Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why is *real* crafting a class?
astraycat
Member UncommonPosts: 15
Hello all,
I recently stumbled upon CU, and have become very much impressed with what CSE is doing. Even more impressive is the integrity Mark Jacobs has shown and the level of open communication we’ve seen. I applaud all of them for it. After spending hours watching/listening to their interviews and concept ideas, I have little doubt that CU will be awesome, regardless of my concerns.
However, I don’t quite understand why crafting will a class in itself, instead of making it another aspect of your character like most mmos. Crafting and combat seem like two mostly non-overlapping areas of gameplay. One can see them as different “roles”, but unlike healer, dps, and tank, there’s no potential for someone to be overpowered in combat by having it all. You can't really craft in combat, right? I can only see this potentially being a problem in sieges, if crafters have repair/construction abilities that can turn the tide of a battle. Is the separation made for rvr balance purposes? Or lore purposes, because you don't want a non-magical warriorish class fighting and turning to his Vox the next minute? Or is it just to promote realm cooperation?
I imagine crafters might be the second-class citizen. Not necessarily because other people treat them as such, but because they will suck at combat, and will essentially be crippled anywhere in the open world. Having parties of crafters and combatants helps, but crafters are still left having to run away, being rather useless whenever there’s a fight. Sure, it’s a team game, but wouldn’t anyone hate being crippled in combat and not being able to venture outside confidently? As I understand it, MJ wants crafters to be present at sieges for repair/siege construction. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't want to be one of those crafters. Would you?
I'd think if crafting was done like every other mmo, many people still would make crafter-only alts because of the way inventories and fast travel options are limited. But people who want their character to be more than just a fighter could do so, and crafters wouldn't be so vulnerable when gathering. What do you think?
Comments
When I read up on CU's crafting system it gives me a vibe between SWG and Darkness Falls: the Crusade. Most will be familiar with SWG but no so much with DFC. In darkness falls, crafters would build walls, repair wall, lay down traps, throw bombs they crafted, and a lot of other cool stuff. The crafters in DFC all had there own unique abilities and such, some I listed before.
Some crafters could tap into their mana pools to make a magic spell hit extremely hard. They could tap so much mana it could drain their health. Some could dual-wield, some could summon golems, etc.. It made playing a crafter in DFC very fun, active, unique, and always needed.
The reason why I mention DFC is because it too was created by Mythic and Mark Jacobs.
But these are some of the more important notes for me I found while searching through their crafting site.
The crafting system of Camelot Unchained will cater to both hard-core and casual crafters
The use of souls in crafted items, while not a unique twist, is being done in an original manner that will allow master craftsmen to make very rare and powerful items
Crafters must be able to make a profit throughout their lifetime
Basic crafting system available to all players
Treat the “pure” crafter as a mage: A crafter has stats, crafting points, and downtime
This has me very excited to hear, I've only ever found a few games that had merchant/crafter classes that wernt tied in with combat and they were always amazing. I purpose behind being a crafter is to gather stuff and create stuff, then sell it to make money, friends, and social connections. The crafter class doesnt need to have alot of combat abilities because that isnt what the class is about and anyone that chooses to play a crafter class should already go it to it expecting to not do much combat and if they do be pretty weak at it.
Being a master supplier of raw materials and goods in a gaming world that has a legit economy is a huge deal and there is no need to add combat prowess on top of that. Simply running shops, crafting awesome wares, selling to the public and making friends and getting your name known around the world as a great crafter is enough for some people.
Part of previous games I've played that has crafter classes is that you can hire people to protect you when you go out on a supply run, or to transfer cargo from one city to another. Also making friends and giving discounts is a huge way to get people who are willing to gather materials for you as well as be your body guards in times of need. Yes you might be out at a battlefield or in a siege keeping all the cogs in the machine going but that doesnt mean you need to take part in combat, thats what the fighters are for.
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Too much focus on RvR,pvp ,too simple a game design,pvp is easy to pull off.When i want pvp action it can only please me when done in an Arena setting because the map layout makes for the best possible pvp combat,rpg maps cannot pull it off.
I loved COD but when they started to add in rpg aspects it really turned me off to where i no longer play their games.
Point is i love crafting ,i want crafting to be very important and rewarding but ONLY in my rpg's and only with PVE.
Way too many games now coming through the pipeline are focused on pvp,i feel it is because of budget constraints,it is just far easier and cheaper to build a pvp focused game.It would still be a great idea if i thought pvp in these types of games offers what i want from pvp but they don't.
