Sub based vs Free to Play

Jermzy

How much would you be willing to spend on a 'good' subscription based game?  Or do you think most new MMO's should use the free to play models and why?

15 years ago, most sub based games cost around 15/month to play, and they still cost the same.  Inflation would have it at around 20/month today.  

Myself, I would gladly pay the $20 if it was a good solid game.  Have yet to see one that is worth that the last few years though.  Even the free to play ones.  In the end, it is just my opinion, that a good free to play game actually costs more than most sub-based games in order to be competitive or have the cool fluffy stuff.

Anireth

A F2P game costs exactly as much as you are willing to spend on. Some "feel forced" to spent more, but thats the same with everything. Peer pressure, advertising, insecurity/ (missing) self-conciousness, whatever.

Note also that the main difference between sub-based games and F2P is the sub itself. Cash shop, paid expansions, paying for services like name change etc., it's all there anyways. And as you said yourself, they hardly have the quality many players would like to see, too.

nariusseldon

Jermzy said:

How much would you be willing to spend on a 'good' subscription based game?  Or do you think most new MMO's should use the free to play models and why?

zero. I don't play sub-based games because there are plenty good games that require no subs.

New MMOs? They can be f2p, they can be b2p ... i will look at each and decide. But a sub ... nope. I would much rather play  a series of single player games. 

gervaise1

15 years ago sub based games cost c. $10. This paid for the online connection only; new content was paid for.

People "accepted" that network stuff was expensive: the connection, servers, server techs etc. Search engines were not free to put things into perspective. How much would you pay for a "good" search engine with no ads? Same deal in many ways.

Network costs fell. People grumbled. NCSoft had a brainwave and decided to offer "included content" - well tbh AC was already doing this but NCSoft made a big thing of offering big content patches. That quietened things down for a while. Then NCSoft launched GW1; truly demonstrating that the sub was no longer needed for the original purpose.

Fast forward and Blizzard have absolutely demonstrated that a sub guarantees nothing. It is also - potentially - bad news for companies. They spend money on patch after patch and once in a blue moon the subscription freeloaders get onboard and play through a few years worth of patches for the price of a sub. Subscription freeloaders! And the other problem they have: people zerg content and leave.

So my preference these days is not to sub but to buy the content. And the mantra is simple: no content, no money; the flip side being no money, no content. And if you stop and think about it this is how most of the economy works. You don't pay a shop every month and hope they have something on the shelves when you go in. You don't pay Ford money so that their designer can develop and build the car you might buy in a few years time.

CrazKanuk

I think that Destiny has shown that they can successfully run a game and charge for expansion content. I think the market will pay that way. I know I'm ok with it. So far I've put like $150 into Destiny which is, essentially, a subscription. If a game releases, sells you their retail box (B2P) and then charges for, I don't know, quarterly? content updates, I might view that as an ideal situation. Developers would get reliable, consistent, income as long as they continue to produce compelling content. 

As far as subscriptions go, I think $15 a month is still fair, especially considering the F2P alternatives out there. 

nariusseldon

gervaise1 said:

Fast forward and Blizzard have absolutely demonstrated that a sub guarantees nothing. 

and also that Blizz can afford to give out lots of content for free. Just look at Diablo 3. You can like the game, or hate it.

But you can't deny that it has lots and lots of free content patches. So far, if you pay for the base game, and ONE expansion, you can new content essentially couple of month. The recent patch has a new zone (plus mobs), new system of using legendary item powers, new sets with new powers, and things like that.

In fact, i would say something like the D3 model has much better entertainment value (for me, of course) than a sub-MMO. 

Nanfoodle

F2P or P2P it matters little. As long as what they give you for the price is fair. No P2W and any model is good. 

eye_m

won't play P2P games at all.  The fact that I am paying for time means that I feel compelled to make the most of that time and I'm not interested in that behavior.

Won't play P2P failed into F2P games either.  The games might be good but the shiny is all wore off by the time it's F2P so I've lost interest.

Haven't played much F2P. I've tried a couple, but never lasted  long with them.  I think it's probably because I have no investment into the game, and I'm not about to invest in the gameshop until I know I'll be sticking around.

