Why do Sandboxes create small worlds?

Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember RarePosts: 2,617

It seems counter to what a sandbox should be about.  

 

If you're going to have player driven content shouldn't exploration, discovery and surveying be part of it?  

 

 

If you're going to have player housing shouldn't you have plenty of space for it?  Nobody wants a small world that's filled ass to elbows with houses.

 

If you're going to FFA PvP shouldn't you have a large world to prevent guilds from dominating the whole things?  Even a large guild would have a hard time controlling a world that takes hours to tranverse.

 

Urban sprawl is ugly.  Even uglier without urban planning like all current Sandboxes lack.  A world dominated and patrolled by a mega guild.  It's not fun to explore a sandbox filled with with sprawl and pk's everywhere.  It just seems to lend well to have larger worlds.

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Comments

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,903

    Eve space is:

    741,198,000,000,000,000 km X-Axis
    142,796,685,000,000,000 km Y-Axis
    904,787,156,000,000,000 km Z-Axis

    not counting wormhole-space.

     

    That adds up to 9.5*10^49 Km^3

    image

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXMember RarePosts: 2,082
    And if they had to fill Eve with rocks, grass, and trees, it would choke the game at a fraction of the size.  It is easy to have lots of blank space.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,903
    Originally posted by Arglebargle
    And if they had to fill Eve with rocks, grass, and trees, it would choke the game at a fraction of the size.  It is easy to have lots of blank space.

    space is mostly blank

    image

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,298

    I honestly don't know what your talking about.

    The sandboxes I've played all have pretty big worlds that do take a long long time to traverse.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember RarePosts: 2,617
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Eve space is:

    741,198,000,000,000,000 km X-Axis
    142,796,685,000,000,000 km Y-Axis
    904,787,156,000,000,000 km Z-Axis

    not counting wormhole-space.
      That adds up to 9.5*10^49 Km^3

     

    I am not really talkin about a space sim.  

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghMember UncommonPosts: 5,001
    between sandboxes and themeparks, sandboxes use more of their virtual world.  As for urban sprawl, no-one want to wander through 1 million houses, which means you would have fast travel so you don't have to walk for 4 hours through a housing estate, in which case it makes sense to be instanced, which is exactly what we have.  Also don't get where OP is comming from.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember UncommonPosts: 1,693
    Sandboxes that are too big for their population feel desolate and dead, something I've encountered in at least 3 games so far.  What sandboxes actually should be is auto-expanding, starting small and getting bigger only as needed.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXMember UncommonPosts: 246

    Good question.  I suspect like all mmo's players want to see other players (not necessarily interact with them), so size becomes an issue.

    Maybe if more people are into sandboxes, the game will be made bigger?

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCMember UncommonPosts: 1,592
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Arglebargle
    And if they had to fill Eve with rocks, grass, and trees, it would choke the game at a fraction of the size.  It is easy to have lots of blank space.

    space is mostly blank

    Eve space is thousands of system filled with stations, asteriod belts, moons, planets that be harvested for specific resources, and any number of anomalies, worm holes, etc. It is not empty by any stretch of the imagination.

    <3

  • SulaaSulaa nMember UncommonPosts: 1,329
    What are titles of this small Sandbox MMORPGs you are talking about?
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I honestly don't know what your talking about. The sandboxes I've played all have pretty big worlds that do take a long long time to traverse.

    Same. OP, could you list the sandbox games you're referring to?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DaikuruDaikuru StuttgartMember RarePosts: 734
    Because a Sandbox is not a Desert? ^^
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    - Albert Einstein


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member EpicPosts: 18,151

    Ever actually seen a sandbox?  Most of them aren't very big.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=sandbox

  • apb2011apb2011 Quebec city, QCMember UncommonPosts: 165

    Example: Skyrim = Huge World

    Skyrim = sandbox

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Example: Skyrim = Huge World Skyrim = sandbox 

    Skyrim isn't a sandbox.  The overwhelming majority of content is static and unchanging.  It's developer-created themepark rides for you to ride on.  Writing addons is sandbox content.  Stacking cheese wheels is sandbox.  A handful of quests which make very minor changes to the game world are....well, they're sandbox enough.  But the majority of the game is themepark content.

    Remember that while most sandboxes are open world, not all open world games are sandboxes.  Sandbox means player authorship (you know, sand that you can change.)

