"You’re a bad player and you need to get better"

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  • gizelmdcgizelmdc MabalacatMember Posts: 5
    Originally posted by DarLorkar
     Exactly my thoughts, also saying someone's bad will not make you any better too.

    Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class.

    Shocking, isn't it?

    heh

    Not shocking...a nightmare. Any time a dev has to try to tell players "the best way to play" that is a game to stay away from.

     

    A good dev watches how people play and then tunes the character, not try to tell people what they are doing wrong or how much they suck.

     

    Telling people how wrong they are might make some feel better...but does not seem to be a way to make people like, and want to keep playing a game. Pay me a salary..and i will be happy to do things your way...expect me to pay you so you can tell me i suck?....good luck with that.

     

  • mashiannmashiann ArayatMember Posts: 8
    A friend of mine just told me about this, this is soooo exiting!
  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by MissAdventure
    Originally posted by Allein
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage. Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others. Crowfall is meant to be a social, strategy, skill based game, not a solo everyone is amazing at everything experience. Once again though, much opinion without much context, never get how people can feel strongly about something that they haven't even bothered to spend literally 3 mins looking into...I get that they put the comment out there so it is what it is, but still, we tend to assume so much =) Really glad they are going this route where each character can be unique and not watered down versions of basic builds that many games suffer from. Which eventually ends up everyone complaining so and so can do something better and ignores everything they can do. Pick what you want to do well, accept the shortcomings that come with that choice.

    This isn't the age of research.  It's the age of 140 characters or less.  People aren't going to dig deep to find meaning on sh*tty comments like that.  It's all about face value, and then it goes viral.  That's why the internet explodes so often on so little now, and people's reputations can end in an instant.

    Luckily for Crowfall most of the backers have realized it's a PvP game by now so no one is likely going to be offended that the devs told a fictional example player to L2P.  I mean sure you can go rage about the quote on twitter, but since it doesn't involve racism good luck getting any traction on that.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,347
    Originally posted by Allein
      Context https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU   Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage. Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others. ...

    I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1.  These guy really get it.  However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.

    What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle." 


  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member RarePosts: 2,206

     

    I don't think it's the message people are adverse to, it's the delivery.  It's a standard fare PvP elitist attitude.  So called "hardcore" PvP elitist will find nothing wrong with the statement because they are of like mind.  That said, no one should really be surprised to hear this coming from a PvP-centric MMORPG developer.  Their mindset is no different than that of the average OWPvP gamer.   What can you say about game developers that continue to develop "non-consensual" OWPvP MMORPGs despite their long history of failures.  They can't help it and know no better.  Its in the DNA.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,990

    Well i should mention that the term "Balance" is often misused.

    What does balance mean?Do you really want each class and build to have 100% identical numbers?So you hit with any weapon and it always hits the same?Every healing mechanic returns identical healing numbers?The combat and game would big time suck.

    The way a game SHOULD work is paper/rock/scissors when comes to pvp especially.That is called active and reactive combat,for each situation you should have a reaction move.Now in saying that i have yet to see ANY developer aside from FFXI give this at least an attempt.

    You need a lot of properties in a game and skills to pull off good pvp and that is just a start.Then you need solid VARIOUS weapon choices and maps designed to support pvp.Example a fire suit defends well against water based attacks or armor works good versus some melee attacks but not against magic etc etc.Again this all takes a lot f owork and design,a game should never feel like it was half assed done.

    I seriously don't know why anyone would get  involved with a pvp rpg,it will NEVER be done better than half ass and i mean NEVER any dev tells you otherwise they are feeding you a load of crap.I was playing online pvp likely before  most developers even knew what it was and how it worked and did not work.

    Show me ONE rpg pvp game that makes maps designed for it?Then ask yourself are those maps actually any good?

    Just scratching the surface,you should have splash type damage,single target damage,guessing damage "if a dev doesn't know what that means,they should quit designing games immediately.Team work ideas like perhaps one player lays down some oil while another ignites it etc  etc,many ideas can stem from that idea.

    What is a total joke in these games is automated healing,example a player does some somersault that auto heals everyone nearby,retarded gimmicks like that turn me off.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,700
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Allein
      Context https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU   Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage. Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others. ...

    I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1.  These guy really get it.  However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.

    What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle." 

    I agree still context is key.

    Let's crucify devs over nothing.... yep that sums up a segment of gamer forums

     

     

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,655
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    It's hard to judge considering we don't know the context of the statement... or what it was in response to.

    Well they're the ones that did it lol. It was a single quote feature at the top of their email, and the subject of the email was the same as the one in this thread. If it was taken out of context they did it to themselves.

