"You’re a bad player and you need to get better"

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  • Arkade99Arkade99 Parsippany, NJMember UncommonPosts: 322
    i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..

    This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
    You have access to their books, I assume, since you know so much about how they are spending their money. What else can you tell us?
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember RarePosts: 1,483
    If you suck you suck.  QQ moar.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,056
    i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..

    This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
    So true, the amount of marketing these guys do is crazy, so much so that I can't find one example of it...
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,056
    Rhoklaw said:
    There are more forms to PvP than the elitist style presented in this thread. In high school sports, my team didn't ridicule the other team when they lost, claiming they sucked. We always congratulated them on a good game and vice versa if we lost. That is the point trying to be made about Mr. Coleman's statement. PvP will always have a winning and a losing side. It's how BOTH sides react to the outcome that determines just what kind of community that game is focused on. If Crowfall is all about an elitist style approach to PvP, than that is exactly what I have no interest in. You can win a battle and never speak a word afterwards or you can chant "worldstar" the whole time like your some important person that everyone should pay attention to.
    Big difference between your high school team and online gaming is this whole internet thing. Why some folks seem to not grasp why people act the way they do online is beyond me.

    Lets pretend that nasty/violent rivalries don't exist in real sports...

    I'm all for virtual sportsmanship and what not, but doesn't matter if you are playing a "hardcore" stab stab PVP game or AOL Checkers for ages 10+, people are simply crap to one another behind the keyboard and screen.

    Regardless, the statement in question had little to nothing to do with this. Wasn't about showing others respect or not, but rather pointing out that their game isn't being designed around everyone is a winner mentality. Each class/role will have pros/cons and someone expecting a result that isn't possible due to the design is playing badly.

    No different than if I knew the rules of  Chess yet  tried to use my Pawns like a Queen. If the creator of Chess sad I was bad, I wouldn't go cry about.

    Funny thing is there are folks on both sides of the imaginary fence missing the point in this thread. The comment had no fence included.
  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLMember EpicPosts: 4,906
    Viper482 said:

    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.

    “If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.” 

     – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

    Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.


    Odd he sent you the same exact statement found in his interview.  I'm kinda thinking you didn't receive an email claiming such a thing.  Anyways they described that not every class will be good at everything.  Not saying your claim was invalid but maybe it is.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Allein said:
    i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..

    This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
    So true, the amount of marketing these guys do is crazy, so much so that I can't find one example of it...
    Ahahaha :D I was thinking the same thing. I haven't seen any marketing from these guys since the KS campaign. Lots of videos of the progress they're making and the work they're doing, though. 


    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHMember UncommonPosts: 3,090
    Viper482 said:

    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.

    “If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.” 

     – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

    Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.

    Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    azzamasin said:
    Viper482 said:

    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.

    “If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.” 

     – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

    Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.

    Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
    But... how do you really feel? 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemMember EpicPosts: 2,023


    LOL
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,056
    Loktofeit said:
    Allein said:
    i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..

    This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
    So true, the amount of marketing these guys do is crazy, so much so that I can't find one example of it...
    Ahahaha :D I was thinking the same thing. I haven't seen any marketing from these guys since the KS campaign. Lots of videos of the progress they're making and the work they're doing, though. 


    Apparently progress updates are "marketing" and cost tons of money. Who knew.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,056

    azzamasin said:
    Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
    Proof that you and others react to things without taking a moment to look into the context.

    If it wasn't for PVP, MMOs would long be dead. Not to say that PVP is done well the majority of the time, but competition vs others in one form or another keeps players coming back long after the PVE grind has become a chore.

    Personally I find the "everyone is equal and a winner" to be more detrimental to gaming and life in general than whatever PVP can do. Watered down lowest common denominator design is what has produced one blah game after another. Not a surprise to me that "PVP" games as a whole totally dominate in the numbers department compared to "PVE" games (which there are few these days).

    Really don't get the whole "elitist" comments, no where are they coming off as being superior to anyone else. Every single indie/crowdfunded game coming out is going for a niche crowd and wants to make a game a particular way for a particular group. Opposite of which is making a one size fits all experience that works so well... Guess some folks believe that if a game isn't specifically designed for them than it is terrible or something, but seems rather silly to me.
  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVMember UncommonPosts: 5,135
    azzamasin said:
    Viper482 said:

    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.

    “If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.” 

     – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

    Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.

    Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
    The sooner we (in the general sense) stop feeling the need to be handheld, the sooner we can start having better games.

    What the email said is NOT elitist, and is infact a good mentallity to have when balancing a game. Game balance gets absolutely trashed when you start adjusting numbers (that may or may not be working) because people start complaining. The key part to the email is the context.

    'If you immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak'

    That is a conscious decision by the player, and the director is informing you that this is not a game designed around everyone being equal at all times.

    If you read the email careful you realize that he's talking about willfully putting yourself in bad situations, not about winning or losing. He's not criticizing a player for losing. He's stating that players should learn to put themselves in better situations (within the game) before immediately crying OP. Something most players do in ALL games, and something that has actually ruined many decent PvP games (because devs made the mistake of listening to these people).

    If you find that bit of truth offensive, you honestly should work on being more open minded / having a thicker skin. There's a huge difference between anti-elitism and anti-intellectualism / anti-truth, and most people use all of those interchangeably.

