I guess I am just gonna have to accept Pay 2 win cash shops, and gambling boxes lol.

13

Comments

  • ShaniaRebornShaniaReborn Member UncommonPosts: 64
    @GeezerGamer ;   "It's not winning, it's faster".... LMAO!!!!!!  game, set, match   Exactly
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,764
    @GeezerGamer ;   "It's not winning, it's faster".... LMAO!!!!!!  game, set, match   Exactly
    Yeah, because that means anything at all? Game, set, match? Do you really think you've won anything here or proven a point? That's the thing with you people. It's all about winning something over another person and coming out on top. Is that how you self-validate? What exactly do you think you won here.
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  • CalexCalex Central, NJMember UncommonPosts: 99
    edited October 2015
    F2P sucks and I will never accept it. There aren't many options out there right now but looks like there will be a couple games coming soonish.
    Post edited by Calex on
  • ShaniaRebornShaniaReborn Member UncommonPosts: 64
    Torval said:
    @GeezerGamer ;   "It's not winning, it's faster".... LMAO!!!!!!  game, set, match   Exactly
    Yeah, because that means anything at all? Game, set, match? Do you really think you've won anything here or proven a point? That's the thing with you people. It's all about winning something over another person and coming out on top. Is that how you self-validate? What exactly do you think you won here.

    What did I win?  Nothing.  Just point proven.  Doesn't matter if the win or advantage is temp or permanent, if an edge is given, IMHO, that is P2W.  No where did I say anyone has to agree with me, after all it is my opinion.  For example, look at Vindictus.  You can spend $600 to buy 3,000 stat points and max out every skill in the game.  It would take you months of play time to earn all those points.  IMHO, if that isn't an example of P2W, there isn't one.

    If the F2P games were nothing but cosmetic items, we would not be having this chat.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,764
    What point? What do you think you've proven? That you think something is pay to win? Of course you have. To you it's pay to win because you think they shouldn't charge for it. So what? That's MY point. You could be right and it still wouldn't matter. No one enjoying the game really cares. If they really did they wouldn't put up with it and find something else. Actions mean more than words.

    And we would be having this chat regardless. There has always been something the perpetually disgruntled don't like.
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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,883
    edited October 2015
    Torval said:
    @GeezerGamer ;   "It's not winning, it's faster".... LMAO!!!!!!  game, set, match   Exactly
    Yeah, because that means anything at all? Game, set, match? Do you really think you've won anything here or proven a point? That's the thing with you people. It's all about winning something over another person and coming out on top. Is that how you self-validate? What exactly do you think you won here.
    "the thing with you people"
    You really said that?

    I don't really care so much about P2W in games anymore. If I'm having fun, great, if not, bye.

    But come on....."Pay to faster"?

    WTF is that? If the game is P2W, Just call it P2W and tell people you are playing it anyway. But let's stop pretending it isn't something it is.....or at least in a grey area. I mean.....Isn't it easier to just respond to 

    "This game is P2W!"

    with 

    "Yeah, so what. I like it."

    Then to come up with some semantics game like "P2FSTR"? Because now you have to explain What winning is...What faster is and how Faster is not winning.......Yeah GL with that.
    Post edited by GeezerGamer on
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,764
    Yes, like p2w, pay to faster means nothing to me. I suppose what they might be trying to do is differentiate what is being labeled as p2w from other games they perceive as gating power and advantage behind a paywall in a competitive environment. Again, still subjective, it's just the goal posts that have moved.

    For people like the one I quoted they view everything as a competition, even leveling and advancement. If someone can level faster they're winning even if that's some arbitrary goal they've created in their imagination. So they label it as p2w. It seems ridiculous that someone would differentiate it with a label 'pay to faster'.

    For the 'pay to faster' person maybe they consider p2w having to fork over cash to be able to play in a pvp environment or be raid viable. So they consider accelerated leveling as acceptable. It is ridiculous to them that someone would put their subjective p2w definition in the same category as leveling advancement. They need to create another term to differentiate.

