The million $ question, how do you compete with FREE?

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  • JermzyJermzy Ortonville, MIMember UncommonPosts: 210
    F2P is not free.  Think about it.....
    It is a gimmick.  True, anyone can play it, for free...but to what extent.  If it is truly free to play, how do they keep the servers up, provide patches, new content, customer support, etc.

    What it all boils down to is what any individual is willing to pay for a product.  If a "f2p" model game is good, i will play it.  If a sub-based game is good, i will play it.  How to beat a f2p game, make something i like, better.
    Haroo!
  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 1,960
    laserit said:
    Kopogero said:

    I think by 2017 the B2P and P2P product will become obsolete in this genre. There is also only as much one can do to their unpolished, fresh MMORPG, especially how expensive is today to deliver AAA MMORPG and competing with the rest.

    I'm more inclined to believe the opposite

    By the year 2017 most people will come to realize what a sham F2P really is.
    I will counter BOTH of you. I believe that by 2017 we will see a more aggressive use of BOTH forms of monetization. There is plenty of room in the market for both types, and we will see companies choose the one that makes them the most money (even it if means changing along the way).
  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAMember RarePosts: 3,233
    edited October 2015
    I think we have beaten this subject to death over and over. If they don't get it by now, they are simply refusing to and are more concerned with money than with a good game. 

    Games are offering less now than they were in 2004. No housing, terrible crafting, terrible customization, completely and utterly soloable so classes mean nothing (and I'm a solo player). Heck, we have some games where you just wander from area to area to gain quests, and they  magically appear in your quest list (I'm looking at you GW2) where you magically group up with the people in the area to accomplish the quest (also GW2). They've stopped trying to develop games beyond theme parks and pvp games. At end game, they don't even bother trying anymore. 

    Game developers are actually complaining that they are having trouble impressing players with cool graphics, while the game systems are totally ignored.

    What everyone wanted was for them to take the old games and do it better. But that's not what happened. They took the old games, cut them in half, made better graphics, and then announced that they were doing it better. 

    I much prefer to pay a sub. I don't like f2p please it brings in the trolls and the pk'rs who just want to make everyones lives miserable so they can feel superior. I also don't like being nickle and dimed to death. It's like ordering a pizza for $15 and then being charged for each topping separately so that what used to be cheap suddenly balloons to $25 for a simple pepperoni pizza.

    Even better, let's compare it to something that happened in the news recently. A pill needed by people with aids to live that cost less than $1 to make, and was $13.50 was bought by a greedy child who decided to increase the cost to $750 a pill and everyone justifiably freaked even the politicians. He has since caved and brought the price down to $250 a pill but how many people can actually afford that and how many people are going to die because of it? It's the same thing. Greed running rampant. 

    It's idiotic and greedy. 

    They can do better. If they want to. But I know plenty of people who have stopped playing MMO's entirely because of the greedy mindset they currently have. 
    Post edited by Moirae on
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,235
    Sure, F2P is great cause it's free, but along with that comes...

    • Poor Customer Support
    • Shallow Content
    • Cash Shop Shenanigans
    • Hidden Paywalls
    • Increased Amount Of BOTs, Cheaters, Gold Farmers And So On
    • The Worst Communities
    So yeah, enjoy F2P, where you get what you pay for, or rather, what you don't pay for.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,116
    edited October 2015
    At this point what is the better game? that is the real question... The chosen one hasn't shown it's face yet, it's like a long lost fable at this point IMO. No matter what every game that comes along has something that narrows it's playerbase down. Be it FFA PVP, story focus, etc,etc,etc...

    This better quality game seems like a pipe dream folks are holding on to, to me. Wants and preferences are all over the place in this day and age, so much so it's extremely hard to pin point any semblance of a perfect formula.

