Abuse?

Slapshot1188

So, when someone uses the ABUSE flag what happens?  Are there repercussions after a certain amount?  If so, is there a mechanism for review?   I point you to this post as the reason:

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6726984#Comment_6726984

YashaX

Just wanted to bump this, since I am concerned that there is no way to "flag the flagger", and also worried that flagging can be potentially be used as a kind of anonymous attack on other posters (since you can't see who the flagger is) with no repercussions for that kind of behavior.

For example here is a recent post that was flagged in what seems to me to be just an attack on the poster:
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6732419/#Comment_6732419

Deivos

...You do realize insulting or griefing other posters would be a valid reason to flag someone, no?

Pick an example that doesn't have the poster effectively insulting the thread participants.

Aside from that, it would be worth a better explanation of what the flag options are actually there for and what they do in particular.

EDIT: To clarify, that was a response to Yasha, though your response too was a tad on the baiting side.

YashaX

Deivos said:

...You do realize insulting or griefing other posters would be a valid reason to flag someone, no?

Pick an example that doesn't have the poster effectively insulting the thread participants.

Aside from that, it would be worth a better explanation of what the flag options are actually there for and what they do in particular.

EDIT: To clarify, that was a response to Yasha, though your response too was a tad on the baiting side.

Yes griefing and insulting would seem to be good reasons to flag, the post above does none of that which is why I am concerned.

ceratop001

Not saying this is what happened but in my experience anytime you question are disagree with a fanboy you will probably get reported lol.

Slapshot1188

ceratop001 said:

Not saying this is what happened but in my experience anytime you question are disagree with a fanboy you will probably get reported lol.

Well that's kind of my concern...  We have some very "sensitive" folks around here.  

FomaldehydeJim

I know I got flagged for abuse for saying I was listening to Cry Little Sister off the Lost Boys soundtrack. There must be people out there who really hate the tune. Admittedly I was drunk and the terminology in my original post used rather more ripe language, but it was just a description of an event occurring in my flat... odd that it should offend someone. 

ceratop001

Slapshot1188 said:

ceratop001 said:

Not saying this is what happened but in my experience anytime you question are disagree with a fanboy you will probably get reported lol.

Well that's kind of my concern...  We have some very "sensitive" folks around here.  

I agree the folks at mmorpg.com have a tough job discerning information properly. I see a lot of Fanboys who actually bait others and I know they report players for the slightest thing.  I know a few in here by name that I suspect do that but I wont mention their names. I do agree its a major problem in here. It's like you can't be totally honest because you know some fanboy will report you because said game or company is the persons whole life lol.

Sovrath

Slapshot1188 said:

ceratop001 said:

Not saying this is what happened but in my experience anytime you question are disagree with a fanboy you will probably get reported lol.

Well that's kind of my concern...  We have some very "sensitive" folks around here.  

I don't think there is any reason to worry any more for, say, a person being reported. If indeed a post is considered some kind of report then the mods, maybe after a certain amount of people flag it, could look at it. If they decide to warn the poster (or ban in some cases) you would do the same as in the old system and contact [email protected] and then make your case.

So, again, if this is just a way to weigh a post in "flags" then it's no different than the old system as far as the poster's options.

Still, if you are concerned contact Mike B. at the above e-mail and just ask. Just because someone reports a person or in this case "flags" a person doesn't mean they are correct for doing so.

Nanfoodle

I think the flag option needs to be removed and the count on the profile page removed. If I am going to be flagged for spam or abuse it should be by a mod not some smuck who does not like my point of view. This is going to get out of hand.

phantomghost

Nanfoodle said:

I think the flag option needs to be removed and the count on the profile page removed. If I am going to be flagged for spam or abuse it should be by a mod not some smuck who does not like my point of view. This is going to get out of hand.

I think they should put the Warnings Received and Bans Received on there.  Really show who the rebels are.

FomaldehydeJim

The risk is that it dilutes and trivialises the system a little. I have had rather heated debates on here where I have said things I shouldn't and so have others- I haven't been flagged or flagged others for these as it would be rather churlish to do so. Things get said- it happens. But if you start seeing flags for comments that slightly over step the mark it a) prevents people from entering into discussions with the originators of the flag and b) distracts from abuse that should really be handled behind closed doors by a moderator.  

