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Will twinking exsist?
dcutbi001
Member UncommonPosts: 49
I'm hoping, that on some level, they will allow for twinking. I can honestly say that a large part of the joy for me while playing EQ was logging in and trying to find twink gear for my alts for hours on end. Beyond the fun I had looking to gear up my alts, it was always fun grouping with other players twinked out alts and being amazed at their capabilities. I also remember being the geared out alt that grouped with new players, and the excitement it created for both parties. Saving the coin and being able to use it for something fun and exciting like twinking an alt is something I miss from the original EQ specifically.
With the modern day gear systems ( gear sets and level requirements) I've not really been able to recreate the experience I had in those days. The closest thing I can think of was in vanilla WoW finding and buying the epic weapons like the fiery war axe, Kang the decapitator, and the Kroll blade (tossing on a few enchants while you're at it), but, while that was fun, it brought a much lesser degree of enjoyment.
One more aside that ties into another active thread in these boards, twinking can/will give more experienced players reasons to make alts and run them through the starting zone. Some of the best and most long lasting friends I ever made in EQ was a result of this. Not to mention the countless other vets playing alts that would help out the new players by throwing them a few plat, giving them a nice hand me down piece of gear, logging in their main to help with a nasty mob, or maybe just teach them something new.
I do expect to see no drop gear at higher levels, but for the low and mid level characters I hope to see a return of the old EQ gearing system. Am I the only one who loved the old EQ twink/gearing mechanics?
Comments
I think most of us share your opinion of twinking.
For me its about that freedom to do what you want, including suiting up a friend or another character if you so choose. One of the biggest killers of EQ for me later was their decision to start implementing gear restrictions and other artificial barriers that took away from that sense of freedom we came to expect in a virtual world.
It seems like that underlying concept is still popular with the Pantheon team and that they want to avoid restrictions if possible. Just to put it a little more in perspective though, you may find it harder to part with items in Pantheon than you did in EQ or other games. There will be no "best item" because they are focusing on a lot of situational gear sets that protect against certain environments, effects or that enhance particular builds.
That said, they do intend for there to be some level of item scaling, so while twink gear is definitely better than the best lower level gear, it will not benefit you as much as it will a higher level, with higher offensive and defensive skills (not unlike it was in EQ).
Later in the game, Luclin era-ish, they started making gear with recommended level, but it was equippable with scaled down stats at lower levels. I remember having a windblade (recommended level 56) that was a pretty decent pre 60 weapon, but even with its scaled back stats it was a decent weapon at lower levels. I will say that it was no a great low level twink item, but something like that could be workable. I would prefer that high end items that scaled at least scaled at the top of the curve for items of the players current level.
I also like the idea of having a handful of items that break the mold a little and are the top end items for lower level characters. They would be highly sought after and probably camped quite a bit. I always loved the Fungi Tunic in EQ (the prenerf one).
I don't personally remember AC being that powerful, but I understand your concern. I just don't remember a scenario where it mitigated damage down to 1, especially against mobs around my level. I do remember it drastically decreasing damage against lower level mobs because it worked in conjunction with other stats and skills.
How exactly did twinking ruin their experience as early as Kunark? Were they upset because they weren't twinked or because they were and it trivialized some aspect of the game? As someone who had a max level character way in front of the curve, it took me a massive amount of time to get fully geared on just my first character, and virtually no one achieved "full best in slot" before the next expansion was released. Sure a good set of gear may trivialize the experience to some degree, but there was so many rares for every class and every slot that were hard to obtain.
To me, the only real way to prevent an overabundance of items or twink gear from circulating is to first and foremost, make sure good items are harder to obtain. In a game like Pantheon (as it was in EQ) things like time, competition (contested content), rarity and of course, skill (both performance and social/cooperative) were imperative if an item or achievement was to have any weight or sense of accomplishment. Games have adopted the loot pinata philosophy which, like most of their design decisions, is not conducive to longevity or a healthy economy.
VRI seems to have a few tricks up their sleeve for creating item sinks including gear sets that I mentioned earlier. They have actually talked briefly about a system of sacrificing items on an alter to receive long term buffs.
I don't personally understand why we ever got gear restrictions in the first place.
If a level 1 toon can get ahold of level 50 gear, there is a reason for it. He either has a level 50 already and enjoys playing the game again with some "super powers", or he has a highlevel friend that helps him out to play together sooner, possible even powerleveling said player.