    It's not so weird when I look at it that way. And that is why it's pointless for people, like the one I quoted, to throw their imaginary rocks. Outside of venting their bitter frustration it accomplishes nothing. People who have fun still play the game. If someone really doesn't like how a company charges for the game, then they should find a different one. There are a ton out there now.

    And that's the long winded essay version of my above posts.
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  • NovuhzNovuhz CoimbraMember UncommonPosts: 30
    Pay 2 Be Faster is not Pay 2 Win.
  • ShaniaRebornShaniaReborn Member UncommonPosts: 64
    edited October 2015
    @Torval ;  Please, I get your point I really do.  If a game releases with a cash shop and they are selling P2W or P2F or what ever term people want to throw at it, I am cool with it.  What I am NOT cool with is having 100s of thousands of players vested in a game and then the company changes it's business model to F2P or F2F or what ever you want to call it.  It changes the entire fabric of the game and community worse than any class updates ever will.  Again, new game... I'm cool with it.  But if your pig is SO ugly that you feel you need to put lipstick on her to keep her viable in the yard, at the end of the day, you still got an ugly pig and it ends up costing you a good portion of the barn yard.  I mean seriously, if you are trying to win the prize at the state fair, sometimes you just need to turn your current pig into bacon and go find a new pig and try again next year.
    Post edited by ShaniaReborn on
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,883
    Novuhz said:
    Pay 2 Be Faster is not Pay 2 Win.
    In what game?
    This one? maybe not.
    GW2? No it's not at all.
    ArcheAge? Maybe it is depending on when the next patch comes out and what's on it.
    Any game with resourse and/or territory control....I'd say you'd be dead wrong. 
  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAMember UncommonPosts: 1,613
    wildstar still has all the glaring problems of what makes it a bad game to begin with. You may see a influx of new players for awhile but eventually people are going to get sick of the combat and how lackluster the general game is and move on. I highly doubt most people will even bother getting to end game in Wildstar so regardless of rune changes most people just wont care because this game is terrible once you get past the newness of the combat and how much running around you have to do. Not to mention the slow progression from boring kill tasks and limited story style questing. Im one of those people who subbed and played a few times and once I get to about level 20 Im so bored with the game I leave. Pay to win is the least of wildstars worries. 

    I love the pig analogy by shania because to me this describes wildstar to the Tee. You can dress it up with corky humor and a half-assed attempt at action combat with worse than wow questing and artstyle and at the end of the day its still just a dud of a game. 
  • RidrithRidrith Mountain View, ARMember UncommonPosts: 464
    moonbound said:
    Ridrith said:
    None of what this is stating is true.  Gambling on rune slots is just that, it's gambling.  You don't NEED to min-max every piece of your gear to be competitive in raids or high level dungeons.  Dungeon gear and runes will take you all the way into raids and what you find there will take you through to the rest of the content.  If you want to have an edge over people (and who cares, really?  You might deal another 10-50k damage than the guy next to you, but there's 20 man raids.  You aren't carrying the group.) sure.  Waste your money or grind out gold for that if that's what you want.  It's not pay to win at all.  It's pay to min-max.  You can be perfectly fine with what you find in game and follow the natural progression of items and play all the way and on up into the latest content/raids without issue.

    The only REAL problem right now is drop rates.  Those need to be looked at for rune fragments of certain types. 
    You forgetting one key factor those who do spend more will out perform you, and that is a basic pay to win advantage method. People do notice when your playing the same class/builds and someone is out performing you in pve and pvp.
    I can't help but facepalm at this response.  They aren't going to outperform you in any meaningful way.  The difference between the stats will be negligible at end game, especially because there are SOFT and HARD caps on stats.  You can reach those caps easily using the rune slots that are rolled up on your gear to begin with.  Not to mention runes are relatively easy to get and to reroll into a slot that you'd like.  You can use in-game currency to do it (which isn't that expensive) and you get plenty of service tokens by just playing the game.  Do your own research, play the game if you want to play it instead of crying pay to win.

