Crowfall the savior for PvP players?

CallsignVega

In a world full of horrid theme-park, dumbed-down, zero consequence and no skill required candy land MMORPG's,

 

What I would give for an actual PvP game that is challenging, has consequences, rewards skill and fun to play PvP game. 

 

Will Crowfall be the one?

 

What do you think of Crowfall and what would you like to see included?

 

For me it would be:

Death penalty

Item loot

No fast/trivial travel

No in game-maps, actual exploration required

No exclamation points on NPC's

No silly voice acting

No CGI cut scenes

High skill level thresh-hold that separates the skilled from the non skilled

PvP stats and tracking

One large global server

No instances

No safe zones

Monthly subscription fee - Everyone knows a "real" MMORPG has this

 

I know all of the above is a tall order, but one can dream right? 

wabben77

Considering this is heavily influenced by shadowbane, most of what you are asking for will probably be the case. There were some safe zones in Shadowbane but they were pretty small, and from the sound of it this will likely be the same.  I'm not totally sold on the no subscription thing simply because a game like this requires a large player base. I would rather see something along the lines of guild wars 2 instead of a game that has to be shut down or f2p after a few years.

Dullahan

Way too early to tell.  My guess is it will be another shallow PvP MMO that will get boring after 1-2 months because after PvP, theres nothing compelling about the game or world.  SB was a step above the last decade of failed pvp games, but not far enough above for crowfall to have any greater success.  These guys need to come correct with something more than just the same old fantasy arena pvp with land ownership.  All this fealty, pledging and fancy charts showing who rules one place or another doesn't impress me in the least.

General-Zod

Originally posted by Dullahan
Way too early to tell.  My guess is it will be another shallow PvP MMO that will get boring after 1-2 months because after PvP, theres nothing compelling about the game or world.  SB was a step above the last decade of failed pvp games, but not far enough above for crowfall to have any greater success.  These guys need to come correct with something more than just the same old fantasy arena pvp with land ownership.  All this fealty, pledging and fancy charts showing who rules one place or another doesn't impress me in the least.

This.

Mange1

All aboard the hype train!  Please leave your realistic expectations at home or in a safe place as you may not bring them onto the train.

vadio123

Probably i going check out in release day 

Enough alpha/betas/hype and this sick industry 

Lheiah

Think it will be good for a subset of pvp players. Those that think it really cool to see how fast you can run everyone else off the server and see how fast one can kill their own game. Hopefully for that niche, it will be enough to maintain the game. That way they can stay in their own nice little corner of the internet built just for them. Kinda like why prisons are built. A win/win scenario.

 

Shadowbane community is there...in force.

 

Definitely no money for this game until I see how it's plays out. You know....real consequences.

Velocinox

And the locust swarm smells another field of crops.

wabben77

I'm probably reading between the lines too much when they say, "a game you can win". I'm hoping it's like a board game where there is a win condition, then you start over. That would maybe stop some of the problems that plagued shadowbane where one nation would get out of control and dominate the server and destroy all pvp, and cause guilds to quit etc etc. It would give people an opportunity to start fresh and come up with a new game plan to try and win the game, maybe make alliances before the next world comes online etc etc.  I'm sure many people would hate this but I'm not one of them lol. 

 

Shadowbane with updated graphics, a new engine, and modern improvements with a win condition is pretty much my ideal game. Your mileage may vary.

 

 

EDIT: The ease to getting to level cap in Shadowbane means no huge grinds and no big loss when the world starts over IMO. If they keep the few days of playing to hit cap formula like in SB I don't think it would be a huge deal to start over.  

Dullahan

Every suggestion you made is the kind of feature I want in a PvP game.  The problem is, even if the combat is great, those things alone still won't be enough to make an MMO people will want to play long term.  There are games that exist right now you can play that have almost every feature you're proposing, and they still suck.

An PvP MMO NEEDS to be more than a fantasy backdrop, land ownership and sieging.

