Camelot Unchained: Stretch Goal Met: Stealth Unchained

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe CitadelMMORPG.COM Staff LegendaryPosts: 25,833

The Camelot Unchained team has let us know that the latest stretch goal has been met: Stealth Unchained. Knowing its controversial nature, the team gave long consideration to its inclusion in the game. The most important factor, we are told, is fun. If the system isn't entertaining for all, it is not implemented right.

The first named archetype, or class, is the archer. They will have access to a more powerful and magical camouflage system that is available to all players. They will have access to camouflage armor and is given to them to take on the ranger-style archer, not a magical one. Further, camouflage is not invisibility -- it simply makes players using it harder to see.

Scouts will have a powerful stealth mechanic, but with a limited duration. Those with Soul Walking will be useful as Assassins and gives them the ability to separate soul from body and to "float through the Realms".

Veilwalkers & Veilstalkers are specifically oriented towards killing other players. They are not one-shot assassins. They have the ability to stay in the Veil for much longer than any others. The longer in the veil, the more damage they can deal, but they will not emerge with full health.

Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers

Based on the reactions on the Forums when we were talking about this, I do think we have concepted a number of interesting mechanics and classes. A true scouting class is, in and of itself, a pretty cool addition. Archers with a true camouflage system will also be a good addition to the game. At the same time, the VW/VS setup, as well as other counters, do not make being a stealther “Easy Mode”, as they can, and will be, the target of other hunter-killers.



Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, vanish with long/unlimited stealth
Even in the midst of a big battle, the ability to move into the Veil will not be as simple as hitting a button and going poof, you’re in the Veil.



Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after in RvR
The use of scouts, archers, and VW/VS will all add important aspects to the RvR gameplay in our game. Even in the midst of a large battle, having VW/VS hunting each other and looking for targets of opportunity could be important. Scouts that can help disable siege engines and help other players hit their targets, even when there is no line of sight, can be a nice addition to the game.



Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional stealthers want to play
I think we did that, but only you folks can tell us for sure. As someone who plays stealthers too (not my main, usually), I would play all three of these classes, so…



Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience
I think this one is covered by a lot of the above checks and balances. Life as a stealther will be challenging, but rewarding as well. Most importantly, stealthers are going to have to pay attention, at all times, to the game that they are playing.



Goal #6 – Design a system where gank groups of stealthers are not possible
I hope that the use of sound, extra damage, and possibly other things, will really discourage the use of gank groups (as opposed to groups on the field of battle).



Goal #7 – Design a system that doesn’t affect the launch date of the game
One of the three classes discussed here is already a planned launch class. Another one of the classes is going to be an Extender class, and the third will only be put in if it doesn’t hurt the schedule. Fortunately, that class is also going to require less tech than an archetype such as archers, because of how we are envisioning them. And again, if putting this class in the game at launch would require any additional delay, we are not going to delay the game for the class's implementation.

There is much, much more to read, more details and more about how the stealth system will work in RvR and more. There is also a planned live stream that will talk in more detail and that will allow players to pose questions about stealth.

Read it all on the Camelot Unchained site.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


Comments

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
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  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Sounds amazing, I am so looking forward to this game.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,198

    Of all the prominent KS MMOs in development, this one, by far, has the greates chance of success, IMHO of course.

     

    I keep getting more and more interested every day.

     

    You say you never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
    He's not selling any alibis
    As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
    And say "Do you want to make a deal?"
  • AlumicardAlumicard wea, ALMember UncommonPosts: 374
    Originally posted by greenreen

      All I kept thinking though reading about stealth is that... I've never seen a stealth healer. Stealth has always been about damage, never about support. This scouting and camouflage is the first step toward support. I'd love to see a large group of stealthers seem to come out of nowhere then begin turning a tide because they could heal instead of backstab hehe  

    Meh... DAoC had Minstrels. A support stealther that did have a few dmg lines but was support most of the time.

     

    And no, as a non stealther you definitly do not want "to see large group of stealthers seem to come out of nowhere then begin turning a tide". We had that in DAoC either a full stealth group or some stealther using grp stealth and 7 wizzards were hidden. Not so much fun to get hit by 7 ae skills at the same time at least from the zerg point of view because it cost you anything from 10 to 200 players.