What i have seen is a crowd that wants large scale siege battles,i can understand the interest in that but it''s not for me.I also have no want or need to feel like i am competing my realm versus your realm,when i think of a realm game i want LOTS of realms "like 20+" not another simple Warhammer RvR game with 2-3 realms.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Extremely few MMO's do pvp well. DAoC for alot of us, is the standard that we look for in new titles. Mark Jacobs knows pvp. I am really looking forward to playing CU.
Also, there will be PvE, just no PvE xp or item drops. Speculation here, i am assuming that most mobs will drop crafting mats and named/boss mobs will drop the rare crafting mats. CU is targetting a niche playerbase, but from what i have seen/heard, i think they will do a little better than that. At least i am hopeful.
All that being said, give it a chance before you decide yes or no on a promising title that is still in Alpha.
Small budget, focus on what he knows best, targeting a small niche market that really doesn't enjoy doing too much PVE, they are there for the RVR the more the better.
Not sure if it's really for me even though I am an alpha kickstarter backer, but I support the idea of different game ideas and so far this one is different.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The reason you are asking this question is because you aren't a crafter.
Crafters want to be able to distinguish themselves from their peers. They want the things they make to have value. In games where crafting is a side activity and just an alternate way to get gear, crafting is next to useless beyond maybe a few specific items. If no one crafted in those games, it will little to no impact on the game. Crafters want games where what they do matters.
We ceretainly have different opinions about depth and role of crafting in tis game. For example, I hope that even more crafters will have the "frontline" alternative to sit back and craft: not only battleground builders or siege engineers, but also cooks, butchers, blacksmiths etc.
Furthermore, I am afraid that crafting in CU will be neglected in sense that it`s important part, gathering, will be more-less tacked on, as it always is in games. Based on what I know (which is not much - that is, I really hope I am wrong about this), gathering will be pretty generic, with the idea that it`s already happening in the huge battleground, therefore the ambient and players should take care of the fun.
We won't have all the options of some other games, in terms of different branches of crafting (as I said during the KS), but we will have lots of things for our crafters to do.
As to gathering being neglected or tacked on, nope, you're wrong (as you hoped!) simply because during the KS, we pushed the idea of "bubbles" where crafters could mine and gather stuff. We also talked about how crafters won't just be running around the world and seeing outcrops of gold, iron, etc. to gather like in so many MMORPGs. So, gathering won't be generic. Will it be everything I hope? I don't know but it certainly won't be generic.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
I second this. Having crafting require a sacrifice to dedicate yourself to it means that the pool gets smaller, and the dedication is higher. Crafting gets more meaning when it becomes its own game within a game that isn't easily penetrated. Moreover, having some way to have uber crafters is also a way of providing "Product Value" that makes it about the crafter, and not just about the purple raid ingredient you managed to loot for your warrior to craft with the everyman-blacksmith button.
Having deep crafting means nothing if NPC vendors sell as good or better stuff. So Crafting and the in-game economy are tied together. Having dedicated producers fill that role means that the whole endeavor is more about wanting to be a crafter instead of just checking a box on the character.
Thanks! That pretty much sums up our approach. I love PvE and PvP but we had a decision to make. Either try to focus on one of them and do it very well or try to do both and probably, not do either was well. When you're an independent like we are, you can certainly try to do both but how realistic would that have been? I thought the whole "We'll give you RvR, PvP, PvE and a whole lot more for only $19.95. And if you support us now, we'll throw in a new case of ACompanyIsAtStake Knives!' would be total BS. I'd rather focus our efforts on making a niche game and making a great niche game than making another in the long line of games that tried to do everything and failed.
Plus, there's lots of PvE games out there already. As much as I love it too, and hope to do another one some day, I thought that this approach made more sense.
As always, time will tell.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
That's an odd way of looking at it. But then again it's somewhat understandable given how mmo's have evolved.
1, Crafters should be the richest in the game therefore they should be able to hire people to "watch their back" when they are out there. In lineage 2 the scavangers were the class that could gather a lot of mats. we would take them out to certain areas/dungeons and grind with them just so they could get mats. They could defend themselves (like the crafters) but weren't "killing powerhouses" by any means.
2, useless? They are the people who make your gear that allow you to do what you are doing. Without them you are probably nothing. So yeah, protect the heck out of them as they are your lifeblood.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Correct. Our crafters won't have to worry about being trumped by a drop from a raid boss or their efforts being outdone by an alt who just got a ton of materials dumped on him by their guild. Being a great crafter will take time, not in mindless button mashing, but in skill and dedication. And in return for that they will be protected by a game design that ensures that they can't be quickly outleveled by new players + guild support.
