"You’re a bad player and you need to get better"

Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,655

Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.

“If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.” 

 – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director

Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.

Pimennys
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Comments

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghMember UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Wildstar played the 'we are aiming for hardcore' (aka elitist) card and failed as well.  To be honest, it will either fail, or attract elitist idiots.  win win for everyone in any case :)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • BanyoHDBanyoHD Member UncommonPosts: 32
    The market for these hardcore PVP games seem to be getting smaller by the day. For me personally the toxic community in these games is what most often becomes it's downfall. At the same time I am tired of sugar coated content where you win easily and become the hero at the end of the day. The game has to be competent enough to be able to throw a hard fastball at you once in a while where you feel that you've been beaten. This game is likely years away from release so we won't know what the final product will be like. But to be honest I'm surprised to see these games get such a large mainstream following. Hardcore rule sets sound fun on paper but it all comes down to execution. It's pretty worrying that a dev has this kind of mentality. It reminds me of the public statements that I've heard from CCP the makers of EVE. And we all know how that community is like...
    Alverant
  • Temp0Temp0 Memphis, IAMember UncommonPosts: 80
    To be honest I don't get elitism from this, instead I get the feeling that somebody was quite mad (I imagine they are getting a lot of complaints that are unreasonable) and unwisely chose to express that in a poorly thought out public message.
  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide SwedenMember UncommonPosts: 722
    maybe being blunt helps? PvP players tend to be an unhappy bunch that refuse to admit that they might not be as good as they think they are. just look at any pvp forum and it is like "i blame this, i blame that, i blame everything but me" 

    kek

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,345

    That does sound like a silly thing to write in an email, even if its somewhat true.  Its just tactless.

    Crowfall, however, is different enough that it could attract a whole new crowd of players rather than the usual elitist sandbox players.  Its season based, has more casual ruleset servers, and is more like a massive moba than an mmo.  I'm sure it will have its share of elitists, but it also seems like the kind of game you can jump in and just have some fun.


  • ErgoProxyDecayErgoProxyDecay a City, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,489
    I see nothing wrong int hat statement, If you enter a game/dungeon and am underleveled whether you are below level or undergeared, dont expect to not fail over and over and over.


    "Basking in your hatred... Feels quite nice." - Raven
  • KenFisherKenFisher Northwest, INMember UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Classic "You're not playing it right".

     

    It is kind of difficult to say that and not come off elitist, but on the other hand it might be correct.

     

    The question I would have is "Why would you design a game that allows players to not play it right?"

     

    Wouldn't that be a failing of design and mechanics?

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247

     

    They took a page from the Fury playbook. Next email....

     

    Subject: LOSER! LOSER! LLLOOOOSSSSEEEERRRRR!

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,655
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    maybe being blunt helps? PvP players tend to be an unhappy bunch that refuse to admit that they might not be as good as they think they are. just look at any pvp forum and it is like "i blame this, i blame that, i blame everything but me" 

    Like I said....sometimes it IS true. But I recall complaining about legit crap in guild even and there is always that one guy, Mr. Elitist, who insists you just suck. You can make your case until you are blue in the face and it will still come down to you are a baddie, a scrub, insert whatever other elitist insult here. Also note that guy typically plays the class you are complaining about as his main lol. No bias there....

    Dude hit it on the head, even if true it just lacks tact. This is not what I want to hear about of the guys making the game. This tells me one....they are elitist types....two....they think their %^&* doesn't stink. Their game cannot possibly be unbalanced, it's just YOU! Terrible message.

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,055

     

    Context

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU

     

    Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.

    Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.

    Crowfall is meant to be a social, strategy, skill based game, not a solo everyone is amazing at everything experience.

    Once again though, much opinion without much context, never get how people can feel strongly about something that they haven't even bothered to spend literally 3 mins looking into...I get that they put the comment out there so it is what it is, but still, we tend to assume so much =)

    Really glad they are going this route where each character can be unique and not watered down versions of basic builds that many games suffer from. Which eventually ends up everyone complaining so and so can do something better and ignores everything they can do. Pick what you want to do well, accept the shortcomings that come with that choice.