    But back on topic, what sandbox or MMORPG even has a smaller world than Skyrim?  Skyrim's world isn't all that big, and I can't think of a single MMORPG (sandbox or not) which has a smaller world.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALMember UncommonPosts: 1,365
    Originally posted by Sulaa
    What are titles of this small Sandbox MMORPGs you are talking about?

     

    Probably the short list of low budget sandbox games that exist.

    My guess would be something to do with the fact that they are very low budget and not made very well to begin with.

     

    Some games like EVE as pointed out and SWG did have very large worlds though.

     

    Some people would say a game like Mortal Online has a lage world but not really when compared with SWG.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,298

    About 2 dozen sandboxes here.  Most seem to have pretty big worlds.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349518

     

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSMember UncommonPosts: 1,437
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Example: Skyrim = Huge World Skyrim = sandbox  

     

    I used to think like that until i remember what open world mean. And If you count creator kits (PC) as part of gameplay then skyrim is 50% sandbox

     

    About sandbox (building , housing ) when in open world , they have to be destroyable. And they are resource to fight for.

    Archeage do it wrong . I use AA as example because it's newest game with sandbox feature.

     

    Unless the game about pure building sand castle , the world need to be big enough but don't need to be too big. It don't need to grow bigger for each player joining the game.

    Unless the game is pure sandbox ...

     

     

  • apb2011apb2011 Quebec city, QCMember UncommonPosts: 165
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Example: Skyrim = Huge World Skyrim = sandbox 

    Skyrim isn't a sandbox.  The overwhelming majority of content is static and unchanging.  It's developer-created themepark rides for you to ride on.  Writing addons is sandbox content.  Stacking cheese wheels is sandbox.  A handful of quests which make very minor changes to the game world are....well, they're sandbox enough.  But the majority of the game is themepark content.

    Remember that while most sandboxes are open world, not all open world games are sandboxes.  Sandbox means player authorship (you know, sand that you can change.)

    But back on topic, what sandbox or MMORPG even has a smaller world than Skyrim?  Skyrim's world isn't all that big, and I can't think of a single MMORPG (sandbox or not) which has a smaller world.

    All the Elder Scroll games are sandbox, except of Elder Scrolls Online which is 100% themepark.

    I started playing MMOs when Ultima Online was out, which is also 100% sandbox and one of the pioneers in MMOs and sandbox games. I am molded into playing sandbox games, and I know exactly what a sandbox game is. Skyrim IS sandbox. After you do the escape from dungeon part in the beginning of Skyrim, you are free to do whatever you want ingame. You do not have any particular direction to follow. And almost any action you do in Skyrim progresses your character. Alot of people define the main features of sandbox is open world and being able to modify the world, which I think is wrong. The two main features that define sandbox in my opinion is: 1) No particular direction to follow. 2) Skill based (more like any action you do can progress you character).

    Being able to modify the world doesn't mean sandbox.

    You should play Ultima Online if you want to get a true sandbox experience. There was really nothing in UO that let you modify the world except for placing houses or items. Yet Ultima Online is a true sandbox 100%.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDMember EpicPosts: 21,106
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Example: Skyrim = Huge World Skyrim = sandbox 

    Skyrim isn't a sandbox.  The overwhelming majority of content is static and unchanging.  It's developer-created themepark rides for you to ride on.  Writing addons is sandbox content.  Stacking cheese wheels is sandbox.  A handful of quests which make very minor changes to the game world are....well, they're sandbox enough.  But the majority of the game is themepark content.

    Remember that while most sandboxes are open world, not all open world games are sandboxes.  Sandbox means player authorship (you know, sand that you can change.)

    But back on topic, what sandbox or MMORPG even has a smaller world than Skyrim?  Skyrim's world isn't all that big, and I can't think of a single MMORPG (sandbox or not) which has a smaller world.

    All the Elder Scroll games are sandbox, except of Elder Scrolls Online which is 100% themepark.

    Not really... Axe was pretty much spot on. There's little in TES games that resemble true sandbox games, SWG being an example of such.

    Sandbox implies some form of manipulation in the hands of the player, Sandbox does not mean doing what you want, that would be non-linear/open-world design..

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Example: Skyrim = Huge World Skyrim = sandbox 

    Skyrim isn't a sandbox.  The overwhelming majority of content is static and unchanging.  It's developer-created themepark rides for you to ride on.  Writing addons is sandbox content.  Stacking cheese wheels is sandbox.  A handful of quests which make very minor changes to the game world are....well, they're sandbox enough.  But the majority of the game is themepark content.