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,655
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Allein
      Context https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU   Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage. Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others. ...

    I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1.  These guy really get it.  However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.

    What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle." 

    I agree still context is key.

    Let's crucify devs over nothing.... yep that sums up a segment of gamer forums

     

     

    See my last post, I was not doing that. Thank you for accusing though. It is their own fault, they sent the email as that, no video or context included. It was a random quote.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by DarLorkar Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class. Shocking, isn't it? heh

    Not shocking...a nightmare. Any time a dev has to try to tell players "the best way to play" that is a game to stay away from.

    A good dev watches how people play and then tunes the character, not try to tell people what they are doing wrong or how much they suck.

    Telling people how wrong they are might make some feel better...but does not seem to be a way to make people like, and want to keep playing a game. Pay me a salary..and i will be happy to do things your way...expect me to pay you so you can tell me i suck?....good luck with that.

    Not necessarily, unless the dev is just regurgitating content that's been done before in other games. However, if a developer creates something that plays differently and functions differently than how players are normally used to, it makes sense for the devs to explain how and why it is different. 

    An example of that is ships in EVE Online. Someone coming from the standard fare of EQ/WOW style games will get a ship to love and cherish and hold forever, only to be devastated once it is blown to smithereens. Would you suggest making the ships of EVE permanent? Of course not, as that breaks a big portion of the core gameplay. Isn't it a more reasonable solution to explain to the player how the ships of EVE function, why they are different, and how to best use them? 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,700
    Originally posted by Viper482
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    It's hard to judge considering we don't know the context of the statement... or what it was in response to.

    Well they're the ones that did it lol. It was a single quote feature at the top of their email, and the subject of the email was the same as the one in this thread. If it was taken out of context they did it to themselves.

    it's a rookie PR mistake - not sure who is doing their marketing/community but the lack of clarity is on them.

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,700
    Originally posted by Viper482
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Dullahan
    Originally posted by Allein
      Context https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU   Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage. Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others. ...

    I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1.  These guy really get it.  However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.

    What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle." 

    I agree still context is key.

    Let's crucify devs over nothing.... yep that sums up a segment of gamer forums

     

     

    See my last post, I was not doing that. Thank you for accusing though. It is their own fault, they sent the email as that, no video or context included. It was a random quote.

    I am not accusing you of anything, sorry if it came across that way.

    You are being pretty resonable at this even as an OP

  • There's absolutely nothing remotely elitist or even PvP-specific about that comment. It's just common sense that the point of having classes is to not have them be the same. So a class will be better in some situations and worse than others. Just like in any other game with classes.

    Sounds like the devs took their own quote out of context for drama value.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,930

    Just PR hype speak not unlike what Wildstar was going for with their spin.

     

    The reality is that Crowfall is a F2P game: they want you no matter what and are trying to appeal to your ego since very few people consider themselves "bad."

    When you come to a fork on the road, take it.
    You can observe a lot by just watching.
    No one goes there nowadays, it's too crowded.

    -- Yogi --
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106

    Honesty is a sign of respect. What I mean by that is, most devs don't give players respect enough to be honest with them. Which often backfires at some point. As people aren't as dumb as they think.

    Here is a dev being brutally honest, that's rare.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Just PR hype speak not unlike what Wildstar was going for with their spin.   The reality is that Crowfall is a F2P game: they want you no matter what and are trying to appeal to your ego since very few people consider themselves "bad."

    That is a really really good point.  There is no such thing as a niche F2P game, the model doesn't support it.   The foundation for a F2P game is millions of players all buying 5 dollar hats and XP pots.

  • MorrowGamingMorrowGaming Barton-Le-ClayMember CommonPosts: 16
    Originally posted by DarLorkar
     

    Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class.

    Shocking, isn't it?

    heh

    Not shocking...a nightmare. Any time a dev has to try to tell players "the best way to play" that is a game to stay away from.

     

    A good dev watches how people play and then tunes the character, not try to tell people what they are doing wrong or how much they suck.

     

    Telling people how wrong they are might make some feel better...but does not seem to be a way to make people like, and want to keep playing a game. Pay me a salary..and i will be happy to do things your way...expect me to pay you so you can tell me i suck?....good luck with that.

    I have to disagree with you. There is way too much hand holding in gaming these days. You should be willing and required to learn how to play your chosen class and pick a class that suits your strengths. Yes perhaps you might suck at it at first, but once you master it the rewards will be yourself being better at it than most if not all players. And being a useful member to your team, plus the personal achievement of becoming good at something you was bad at for a while.