In conclusion, I am not entirely sure what the purpose of it is.  

Deivos

I actually like the concept and it's presence in one way, but dislike it in others.

For one, there is a validity to it being abused simply for trolling purposes or as a way to react to others disliking what someone said.

However, it's also an interesting metric in that regard. Like the upvote/downvote mechanic of other sites, it can measure the frequency with which others interpret a post in different ways. Rather than it being tied to a flag mechanic, it'd be handy to have a sort of "disagree" button.

This all assumes having such metric is perceived as meaningful at all to people though, as disagreement can generally be voiced with much more clarity by simply stating why one disagrees in an actual post.

The warning/ban metric would be interesting to see, assuming the moderators don't consider that some sort of personal breach.

As for the response to my prior post. Iunno. I read it and this...

"It's even more amusing that now some of those oldschool players are realizing videogame RPGs weren't what they wanted. All along it was they who weren't "true" MMORPG players."

...is kind of a bait insult. He might not be impolite in his phrasing, but he's making the same jab at them as you would expect out of any other person trolling. He could have more simply made an observation about the common features between the titles rather than making assertions about the posters. If he wanted to make an objective comment or observation, that was not the way to do it.

Like lets break down the comment you linked. The core takeaway was basically the comment saying "They wanted survival games or virtual world games, but not RPGs."

The only support to this commentary was "when the genre finally realized it needed to provide traditional videogame RPG mechanics to do well." which we can note is specious at best, as the majority if not all of the classic titles had RPG progression mechanics in some form as well as at least several having questing, so the claim itself being made is not itself logical as much as it's simply an opinionated assertion.

While people are free to share opinions, they shouldn't cross them with objectivity, to which the assertion that "old school gamers" "...weren't "true" MMORPG players" directly falls into a false assertion made by that. Moreover, the notion of it being an insult comes in from...

1 - The introductory phrasing being derisive of a general community.
2 - The followup commentary placing specific conjecture and subsequent implications of not belonging in a genre.

Neither of those aspects serve to do anything other than antagonize. That there are "old school gamers" that do such to others with their posts and commentary doesn't excuse a different person from making similar remarks.

Granted I'm obviously not really the right person to be making commentary on how to phrase things at times, as I know I lack politically correct or polite mannerisms when people get obstinate enough. However, there is a point to be made that politely insulting someone is not the same as giving an opinion or objective analysis on a game, company, idea, etc.

Not something someone should necessarily be flagged for, but also not something people should be mistaking as anything other than inane banter.

I know I will personally riff on it when I see such happen, like if you look at my response in that thread you linked.

Tikkun

The notion of 'flagging' an individual for some perceived 'subjective' prejudice or bias in their post is nonsensical.   A forum is, after all, a place that encourages discussion and different points of view.  Once you start 'censoring' people by attaching flags to a post that is not insulting, derogatory or filled with four letter words describing the individual, you enter a very dark area that is far more dangerous than ideas expressed in a post. 

If you do not agree with another post simply state why and explain, in a somewhat logical manner, the flaws in that poster's ideas.  I read both the posts cited above and could see nothing 'abusive' in them.  If you can not respond in a logical fashion, the 'flag' option should not be allowed as a recourse.

My 2 cp worth at least.

YashaX

Deivos said:

Granted I'm obviously not really the right person to be making commentary on how to phrase things at times, as I know I lack politically correct or polite mannerisms 

I agree.

Deivos

YashaX said:

Deivos said:

Granted I'm obviously not really the right person to be making commentary on how to phrase things at times, as I know I lack politically correct or polite mannerisms 

I agree.

Baiting, exhibit A.

EDIT: At least you are good for showing what a flagable offense might look like.

Deivos

I should clarify.

I am not going to defend people on either side of any specific argument. If "old school gamers" insult someone, then they are just as much at fault as anyone that would deign to insult them.