    The Iron Circle Guild - | PC Gaming | Tabletop Gaming | Good Company!
  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 1,959
    DMKano said:
    Again since there is no agreement on what exactly p2w means - you can call anything p2w, it's pretty meaningless 
    As I have stated elsewhere, Pay to Win (P2W) is a derogatory term (i.e. insult). It is used to indicate that someone doesn't like something, it transfers that meaning fairly well.
  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 franklin, NYMember UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited October 2015
    DMKano said:
    Again since there is no agreement on what exactly p2w means - you can call anything p2w, it's pretty meaningless 
    As I have stated elsewhere, Pay to Win (P2W) is a derogatory term (i.e. insult). It is used to indicate that someone doesn't like something, it transfers that meaning fairly well.
    It is not,  it is describe a business model that plays on peoples emotions. Which happens to give people advantage, faster exp, redoing crafting, better chances to get stuff, ect ect ect.

    I suppose though, now that i think about it, your right. It is used that way quite a bit. With some people caring enough to take offence at it, if their game is called that. I guess what changed my mind from the first comment, was DMKano, he is a perfect example of that.

    As far as the business model goes, it is a good one to make money. It also is well known enough, that people have accepted it.

    I just never will. I don't accept anything of the sort. It is un regulated gambling is what it is. And un regulated gambling is not a good thing at all.

    I am sure eventually the Government will have to step in and fix it all. Esp when people start dying over it. Which will happen, if it already didn't. Because of the large sums of money involved in these stupid ass 9 games. 

    Such as, some one playing a joke on some friend, and deleted his account, or gives his stuff away. Or the account was stolen, and the person knows who stole it. 

    Esp in games like Ache age, where you die to other people. 
    Post edited by makasouleater69 on
  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 1,959
    DMKano said:
    Again since there is no agreement on what exactly p2w means - you can call anything p2w, it's pretty meaningless 
    As I have stated elsewhere, Pay to Win (P2W) is a derogatory term (i.e. insult). It is used to indicate that someone doesn't like something, it transfers that meaning fairly well.
    It is not,  it is describe a business model that plays on peoples emotions. Which happens to give people advantage, faster exp, redoing crafting, better chances to get stuff, ect ect ect.

    I suppose though, now that i think about it, your right. It is used that way quite a bit. With some people caring enough to take offence at it, if their game is called that. I guess what changed my mind from the first comment, was DMKano, he is a perfect example of that.

    As far as the business model goes, it is a good one to make money. It also is well known enough, that people have accepted it.

    I just never will. I don't accept anything of the sort. It is un regulated gambling is what it is. And un regulated gambling is not a good thing at all.

    I am sure eventually the Government will have to step in and fix it all. Esp when people start dying over it. Which will happen, if it already didn't. Because of the large sums of money involved in these stupid ass 9 games. 

    Such as, some one playing a joke on some friend, and deleted his account, or gives his stuff away. Or the account was stolen, and the person knows who stole it. 

    Esp in games like Ache age, where you die to other people. 
    Lets clear this up right away.. there is no P2W business model... unless you are referring to it in a very general sense... to mean that selling things is a business model.

    Business Model is defined as: a design for the successful operation of a business, identifying revenue sources, customer base, products, and details of financing.

    P2P is a business model, also known as the direct service model.
    F2P is a business model, also known as software as a service (SAAS) 

    P2W is how people describe the monetization of a game, if they are unhappy with it. There is no specified formula to be P2W, nor any inherent monetary advantages. It would be like describing 'Agressive' as a business model.

  • HeraseHerase LondonMember RarePosts: 899
    edited October 2015
    Sooo, has anyone tested this or seen how much it costs? Cause we seem to be taking words someone heard by someone else, somewhere. I've looked over that shop like 600 times, because i've earned enough coins in-game to buy what I want from the cash shop (only game I've played that offers this, if people could name more?) and haven't seen anything related to what the op is talking about :/
    Post edited by Herase on
  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 franklin, NYMember UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited October 2015
    Herase said:
    Sooo, has anyone tested this or seen how much it costs? Cause we seem to be taking words someone heard by someone else, somewhere. I've looked over that shop like 600 times, because i've earned enough coins in-game to buy what I want from the cash shop (only game I've played that offers this, if people could name more?) and haven't seen anything related to what the op is talking about :/
    Well no ones gonna test it, unless they have some serious cash to waste, because they arent going to let you have a copy of their server files so you could host your own.