B2P is my preferred setup with paid expansions and all sorts of frivolous items to buy in their gameshop. I'm not a fan of P2W but I don't play a whole lot of Pv ePeen so minor advantages don't matter to me (exp boosters and such).

Wizardry

eye_m said:

won't play P2P games at all.  The fact that I am paying for time means that I feel compelled to make the most of that time and I'm not interested in that behavior.

Won't play P2P failed into F2P games either.  The games might be good but the shiny is all wore off by the time it's F2P so I've lost interest.

Haven't played much F2P. I've tried a couple, but never lasted  long with them.  I think it's probably because I have no investment into the game, and I'm not about to invest in the gameshop until I know I'll be sticking around.

B2P is my preferred setup with paid expansions and all sorts of frivolous items to buy in their gameshop. I'm not a fan of P2W but I don't play a whole lot of Pv ePeen so minor advantages don't matter to me (exp boosters and such).

You must have missed the part where F2p is NOT actually FREE.They will even at the lowest form have restrictions that will SLOW your game down ,meaning you are WASTING time.

Many would say time is more valuable than money.I find it hard to believe such a statement anyhow,you play games because you want to play it,if you don't want to play it ,then  why would you sub to it?

This analogy is like saying "oh my god i bought a ticket to the movies,i feel compelled to go".No kidding,that is why you bought the ticket,you wanted to see the movie lmao.You don't come out of the movie saying "i don't want to pay for movies because then i feel compelled to actually watch it".

Wizardry

Cable TV or cell phone?

D owe then say ,we want those for free because if i have to pay for them,i feel compelled to use them?

Jermzy

A lot of good points.  I guess i am different in the aspect i would rather pay a sub and expect new good content in a timely fashion rather than buying the no sub game and having them release expansions to quickly in order to get more money. But then again, i enjoy the old grinding games, maybe i am a glutten for punishment.  

nariusseldon

Wizardry said:

You must have missed the part where F2p is NOT actually FREE.They will even at the lowest form have restrictions that will SLOW your game down ,meaning you are WASTING time.

You said it yourself .. wasting time, not wasting money.

Plus, playing games is wasting time anyway. Is wasting time in a sub-game "better" than wasting it in a f2p game? Or watching tv?

VestigeGamer

I prefer paying once a month and forgetting about it.  Kind of like my phone bill, my cable bill, and rent.  I may not spend every night at home, but I pay the same each month to live here.  I may or may not watch 3-5 hours of TV in one week (football season I watch it more).  I still pay the same amount each month and it is there when I want to use it.  I have unlimited long distance with my phone.  I feel no compulsion to call everyone I know who is out of town every day, or even week.  However, when I do want to call them, I pick up the phone without a worry.

Convenience.  I'd rather pay and be done rather than worry about budgeting each and every time I log on.  I don't play MMORPGs to shop in cash shops.

Octagon7711

Pay model is just one consideration.  Other factors have to be taken into account.  There is no guarantee that a sub game is better just because you pay a monthly fee.  You have to make a lot of assumptions on what they do with the money and how much is being actually put back into the game.

How many successful games exist on today's sub only model?   What's changed that will make them successful now on just a sub model?

As to inflation, MMO's today have a lot more competition now.  Increased competition drives prices down.  

IMO, most people will ask what does a $30 a month sub game have that B2p/F2P/$15 subs, don't have?  Sure a select few will be willing to pay such a price for a tailor made game but will it be enough players to keep the servers full? 

gervaise1

VestigeGamer said:

I prefer paying once a month and forgetting about it. 
<snip>
Convenience.  I'd rather pay and be done rather than worry about budgeting each and every time I log on.  I don't play MMORPGs to shop in cash shops.

An attitude, I suggest, that allowed Blizzard to take a 14 month content holiday - broken only by a paid expansion. In fact if you were subscribed to WoW for the duration the cost of patch 6.2 (WoD was a paid expansion and 6.1 ... yeah Blizzard themselves subsequently said that 6.1 wasn't)was something in the region of $30. And now they are taking another 12+ month holiday.