I don't see anything wrong with either. It is a personal choice to do it or not. If SOME people enjoy that, WHY is there a need to take away this freedom from them? Others may not enjoy it.... and they can just not do it.
My latest sentence is actually an "issue" i have been seeing more often on the last years. Just because some people dislike OPTION xy,... devs are supposed to remove that OPTION. Just not using that OPTION does not seem to be an... option (pun!). "If i don't like it, noone should be able to!". I understand that sentiment for options that reduce other players fun, or hinders them in some way, but what bad can a twinked or powerleveled toon do to OTHERS?
Worst thing that can happen is that said toon clears a spawn alone for x time, before he moves on quickly. Same would happen if a common group camps said spawn. That group would be there far longer tho. So not a big deal at all.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I agree with the sentiment, players should be able to twink, but eventually it leads to a problem if left completely unchecked. Supply continues to go up while demand disappears, the economy stagnates and players are gifted items they never earned which in turn trivializes content and progression (while getting new items, faster, perpetuating the problem). If there isn't some way of preventing these items from floating around indefinitely, it basically ruins the experience.
I actually came up with a system of Item Degradation tied to repairing items that would solve some problems. Items begin at pristine quality and decay through use and the act of repairing until they eventually reach a poor quality. When the item is traded, the new owner gets it in a state of decay which may or may not involve stat reduction. Either way, at some point the item would reach its lowest grade but always remain useable by the last player to have equipped it. However, it would be unequippable by anyone other than the owner, though it could still technically be sold to a player to sacrifice for buffs or break it down. Sort of like a delayed bind on equip (but again, not actually bound).
The idea is to adjust decay so items have a long life and multiple owners, without becoming a perpetual hand-me-down. Players could also obtain lower quality items at a discount, but knowing that it would have a lower resale value. This would mostly address mudflation caused by eternal items.
Actually that is no drawback. At least not if there is enough content and progression is slow enough. expansions help too.
If items become more readily available AND are given away to strangers for free,... we have a problem with the difficulty of obtaining those items. Not an issue with twinking. If items become more readily available due to an expansion that pushes new levels,.. what bad do those twink items do? They help new players and new toons to catch up the the community.
Think defiant gear. Why was it made in EQ? Simply to help people catch up. But it absolutly NEGATED the fun in killing low level bosses, since all they dropped was outscaled by random defiant drops. With the system EQ had in place BEFORE restrictions there would have been no need for defiant gear. And let's be honest: It would be easy to avoid twinking,.. but if defiant drops for you on every 10th kill, would you destroy it to not get too powerful? ;-)
I actually think this would negate future problems from the get go, IF DONE RIGHT and not half baked. Certain features NEED other features to be present to actually work. Certain features only work if certain other restrictions are NOT present. This is true for quite a lot of issues, not only twinking. Talking about a single feature rarly if ever works without taking other game aspects into account.
So in my eyes: Not having gear restrictions at all is a good thing IF:
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
You are right, twinking is not the problem. The problem is how easy it is to acquire items and twink, and how common items become which leads to a supply greater than the demand. On that point we are in agreement. I think the problem (which was also discussed on Pantheon forums) is that they are worried about a way of maintaining item rarity without progression being as "hardcore" as it was in EQ. Lets be honest, in the first few expansion they only offered a handful of items to fill each slot for each class, and the best of those items were highly contested. Its probably unlikely that we will have to struggle that hard to suit up in Pantheon, at least for an average set of items. Its probably why they are going with the idea of having to obtain multiple sets of armor.
Beyond that what you suggested is really not appropriate for a game that wishes to keep older content relevant. Pantheon is not a themepark, and cannot be compared to one (including modern EQ). A game cannot have both "the journey" and a "rush to end game" style of progression. Like early EQ, Pantheon seems to want to keep older content relevant for as long as possible, if not indefinitely. Without doing something to prevent mudflation like offering vendors that pay well for items, sacrificing items for buffs, or having a system of item degradation, you will inevitably end up with a surplus = free loot = trivialized progression.
Don't get me wrong, VR plans for twinking to be a thing, but finding a balance is going to be a challenge.
I apologize for the novel in advance,
EQ Twinking (not an all inclusive list, just for the sake of discussion):
1. Twinking at EQlaunch: Rubicite + Dragon/Planar weapons and haste item - level cap 50
2. Kunark: Fungi + Dragon/Boss weapons/class gear with better ratios/stats - level cap 60
3. Velious: Dragon / Planar Gear with better ratios/stats - level cap 60
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Why twinking in EQ created overpowered characters:
EQlaunch twinking didn't create a huge advantage due to weapon ratios and negligible regen bonus. You could definitely tell my rogue and/or ranger was twinked with rubicite, a cloak of flames and a crystalline spear, but it wasn't overpowering.