They need to build a game from the ground up instead of starting from PvP and building around it.  PvP is not a foundation for creating a "virtual world" (their words), its the foundation for a first person shooter.  They have to work towards something that actually draws players in and suspends their disbelief.  Something that transports the player to another world.  A game world that is harsh beyond player vs player combat, that always encourages players to interact with each other.  A world where you should think twice about whether another player is better as an ally than an enemy.  Then they need to create content in every direction so there is a reason to inhabit this world.  Reasons that compel different types of players to take part. 

People wonder why pvp communities are so toxic, and I believe the lack of player interdependence in these games is that reason.  If you don't need other players for any other reason than the bragging rights of owning the biggest castle, of course no one is going to interact on any sociable level.

The silly hardcore pvper (pssh) mentality is what ruins this subgenre.  The false assumption that PvP alone will make for a good PvP game is erroneous.  This is coming from someone thats played MMOs and MUDS since the 90s and has played almost every PvP title thats come out since.

A game thats not fun without PvP, won't miraculously become fun with it.

General-Zod

Originally posted by Velocinox
And the locust swarm smells another field of crops.

Actually the term Locust in MMO gaming refers to a large group playing MMO's  for 1-2 months until all the PvE content is gone then swarming over to the next MMO.

goboygo

Originally posted by Dullahan

Every suggestion you made is the kind of feature I want in a PvP game.  The problem is, even if the combat is great, those things alone still won't be enough to make an MMO people will want to play long term.  There are games that exist right now you can play that have almost every feature you're proposing, and they still suck.

An PvP MMO NEEDS to be more than a fantasy backdrop, land ownership and sieging.

They need to build a game from the ground up instead of starting from PvP and building around it.  PvP is not a foundation for creating a "virtual world" (their words), its the foundation for a first person shooter.  They have to work towards something that actually draws players in and suspends their disbelief.  Something that transports the player to another world.  A game world that is harsh beyond player vs player combat, that always encourages players to interact with each other.  A world where you should think twice about whether another player is better as an ally than an enemy.  Then they need to create content in every direction so there is a reason to inhabit this world.  Reasons that compel different types of players to take part. 

People wonder why pvp communities are so toxic, and I believe the lack of player interdependence in these games is that reason.  If you don't need other players for any other reason than the bragging rights of owning the biggest castle, of course no one is going to interact on any sociable level.

The silly hardcore pvper (pssh) mentality is what ruins this subgenre.  The false assumption that PvP alone will make for a good PvP game is erroneous.  This is coming from someone thats played MMOs and MUDS since the 90s and has played almost every PvP title thats come out since.

A game thats not fun without PvP, won't miraculously become fun with it.

Well said, but allot of people judge a game by its punch list as a starting point.  You are so absolutely correct in your assessment so few games have that magical take me away to another world feel, maybe 2 or 3 out of the now 100's of MMO's that have ever been made.    Most ALL MMO's made ALL of them, are just solo experiences that you play along side others, even in those large scale battles even in raiding these days.  Your just not immersed in a community of players.  Its like saying the lottery is a great multiplayer experience because millions of people are participating, when you really could care less about the outcome of anything but your own.

Velocinox

Originally posted by General-Zod

Originally posted by Velocinox
And the locust swarm smells another field of crops.

Actually the term Locust in MMO gaming refers to a large group playing MMO's  for 1-2 months until all the PvE content is gone then swarming over to the next MMO.

No

Unknown

I'm happy devs stated that this game will not be for everyone and stick with this concept till the end.

Said so, i hope this game will be a true sandbox like UO, full loot ffa open world, action combat with active blocking, B2P or P2P revenue model.

The mmo market really lacks a game with real consequences, with risk vs reward, DF and MO tried but failed because the former is managed by an incompetent company that ruin everything, the latter have an unexperienced team and the game still full of bugs and desync.

I'm really sick of these year of themepark wow clones and korean grindfest disguised as mmorpg, where you level in solo till the cap thanks to hub quest, and after you do dungeons with 5 people. These aren't mmorpg anymore just instanced brawlers to minimize the infrastructure cost and maximize the profit catering as much people as possibile.