    So you got extra money here is the test. 

    Start a account with no money.

    Record everything.

    Start account and spend 3000.

    Record everything.

    Let us know which had more stuff, higher level, more wins at pvp, more general deaths, ect.

    In my theory, the account you spent 3000 on, is going to have a significant amount of more stuff, a way higher level, way more wins at pvp, and 0 deaths. Also record your dps, ect. 

    Pay 2 Win, Pay 2 have more, Pay 2 have a advantage, Pay 2 just be a general better character. What ever you want to call it. A lot of people don't care, I happen to. It bothers me when I see some one run by, with max stuff, and i know for a fact he didn't earn it by being good at the game, or even playing the game much, he earned it because he dumped a bunch of money in the game. 

    Example would be, everquest and the people who earned their epic weapon from playing the game, great feeling, took a long time and a bunch of team work. In wild star, you can just by pass all that time it would take, and just buy your way to epic. 

    As I have already said it is accepted. In my day of mmos, people who bought ever quest accounts for 2000 bucks, were looked down upon, and shunned and laughed at. 

    So I still shun and laugh at people, who spend a bunch of money to cheat in a game. I know you don't think its cheating, but there is no other way to look at it. 

    It is the same thing, as sticking another coin into a old school arcade game to start over. 

    I point and laugh at the person who dumped 400 worth of quarters in the game to beat it, when another person could beat it with 1 quarter. 

    People who cash shop mmo, have 0 respect from me. 
    Post edited by makasouleater69 on
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,764
    So I still shun and laugh at people, who spend a bunch of money to cheat in a game. I know you don't think its cheating, but there is no other way to look at it. 

    It is the same thing, as sticking another coin into a old school arcade game to start over. 

    I point and laugh at the person who dumped 400 worth of quarters in the game to beat it, when another person could beat it with 1 quarter. 

    People who cash shop mmo, have 0 respect from me. 
    Then you should probably move on and find a different game. If all you can do is mock the community and flamebait then this probably isn't a good fit for you. Do you really think anyone here or in game wants or needs your respect? If you can't be respectful then your respect holds little value.

    I don't mind how they sell their game. The game is fun to me. The in game community seems pretty nice. That's what is important to me.
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  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 franklin, NYMember UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Torval said:
    So I still shun and laugh at people, who spend a bunch of money to cheat in a game. I know you don't think its cheating, but there is no other way to look at it. 

    It is the same thing, as sticking another coin into a old school arcade game to start over. 

    I point and laugh at the person who dumped 400 worth of quarters in the game to beat it, when another person could beat it with 1 quarter. 

    People who cash shop mmo, have 0 respect from me. 
    Then you should probably move on and find a different game. If all you can do is mock the community and flamebait then this probably isn't a good fit for you. Do you really think anyone here or in game wants or needs your respect? If you can't be respectful then your respect holds little value.

    I don't mind how they sell their game. The game is fun to me. The in game community seems pretty nice. That's what is important to me.
    Well that was the whole point of this post. By the time i made it to the 3rd post, I already decided not to accept their pay 2 win business model, of gambling boxes, and exploiting people who compulsive spend. 
  • NeuriaNeuria Member UncommonPosts: 9
    edited October 2015
    Torval said:
    So I still shun and laugh at people, who spend a bunch of money to cheat in a game. I know you don't think its cheating, but there is no other way to look at it. 

    It is the same thing, as sticking another coin into a old school arcade game to start over. 

    I point and laugh at the person who dumped 400 worth of quarters in the game to beat it, when another person could beat it with 1 quarter. 

    People who cash shop mmo, have 0 respect from me. 
    Then you should probably move on and find a different game. If all you can do is mock the community and flamebait then this probably isn't a good fit for you. Do you really think anyone here or in game wants or needs your respect? If you can't be respectful then your respect holds little value.