Kunark: Fungi regen + weapon ratios began to create a huge advantage. Fungi + any decent weapon and haste item for a melee created an overpowered twink.
Velious: Increased the advantage even more as the level cap wasn't changed but weapon ratios/items continued to improve. Fungi + Velious weapons/armor (typically with more +hps/ac) created even more overpowered twinks.
So, the item that overpowered twinks was a fungi tunic as it made downtime negligible to groups, with the weapons being a close second. But, another reason why players were more overpowered in EQ was that the content from EQlaunch in Velious was still relevant and expable (all the way to max level), yet, the mobs were significantly weaker. So, it made sense if you were wanting to power level to use Velious/Kunark gear in Unrest (EQlaunch) for example.
Twinking casters did occur as well, but it did not have near the advantage as a melee twink.
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Potential Solution:
I prefer twinking; however, if there was a compromise made, I would want testing groups prior to Pantheon's launch and expansion releases to make the determination on game-breaking gear (i.e. Fungi tunic) versus good twink gear before everything was made no drop/no trade/bind on equip, etc. and only have the Fungi Tunic type items having restrictions placed on them.
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Potential Solution:
The last thought I had, which is another artificial restriction but one that I feel would be more realistic, would be instead of having item decay/bind on equip/no drop, etc., you have item progression/mastery.
Example.. take a level 1 character who is equipping a Dragoon Dirk and a Fungi tunic. Basically viewing it as the person has limited knowledge/combat experience.
So, if it is a Dragoon Dirk maybe it has 3 level to master it at an exp curve similar to the level of the mob that dropped it - 20ish, but if it's a fungi tunic, maybe it has 10 levels with the exp requirement being at the 55-60th level requirement (basically the exp/leveling requirement needed would be in accordance with the mob/dungeon level where the item was obtained).
So, if you're killing rats with it, you wouldn't get any level increase for the fungi tunic potentially until 20+ as the exp you would be receiving would be not nearly enough to level an item obtained from a 55-60 mob, but the Dragoon Dirk would have received max stats by 20th. And, once an item is mastered, potentially there's some indicator on your character profile so if you did pass or purchase another item you wouldn't need to relevel it, etc.
And, to not make this idea annoying for players who are at the appropriate level who obtain the drops, perhaps the server has some sort of check to see when you pick up an item if your level is 55 or greater than the Fungi tunic will have max stats at pickup, or 18 or greater for the Dragoon Dirk, etc.
With this method, you could still twink, it wouldn't be gamebreaking, and it might add another horizontal progression element on top of it (no idea if this method has already been used before though).
The recommended levels EQ put on gear later in the game were effective at controlling twinks while still allowing character to pass gear along. It was something that would grow with you as you leveled.
I am also a fan of durability on items. In particular, I like the way durability was implemented in DDO. An items durability slowly degraded over time, unless the character bound the item (and any item could be bound). Once an item was bound durability would no longer degrade, though any existing lose to durability remained.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
I think Brad has said somewhere that you will be able to twink yourself. It was really fun to do that in EQ.
Recommended levels were fine, but most items were recommended level 55 required level 50, etc., so it wasn't really twink gear at that point. If it was recommended level 15, 30, 45, 60 etc. equippable at level 1, then it would have been a better system.
I thoroughly enjoyed twinking my alts in EQ. I never once felt like it changed the balance of the game as I didn't have millions of PLAT at any given time to do it to an excess, but when I rolled a new toon i wanted the hardest hitting spells per hour, and that meant that I bought the highest INT (or whatever your stat was) gear ---- at whatever i could afford ---. Keep in mind this opinion was mostly before Luclin days which only served to enhance the experience with MGB for donations, SoW for donations, and KEI (which i made a bit on). Alwyas had a good feeling playing a Chanty. =D
That's the key to this, as no piece of gear i bought ever got sold or vendored. I always had it in my head that if i didn't need it i would bazaar it back to someone that did. Always felt good putting up a well used item for a small return on the initial plat invested. God i miss this game sometimes.
That said Brad really lost me hands down with the failure that was Vanguard. So i reserve any judgement here... and pray that someday soon a game with AAA creativity and effort is "actually' produced with the right intentions (no item mall / P2W mentaility) and mechanics.