You talk about your phone bill but I would be surprised if you hadn't ensured it wasn't "around the norm". What? You haven't? They are charging you $500 a month? Good job you frequent these forums

Now your last part I "understand" hence my b2p preference - whilst having nothing at all against f2p games.

muffins89

obviously I would rather play a game I enjoyed for free than be forced to pay for it.  but I would be willing to pay 15-20 a month for the right game.

rojoArcueid

Another sheep who believes that paying a higher subscription will suddenly make a game better.

Burn them with fire, along with the game.

And there are people who still think some players arent part of the problem...

sadbadmad

Maybe freemium model can be quite good compromise if done well. Of course it's not the best idea to limit the cap for f2p users in PVP-oriented games, as they did in Mortal Online, but the model itself is not bad. Want to try out? Come on and play. Game is good and you want more? Sure, just buy premium/sub.
Btw, every single model can be right, it just needs to be well designed.

eye_m

Wizardry said:

eye_m said:

won't play P2P games at all.  The fact that I am paying for time means that I feel compelled to make the most of that time and I'm not interested in that behavior.

Won't play P2P failed into F2P games either.  The games might be good but the shiny is all wore off by the time it's F2P so I've lost interest.

Haven't played much F2P. I've tried a couple, but never lasted  long with them.  I think it's probably because I have no investment into the game, and I'm not about to invest in the gameshop until I know I'll be sticking around.

B2P is my preferred setup with paid expansions and all sorts of frivolous items to buy in their gameshop. I'm not a fan of P2W but I don't play a whole lot of Pv ePeen so minor advantages don't matter to me (exp boosters and such).

You must have missed the part where F2p is NOT actually FREE.They will even at the lowest form have restrictions that will SLOW your game down ,meaning you are WASTING time.

Many would say time is more valuable than money.I find it hard to believe such a statement anyhow,you play games because you want to play it,if you don't want to play it ,then  why would you sub to it?

This analogy is like saying "oh my god i bought a ticket to the movies,i feel compelled to go".No kidding,that is why you bought the ticket,you wanted to see the movie lmao.You don't come out of the movie saying "i don't want to pay for movies because then i feel compelled to actually watch it".

I'm guessing that you're having problems with the forum controls? Maybe you should spend some time learning them before trying to invalidate an opinion. 

Anyhow, I will explain this to you. I don't fucking want it. I don't care if you think I should want it.

Hope that helps.

Loke666

$20 is fine, I could do $25 as well for a good game but then I want all included, no microtransactions and no paid expansions.

AngryElf

No hackers, botters, or gold sellers, and well-policed RMT bullshit is worth $30/mo to me.  But that's why I'll probably never end up spending $30/mo.  This idea is a fantasy. 

anemo

At one point the Sub paid for physical hardware costs.  Now it pays for personnel and development costs...  Considering that most game also decide to charge for their expansions...  I see no reason why I should see an increased sub cost(Considering that that $60 expansion does bring it up to $20 a month if it's a yearly expansion).

ceratop001

I prefer sub games it feels a lot fairer from the get go.

centkin

I vastly prefer subs to ftp.  I have done both, but I find ftp costs a lot more than a sub does. 

As for what I would spend monthly for a "good" sub game?  Maybe $35.  A "Very Good" sub game about $50, and an "optimal" sub game at least $75.  Thankfully though, one does not generally have to pay that much in a sub game.

eye_m

I also thought I would mention, that I do find it difficult to appreciate the community in P2P games because as an outsider looking in, the P2P crowd seems mostly delusional.  For example, they say that P2P means you get access to all content, but I know that P2P games have cash shops as well. Take for instance World of Warcraft.  They also say things like "it keeps the botters and gold spammers away" but we all know THAT isn't the case.  So yeah, with the BS that seems to float in the P2P community, I really have a difficult time is justifying any additional costs.  Of course, what actually happens in those communities is probably vastly different, I just see what I see here

gervaise1

drivendawn said:

Sub all the way it keeps better and more top notch content coming.

For what game? WoW : no content due until the next - paid - expansion. FFXI all new content halted. FFXIV - 2 month delay of any content announced.


As I said a simple mantra: no content delivered, no money paid; conversely no money paid, no content.