Ultimately the matter is that regardless of what your opinions are, that is a distinct value separate from objective or logical values and separate from the means in which one expresses themselves.

For example, I got a flag earlier for calling axehilt an idiot. Regardless of the fact that I was stating it under the fact that he chose to try and discredit something by refusing to read/watch it, the manner in which I phrased that point was separate from the objective case of the comment, and therefore got mod intervention.

If I didn't want mod intervention, I could have simply repeated the core logic without introducing my personal bias over his behavior, but my self control didn't allow for that.

And that's the takeaway. You are free to express opinions, logic, facts, etc. When you mix it with insults, derision, trolling, griefing, etc though, be they direct or indirect, then expect repercussion even if minor.

Deivos

YashaX said:

I see, agreeing with someone is a flaggable offense, but calling someone an idiot because you disagree with them is quite ok, nice logic you have there.

...whut? I used calling someone an idiot as a clearly flagable offense getting in the way of objective values. even gave the distinct reason it was a flagable offense.

[mod edit]

YashaX

Deivos said:

YashaX said:

I see, agreeing with someone is a flaggable offense, but calling someone an idiot because you disagree with them is quite ok, nice logic you have there.

...whut? I used calling someone an idiot as a clearly flagable offense getting in the way of objective values. even gave the distinct reason it was a flagable offense.

[mod edit]

FomaldehydeJim

[mod edit]

FomaldehydeJim

[mod edit]

Deivos

[mod edit]

Kyleran

[mod edit]

Deivos

[mod edit]

[mod edit]
While my opinion is, as stated in the breakdown above, that posts which serve predominantly to bait or taunt rather than inform, share opinions, etc, are generally things that would be and should be flaggable, regardless of how politely one words it.

To do such out of hand is wholly unnecessary itself though, which compounds with the case that it likely shouldn't be part of the social system due to seemingly blindly vindictive people, [mod edit]

Kyleran

Deivos said:

Kyleran said:

You don't have to take the bait you know, and I think he was just poking fun at you.

But I agree with the OP, both examples given in this thread were not reportable, and the abuse flag serves no useful purpose that I can see.

I'd be happy to agree with you if a certain individual didn't seem to be aiming for making a case on why it should get used right now.

While my opinion is, as stated in the breakdown above, that posts which serve predominantly to bait or taunt rather than inform, share opinions, etc, are generally things that would be and should be flaggable, regardless of how politely one words it.

To do such out of hand is wholly unnecessary itself though, which compounds with the case that it likely shouldn't be part of the social system due to seemingly blindly vindictive people, as @YashaX ; has demonstrated in this thread, using it as a way to attack others out of irrational antagonism.

What you call baiting or taunting, I call attempts to draw out discussion.  Up  to you entirely if you want to play their game, or just ignore it and move on.  You don't have to "win", but they do, and reporting you is another way they steal your joy, don't let them.

You ever play EVE?  Then you'd know what irrational antagonism really is.

YashaX

Kyleran said:

Deivos said:

Kyleran said:

You don't have to take the bait you know, and I think he was just poking fun at you.

But I agree with the OP, both examples given in this thread were not reportable, and the abuse flag serves no useful purpose that I can see.

I'd be happy to agree with you if a certain individual didn't seem to be aiming for making a case on why it should get used right now.

While my opinion is, as stated in the breakdown above, that posts which serve predominantly to bait or taunt rather than inform, share opinions, etc, are generally things that would be and should be flaggable, regardless of how politely one words it.

To do such out of hand is wholly unnecessary itself though, which compounds with the case that it likely shouldn't be part of the social system due to seemingly blindly vindictive people, as @YashaX ; has demonstrated in this thread, using it as a way to attack others out of irrational antagonism.

What you call baiting or taunting, I call attempts to draw out discussion.  Up  to you entirely if you want to play their game, or just ignore it and move on.  You don't have to "win", but they do, and reporting you is another way they steal your joy, don't let them.

You ever play EVE?  Then you'd know what irrational antagonism really is.

I just want to say that I have no ill will towards Deivos at all and indeed have agreed with things he/she has said in the past. Sometimes I agree, sometimes i disagree, no need to hate.