  • MissAdventureMissAdventure Ottawa, ONMember UncommonPosts: 83
    Originally posted by Viper482
    Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though. “If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better.”   – J. Todd Coleman, Creative Director Not saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.

    Email him back.

     

    "Thanks, Todd, but go F yourself."

     

    I abhor that attitude.  To have it come from the Creative Director?  Wow.  That's the sort of news that sets barns on fire.  Elitist BS like that earns them a big zero of funding from this pumpkin.

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXMember UncommonPosts: 437
    It's hard to judge considering we don't know the context of the statement... or what it was in response to.
    Allerleirauh

    image
  • MissAdventureMissAdventure Ottawa, ONMember UncommonPosts: 83
    Originally posted by Allein
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZZnyB-ydU Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage. Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others. Crowfall is meant to be a social, strategy, skill based game, not a solo everyone is amazing at everything experience. Once again though, much opinion without much context, never get how people can feel strongly about something that they haven't even bothered to spend literally 3 mins looking into...I get that they put the comment out there so it is what it is, but still, we tend to assume so much =) Really glad they are going this route where each character can be unique and not watered down versions of basic builds that many games suffer from. Which eventually ends up everyone complaining so and so can do something better and ignores everything they can do. Pick what you want to do well, accept the shortcomings that come with that choice.

    This isn't the age of research.  It's the age of 140 characters or less.  People aren't going to dig deep to find meaning on sh*tty comments like that.  It's all about face value, and then it goes viral.  That's why the internet explodes so often on so little now, and people's reputations can end in an instant.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,696

    Ive talked to game devs about watching players play their games - and yes sometimes they cringe at poor gameplay.

    I see nothing wrong with needing to get better line.

    Accepting your own suckage is the first step to improvement.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVMember RarePosts: 2,743

    It's one thing when players say this to other players, while it can be an omen of elitism it usually has it's roots in the "yeah buddy, I've been in those same shoes, and then I got better and since I've said it a million times to newbs I'm just gonna say, "git gud".

     

    But when the company says that, it tells me two things:

    1. It's going to be a gigantic pain to get the devs to see imbalance if they're already coming from a perspective of "sorry but you're bad."

    2. You're holding your iPhone wrong.

  • greenbow54greenbow54 Omaha, NEMember UncommonPosts: 127

    What is wrong with his statement? He is absolutely correct in the context that his statement was made. Watch the entire video before making assumptions.

     

    If you play a rogue, and your class is DESIGNED to be less effective vs a warrior, why would you continually attack warriors, just to fail over and over and hurt your team. They aren't trying to balance the game so that every single class is even in a 1v1 situation, because that hasn't worked in any game ever; the very rare times when it has worked, it hasn't been for very long, and it takes significant time and resources from the devs. Every class has a counter, and every class has a job in a team fight.

     

    In a PVE game, it would be the same as being a level 15 and continually trying to kill level 35 elites over and over. It isn't a game flaw, you're just bad (or retarded), and you need to get better at the game.

    image

  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide SwedenMember UncommonPosts: 722
    Originally posted by Viper482
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    maybe being blunt helps? PvP players tend to be an unhappy bunch that refuse to admit that they might not be as good as they think they are. just look at any pvp forum and it is like "i blame this, i blame that, i blame everything but me" 

    Like I said....sometimes it IS true. But I recall complaining about legit crap in guild even and there is always that one guy, Mr. Elitist, who insists you just suck. You can make your case until you are blue in the face and it will still come down to you are a baddie, a scrub, insert whatever other elitist insult here. Also note that guy typically plays the class you are complaining about as his main lol. No bias there....

    Dude hit it on the head, even if true it just lacks tact. This is not what I want to hear about of the guys making the game. This tells me one....they are elitist types....two....they think their %^&* doesn't stink. Their game cannot possibly be unbalanced, it's just YOU! Terrible message.

    well atleast it's a new approach to things gotta give em that.

    anyway it doesn't bother me much i just hope they communicate with their community lots of devs does not seem to think that to be important.

    kek

  • MissAdventureMissAdventure Ottawa, ONMember UncommonPosts: 83
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Ive talked to game devs about watching players play their games - and yes sometimes they cringe at poor gameplay. I see nothing wrong with needing to get better line. Accepting your own suckage is the first step to improvement.