     

    Back to topic:

    IF the camo skill/armor is like stealther units in Starcraft then that would be awesome. People can see them but it takes some skill to do so. Meaning it isn't just a char skill vs char skill check but actual player skill. I will not to be able to stay in stealth all the time and pa-> cd a healer but adding a challenge to sneeking up on the target is welcomed.

  • sholo635sholo635 Jonquiere, QCMember UncommonPosts: 20
    I think too much people has get their refund and the stretch goal is not reached...
  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 879
    ugh stealth is such a shitty crutch, i dont understand why its needed in games now.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 934

    LAME.  this is basically saying, "hey stealthers, you know the 3 things you need to be you? well we are going to gimp them with creative "ways" detailed here.  have fun!"

    Honestly, me and my old daoc stealther friends used to always talk ingame about whats a stealther or assassins biggest asset.  We would say things like, stealth, stun (dragonfang), or perforate artery (big opener). by not only reducing 1, but all 3 in this game, well you are just doing the same crap that every other game has done after DAOC, which is normalize stealthers so that mainstream non stealthers dont go bananas and have a heart attack cuz a stealther just crit shotted them out of nowhere.  

    They are taking the super exciting and fun things about the early days of DAOC Stealthing and completely giving into non stealther, current main stream players ideas and desires for what today's stealthers should be, all according to non stealthers.   

    This game was supposed to be part throwback part innovation.  But what happens is, these "innovations" end up turning our stealthers into "tricksters" "skirmishers" and gnats in general that can't really take down anything except extremely soft targets.  so yeah its lame.  

    a fully geared up and high realm rank stealther should be able to take down a tank on his own.  Even in the early days of daoc, before buffbots ruled, or before left axe and infs getting 2.5 spec points, high ranking stealthers could take down any class, cuz of untimed stealth.

    putting stealth on any sort of timer and removing openers, you are basically de-clawing stealthers.  i mean you can put lipstick on a pig, BUT ITS STILL A PIG.  Just state the obvious, YOU WANT TO DE-FANG STEALTHERS TO APPEASE NON-STEALTHERS, but still keep stealth in some form, to bait in the stealther crowd to play your game.  LAME

    what if i told a tank, well you know that armor you like? well you have to move at a turtle's pace because well, chain and plate mail is heavy, sorry!  or hey mage, you know that fireball you like to cast? well you have to sit still for 10 seconds to cast it, and the damaged is reduced by half, and its on a timer.  have fun!"

     

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  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 934
    Originally posted by Ecoces
    ugh stealth is such a shitty crutch, i dont understand why its needed in games now.

    spoken like a true non-stealther.  it was in daoc for 10+ years.  it was actually quite balanced for the first 5-7 years.  until they made leveling alts easier and less of a grind, then everyone rolled stealthers, and had bots, and had left axe, or had 2.5 spec points on infs.  all of which became a snowball effect.  but prior to that it was quite balanced.  

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
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  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABMember RarePosts: 2,593
    Originally posted by greenreen
      All I kept thinking though reading about stealth is that... I've never seen a stealth healer. Stealth has always been about damage, never about support. This scouting and camouflage is the first step toward support. I'd love to see a large group of stealthers seem to come out of nowhere then begin turning a tide because they could heal instead of backstab hehe  

    Swtor has Operative and Scoundrel which are mirrors (so pretty much the same) and both are stealth healers. The game also has a stealth tank. It also has a crap engine so all the benefits this would have in large open world pvp are thrown out the window.

    You stay sassy!

  • TimesplitTimesplit SpaceityMember UncommonPosts: 191

    As i've said already, how they're going to handle Stealth will be something to watch. I won't play one at launch because of the usual sledgehammer nerfs later on, which is what i fear every time someone implements such a class. I will of course be on the frontline still, but more as a defender of other people or a heavy hitter in your face type of thing.

     

    We'll see what happens, but i hope you have watched what other games did closely, MJ.

  • NanulakNanulak USAMember UncommonPosts: 366

    This is awesome news.  Not only are they planning on getting stealth into the game but they are splitting into three different types so you can decide what kind of stealther you like.  The archers with superior camouflage sound awesome but the scout with the ability to infiltrate the enemy lines and cause chaos sounds too good to be true.