    And LOL at comparing game developers to a guy holding aids medicine for ransom. WTH?
    Post edited by Distopia on

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395

    Any MMO including the ones that call themselves "free to play" need a vast majority of the player base to pay something towards the game's upkeep and  profitability.  
    uh? Said who?

    You just need a small fraction of whales. No f2p games have "a vast majority of the player base to pay something". 
  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309

    Any MMO including the ones that call themselves "free to play" need a vast majority of the player base to pay something towards the game's upkeep and  profitability.  
    uh? Said who?

    You just need a small fraction of whales. No f2p games have "a vast majority of the player base to pay something". 
    Uh? Said who?  You?  

    Btw he said mmo not your mobile phone games.  

    I'd love to see your proof that he is wrong about mmos. 
  • turinmacleodturinmacleod Staff Writer Mahopac, NYMember UncommonPosts: 154
    Please, the claim of "Free to Play" is far from appealing, at least to me and to many other gamers.

    Free means crappy. Free means very little support. Free means hidden and sneaky monetization tricks.

    Telling me your game is free almost immediately turns me off to it.

    You want my money? Make a game that is FUN. If I lose track of time while playing- SCORE. If I feel compelled to load it up when I get home from work- SCORE. If I enjoy my time spent in your game, then I will pay a reasonable price for it.

    Pretty simple, really.

    T
  • JakeSimJakeSim Franklin, MAMember UncommonPosts: 798
    Be a fun, quality game. That's it.
    I got addicted to streaming. You can check it out by searching "JakeSimTV". I'd post a link but it shows my channel embedded.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember RarePosts: 2,617
    Free to play is good when the game isn't influenced to make you spend by becoming tedious or unfair to advance or compete.  
  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIMember UncommonPosts: 4,428
    Kopogero said:

    I think by 2017 the B2P and P2P product will become obsolete in this genre. There is also only as much one can do to their unpolished, fresh MMORPG, especially how expensive is today to deliver AAA MMORPG and competing with the rest.


    The main question asked was already answered in most of the ways that I would.  In short, nothing is really free.

    I'll also disagree with the above.  I don't think either of those will ever be obsolete.  Most players want CHOICES.  I want to be able to choose to subscribe to a game I really like and experience the best that the game has to offer with no hassles.  On the other hand, I want to be able to choose to support games like Marvel Heroes, that I don't really play often enough to sub to, but enjoy playing when I do and I like to be able to buy heroes that I like and not have to pay for the development of the ones I don't.

    Choices.  It's true that strictly sub-based games will probably become fewer and fewer as time goes on, but a good company knows that different people like to be able to choose their level of services, and a sub should pretty much always be one of those choices.


  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309
    edited October 2015
    Sorry you guys and your doom and gloom, poor me nothing to play crap. There are more quality mmos out right now then ever before. Some of them say they are f2p but to really play these games you need to sub.

    I think it's great these quality games like WoW, Ffxiv, SWTOR, ESO, Wildstar (to a point) are leaving you guys in the dust and year in and year out releasing new content, gaining new players and competing with each other . It's a fact by the amount of players playing MMORPGS that there has never been a better time to be playing them. How do you compete? You leave you guys in the dust and keep making quality games and xpacs.

     As for your cute bandwagon catch phrase "whales" give it a rest. Nobody cares you cant afford to spend money, why do you care how others spend theirs money on a hobby? Sorry Swtor has made over $500 MILLION in revenue since launch and that's not because of a "few whales", same goes for WoW, FFXIV, ESO and every other mmorpg out today.

     Give it a rest MMORPGS are passing you by either adapt and enjoy the huge selection of games we have access to or find a new hobby. I guess copy/pasting the same threads every week could be a hobby...

     You are being left behind and that is great news for the industry!
    Post edited by NukeGamer on
  • RattenmannRattenmann ReitmehringMember UncommonPosts: 613
    I take quality over "free" any time of the day.

    Not a single "free" game is really free if you want the best quality. And If you take that quality you pay 10x more then any PTP game asks and STILL have less quality.