Might as well forgive and forget, because what you are suggesting will most likely never happen. It will take a small passionate group like Visionary Realms to get a game like that running and profitable before you'll ever see that kind of risk taken by larger companies. Get on board buddy, those mistakes were almost a decade ago and we're only hurting the genre more by taking a stance against games like Pantheon. Liking an idea doesn't mean liking a person if it makes you feel any better.
I understand, and I agree and apologise if I came across negatively. Forgive maybe but never forget, as I am sad to say though that unless someone does take a drastic stand against making these wow-clones, and or F2P Facebook MMO's that are infesting the worlds gaming markets due to their VERY lucrative ROI... I fear that it will be inevitable to see the genre fully saturated and the minority of gamers that enjoy a challenge will be either forced to concede expectations in their gaming, or leave gaming entirely for some sun?! *Gasp*. =D
I don't doubt Brad learned from his mistakes though and he will always be the man behind the best mmo experience I can remember (EQ) and i will support him in this endeavor. I have my hopes riding on Star Citizen right now, but its nice to have an alternative in case that massive undertaking doesn't actually hit shelves...
This is another question I asked Montresseur on Twitch and he confirmed there will be the ability to twink.
This is perfect and i think what they did in EQ1's early days no? Same with WoW's Heirloom gear this makes perfect sense.
I would have to disagree with this. When thinking back on EQ1 it was fun to play and exciting finding new things, new places, adventures etc., but to have the ability to give an alt gear that would assist in faster leveling was a bonus because I'd already seen most of that content anyway. I'm not saying the advantage needs to be as big as it was in EQ, but an advantage none the less.
I don't see a reason to scale the equipment down at all, and saying it makes perfect sense is even more strange.
"So this Dragon Plate of Awesomeness has 9001 armor rating, unless you are below level 50, then it is about the same as that rusty level 20 bronze armor".
You can get that dragon armor? You should be free to use it however you please. Make it hard to get, make it valuable. Make sure my jaw drops if i see one on a level 5 because i know how much that guy must have paid for it, or how awesome he must be at farming with his friends / guild.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
If twinking is trying to be managed, I get the point, but I would still prefer becoming more proficient with an item (leveling it) as a twink versus having a hard coded recommended level % as I don't think it would ultimately control twinking effectively much later in the game's life. A few examples below:
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Example: Short Sword of Ykesha: 8/24 with a 75 damage proc (which would have had a 40ish item level), more than likely it wouldn't even be usable until max level as the delay would still be good, but the damage would be awful. For the sake of easy math, if the weapon was considered level 50 (max player level 50 - 2% per level), it wouldn't be 3/24 damage until the twink reached level 20, 6/24 damage at level 40, and 8/24 damage at 50.
Now, in comparison, obtain a non-twink item like a Minotaur Battle Axe 8/37 - obtainable around level 10 (non-magic) and the polished granite tomahawk that was 6/26 (magic) that many players obtained around 18-25.
Yes I know, this was an example from EQlaunch.
Velious Example: Fist of nature 15/18. However, you would also have a different ratio at that point as the item levels would be more like level 60ish (max player level 60), or 1.67% per level. Level 20 - 5/18, Level 40, 10/18, and level 60 - 15/18. Definitely better for sure, but even here, it wouldn't be much better than the gear obtainable at those levels.
Recent EQ Example: Rain of Fear (I think 1 or two EQ expansions ago now?) where the best weapons are like 114/19. Item level 100 (max player level 100). So, it would be 1% per level. At level 20, 23/19. At 40, 46/19, etc. So, even with the Recommended levels at this point, the weapons would still be ridiculously overpowered.
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So, with your solution, twinking could effectively be managed probably till around Luclin, but itemization ultimately would outpace the percentages.
It doesn't, unless you look at it as a warrior who is level 1 is less proficient than a warrior who is level 50. Recommended levels are completely artificial, but it would be understandable to assume that a level 1 warrior with no training could use gear less proficiently than a level 50, and not obtain all the same benefits.
This assumes that a characters stats have nothing to do with their damage/defense. If a weapon is magically imbued to be better then it wouldn't matter who used it. If one sword uses better steel and is sharper than another, it doesn't matter who uses it, it will still cause more damage.
The chance of hitting your opponent should be based on the player, not the weapon. The strength of a character should also be a determining factor in how hard they hit.