    The concept art looks cool as well.  This game will be hot once they get it done.

    Nanulak

  • Tracho12Tracho12 Langston, OHMember UncommonPosts: 136
    I have to echo Ecoces sentiments.

    Stealth is a horrible mechanic. There is nothing skillful or fun about not being able to see your opponent while he can see you.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,111
    Originally posted by greenreen

      All I kept thinking though reading about stealth is that... I've never seen a stealth healer. Stealth has always been about damage, never about support. This scouting and camouflage is the first step toward support. I'd love to see a large group of stealthers seem to come out of nowhere then begin turning a tide because they could heal instead of backstab hehe    

    SWTOR Scoundrel. I guess one could say ESO as well.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • meddyckmeddyck USAMember UncommonPosts: 1,223
    It was actually the Realm Honors On Steroids stretch goal that was met. Stealth Unchained is the next stretch goal.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • Mighty_PlatypusMighty_Platypus FF, CAMember UncommonPosts: 99
    The beauty of stealth is the unknown. People did not travel alone in the frontiers, you didn't stray from your group, and you sure as hell didn't go to the outskirts of a battle. I mean hell if you were on a keep wall launching fireballs or arrows you could expect to receive a perf to the face by a stealthier that climbed your wall. Some of the most memorable times are when people are yelling in chat about a stealther somewhere ganking people. You either joined in the ganking, or sent a search party out to handle the situation. Stealth is an amazing mechanic when done right.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 934
    Originally posted by Mighty_Platypus
    The beauty of stealth is the unknown. People did not travel alone in the frontiers, you didn't stray from your group, and you sure as hell didn't go to the outskirts of a battle. I mean hell if you were on a keep wall launching fireballs or arrows you could expect to receive a perf to the face by a stealthier that climbed your wall. Some of the most memorable times are when people are yelling in chat about a stealther somewhere ganking people. You either joined in the ganking, or sent a search party out to handle the situation. Stealth is an amazing mechanic when done right.

     

    exactly.  but you know the mindset of a caster who gets killed like that nowadays?  bonkers.  they will go bonkers and nerd rage and demand a nerfing.  No way you can kill a caster like that.  Its definitely OP.  (sarcasm)

    that type of thing doesnt happen nowadays.  anytime anyone dies like that in a keep without them knowing what happened, well its a national incident and a movement is started to nerf that particular class hahaha.  

    but yeah i remember those times too and I enjoyed them alot. 

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
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  • TimesplitTimesplit SpaceityMember UncommonPosts: 191
    Originally posted by time007
    Originally posted by Mighty_Platypus
    The beauty of stealth is the unknown. People did not travel alone in the frontiers, you didn't stray from your group, and you sure as hell didn't go to the outskirts of a battle. I mean hell if you were on a keep wall launching fireballs or arrows you could expect to receive a perf to the face by a stealthier that climbed your wall. Some of the most memorable times are when people are yelling in chat about a stealther somewhere ganking people. You either joined in the ganking, or sent a search party out to handle the situation. Stealth is an amazing mechanic when done right.

     

    exactly.  but you know the mindset of a caster who gets killed like that nowadays?  bonkers.  they will go bonkers and nerd rage and demand a nerfing.  No way you can kill a caster like that.  Its definitely OP.  (sarcasm)

    that type of thing doesnt happen nowadays.  anytime anyone dies like that in a keep without them knowing what happened, well its a national incident and a movement is started to nerf that particular class hahaha.  

    but yeah i remember those times too and I enjoyed them alot. 

    Exactly this is why i'm afraid of playing such classes nowadays. Sticking to a Warrior type of class seems to have less risks of heavy nerf batting.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,419
    Originally posted by time007
      a fully geared up and high realm rank stealther should be able to take down a tank on his own.  Even in the early days of daoc, before buffbots ruled, or before left axe and infs getting 2.5 spec points, high ranking stealthers could take down any class, cuz of untimed stealth.    

    So you want to be able to kill all classes with no counter?  I mean, I love me some stealth but that seems a bit silly as an expectation...