    Remember that while most sandboxes are open world, not all open world games are sandboxes.  Sandbox means player authorship (you know, sand that you can change.)

    But back on topic, what sandbox or MMORPG even has a smaller world than Skyrim?  Skyrim's world isn't all that big, and I can't think of a single MMORPG (sandbox or not) which has a smaller world.

    All the Elder Scroll games are sandbox, except of Elder Scrolls Online which is 100% themepark.

    Not really... Axe was pretty much spot on. There's little in TES games that resemble true sandbox games, SWG being an example of such.

    Sandbox implies some form of manipulation in the hands of the player, Sandbox does not mean doing what you want, that would be non-linear/open-world design..

     

    Ugh... Is this thread going to derail into yet another debate over what is or isn't a sandbox?

    Please say it isn't...

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAMember RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Pratt2112
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by apb2011
    Example: Skyrim = Huge World Skyrim = sandbox 

    Skyrim isn't a sandbox.  The overwhelming majority of content is static and unchanging.  It's developer-created themepark rides for you to ride on.  Writing addons is sandbox content.  Stacking cheese wheels is sandbox.  A handful of quests which make very minor changes to the game world are....well, they're sandbox enough.  But the majority of the game is themepark content.

    Remember that while most sandboxes are open world, not all open world games are sandboxes.  Sandbox means player authorship (you know, sand that you can change.)

    But back on topic, what sandbox or MMORPG even has a smaller world than Skyrim?  Skyrim's world isn't all that big, and I can't think of a single MMORPG (sandbox or not) which has a smaller world.

    All the Elder Scroll games are sandbox, except of Elder Scrolls Online which is 100% themepark.

    Not really... Axe was pretty much spot on. There's little in TES games that resemble true sandbox games, SWG being an example of such.

    Sandbox implies some form of manipulation in the hands of the player, Sandbox does not mean doing what you want, that would be non-linear/open-world design..

     

    Ugh... Is this thread going to derail into yet another debate over what is or isn't a sandbox?

    Please say it isn't...

     

    I think we're already there. There's one in every crowd.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,108
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Arglebargle
    And if they had to fill Eve with rocks, grass, and trees, it would choke the game at a fraction of the size.  It is easy to have lots of blank space.

    space is mostly blank

    And Eve has lots of that mostly blank stuff.SPace worlds are the simplest to design,takes so little effort and time.Filling that space in with worlds that you can have interaction on is when a game shines.Also we need to see ship modules come a part,see the actual fitting taking place,you know some visuals to give the game some character.

    Small worlds and why?I guess to save time trying to make it all viable without crippling hi end machines.I have watched some really good videos by Epeic games proving you can have large areas with lots of players and animation you just need to put in the effort and utilize some modern software.Basically taking high poly physics models and dumbing down the total vertices without losing the  looks.

    I felt FFXIV graphics were gorgeous and my low end machine that shouldn't even run the game ran  rather well ,so they did a good job optimizing from the original launch days.Most games have no business crippling machines ,i have not seen many games with such graphics that should cause any problems at  all,yet machines still struggle badly.so there is a lot of sloppy efforts going on inside these development studios.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by apb2011 All the Elder Scroll games are sandbox, except of Elder Scrolls Online which is 100% themepark. I started playing MMOs when Ultima Online was out, which is also 100% sandbox and one of the pioneers in MMOs and sandbox games. I am molded into playing sandbox games, and I know exactly what a sandbox game is. Skyrim IS sandbox. After you do the escape from dungeon part in the beginning of Skyrim, you are free to do whatever you want ingame. You do not have any particular direction to follow. And almost any action you do in Skyrim progresses your character. Alot of people define the main features of sandbox is open world and being able to modify the world, which I think is wrong. The two main features that define sandbox in my opinion is: 1) No particular direction to follow. 2) Skill based (more like any action you do can progress you character). Being able to modify the world doesn't mean sandbox. You should play Ultima Online if you want to get a true sandbox experience. There was really nothing in UO that let you modify the world except for placing houses or items. Yet Ultima Online is a true sandbox 100%.

    Why do you think they're called sandboxes?  They're about the sand.  Sand doesn't imply non-linearity or skill-based.  Sand implies player control.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • SulaaSulaa nMember UncommonPosts: 1,329

    Well sandbox is both not clearly defined and very overused term nowadays. 

     

    Good example are i.e.  Assasin Creed games which are often casually called sandboxes and there is basically nothing sandboxy about them.

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