Will our crafting system be for everybody? Nope. Said that back in the KS days. We want our main crafting system to be for crafters and our 'popcorn' crafting system for everybody else. Seems like a good compromise.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
As other people have stated you are looking for the instant gratification of combat; and here is nothing wrong with that. I for one am looking forward to building my rep up with the server that I am a Master at Crafting. Back in the good ol' SWG days I was an armoursmith (#3 on my server). I had my Niche clients that wanted Ubese Armour, that I catered to, when most smiths where pumping out the the composite as fast as the factories could make it.
All in all it is a different way to play the game that other people enjoy.
Thanks for the replies, everyone. Maybe it is because I'm not really a crafter, but I just have a hard time seeing how crafting all the time can be as compelling as pvp or have the same depth. Without some intelligent entity to work against you, how is it different from pve? Where will the strategy or skill come from? What keeps it fresh? How do you differentiate yourself from another crafter specialized in the same "line"?
So crafting sounds like it might not be my game, but you guys have made it clear that some can enjoy it, and I accept that. Combat certainly sounds like it'll satisfy me.
I feel like my question is being danced around a bit, though. Many of you have talked about how crafting is important and all that, which I accept, but I'm still not clear on what the motivation is for making it character specific.
One could have the same time consuming, involved crafting system in the game, but just let any character decide to train in it or ignore it as they choose. Those who don't like crafting so much won't progress in crafting. Those that like crafting but not combat will progress in crafting but not combat. And those who want to do both can master both, and bring glory to their name both ways.
The difference will be in rolling two characters instead of one, and perhaps the interaction/cooperation needed. Why have you chosen this route? Is it for lore purposes? Pragmatism? Balance? To promote more cooperation and different ways of cooperating? (Sounds a lot like this one). In what way is this system better than having the potential to craft on any class? I'm not saying it's wrong or that you should change it; I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind this idear
I'd love to hear your take on this, Mark. And again thanks for all your efforts in building CU and this community!
Ah, excellent! I`ve never been happier to be wrong! (BRB googling "gathering bubbles camelot")
First, didn't intend to dance around the question. I suck at dancing, just as my wife.
There are a lot of reasons, some of which you name. However, the main reason is really simple. I wanted to create a class of crafters because by focusing on them as a unique class, we could design the crafting system around a full-time play-style and not a part-time one. Now, could we have made crafting essentially a full-time add-on to the core class system? Yep but, and here's the big but, this way we can have a crafter class that doesn't have to also engage in RvR battles in order to level up their character. And yes, we could have done this as a tack-on as well but you know what, it just seemed (and still does) cleaner to do it this way. I want to see if we can attract some folks who want to participate in this world but don't want to engage in RvR battles. This way, they don't have to in order to progress and everything about their class is designed for them, just as any of our other classes have unique mechanics, leveling, etc.
As per above, lots of other reasons as well but that was the main one when I was pondering our crafting system two years ago.
Thanks for the interest and just checking us out!
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Thought you'd be happy with that.
I think it is important for us to really separate gathering in the same manner we are separating crafting. Should there be lots of stuff laying around in the world? Yep. But should there be a deeper and richer part of that as well? Yep. Picking posies as you wander through the world is one thing and everybody should be able to do that. But to be able to really mine materials, well, you need to be a crafter to do that.
I'm off to the gym! Cya all later.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Some of my fondest memories in gaming was being a crafter back in UO. I enjoyed running my little own business with my personal npc vendors. I had to attract customers and the business grew over time to the point that I really couldn't keep up with it. My name was known and people sought me out because they knew they could depend on me for there needs.
I spent many years in the raid and pvp scene and combat progression was the priority. But, that treadmill grew stale for me after awhile. I still truly enjoy the economic side of the a game and for the most part spend the majority of my time crafting and gathering in games. I look forward to what CU has to offer with its economic systems and crafting class. I haven't delved into it to deeply honestly as I'm not a tester, but once the game gains persistence, you betcha I'm gonna be there trying it out and reading all I can to shine as a crafter in the game.
This is what happened to FireFall. People couldn't understand that the lowest quality resource is just as valuable as, and sometimes more important than, the highest quality resource when customizing gear. So they scrapped that model and went with something out of the WoW handbook.
The "forum community" pleaded with Red5 for more hand holding quests because creativity was not a strong suit for most existing players so they opted for quest hub style with a HEAVY influence to progression.