  • YashaXYashaX Baldurs GateMember RarePosts: 2,010
    Just sounds like good advice to me, you'd have to be hypersensitive and have very low reading comprehension to take that comment as insulting, especially given the context.
    ....
  • kenpokillerkenpokiller Member UncommonPosts: 321
    10 years later and I still die in this MMO I play.
    I've been practicing my combos in Tekken the past 6 years and I still sometimes drop them.
    Who do I blame when I lose
    Myself

    Is it really that hard lol
    You fall, you stand back up, you come back with a vengeange :dizzy: 
    Every loss is a learning experience ^-^

    Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!

  • ZushakonZushakon JönköpingMember UncommonPosts: 147
    edited October 2015
    i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..

    This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
    What info would that be? And none of their money goes into marketing, [mod edit]
    Post edited by Vaross on

    Darkfall Unholy Wars:
    Zushakon Odi

  • HabitualFrogStompHabitualFrogStomp SydneyMember UncommonPosts: 370
    edited November 2015
    Originally posted by Viper482

    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.

    “If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.” 

     – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

    Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.

    If I got an email from a gaming company that told me that I would immediately stop playing. I would have nothing to do with a company that immature. That is an absurd statement from a representative from a company trying to sell you an enjoyable gaming experience. I can't fathom they told you that. What a disaster from the start. Don't walk, run from that game even if it's good, because an attitude like that is destined to fail. What is so comical is this guy is the Creative Director. I doubt the sales department would approve lol. Can you imagine selling a product and telling the person buying it if you don't like the product it's your fault? Just wow I'm totally stunned.

    This is awful logic, just terrible.

    I want a creative director with a vision and one who's going to have a backbone and stick to the design of the game. If you have some mewling infant as a "creative director" who's going to attempt to cater to as many different people as possible, you're going to have incoherent design that makes absolutely no sense.

    Your logic would dictate that the game starts off with the original design, the design that everyone put their money on the counter and bought, and the "director" has about 3000 little chirping monkeys in his ear all at once telling him sob stories on the forums and eventually all these sad tales cause things get dumbed down and homogenized.

    [mod edit]

    Thank you.
    Post edited by Vaross on
  • MaquiameMaquiame Member UncommonPosts: 1,073
    i highly doubt that the developers of this game can create a competitive pvp game.. based on the info they have given us..

    This will just be another commercial mmo.. heck half of their kickstarter money goes into marketing.
    These guys made Shadowbane which is considered to be one of the top pvp mmorpgs of all time. Please talk what you know.

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin BelgradeMember RarePosts: 993
    The author of the classical "Youre a bad player..." just gave a reddit AMA together with CF co-founder Gordon Walton.

    Also kinda offtopic, some info about the ongoing test sessions:


    ...with brief vid summary here.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,541
    azzamasin said:
    Further proof I'll never play this Elitist Game and it is even more proof why I think PvP is cancerous and detrimental for MMO's.
    The term MMORPG was actually coined by Richard Garriott related to Ultima Online and the vast majority of 1st gen MMOs were PvP related.   Whether you like them or not is simply personal opinion but calling them "cancerous and detrimental" is silly.


    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • AnaraionAnaraion StuttgartMember UncommonPosts: 10
    Allein said:

     

    Context

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU

     

    Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.

    Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.

    Crowfall is meant to be a social, strategy, skill based game, not a solo everyone is amazing at everything experience.

    Once again though, much opinion without much context, never get how people can feel strongly about something that they haven't even bothered to spend literally 3 mins looking into...I get that they put the comment out there so it is what it is, but still, we tend to assume so much =)

    Really glad they are going this route where each character can be unique and not watered down versions of basic builds that many games suffer from. Which eventually ends up everyone complaining so and so can do something better and ignores everything they can do. Pick what you want to do well, accept the shortcomings that come with that choice.


    I have read this whole thread and I am amazed this awesome post didn't end it.

    Watch the video and understand they explain the whole situation in a lucid but light hearted way and then humorously make the comment at the end.


  • vadio123vadio123 inferno, ALMember UncommonPosts: 592
    so much drama!

    image image

  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,987
    I understand the OP's point. But to pvp online you have to have a thick skin and be able to shake off those types of slights. Worse insults will come.  

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 6,223
    In the video they say rock papers scissors isn't fun.  Then they describe creating classes that are rock paper scissors.  The example of a player being good as an assassin but not good at other things so he should stick to what he's good at is exactly what rock paper scissors playstyle is, rocks go after scissors and they will do better.

    I thought if players aren't playing the game as intended it was because the game allowed them to play in unintended ways.  The game world sets the rules and once the player logs into that world he is subject to those rules.  If the rules are explained well, the players know what their getting into.  If the player is expected to work out what the rules are for themselves then that's a different story.  They will need some clarifications as they work stuff out.  Such as, "Is this really working as intended?"

    If players are playing the game wrong there should be plenty next to them telling them how it should be played unless most are playing it wrong then the problem isn't the players.


    "Change is the only constant."


  • nationalcitynationalcity Decatur, MIMember UncommonPosts: 501
    edited November 2015
    But the problem is there only hurting themselves with something so dumb in an email before the game is even out...

    I mean we have had what a handful in just this thread alone saying now they wouldn't back because of it that's bad judgement on his/there part to write something so idiotic, it doesn't really matter if he meant it that way or not most are not gonna take the time to really research what he was saying there gonna see what he said and turn the other way.......
    Post edited by nationalcity on
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXMember UncommonPosts: 2,500
    There is usually a spark of truth in any generalization, but that doesn't make it the right thing to say or even think, since more often than not, after saying or thinking it, you'll find your proverbial foot in your proverbial mouth.

    image
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