    I don't mind how they sell their game. The game is fun to me. The in game community seems pretty nice. That's what is important to me.
    Well that was the whole point of this post. By the time i made it to the 3rd post, I already decided not to accept their pay 2 win business model, of gambling boxes, and exploiting people who compulsive spend. 
    Except compulsive spenders will be 'victimized' everywhere in this world. It's optional nonsense and saying "I'm compulsive" doesn't mean it isn't the spender's fault, that's not how things work. As for other things, if you can't take a few days to work for something, then the only MMO you must enjoy is WoW.

    No offense with the ad hom, but I just fail to see your argument. The game practically hands everything to you, and then you get to endgame and actually have to put in a shred of effort. I just do not understand how this is Pay 2 Win. But after reading through this thread, people seem to have funny definitions of what P2W even is.

    But I guess that's a similar case to those whom adopt a phrase they know little about and keep pushing it a certain way until their brain hard-codes it as a definition of fact.

    Pay 2 Win was something reserved exclusively for competitive games for the -longest-. It was only recently tossed in to describe microtransactions with MMOs when Free 2 Play started to become a trend for them. But then everyone starts losing sight of what it /means/.

    P2W implies that there are things to can obtain that otherwise cannot be obtained unless you pay, that grant an advantage over other players. As we get exp boosters and other nonsense without paying a dime, this game is not P2W. It's also PvE focused, there are no "Do more damage in PvP" boosters. -That- is what would be considered Pay 2 Win. You can literally get from level 1 to level cap and geared to raid in less than a month, even on a normal schedule. That's generous compared to other MMOs, so I just cannot sympathize with people who think the ability to buy boosters (you can otherwise obtain without spending a cent) is P2W.

    Especially with the Omnibit currency system, which you get tons of as you play; which can be used in place of RL currency for things in their store.

    There's literally no reasons to complain unless you simply want everything handed to you. Otherwise, you're seeing their business model all wrong.

    EDIT: The only thing I could see people getting bent out of shape with, is the Sig status and what that grants you. But I personally believe that's fair, because you otherwise don't have to pay a thing. It's generally what MMOs do after they go F2P; give players an option to subscribe still and keep the experience they've known in the past before it was even F2P. Think of it more like the game never changed, except now you can play it for free if you want and simply get less benefits.

    Even as a F2P player, you can still find the exp boosters and junk, so... lol
    Post edited by Neuria on
  • theglenn3theglenn3 York, PAMember UncommonPosts: 26
    Until it's not a huge source of cash flow they will move a bunch of failing wasteful games to this model.  The only way to stop P2W is to stop paying to win.  Which means its only gonna get worse not better.

    Optimizing PC games for consoles is kinda like outfitting your car for a bike trail.

  • NeuriaNeuria Member UncommonPosts: 9
    theglenn3 said:
    Until it's not a huge source of cash flow they will move a bunch of failing wasteful games to this model.  The only way to stop P2W is to stop paying to win.  Which means its only gonna get worse not better.
    You uh.. ..You realize we're talking about a game that's not Pay 2 Win, right?
  • theglenn3theglenn3 York, PAMember UncommonPosts: 26
    Neuria said:
    theglenn3 said:
    Until it's not a huge source of cash flow they will move a bunch of failing wasteful games to this model.  The only way to stop P2W is to stop paying to win.  Which means its only gonna get worse not better.
    You uh.. ..You realize we're talking about a game that's not Pay 2 Win, right?
    O_o ok.

    Optimizing PC games for consoles is kinda like outfitting your car for a bike trail.

  • HeraseHerase LondonMember RarePosts: 899
    Herase said:
    Sooo, has anyone tested this or seen how much it costs? Cause we seem to be taking words someone heard by someone else, somewhere. I've looked over that shop like 600 times, because i've earned enough coins in-game to buy what I want from the cash shop (only game I've played that offers this, if people could name more?) and haven't seen anything related to what the op is talking about :/

    Let us know which had more stuff, higher level, more wins at pvp, more general deaths, ect.