    It shouldn't be tuned for you to just jump in and be a master straight away, I'm so bored of how easy and cookie cutter classes are becoming in mmo's. Everything is designed to be dumbed down and balanced against everything in the entire game. It's a boring way of doing things.  Whats wrong with challenging people to learn and get good at something instead of just giving them a nice easy experience boring out the gate?

    The amount of people complaining about balance for every game these days is normally 9 times outta 10 because they aren't very good and there is nothing wrong with the game design/mechanics. This isn't a bad thing but they should learn and practice to get better the game shouldn't be changed to suit them it should be as the Devs intended and hopefully that will be a challenging experience with a sense of achievement at the end of it all.

    Failing that they should move on to something else that suits their play style or skill better, If I'm bad at a game I just don't improve I simply stop playing. I don't go on the forums or social media whining to the Devs that their game is broken and unbalanced.

    I'd be the first to agree that Devs look at the numbers they know what is really unbalanced and what isn't. That's the science in it, not just someones opinion that can't accept the fact that they are not playing very well or plain suck at what they are trying to do. Or even trying to take on content much higher than what they are meant to be doing, sometimes the player is to blame for being dumb and lazy.

  • HatefullHatefull Member RarePosts: 1,467


    Originally posted by Viper482
    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”  – J. Todd Coleman, Creative DirectorNot saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.


    Tactless and in very poor taste IMO. I also received this e-mail and while I consider myself a solid middle of the road PvPer I am by no means an elitist nor do I suffer their BS for long. I can appreciate people with skills and that are cool enough (read: humble) to ensure everyone is having fun. I would prefer to have a spirited as close to equal match as can be had, as opposed to a complete blow out where one side dominates the other.

    More to the point, I was a supporter of this game and was considering makeing a decent financial contribution. As it stands, I will keep my money (probably not, Star Citizen and The Repopulation look like solid investment at this time) and I will be erasing this game from my radar.

    The silver lining is; Thank you for warning me early about the type of community you wish to attract. Good luck with your niche game, and I hope the unemployment line isn't too long.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • raggnirraggnir larbaa nath irathenMember UncommonPosts: 51

    it's not elitism, it's just that you are probably a carebear and can't accept to hear from someone else that you are bad.

    i don't see why every player should have access to 100% of a game's content if they do not offer the slightest amount of effort.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,700
    Originally posted by goboygo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Just PR hype speak not unlike what Wildstar was going for with their spin.   The reality is that Crowfall is a F2P game: they want you no matter what and are trying to appeal to your ego since very few people consider themselves "bad."

    That is a really really good point.  There is no such thing as a niche F2P game, the model doesn't support it.   The foundation for a F2P game is millions of players all buying 5 dollar hats and XP pots.

    Actually not true - cash shops that target the small paying playerbase can bring in higher profits even with lower playerbase.

    It's about successful monetization of paying playerbase which is a very small % of overall players.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,778


    Originally posted by greenbow54

    If a scientist says that global warming is real, I believe them, because they're a scientist.


    You can, for sure believe anything that flies your boat, however that does not make one right...

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,778


    Originally posted by DMKanoDid I say they were more than people?Did I say that whatever devs say is immutable? Ehm - YOU are saying these things - not me, this is your own conjecture  You sound jelly :)

    No, you are saying these things since it is you who is using an authority in an attempt to provide backing to your unsupported claims.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Originally posted by raggnir
    it's not elitism, it's just that you are probably a carebear and can't accept to hear from someone else that you are bad. i don't see why every player should have access to 100% of a game's content if they do not offer the slightest amount of effort.

    Yeah nothing elitist here at all...image

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member RarePosts: 2,206

    Even though I don't agree with the message or delivery, I do think the message is right on par with their player base.  PvP communities tent to be toxic, demanding, and very critical when it comes to class balance.  Most do not like to lose to another player in PvP and when they do it can never be because of their lack of skill or ability, so their failure must be due to a lack of balance or something else.  And they are never shy to come to the game's forums, and other forums, and slander the game and its Developers, screaming from here to high heaven about how jacked-up the game is.  These Devs were probably tired of hearing it and drafted the email out of frustration.  Many of us on this thread are of a different mindset so we see the obvious wrong but sometimes the source needs to be taken into consideration.  I think most of us would agree that most PvPers need more of this type of "elitist" straight talk.  Fighting fire with fire is often times the best solution.

  • greenbow54greenbow54 Omaha, NEMember UncommonPosts: 127

    All the scrub carebears crawling out of the woodwork in droves.

     

    If you take offense to this, you're the bad player he is referring to. You make team games less fun, unless you're on the other side. Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, if it isn't too challenging for you.

     

    /flameon

    Frykka

    image

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