you're only referring to MMORPG players transitioning from B2P to F2P, then that's true (though slightly misleading to imply F2P is primarily popular due to B2P stagnating, when the bigger picture of all F2P gaming shows that this is simply something players are widely interested in.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowhereMember UncommonPosts: 2,433



    These are great references, and show how developers balance the different type of players. What does this have to do with the products being sold? Well, they are targeting the player bases that they want for their game. Those cosmetic items being sold.... killers find them too expensive, and not useful. However, they are great for socializers, and achievers want to get them all.  For them, the value is acceptable.
    Yes, that's a great series of videos., I really love Extra Credits and agree with many of his points. But you see, I don't think this opinion of mine is contrary to anything being said here.

    First off, the last video is interesting. But if you do the Bartle test you will notice how no one conforms 100% to any of those types. I for example am primarily an explorer, then equal parts socializer / killer, then a little bit achiever.
    Ultimately what is being sold in the cash shop will also try to reach every type of gamer in their game.
    Do keep in mind that I'm not purely talking about cosmetic stuff here, though that is my prime example.

    Finally, I'm not disputing that value has a huge subjective component to it. However, MMO publishers / developers do not live in a vacuum; neither do customers live in a vacuum (at least I damn well hope they don't).
    People know and see the pricing for other products out there, and a customer who goes out to compare and look at what they're getting for their money, can make a fairly objective judgement about the prices of items in these games.

    The OP of this thread mentioned that he would like to see better F2P projects and that more competition would take place. I would like this as well.

    However, MMO competitors have largely followed suit in their pricing so far. A strong example being WoW's $20 pony's. Which, despite controversy at the time, is now deemed an acceptable price for such an item by many F2P & P2P games alike.

    Now you can think about this and follow two lines of thought.
    1) A lot of people still took the bait and spent the money on that mount regardless of any controversy. As any protest died down anyhow, we'll be cool asking that price in the future too. This kind of thought is (imo) anti-customer.

    2)You can think about all the people who *didn't* take the bait, the ones who protested about this kind of thing because they compared prices and ultimately felt the deal lacking. Then you can decide that instead you'll be trying to sweeten the deal by lowering prices to acceptable standards and breed more happy customers. That's what I would call pro-customer.

    So far, I've personally seen a lot of the first way of thinking out there. That's my opinion, but if you've ever read any sort of F2P game forums, I really think you'd see I'm not alone there.




    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowhereMember UncommonPosts: 2,433
    edited October 2015
    Loktofeit said:
    Superman0X said:  <snip>
    I didn't think that needed to be explained, but evidently it did and I thank you for doing so. I assumed that if someone was going to not just discuss but actually argue their points here they would know something as basic as that. 
    This post made me laugh really hard. Because when you're calling the linked Extra Credit's video's "basic"; not only did I watch those two video's before, my opinion on this matter has also been heavily influenced by him.

    Cases in point:




    Post edited by Fdzzaigl on

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Fdzzaigl said:
    Loktofeit said:
    Superman0X said:  <snip>
    I didn't think that needed to be explained, but evidently it did and I thank you for doing so. I assumed that if someone was going to not just discuss but actually argue their points here they would know something as basic as that. 
    This post made me laugh really hard. Because when you're calling the linked Extra Credit's video's "basic"; not only did I watch those two video's before, my opinion on this matter has also been heavily influenced by him.


    I didn't say anything about the videos. I quoted and spoke about a specific statement, which you conveniently left out of this reply. I even omitted the videos in my reply so there could be no mistake in what I was referring to. Maybe during all that laughing you just missed that... among other things. ;) 


    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Fdzzaigl said:


    The OP of this thread mentioned that he would like to see better F2P projects and that more competition would take place. I would like this as well.



    I do agree more competition is always better for consumers.

    However, I would like to point out that there are a lot of competition out there already. How many MOBAs are out there? How about vehicle shooting games like WoT are out there? How many WOW-like MMORPGs are out there? 

    And how many games are already weeded out by competition?
  • DeivosDeivos Member EpicPosts: 3,692
    Fdzzaigl said:
    Cases in point:
    Considering the contents of those videos cover points that I was making in this thread previously, can't really say you're going to get any meaningful responses addressing them as thus-far it's been the strategy to pretend none of that exists. 

    For example, the last post addressed to me tried to counterpoint on LoL by suggesting players are not in fact paying for content regularly that they have no knowledge on if they will enjoy. The reality is that it's a regular occurrence in LoL because the sales of new characters is pretty important. There's no certainty whatsoever that they are enjoying the content they are investing into, the only motivation is the notion of staying competitive. It's ironic that the point to be made isn't that it's even saying the game is fun to play, but that the game attracts those that are primarily satisfied by "winning" over their competitors. There's no objective point to be made of the game's quality there, and that's rather the point that the quality of the game has become a tertiary concern compared to the hype and maintaining an influx of users. The monetisation model relies on mass volume and these purchases that results. Just consider how much hype was engineered around a video for skin textures recently. Selling an idea far outstrips the matter of what the product even is in this case.

    Also for example, the response given to one of your posts suggesting the focus of the topic, that then does not address the fact that your other post expounds on said topic quite a bit.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Deivos said:
     There's no certainty whatsoever that they are enjoying the content they are investing into, the only motivation is the notion of staying competitive. It's ironic that the point to be made isn't that it's even saying the game is fun to play, but that the game attracts those that are primarily satisfied by "winning" over their competitors. 
    If they are "satisfied" (your words, not mine) by whatever (in this case "winning") .. isn't that where the enjoyment is?

    You cannot argue there is no enjoyment whatsoever. Otherwise, why would millions of people stay.

    In fact, in the absence of evidence (do you have a survey showing that most LoL players do not enjoy playing at all, but only winning?), it is much more reasonable to assume there is some enjoyment also in the gameplay.

    Otherwise, since there are so many other competitive games out there, they can easily choose one that give them the satisfaction of winning and fun (subjective) gameplay. 
  • DeivosDeivos Member EpicPosts: 3,692
    So many competitive games, not so many MLG. Most those other titles you suggest abound have nowhere's near the advertised presence or resulting sub/turnover rate of LoL, making it much less likely that people wanting to be competitive will even look at them. It's very much image moving people in this case.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin

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