    In my theory, the account you spent 3000 on, is going to have a significant amount of more stuff, a way higher level, way more wins at pvp, and 0 deaths. Also record your dps, ect. 

    Pay 2 Win, Pay 2 have more, Pay 2 have a advantage, Pay 2 just be a general better character.
    but what exactly on the store cause the said things above? As i said I've looked over that store and haven't seen anything that could cause what you said above, especially 0 deaths and top dps.

     I'm genuinely asking, just so you know.
  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 franklin, NYMember UncommonPosts: 1,096
    Neuria said:
    Torval said:
    So I still shun and laugh at people, who spend a bunch of money to cheat in a game. I know you don't think its cheating, but there is no other way to look at it. 

    It is the same thing, as sticking another coin into a old school arcade game to start over. 

    I point and laugh at the person who dumped 400 worth of quarters in the game to beat it, when another person could beat it with 1 quarter. 

    People who cash shop mmo, have 0 respect from me. 
    Then you should probably move on and find a different game. If all you can do is mock the community and flamebait then this probably isn't a good fit for you. Do you really think anyone here or in game wants or needs your respect? If you can't be respectful then your respect holds little value.

    I don't mind how they sell their game. The game is fun to me. The in game community seems pretty nice. That's what is important to me.
    Well that was the whole point of this post. By the time i made it to the 3rd post, I already decided not to accept their pay 2 win business model, of gambling boxes, and exploiting people who compulsive spend. 
    Except compulsive spenders will be 'victimized' everywhere in this world. It's optional nonsense and saying "I'm compulsive" doesn't mean it isn't the spender's fault, that's not how things work. As for other things, if you can't take a few days to work for something, then the only MMO you must enjoy is WoW.

    No offense with the ad hom, but I just fail to see your argument. The game practically hands everything to you, and then you get to endgame and actually have to put in a shred of effort. I just do not understand how this is Pay 2 Win. But after reading through this thread, people seem to have funny definitions of what P2W even is.

    But I guess that's a similar case to those whom adopt a phrase they know little about and keep pushing it a certain way until their brain hard-codes it as a definition of fact.

    Pay 2 Win was something reserved exclusively for competitive games for the -longest-. It was only recently tossed in to describe microtransactions with MMOs when Free 2 Play started to become a trend for them. But then everyone starts losing sight of what it /means/.

    P2W implies that there are things to can obtain that otherwise cannot be obtained unless you pay, that grant an advantage over other players. As we get exp boosters and other nonsense without paying a dime, this game is not P2W. It's also PvE focused, there are no "Do more damage in PvP" boosters. -That- is what would be considered Pay 2 Win. You can literally get from level 1 to level cap and geared to raid in less than a month, even on a normal schedule. That's generous compared to other MMOs, so I just cannot sympathize with people who think the ability to buy boosters (you can otherwise obtain without spending a cent) is P2W.

    Especially with the Omnibit currency system, which you get tons of as you play; which can be used in place of RL currency for things in their store.

    There's literally no reasons to complain unless you simply want everything handed to you. Otherwise, you're seeing their business model all wrong.

    EDIT: The only thing I could see people getting bent out of shape with, is the Sig status and what that grants you. But I personally believe that's fair, because you otherwise don't have to pay a thing. It's generally what MMOs do after they go F2P; give players an option to subscribe still and keep the experience they've known in the past before it was even F2P. Think of it more like the game never changed, except now you can play it for free if you want and simply get less benefits.

    Even as a F2P player, you can still find the exp boosters and junk, so... lol
    I dont accept F2P, at all, in any form. It is garbage, and as I said is gambling box, pay 2 win retardation. But you go for it. I am happy you accept this horrible business model. I am done with MMOs as far as they go. They are all f2p, pay 2 win, cash shop, gambling box garbage. 

    I think a monthly payment of 15-40 bucks, with 0 cash shop is the more respectable, better model. I am just glad there are survival games. I will enjoy my Ark, for 30 bucks box, and 40 a month for my dedicated server. Where I control everything there is to do with the game, with the ability to make any content I want for the game, because it comes with a editor. You enjoy your Free 2 play linear mmo. 
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