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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
Because the alternative is a Guild Wars 2 style experience? Not that there is anything wrong with GW 2 but there are plenty of games that funnel players through content keeping it well signposted and level appropriate.
There is room for a few games that go "Welcome to the world, its a great place but you are going to have to learn about it and work hard to become good". You can make a good fun and at the same time require a player to learn the game and invest time and effort into mastering it.
I think thats what they are trying to say here, now they have not done it in a very smart way given the ability for their target audience to take offence at everything, but they made a statement, "our game will f**k you up if you dont prepare properly" now time will tell if they can back that up.
I'm a reformed open world PvP player. I think it's impossible to make a good game. MOBA still work, but not open world.
I loved Darkfall, the boats, the archery, the crafting and everything, then things started to settle out in a bad way. Fair fights almost never happened, it was either a lopsided win or loss and I don't enjoy either.
Archage same thing, and it was worse at PVE. Eve the same, but with more boredom. GW1 was twice the PvP game GW2 is.
If you like lopsided fights and big impersonal zero guilds then maybe games like this are for you I thought they were for me, but they aren't.
I'm a reformed open world PvP player. I think it's impossible to make a good game. MOBA still work, but not open world.
I loved Darkfall, the boats, the archery, the crafting and everything, then things started to settle out in a bad way. Fair fights almost never happened, it was either a lopsided win or loss and I don't enjoy either.
Archage same thing, and it was worse at PVE. Eve the same, but with more boredom. GW1 was twice the PvP game GW2 is.
If you like lopsided fights and big impersonal zero guilds then maybe games like this are for you I thought they were for me, but they aren't.
Many of the issues that eventually degrade the experience in other PVP games seem to be either gone or reworked to avoid such things in Crowfall.
Hence the win/victory conditions for campaigns, heavy reliance on resources, loss on death, friendly fire, collision, physics, no safe areas, etc.
True that open world and fair don't go together, but I've seen small groups destroy much larger ones in a few games. Size doesn't always matter.
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
If I got an email from a gaming company that told me that I would immediately stop playing. I would have nothing to do with a company that immature. That is an absurd statement from a representative from a company trying to sell you an enjoyable gaming experience. I can't fathom they told you that. What a disaster from the start. Don't walk, run from that game even if it's good, because an attitude like that is destined to fail. What is so comical is this guy is the Creative Director. I doubt the sales department would approve lol. Can you imagine selling a product and telling the person buying it if you don't like the product it's your fault? Just wow I'm totally stunned.
It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.
The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"
Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?
I'd call it freedom of choice. Emergent gameplay, even. The people that play your game the 'least right' are usually the people that are most remembered. When EVE Online was released, the original team had what they thought was a good idea of how players were going to use the worldspace. They expected a decent amount of time before players started venturing into the scarier FFA regions of space. Players not only headed there, but did so in droves, curiously carving out areas by nationality, of all things.
In 2009, when wormhole space was introduced, the players surprised the developers once again. The space was designed for exploration, with the chance of getting your pilot locked into some hostile purgatory a real possibility. Not only could a wormhole close behind you, but the mobs in there were programmed with an AI far superior to most mob AI. Players scanned down wormholes, categorized them, headed in, kicked ass, and set up stations and entire crafting operations. That wasn't what the space was designed for but, in EVE Online - and I would surmise almost every other sandbox-style MMO - when the players don't play as the devs intended, their world/universe evolves just a little bit more.
I see players not using something 'right' to be a good thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Bladestrom Wildstar played the 'we are aiming for hardcore' (aka elitist) card and failed as well. To be honest, it will either fail, or attract elitist idiots. win win for everyone in any case
Yes... elitist idiots... the same idiots who are world first and first to complete content even prior to content being nerfed. The same players who can make a living playing games like League of Legends, DOTA, Counter Strike, Street Fighter. They're the idiots who've mastered the game.
Not the players who are too lazy or unwilling to learn the game and the characters they play to the fullest extent and then go and complain that the game is broken because they didn't win.