So i welcome a new game made by pro developers that know how to properly code a game and give back to us players the massivity and rpg elements that we lost in all these empty years.
I really hope they deliver with their vision.

hfztt

It was hard to tell much about the game from the homepage.

Exept they obviously dont have the cash to pay for a proper Game of Thrones license...

Dullahan

Originally posted by kdchan

I'm happy devs stated that this game will not be for everyone and stick with this concept till the end.

Said so, i hope this game will be a true sandbox like UO, full loot ffa open world, action combat with active blocking, B2P or P2P revenue model.

The mmo market really lacks a game with real consequences, with risk vs reward, DF and MO tried but failed because the former is managed by an incompetent company that ruin everything, the latter have an unexperienced team and the game still full of bugs and desync.

I'm really sick of these year of themepark wow clones and korean grindfest disguised as mmorpg, where you level in solo till the cap thanks to hub quest, and after you do dungeons with 5 people. These aren't mmorpg anymore just instanced brawlers to minimize the infrastructure cost and maximize the profit catering as much people as possibile.

So i welcome a new game made by pro developers that know how to properly code a game and give back to us players the massivity and rpg elements that we lost in all these empty years.
I really hope they deliver with their vision.

You describe the game you want, then bash Darkfall which has all of it.  I know why both Darkfall and Mortal Online failed, but it wasn't either of the reasons you suggested even if they are also true.  They failed because they weren't fun games.  They lacked all forms of meaningful content.  There was no worthwhile goal or progression; nothing to achieve.  The pvp made them interesting for a few weeks, a month or two tops if you had friends to play with.  What you risked meant little, what you could likely gain meant nothing.

What do you expect is going to somehow make this same recipe for failure turn into a game worth playing?

I ask this in all honesty as someone who enjoys PvP and hopes to see all the features you suggest.

Kuviski

Originally posted by Dullahan

Every suggestion you made is the kind of feature I want in a PvP game.  The problem is, even if the combat is great, those things alone still won't be enough to make an MMO people will want to play long term.  There are games that exist right now you can play that have almost every feature you're proposing, and they still suck.

An PvP MMO NEEDS to be more than a fantasy backdrop, land ownership and sieging.

They need to build a game from the ground up instead of starting from PvP and building around it.  PvP is not a foundation for creating a "virtual world" (their words), its the foundation for a first person shooter.  They have to work towards something that actually draws players in and suspends their disbelief.  Something that transports the player to another world.  A game world that is harsh beyond player vs player combat, that always encourages players to interact with each other.  A world where you should think twice about whether another player is better as an ally than an enemy.  Then they need to create content in every direction so there is a reason to inhabit this world.  Reasons that compel different types of players to take part. 

People wonder why pvp communities are so toxic, and I believe the lack of player interdependence in these games is that reason.  If you don't need other players for any other reason than the bragging rights of owning the biggest castle, of course no one is going to interact on any sociable level.

The silly hardcore pvper (pssh) mentality is what ruins this subgenre.  The false assumption that PvP alone will make for a good PvP game is erroneous.  This is coming from someone thats played MMOs and MUDS since the 90s and has played almost every PvP title thats come out since.

A game thats not fun without PvP, won't miraculously become fun with it.

If I understand you correctly, I agree in that what makes Darkfall such a bad game (opinion, I know, but a largely accepted one) is not what features it has but what it lacks. But its not just the features and systems of Darkfall that made it fail, it was also the lack of quality of any kind. The interface, the content, the combat, everything is rather lackluster in it's final implementation. The concepts, while lacking, are good of course, but they need to be complimented by more features, including things like meaningful PVE, as I understand you think, too.

Now, to give my take on what makes an open world PVP game last for a long time, I feel its the economy. I would go ahead and take a look at EVE for a couple of lessons. How loot is handled, what you can do with money, how important equipment and other goods are, how are those items destroyed and taken out of the economy - all of these issues are, as far as I can see, of utmost importance in the context of a long-lasting PVP game.