    So really: No competition. Free can never win.

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • zaberfangxzaberfangx MAMember UncommonPosts: 1,602
    edited October 2015
    Rhoklaw said:
    Sure, F2P is great cause it's free, but along with that comes...

    • Poor Customer Support
    • Shallow Content
    • Cash Shop Shenanigans
    • Hidden Paywalls
    • Increased Amount Of BOTs, Cheaters, Gold Farmers And So On
    • The Worst Communities
    So yeah, enjoy F2P, where you get what you pay for, or rather, what you don't pay for.
    Sub game out there only a few that have poor support all of then same problem time to time. and so I played wow for 6 years the communitties in f2p are the same level as wow player very big ego driving players, then we got bots, gold farmer, cheaters you name it they are there.

    Why I'm point out wow? I played it more then any sub game. But I know it's just 1 game other then the few sub games are out there but is not only f2p that have very close to all the same problem.

    But not saying your wrong, it's how mmo are in general of all type.
    Post edited by zaberfangx on
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Kopogero said:

    ...one that players will know years from now will still receive updates, content, and so forth. 


    I'm not entirely convinced that the majority of today's gamers care about that or even want that.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    NukeGamer said:

    Any MMO including the ones that call themselves "free to play" need a vast majority of the player base to pay something towards the game's upkeep and  profitability.  
    uh? Said who?

    You just need a small fraction of whales. No f2p games have "a vast majority of the player base to pay something". 
    Uh? Said who?  You?  

    Btw he said mmo not your mobile phone games.  

    I'd love to see your proof that he is wrong about mmos. 
    Said Gamasutra, and the devs of MMO Puzzle pirates.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132437/what_are_the_rewards_of_.php

    and i quote "that the average revenue per user (ARPU) is between one and two dollars a month, but only about 10% of his player base has ever paid him anything. As a result, he says, approximately 5,000 gamers are generating the $230,000 in revenue he sees each month."

    Another gamasutra article:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?page=6

    and i quote "While you might guess that Hi-Rez doesn't make as much money as some of these more exploitative studios, it's notable that around 10 percent of Tribes: Ascend players choose to pay money -- a figure that is much larger than the 1, 3, and 5 percents that I've heard from the majority of other free-to-play developers. Harris reasons that this is down to trust, and players feeling like they are getting their money's worth."
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Rhoklaw said:
    Sure, F2P is great cause it's free, but along with that comes...

    • Poor Customer Support
    • Shallow Content
    • Cash Shop Shenanigans
    • Hidden Paywalls
    • Increased Amount Of BOTs, Cheaters, Gold Farmers And So On
    • The Worst Communities
    So yeah, enjoy F2P, where you get what you pay for, or rather, what you don't pay for.
     I'd put Mabinogi or Hearthstone up against the majority of sub games any day in most of those categories. Do you have links to support that or is this just another "I hate that option so everything about it is obviously wrong/bad/inferior" thing?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247

    I take quality over "free" any time of the day.

    Not a single "free" game is really free if you want the best quality. And If you take that quality you pay 10x more then any PTP game asks and STILL have less quality.

    So really: No competition. Free can never win.
    Unless you're halfway decent at math and moderately honest with yourself. If so, then when looking at a gamer who spends 3-9 months in an MMO, F2P seems to beat subscription in price, even when buying extras that you feel are what make the quality difference. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Loktofeit said:
    Kopogero said:

    ...one that players will know years from now will still receive updates, content, and so forth. 


    I'm not entirely convinced that the majority of today's gamers care about that or even want that.

    I don't ... there are so many games and why would i care if a particular one will get updates & content years from now?

    Heck, i don't even need to care 6 months from now. It is highly unlikely that i will have no entertainment and have to reply on this single game.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    I don't think every MMO has to be F2P to be viable.

    We saw the same with software a decade ago, everything was going to be open source and every model would be ad driven or donation driven.