I'm not saying I'm the best in a game but seriously gaming today is so easy it takes literally no skill to play unless you're playing against other competitive players.
This is what makes rank systems in MOBA's, competitive FPS's, and RTS games so great. It keeps all the bad players at the low tiers so the good players are put into matches with players who give two shits about the product they're playing.
This is what makes gating off the lazy players from raid content in older games such as EQ, Original WoW, and FFXIV ARR. The players who want to be the best will work for it while the others will wait to get carried.
This is what makes me the happiest in the end. Because I know I'm good enough to get in a guild who's able to use their skills to take advantage of those lazy players. Because once we put content on farm we start selling runs for content amassing millions in in-game currency from those lazy and unskilled players who are unwilling enough to be 'elitist'. Even if the content only takes a week to learn.
At the end of the day. Bad players will remain second rate and call those who are actually good at a game "elitist idiots" or "no-life gamers".
Now excuse me while I try to increase my ranking in Pacman Championship Edition DX.
Holy ^&*( .has anything ever gone over someone's head so far? Being good at a game doesn't make someone an elitist idiot... being pretentious and standing up to shout how awesome you are does....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Sounds like good, realistic advice, not leet speak.
I'm a reformed open world PvP player. I think it's impossible to make a good game. MOBA still work, but not open world.
I loved Darkfall, the boats, the archery, the crafting and everything, then things started to settle out in a bad way. Fair fights almost never happened, it was either a lopsided win or loss and I don't enjoy either.
Archage same thing, and it was worse at PVE. Eve the same, but with more boredom. GW1 was twice the PvP game GW2 is.
If you like lopsided fights and big impersonal zero guilds then maybe games like this are for you I thought they were for me, but they aren't.
To be honest I think Crowfall is designed exactly with people like you in mind. Open world PvP games like Darkfall and Shadowbane are always extremely awesome at server resets/launch and a few months afterwards before things start to settle out in a bad way as you say, which seems inevitable sadly. Crowfall will attempt to solve this with it's dying words and Todd and the others at ACE has been addressing concern like yours(shared by many others as well) a lot. All in all I love their openness towards the community, they have a great vision for the game and their iteration process seems like something that could birth something great.
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Sounds like good, realistic advice, not leet speak.
I'm a reformed open world PvP player. I think it's impossible to make a good game. MOBA still work, but not open world.
I loved Darkfall, the boats, the archery, the crafting and everything, then things started to settle out in a bad way. Fair fights almost never happened, it was either a lopsided win or loss and I don't enjoy either.
Archage same thing, and it was worse at PVE. Eve the same, but with more boredom. GW1 was twice the PvP game GW2 is.
If you like lopsided fights and big impersonal zero guilds then maybe games like this are for you I thought they were for me, but they aren't.
To be honest I think Crowfall is designed exactly with people like you in mind. Open world PvP games like Darkfall and Shadowbane are always extremely awesome at server resets/launch and a few months afterwards before things start to settle out in a bad way as you say, which seems inevitable sadly. Crowfall will attempt to solve this with it's dying words and Todd and the others at ACE has been addressing concern like yours(shared by many others as well) a lot. All in all I love their openness towards the community, they have a great vision for the game and their iteration process seems like something that could birth something great.
I don't care for PvP much, but I think Crowfall is doing a really interesting try at it. It addresses some of the problems of the genre in seemingly reasonable ways. It helps to have a strong focus and know what they want to do. Decent likelihood that I will give it a whirl.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I suppose this is why statements are usually filtered through PR guys, usually resulting in vague BS responses that don't actually answer shit. "This is why we can't have nice things."
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Sounds to me like they are having a bit of fun. People take these things too seriously. I think it's a fun little way of hyping the game as being different than the 'easy' games. Look at the threads on the forum by people who bemoan the easy turn MMOs have taken. Hell, there's one right now in the top 10, I think.
So, they try to dangle a bit of worm on the hook to get a few fish. Take it in stride.
I suppose this is why statements are usually filtered through PR guys, usually resulting in vague BS responses that don't actually answer shit. "This is why we can't have nice things."