Dullahan

Originally posted by Kuviski

Originally posted by Dullahan

Every suggestion you made is the kind of feature I want in a PvP game.  The problem is, even if the combat is great, those things alone still won't be enough to make an MMO people will want to play long term.  There are games that exist right now you can play that have almost every feature you're proposing, and they still suck.

An PvP MMO NEEDS to be more than a fantasy backdrop, land ownership and sieging.

They need to build a game from the ground up instead of starting from PvP and building around it.  PvP is not a foundation for creating a "virtual world" (their words), its the foundation for a first person shooter.  They have to work towards something that actually draws players in and suspends their disbelief.  Something that transports the player to another world.  A game world that is harsh beyond player vs player combat, that always encourages players to interact with each other.  A world where you should think twice about whether another player is better as an ally than an enemy.  Then they need to create content in every direction so there is a reason to inhabit this world.  Reasons that compel different types of players to take part. 

People wonder why pvp communities are so toxic, and I believe the lack of player interdependence in these games is that reason.  If you don't need other players for any other reason than the bragging rights of owning the biggest castle, of course no one is going to interact on any sociable level.

The silly hardcore pvper (pssh) mentality is what ruins this subgenre.  The false assumption that PvP alone will make for a good PvP game is erroneous.  This is coming from someone thats played MMOs and MUDS since the 90s and has played almost every PvP title thats come out since.

A game thats not fun without PvP, won't miraculously become fun with it.

If I understand you correctly, I agree in that what makes Darkfall such a bad game (opinion, I know, but a largely accepted one) is not what features it has but what it lacks. But its not just the features and systems of Darkfall that made it fail, it was also the lack of quality of any kind. The interface, the content, the combat, everything is rather lackluster in it's final implementation. The concepts, while lacking, are good of course, but they need to be complimented by more features, including things like meaningful PVE, as I understand you think, too.

Now, to give my take on what makes an open world PVP game last for a long time, I feel its the economy. I would go ahead and take a look at EVE for a couple of lessons. How loot is handled, what you can do with money, how important equipment and other goods are, how are those items destroyed and taken out of the economy - all of these issues are, as far as I can see, of utmost importance in the context of a long-lasting PVP game.

As hated as PVE is by the PvP crowd (and ignorantly so), its necessary in an MMO unless you happen to have 10s of thousands of concurrent players with hundreds of different agendas for those players and their clans to engage in (this isn't going to happen any time soon).  So yes, I agree, PvE is a huge part of making a believable, interesting virtual world as well as crafting progression that give players something to achieve and continually work towards (progression).  Scaled PvE is necessary for making the world progressively more dangerous in order to yield whatever reward players need acquire to become stronger and more powerful. 

The ignorant PvP crowd now scream heresy as they misinterpret what I'm saying to mean I think the world should become a loot driven economy vs crafting driven economy.  That is not the case though, you can do either.  They also interpret this to mean everyone must be grinding mobs for rare drops, while thats not the only way to use mobs in an MMO.  Powerful PvE factions can also be used to protect rare materials, rare crafting components, rare schematics and designs as well as items.  These factions don't necessarily have to be hostile, they could even be friendly.  To get something from them you could gain reputation with them (*the "hardcore" pvp nerd's eyes just crossed as he enters a state of blind rage and won't read be able to read the following statements).  For instance, perhaps they want you to do something for them.  Perhaps there are other factions that are enemies that they want you to raid, but get this, maybe the enemy faction can actually be player enemy clans.  Thats just the tip of the iceberg of how a good developers could use PvE and in so doing, make the game world more immersive and compelling.  Plus, pve content also provides players with something to fight over - content.  Instant pvp hotspots.

Concerning Eve, I agree but it is more than just economy.  Eve has depth.  It has a ton of progression, and its a masterpiece when it comes to player interdependence.  All the things that fantasy pvp mmos lack almost completely.

Beowulfsam

Originally posted by Lheiah

Think it will be good for a subset of pvp players. Those that think it really cool to see how fast you can run everyone else off the server and see how fast one can kill their own game. Hopefully for that niche, it will be enough to maintain the game. That way they can stay in their own nice little corner of the internet built just for them. Kinda like why prisons are built. A win/win scenario.