The progression system was tiered and horizontal with a slight touch of vertical and a power curve that still made noob areas fun to play around when at top tier. Guess what, the majority of the community didn't want it. So they scrapped that for a 1-40 leveling system with a huge power curve that funneled all the capped players into one corner of the world just like any other traditional MMOPRG. Noob areas where I used to go and pick up new people and interact with them become meaningless and mobs in those zones drop at a passing glance.
The guys behind CU seem pretty cool from watching one of their live streams until they said they will develop the game around their community and adjust accordingly, that's where I got turned off. Red5 had something really great with FireFall until the "community" drove it into the ground with demands of mediocrity and homogenization with an emphasis on sameness. This is the reason why I am skeptical of anything revolutionary or unique coming from the developers of Camelot Unchained.
It`s good to know that we will finally have deep and rich system, as opposed to classical Gathering tacked on to Crafting tacked on to anything else. Oh, by the way - after some googling, KSing and CUwiking, just couple short remarks:
Reading Greenreen`s link and CU Wiki about Mining made me so excited for complexity and wealth of ideas that awaits me in the other 26 gathering professions, unfortunatelly Logging (click to ch-ch-check it) was the only other one currently available. "They will update the rest soon", thought I to my paranoic self, "no need to get upset about that minor omission".
My paranoic self replied by noticing that neither Gathering nor Harvesting pages exist per se, and that Gathering (with only Mining sub inside) was accidentally tacked on under Crafting, which - also by pure accident - happened to be quite long, branchy and rich section with lots of links and videos inside. "An obvious typo" I replied, "don`t be silly".
Ah, I forgot to mention - while reading I was on my way back home, driving through the MMO desert. As usual at this time of the century, there was no news on the radio, just some music. I guess it was good old "Song Remains the Same"... when suddenly BANG! tsk tsk tsk... It was tyre on my Hypomobile.
I called for help, they said they will send either "Update the Other 26" or "Playable Goblins" team, whichever comes first. So here I am, waiting in the desert, typing stuff on my phone. But hey, at least the music is good
PS Will spirit pets be used in gathering, crafting, carrying/transport, locating resources, building, repairing...? Or are they intended for somebody else? =(
PPS a random idea - Luchorpán with greenish skin and big pointy nose would look like Goblin!? (A hunchback and evil grin would help too).
Wow, I had missed the concept of mines in bubbles entirely (greengreen's link). That does sound different...and interesting indeed! I can see someone (or even myself) mining/exploring and building full time.
Now I wonder if people will be able to make underground homes/keeps/fortresses. Or goblin lairs
@MJ:
So it's mainly that you want people to be able to craft without the combat progression "treadmill" staring at them all the time? So they could "complete" their character without any RVR? I had thought you wanted the drive toward "completion" to go away, due to the focus on horizontal progression and lack of hard caps. I can see how design (lore, looks) would be easier with a separate class, since you have less interactions to consider.
I know you've said crafters won't be able to stand toe to toe with combatants, but they'll at least be able to travel the world without dying to any little mob. Do you have any idea of how much survivability they could attain? Say if a veilwalker got into a mine, would he be able to one-shot the crafters there, or would they at least be able to survive a bit until help arrived? Might 5 crafters be able to band together and kill the dirty assasin? Obviously, exact numbers would vary, and you can't say anything concrete, but generally speaking, how big would the gap be? For crafters, will stats relevant to combat improve through crafting?
As appealing as the crafting system sounds, wouldn't the fact that crafters are gimped in combat be a disincentive to those who want to be pure crafter, seeing as there is an inherent combat risk to many aspects of crafting? You and others have talked about bringing some combatants along to protect the crafters. Would there be something those combatants can do to help contribute in the time (possibly 90% of it) when there's no combat happening?
If crafting and combat systems are too separated, you'd get a certain asymmetry of action when they are forced together. The above hypothetical is an example. In a major mining operation, the crafters could be choice targets to take out (depends a lot on their survivability), especially if you have assassin classes in the game. Fine, bring some guards. But if they've already created the abilities they want, is there anything else they can do? Conversely, when you're headed out to siege a castle, wouldn't the crafters be left out of the action until they're needed to build the siege engines or whatever they do there? It sounds like a recipe for boredom/frustration in many cases.
As it sounds now, I probably would bring my combatant to major mines, then bring my crafter. That way I could have some backup ready if some gankers show up.
Why all the gobbo craze? Everyone knows elves are where it's at...
Surely, if some humans survived the veilstorms unscathed, some elves must have too. Right??
Really though, I can't wait to see what other races they'll be adding. Personally, I'd find it hard to feel invested in the home and flavor items for something like a goblin, to live as such a disgusting creature