    Ah.  Your tired old, "I know a dev and this is what he told me." line to back up something you say.  News flash, bud:  they're just people.  Just because someone said something, in whatever capacity they hold in life, does not make it immutable.  And having to use that to reinforce your opinion just underlines how weak your actual position really is.

  • PoliticaldadPoliticaldad WashingtonMember UncommonPosts: 96

     

    really this thread is just standard fair for comments and what not for MMORPG...

    **insert comment**  as truth and post hurtness

    It's like throwing out troll-food and then sitting in a lawn chair waiting to see what posts come next.

    I do agree though, if you enter a situation that the outcome is 100% wipe repeating over and over..... don't be angry... get new tactics or gear  :)

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIMember RarePosts: 9,109
    This awesome. I was just thinking about linking it aswell.
  • greenbow54greenbow54 Omaha, NEMember UncommonPosts: 127
    Originally posted by MissAdventure
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Ive talked to game devs about watching players play their games - and yes sometimes they cringe at poor gameplay. I see nothing wrong with needing to get better line. Accepting your own suckage is the first step to improvement.

    Ah.  Your tired old, "I know a dev and this is what he told me." line to back up something you say.  News flash, bud:  they're just people.  Just because someone said something, in whatever capacity they hold in life, does not make it immutable.  And having to use that to reinforce your opinion just underlines how weak your actual position really is.

    If a scientist says that global warming is real, I believe them, because they're a scientist.

    If a Nascar driver tells me something is wrong with my car, I believe them, because they know cars.

     

    Having an industry professional state something generally has more gravity than Joe Schmo, and strengthens an assertion.

     

    image

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,696
    Originally posted by MissAdventure
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Ive talked to game devs about watching players play their games - and yes sometimes they cringe at poor gameplay. I see nothing wrong with needing to get better line. Accepting your own suckage is the first step to improvement.

    Ah.  Your tired old, "I know a dev and this is what he told me." line to back up something you say.  News flash, bud:  they're just people.  Just because someone said something, in whatever capacity they hold in life, does not make it immutable.  And having to use that to reinforce your opinion just underlines how weak your actual position really is.

     

    Did I say they were more than people?

    Did I say that whatever devs say is immutable?

     

    Ehm - YOU are saying these things - not me, this is your own conjecture 

     

    You sound jelly :)

     

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,696
    Originally posted by greenbow54
    Originally posted by MissAdventure
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Ive talked to game devs about watching players play their games - and yes sometimes they cringe at poor gameplay. I see nothing wrong with needing to get better line. Accepting your own suckage is the first step to improvement.

    Ah.  Your tired old, "I know a dev and this is what he told me." line to back up something you say.  News flash, bud:  they're just people.  Just because someone said something, in whatever capacity they hold in life, does not make it immutable.  And having to use that to reinforce your opinion just underlines how weak your actual position really is.

    If a scientist says that global warming is real, I believe them, because they're a scientist.

    If a Nascar driver tells me something is wrong with my car, I believe them, because they know cars.

     

    Having an industry professional state something generally has more gravity than Joe Schmo, and strengthens an assertion.

     

    Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class.

    Shocking, isn't it?

    heh

  • DarLorkarDarLorkar Texarkana, TXMember UncommonPosts: 1,082

     

    Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class. Shocking, isn't it? heh

    Not shocking...a nightmare. Any time a dev has to try to tell players "the best way to play" that is a game to stay away from.

     

    A good dev watches how people play and then tunes the character, not try to tell people what they are doing wrong or how much they suck.

     

    Telling people how wrong they are might make some feel better...but does not seem to be a way to make people like, and want to keep playing a game. Pay me a salary..and i will be happy to do things your way...expect me to pay you so you can tell me i suck?....good luck with that.

    ZionBane
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYMember UncommonPosts: 2,631

    If you watch the video to give the quote some context you'll realize he's right.  He wasn't being elitist at all.  You people can put the pitchforks down.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

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