    Yet paid software is still around, people still prefer quality over short term goals. It isn't one or the other that survived, they coexist and have done so for years.
    I'd agree overall, though there's a pretty big difference between the lofty unproven ideal of donation-driven open source compared with the consistently profitable F2P model.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309
    NukeGamer said:

    Any MMO including the ones that call themselves "free to play" need a vast majority of the player base to pay something towards the game's upkeep and  profitability.  
    uh? Said who?

    You just need a small fraction of whales. No f2p games have "a vast majority of the player base to pay something". 
    Uh? Said who?  You?  

    Btw he said mmo not your mobile phone games.  

    I'd love to see your proof that he is wrong about mmos. 
    Said Gamasutra, and the devs of MMO Puzzle pirates.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132437/what_are_the_rewards_of_.php

    and i quote "that the average revenue per user (ARPU) is between one and two dollars a month, but only about 10% of his player base has ever paid him anything. As a result, he says, approximately 5,000 gamers are generating the $230,000 in revenue he sees each month."

    Another gamasutra article:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?page=6

    and i quote "While you might guess that Hi-Rez doesn't make as much money as some of these more exploitative studios, it's notable that around 10 percent of Tribes: Ascend players choose to pay money -- a figure that is much larger than the 1, 3, and 5 percents that I've heard from the majority of other free-to-play developers. Harris reasons that this is down to trust, and players feeling like they are getting their money's worth."
    Haha $46/month equals a whale!  

    Your facts are from a 2009 article about some puzzle pirate game?  

    The 2nd article just copies from the first article.  

    So in four years Swtor has generated $500 MILLION in revenue.  If by your links $50="whale" Swtor has 10,000,000 whales...I wouldn't call that a "few".  
  • DukeTyrionDukeTyrion LondonMember UncommonPosts: 89
    The problem is, the Whales are eating the shoals ... in other words, the software companies find chasing the few big spenders to be more lucrative than a lower steady stream from multiple users.

    However, I also believe that the WoW numbers (and recent huge subscription drop) proves that there is a large enough 'shoal' out there for one or two of the big software companies to not be one of the whalers!
  • DrisdaneDrisdane Lafayette, LAMember UncommonPosts: 97
    I would love to see a game with:

    1. The crafting depth of Vanguard, SWG, FFXIV, and Ryzom
    2. Depth to harvesting like FFXIV and Ryzom
    3. A plethora of extra fluff to pass the time between raids at max level like WoW
    4. Extensive depth and customization to skills like Ryzom.
    5. Mechanic driven raids like WoW, EQ2, and Wildstar
    6. Story depth like SW:TOR, EQ, EQ2
    7. Cutscenes and voice acting like SW:TOR and TSW
    8. More grouping required content to bring back social gameplay and working together like EQ2 at launch
    9. Amazing, customizable player housing like EQ2
    10. Graphics like Archeage

    Is that too much to ask for?
  • DeivosDeivos Member EpicPosts: 3,692
    Kopogero said:

    ...and the simple answer is by being a better free to play product. That is as simple as it can be put. We are seeing a big shift in monetizing models. Truth is one can only do as much with a game to bring an audience and what's even more challenging when it comes to the MMORPG market is the fact players are "invested" in other MMORPG's.

    http://flippfly.com/news/some-concerns-about-free-to-play/

    This is the commentary the Flippfly dev duo had on their chosen monetization strategy.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Not In ESOMember EpicPosts: 2,229

    The million $ question, how do you compete with FREE?

    Does anyone else see the irony in this question?
    Hint: "There's no free lunch"
    Its really more of how do you compete with "You twenty-five people's meals are on the house as Mr. Creosote just spent enough on one meal to pay our operational costs for a year."


    image

    "To be frank, I think his world had vanished long before he ever entered it, but I will say: He certainly sustained the illusion with a marvelous grace!"



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