     

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    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 934
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188
    Originally posted by time007
      a fully geared up and high realm rank stealther should be able to take down a tank on his own.  Even in the early days of daoc, before buffbots ruled, or before left axe and infs getting 2.5 spec points, high ranking stealthers could take down any class, cuz of untimed stealth.    

    So you want to be able to kill all classes with no counter?  I mean, I love me some stealth but that seems a bit silly as an expectation...

     

    Yeah i wrote that knowing people would get upset by it.  That is exactly what i mean.  The ORIGINAL release of DAOC stealth was fine.  Untimed stealth was fine and was ALWAYS a part of the game.  It wasn't until leveling got easier, people leveled stealth alts, got buff bots and stealthers got increased spec points that they could get 4 or 5 skills to use on people.

    Stealthers in DAOC from the beginning had untimed stealth, perforate artery and dragon fang as added later.  It was UNTIL we got more spec points, and left axe etc, that we could do everything (this was years after release)  NOW THEY are removing CRITSHOT.....

    daoc operated finely for half a decade with this formula of stealth, envenom + either thrust, critical strike, or envenom, it forced assassins to choose..  It wasn't until they went spec point crazy that things got out of hand.  I actually posted about this a decade ago,and people laughed at me saying I was basically saying "nerf me please".  I knew that the backlash of giving stealthers left axe and and stealthers more spec points back in the day, would make non stealthers upset, because then every one who rolled a stealther could do anything,  I'm saying dial it back to the time when DAOC was released, in terms of stealthers.  

     

    I'm asking they just make stealthers like they were originally where we had untimed stealth, a crit shot, and maybe one other decent skill.  No need to make it so stealthers can have a fourth or fifth thing such as dual wield and poisons.  Its about specs. back in the day, you had to go crit shot or dual wield or thrust  (assuming you kept envenom).  if you get too many spec points you could do both or all 3, which is when it started getting lame.  Havine three decent skills is fine. 

    EDIT:  actually the original specs for most good infs was stealth, thrust and envenom.  then 5 years or so later they released a patch where stealthers got more spec points, and people started doing stealth, thrust, envenom + dual wield & critical strike almost all capped.  this is what made people mad.  But if you just had it originally with stealth, thrust, and envenom, and took time stalking you could kill a tank if his IP was down.  

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  • dplcafdplcaf Member UncommonPosts: 59

    I loved stealth in DAoC & WoW, but I didn't enjoy playing a stealther in Warhammer Online. Long story short, I enjoyed my perma stealth being able to pick and choose fights.

    Playing a rogue during vanilla wow in STV was some of the greatest pvp moments I have ever had just for the shear amount of horde I could take down before getting killed if killed at all.

    Playing a Shadowblade stalking the bridges and portal keeps in thidranki during classic was some of the more intense pvp I have ever had. I will admit it, a good infiltrator would get me if I didn't get the 2hd perf/backstab off. But that is what made it so much fun, that a infiltrator could be lurking around the corner, just waiting for you.. Gives me the shivers lol.

  • shawn01shawn01 nashua, NHMember UncommonPosts: 162

    Stealth in Daoc was great. It was the most fun thing i have ever done.

    I also liked going mastery of block and parry and my hero and fighting 3 infs at once and winning.

    Stealth wars were awesome.

    Stealth that is timed isnt fun.

    Timers arent fun.

    Buff bots ruined Daoc's stealth game because perma buffed stealthers were not intended.

    A true sequel to daoc should have stealth like daoc.

    Remove the buff bots and stealthers wont be overpowered.

    Stealthers are good for community, they get people to work together, and they keep the visibles in groups where they belong.

    Daoc was the best game ever by a long country mile, just copy it with newer graphics.

    Also its a lot easier to make a stealth mechanic that is the same for all 3 classes. Like it was in daoc for archers assasins and minstrels.

    One thing that could be done would to be a sprint stealth mode where you become considerably easier to see while moving at nearly normal speed, and then have the traditional very difficult to see 1/2 movement speed stealth.

    Either way i'll be playing something, but i doubt it would be a stealther without true daoc-style stealth which was the best.

  • shawn01shawn01 nashua, NHMember UncommonPosts: 162
    Agree about thid. I played all 3 assasins in there, and nothing more fun than making solo casters slide past the swawp with a well timed perf.
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