I'm on the bad omen side. Whatever he wanted to say, it didn't come off well.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a
bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get
killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is
unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get
better.”
It does sound kind of like stating the obvious, but the way it's phrased isn't professional. Drunk game updateing maybe? Is that a thing? I think the thing that ruins most games, and movies, is someone arrogant in charge that gets to do things their way no matter what.
I am going to say that there are only two types of MMO players.
1 -The competitive MMO player, who cares about what other players are doing and how his play level relates to others.
2 -The casual MMO player, who plays for himself to have fun, who might want to join in and attempt some harder level content, but does not really care if they are successful or not.
It is the first type of player that simply cannot understand the second type. The second type understands the first all too well.
If a game aims for the first type of player, then the second type should probably steer clear, which is what they seem to be saying in this case.
If a game is aiming for the second type of player, the first type is still welcome, however they will most likely be dissatisfied and perhaps even disruptive to that game's community.
Such is the state of MMO's today.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
– J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director
Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
I like hard games and pvp, it's the bs shitty attitude that comes with it that I don't like. Even saying things like, "Good Game" or "GG" has turned into a gloat rather than being a good sport.
Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.
Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.
Crowfall is meant to be a social, strategy, skill based game, not a solo everyone is amazing at everything experience.
Once again though, much opinion without much context, never get how people can feel strongly about something that they haven't even bothered to spend literally 3 mins looking into...I get that they put the comment out there so it is what it is, but still, we tend to assume so much
Really glad they are going this route where each character can be unique and not watered down versions of basic builds that many games suffer from. Which eventually ends up everyone complaining so and so can do something better and ignores everything they can do. Pick what you want to do well, accept the shortcomings that come with that choice.
.....
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier.
Whether its true or false is honestly irrelevant. The real thing about the statement is how it was conveyed. If they care about press and public support, they could've conveyed the message differently, such as "Maybe players should utilize different tactics when encountering various situations." Less condescending that way regardless if the director meant it to be in that way or not.
Comments
Nah that's usually the PvE guys whining about balance.
I wish they implented fighter game mechanics in PvP games.
120+ move lists, cancellable moves too so 1000's of different setups
block high, mid, special mid, low
parry, counter
movement/spacement
stances/setups
It's truely so difficult it's an on-going challenge of one-self.
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Because the alternative is a Guild Wars 2 style experience? Not that there is anything wrong with GW 2 but there are plenty of games that funnel players through content keeping it well signposted and level appropriate.
There is room for a few games that go "Welcome to the world, its a great place but you are going to have to learn about it and work hard to become good". You can make a good fun and at the same time require a player to learn the game and invest time and effort into mastering it.
I think thats what they are trying to say here, now they have not done it in a very smart way given the ability for their target audience to take offence at everything, but they made a statement, "our game will f**k you up if you dont prepare properly" now time will tell if they can back that up.
I'm a reformed open world PvP player. I think it's impossible to make a good game. MOBA still work, but not open world.
I loved Darkfall, the boats, the archery, the crafting and everything, then things started to settle out in a bad way. Fair fights almost never happened, it was either a lopsided win or loss and I don't enjoy either.
Archage same thing, and it was worse at PVE. Eve the same, but with more boredom. GW1 was twice the PvP game GW2 is.
If you like lopsided fights and big impersonal zero guilds then maybe games like this are for you I thought they were for me, but they aren't.
Asdar
Many of the issues that eventually degrade the experience in other PVP games seem to be either gone or reworked to avoid such things in Crowfall.
Hence the win/victory conditions for campaigns, heavy reliance on resources, loss on death, friendly fire, collision, physics, no safe areas, etc.
True that open world and fair don't go together, but I've seen small groups destroy much larger ones in a few games. Size doesn't always matter.