 

Shadowbane community is there...in force.

 

Definitely no money for this game until I see how it's plays out. You know....real consequences.

 Ha, good one.

 

Yeah, it would be nice if all the douches had their own game and stayed there. Alas, they get bored and go somewhere else. On the other hand, it's quality entertainment seeing douches arguing with other douches and blaming each other for douchebaggery. 

 

Mkay, I shoveled too many douches in the previous paragraph, gonna stop :P

Unknown

[quote]Originally posted by DullahanYou describe the game you want, then bash Darkfall which has all of it.  I know why both Darkfall and Mortal Online failed, but it wasn't either of the reasons you suggested even if they are also true.  They failed because they weren't fun games.  They lacked all forms of meaningful content.  There was no worthwhile goal or progression; nothing to achieve.  The pvp made them interesting for a few weeks, a month or two tops if you had friends to play with.  What you risked meant little, what you could likely gain meant nothing.

What do you expect is going to somehow make this same recipe for failure turn into a game worth playing?

I ask this in all honesty as someone who enjoys PvP and hopes to see all the features you suggest.[/b][/quote]

I don't bash the game but the developers, aka Aventurine, they had a gems but they fuck up evrything, they don't fixed bugs, don't updated content, don't banned hackers. Darkfall was a very good game, nothing compared to their new abortion called Unholy Wars.

About the rest, yes, they lacks content, Darkfall was a huge pvp arena in the end, no updates, no content, but combat and full loot along with sieges was a blast. Is a starting point to develop further sandbox contents.

What Crowfall need is true sandbox features, things to do apart pvp, different professions and playstiles. regional resources, regional conflicts, political warfare, and so on, atm i've faith in this development team since they are all veterans and developed Shadowbane years ago, i've faith because is not another indie company with untalended devs.

Jacobin

Still not enough information.

It seems to be leaning towards something like Shadowbane style open world pvp and player factions/cities with SWG crafting/economy.

We have no idea how much PVE there will be or how important vertical progression/gear will factor into pvp balance.

 

Personally I thought month 1 of Darkfall was pretty fun when everyone was on a relatively even playing field. It died when the 24/7 macro grinders became demi-gods and were 2 shotting newbies with fireballs.

In my view I think the biggest challenge open world pvp games face is allowing noobs / casuals to compete with hardcore vets, but have enough depth to keep the vets playing.

Rusque

Another savior?

My goodness, the struggle is real. Some people will jump on anything and promptly set their expectations to MAX on the slightest bit of marketing.

mayito7777

Get me corrected in this question, how many successful PVP only MMOs are out there?

Golelorn

Do you  mean all 50 of you? Can't be too many hardcore PvP players. If its like the other hardcore pvp games it'll quickly flop. The OPs list of his desires sounds like a 14 hour per day job. No thanks.

Rorhc

Originally posted by Beowulfsam

Originally posted by Lheiah

Think it will be good for a subset of pvp players. Those that think it really cool to see how fast you can run everyone else off the server and see how fast one can kill their own game. Hopefully for that niche, it will be enough to maintain the game. That way they can stay in their own nice little corner of the internet built just for them. Kinda like why prisons are built. A win/win scenario.

 

Shadowbane community is there...in force.

 

Definitely no money for this game until I see how it's plays out. You know....real consequences.

 Ha, good one.

 

Yeah, it would be nice if all the douches had their own game and stayed there. Alas, they get bored and go somewhere else. On the other hand, it's quality entertainment seeing douches arguing with other douches and blaming each other for douchebaggery. 

 

Mkay, I shoveled too many douches in the previous paragraph, gonna stop :P

That's a whole lot of douches. I don't think I have ever seen that word used so much in one post. Kudos to you , sir!

mayito7777

My friend just posted on their forum and was treated like garbage by some of the posters there that acted like douches towards someone asking for in formation, so he is passing in this game.

 

That is one of he reasons I ask my questions here where people are more level headed and tend to be more nice towards those asking questions.