If I got an email from a gaming company that told me that I would immediately stop playing. I would have nothing to do with a company that immature. That is an absurd statement from a representative from a company trying to sell you an enjoyable gaming experience. I can't fathom they told you that. What a disaster from the start. Don't walk, run from that game even if it's good, because an attitude like that is destined to fail. What is so comical is this guy is the Creative Director. I doubt the sales department would approve lol. Can you imagine selling a product and telling the person buying it if you don't like the product it's your fault? Just wow I'm totally stunned.
I'd call it freedom of choice. Emergent gameplay, even. The people that play your game the 'least right' are usually the people that are most remembered. When EVE Online was released, the original team had what they thought was a good idea of how players were going to use the worldspace. They expected a decent amount of time before players started venturing into the scarier FFA regions of space. Players not only headed there, but did so in droves, curiously carving out areas by nationality, of all things.
In 2009, when wormhole space was introduced, the players surprised the developers once again. The space was designed for exploration, with the chance of getting your pilot locked into some hostile purgatory a real possibility. Not only could a wormhole close behind you, but the mobs in there were programmed with an AI far superior to most mob AI. Players scanned down wormholes, categorized them, headed in, kicked ass, and set up stations and entire crafting operations. That wasn't what the space was designed for but, in EVE Online - and I would surmise almost every other sandbox-style MMO - when the players don't play as the devs intended, their world/universe evolves just a little bit more.
I see players not using something 'right' to be a good thing.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Holy ^&*( .has anything ever gone over someone's head so far? Being good at a game doesn't make someone an elitist idiot... being pretentious and standing up to shout how awesome you are does....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Sounds like good, realistic advice, not leet speak.
Darkfall Unholy Wars:
Zushakon Odi
To be honest I think Crowfall is designed exactly with people like you in mind. Open world PvP games like Darkfall and Shadowbane are always extremely awesome at server resets/launch and a few months afterwards before things start to settle out in a bad way as you say, which seems inevitable sadly. Crowfall will attempt to solve this with it's dying words and Todd and the others at ACE has been addressing concern like yours(shared by many others as well) a lot. All in all I love their openness towards the community, they have a great vision for the game and their iteration process seems like something that could birth something great.
Darkfall Unholy Wars:
Zushakon Odi
Yep, I learned things the hard way.
Now i'm a better player.
TOPKEK
TOPLEL
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
I don't care for PvP much, but I think Crowfall is doing a really interesting try at it. It addresses some of the problems of the genre in seemingly reasonable ways. It helps to have a strong focus and know what they want to do. Decent likelihood that I will give it a whirl.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
So, they try to dangle a bit of worm on the hook to get a few fish. Take it in stride.
I self identify as a monkey.
Too much "PC" in the world anyhow, so many butts hurt over a couple words.
Whatever he wanted to say, it didn't come off well.
“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”
It does sound kind of like stating the obvious, but the way it's phrased isn't professional.
Drunk game updateing maybe? Is that a thing?
I think the thing that ruins most games, and movies, is someone arrogant in charge that gets to do things their way no matter what.
1 -The competitive MMO player, who cares about what other players are doing and how his play level relates to others.
2 -The casual MMO player, who plays for himself to have fun, who might want to join in and attempt some harder level content, but does not really care if they are successful or not.
It is the first type of player that simply cannot understand the second type. The second type understands the first all too well.
If a game aims for the first type of player, then the second type should probably steer clear, which is what they seem to be saying in this case.
If a game is aiming for the second type of player, the first type is still welcome, however they will most likely be dissatisfied and perhaps even disruptive to that game's community.
Such is the state of MMO's today.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Context
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU
Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.
Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.
Crowfall is meant to be a social, strategy, skill based game, not a solo everyone is amazing at everything experience.
Once again though, much opinion without much context, never get how people can feel strongly about something that they haven't even bothered to spend literally 3 mins looking into...I get that they put the comment out there so it is what it is, but still, we tend to assume so much
Really glad they are going this route where each character can be unique and not watered down versions of basic builds that many games suffer from. Which eventually ends up everyone complaining so and so can do something better and ignores everything they can do. Pick what you want to do well, accept the shortcomings that come with that choice.
.....
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier.