Why didn't we see the Trinity+1 (Quadrinity?) again?

LonzoLonzo GoettingenMember UncommonPosts: 258

Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast.

The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter.

The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out.

It was fun!

 

I wonder why no other game took this path? Why?

I knew a lot of people who liked that.

 

 

What do you think?

image
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Comments

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph Member UncommonPosts: 1,253
    it is why I love TSW dungeons in night mare difficult

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 10,205

    I enjoyed that role as well and PVE'd as one in DAoC with long tern single target mezzes and roots and shorter term (but still long by today's standards) group CC.

     

    And it gave me enough time to dish out a bit of damage on top of my CC and party buffs.

     

    I don't know why they started to rebalance encounters around taking on whole groups making CC irrelevant in all fights but the odd special raid boss or dual bosses.

     

    But the disappearance of that role did coincide with shortening CC in modern MMOs to no more than 10 seconds or so, mostly for PVP purposes. People who didn't play those classes hated being turned into a spectator for long periods of time - and rightly so.

     

    The trend nowadays is to tune groups of mobs down enough and give everyone lots of AOE damage to deal with them.

     

     

    You say you never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
    He's not selling any alibis
    As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
    And say "Do you want to make a deal?"
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember UncommonPosts: 6,591
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    That never went away. The trinity includes that. Instead of a DPS doing the CC, the tank does the CC is the same thing. NOTHING about it changed.

    image

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCMember UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    As others have pointed out too though, CC responsibities in a lot of cases were folded into the trinity for many trinity games. WoW for instance, tanks and DPS take over CC responsibility for a lot of heroic/mythic raid encounters.

    Just because CCs are not essential in LFR and 5 man dungeons, doesn't mean they are not still hugely important to the game.

  • udonudon Durham, NCMember UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCMember UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

  • udonudon Durham, NCMember UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

    It's been awhile but I tend to remember controllers being more a subset of how you spec a core class than a dedicated role unto themselves.  The Chanter and Brad classes of EQ2 of old (not currently) where true support classes with no real options for being anything other than support classes.  They didn't have the option to fill a DPS role for instance if needed like they can today.  That's what is missing from more modern games is the dedicated level 1 to cap support role classes with no options to be anything else.  All the classes today in more modern games can pick and choose sometimes at will from at least 2 of the traditional roles tank, healer, dps, support.

    Now don't get me wrong the old system had it's pitfalls for sure.  Finding a competent person to fill each of those rolls and getting them to play when you wanted to play was always a challenge.  The new system does make it a lot easier to fill groups and be successful it's just easier overall to finish the content now as well.

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCMember UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

    It's been awhile but I tend to remember controllers being more a subset of how you spec a core class than a dedicated role unto themselves.  The Chanter and Brad classes of EQ2 of old (not currently) where true support classes with no real options for being anything other than support classes.  They didn't have the option to fill a DPS role for instance if needed like they can today.  That's what is missing from more modern games is the dedicated 1-cap support role classes with no options to be anything else.  All the classes today in more modern games can pick and choose sometimes at will from at least 2 of the traditional roles tank, healer, dos, support. 

    Controllers are a straight up core role. There were no DPS that can act as "controllers", and vise versa. All classes have 3 seperate specs/core roles, either Tank/DPS/Controller, or Healer/DPS/Controller. The fact that you think controllers are a subset of how you "spec a core role", and not a core role onto themselves, makes me think you have never played DCUO. I dont know about EQ2, but 100% DCUO, Rift, and AoC have strait up required "support" classes.

    http://dcuniverseonline.wikia.com/wiki/Controller

    "A Controller is one of the four roles available in DCUO. This role focuses on incapacitating enemies and group support including Power regeneration. Controllers have specific debuff abilities that can lower an opponent's defense, toughness, healing or damage output. This role requires high amounts of Vitalization and Dominance. The symbol that represents a controller is in the shape of a sound wave."

  • Well basically WoW purposely destroyed the enchanter role.

     

    In regards to CC WoW purposely split it between each character class so that is was no longer a role, but an aspect of a balanced group.  Rogues CC humanoids, Warlocks CC elementals, hunter cc animals etc.

     

    This was purposely designed as a reason to assure a certain spread of classes.

     

    Since everyeone has been chasing the WoW money dragon (just like chasing the Dragon game from South Park) they followed this lead, by and large.  You see various notable exception such as City of Heroes Controllers.

     

    There is not other real reason.  Many Vanilla WoW dungeons required quite a bit of CC, you just didn't have a particular person do it.

     

    I think it was a really dumb design decision on WoW's part.  There are huge differences in skill when it comes to the execution of CC.  In fact it is one of the most skill dependent things in various typical MMO gameplay mechanics.  Their decision basically doomed the CC in WoW to being almost always executed in a mediocre manner by making it impossible for the people who are good at it to specialize into it.

     

    One reason this was probably done, is that CC itself can interfere with an "actiony" feel to combat.  When 80% of a spawn is stunned and doing nothing that is a called a "turkey shoot".  CC is extremely hard to balance and over-CC can vastly affect how gameplay can feel.  It scares developers.  So they neutered it.

     

     

  • udonudon Durham, NCMember UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

    It's been awhile but I tend to remember controllers being more a subset of how you spec a core class than a dedicated role unto themselves.  The Chanter and Brad classes of EQ2 of old (not currently) where true support classes with no real options for being anything other than support classes.  They didn't have the option to fill a DPS role for instance if needed like they can today.  That's what is missing from more modern games is the dedicated 1-cap support role classes with no options to be anything else.  All the classes today in more modern games can pick and choose sometimes at will from at least 2 of the traditional roles tank, healer, dos, support. 

    Controllers are a straight up role. There were no DPS that can act as "controllers", and vise versa. All classes have 3 seperate specs, either Tank/DPS/Controller, or Healer/DPS/Controller. The fact that you think controllers are aa subset of how you "spec a core role", and not a core role themselves, makes me think you have never played DCUO. I dont know about EQ2, but 100% DCUO, Rift, and AoC have strait up required "support" classes.

    Maybe but the next run they can be straight up DPS specced if they want as well.  I'm just stating what I have observed which is support roles are not nearly as unique as they where in the past.  Maybe you disagree with that which is fine and I won't pretend to have played every game out there enough to say there are not exceptions but as someone who loves support roles and tends to play them a lot in new MMO's that come out I can say they don't feel the same as they did in those older games and the Healer/DPS/Controller choice is IMO a big part of that.

  • doodphacedoodphace Vancouver, BCMember UncommonPosts: 1,858
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

    It's been awhile but I tend to remember controllers being more a subset of how you spec a core class than a dedicated role unto themselves.  The Chanter and Brad classes of EQ2 of old (not currently) where true support classes with no real options for being anything other than support classes.  They didn't have the option to fill a DPS role for instance if needed like they can today.  That's what is missing from more modern games is the dedicated 1-cap support role classes with no options to be anything else.  All the classes today in more modern games can pick and choose sometimes at will from at least 2 of the traditional roles tank, healer, dos, support. 

    Controllers are a straight up role. There were no DPS that can act as "controllers", and vise versa. All classes have 3 seperate specs, either Tank/DPS/Controller, or Healer/DPS/Controller. The fact that you think controllers are aa subset of how you "spec a core role", and not a core role themselves, makes me think you have never played DCUO. I dont know about EQ2, but 100% DCUO, Rift, and AoC have strait up required "support" classes.

    Maybe but the next run they can be straight up DPS specced if they want as well.  I'm just stating what I have observed which is support roles are not nearly as unique as they where in the past.  Maybe you disagree with that which is fine and I won't pretend to have played every game out there enough to say there are not exceptions but as someone who loves support roles and tends to play them a lot in new MMO's that come out I can say they don't feel the same as they did in those older games and the Healer/DPS/Controller choice is IMO a big part of that.

    Finding that they "don't feel the same as in the old days" is a subjective option, something which I cannot debate, but don't try to downplay the fact that there are still (newer) games out there that have (and require) straight up support roles that fall outside of the usual tank/DPS/Healer.

    More context I added to my last post:

    "A Controller is one of the four roles available in DCUO. This role focuses on incapacitating enemies and group support including Power regeneration. Controllers have specific debuff abilities that can lower an opponent's defense, toughness, healing or damage output. This role requires high amounts of Vitalization and Dominance. The symbol that represents a controller is in the shape of a sound wave."

  • Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

    It's been awhile but I tend to remember controllers being more a subset of how you spec a core class than a dedicated role unto themselves.  The Chanter and Brad classes of EQ2 of old (not currently) where true support classes with no real options for being anything other than support classes.  They didn't have the option to fill a DPS role for instance if needed like they can today.  That's what is missing from more modern games is the dedicated 1-cap support role classes with no options to be anything else.  All the classes today in more modern games can pick and choose sometimes at will from at least 2 of the traditional roles tank, healer, dos, support. 

    Controllers are a straight up role. There were no DPS that can act as "controllers", and vise versa. All classes have 3 seperate specs, either Tank/DPS/Controller, or Healer/DPS/Controller. The fact that you think controllers are aa subset of how you "spec a core role", and not a core role themselves, makes me think you have never played DCUO. I dont know about EQ2, but 100% DCUO, Rift, and AoC have strait up required "support" classes.

    Maybe but the next run they can be straight up DPS specced if they want as well.  I'm just stating what I have observed which is support roles are not nearly as unique as they where in the past.  Maybe you disagree with that which is fine and I won't pretend to have played every game out there enough to say there are not exceptions but as someone who loves support roles and tends to play them a lot in new MMO's that come out I can say they don't feel the same as they did in those older games and the Healer/DPS/Controller choice is IMO a big part of that.

    Finding that they "don't feel the same as in the old days" is a subjective option, something which I cannot debate, but don't try to downplay the fact that there are still (newer) games out there that have (and require) straight up support roles that fall outside of the usual tank/DPS/Healer.

    More context I added to my last post:

    "A Controller is one of the four roles available in DCUO. This role focuses on incapacitating enemies and group support including Power regeneration. Controllers have specific debuff abilities that can lower an opponent's defense, toughness, healing or damage output. This role requires high amounts of Vitalization and Dominance. The symbol that represents a controller is in the shape of a sound wave."

    Controllers in DCUO are nowhere even close to Enchanters of EQ or Controller of City Of Heroes.

     

    First off they don't have anywhere near the lockdown capability of either one.  Secondly because their CC is in fact so weak, it was not sufficient as a role in and of itself so during Beta Controllers were a second phase to their role of being the Energy battery for a group.

    In DCUO healer role replenishes health and Controller role replenishes energy.  Do they have some CC/Debuff?  sure but its not enough to be a role in and of itself such as has existed in other games.

     

    This is not my "opinion" and regardless of whatever BS text the marketing guys say in some blurb.  The fact is DCUO Controllers group gameplay was fundamentally altered during Beta because their CC was not enough for a role and the developers did not want to strengthen the CC, because like I have said in another post devs get the piss scared out of them at the thought of strong CC because of balancing problems of the past.

  • udonudon Durham, NCMember UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by doodphace
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun!   I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that.     What do you think?

    There have been quite a few games since EQ1 with Trinity+1, Rift, DCUO, and AoC to name a few.

    Rift has a "support" role, responsible for buffing party members and debuffing/CCing enimies. When you gueue for a dungon, you need 2 DPS, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Raids obviously have larger number requirements of each role.

    DCUO has a role called "controllers". Dungen groups consist of 1 DPS, 1 controller, 1 tank, and 1 healer. Controllers are basically respoinsible for replenishing group resources (replenishing mana, for lack of a better comparison). They are bascially a "healer" for player resource bars.

    AoC is basically exactly how you are describing EQ1, their +1 is straight up crowed control and buffs (Conquerer for example if I am not mistaken, its been a while since iv'e played AoC).

    I am sure there are others that arnt straight up trinity like WoW/SWTOR.

    The main difference is there isn't really dedicated support roles anymore.  All those games either compress that roll up into one of the core 3 or they allow you to spec into and out of it at will.  This has really diminished the value of those support roles.  I can only imagine that given how few people like to play those roles designing dungeons around requiring them has become problematic in this new age of easier content.  People just won't tolerate a game where you have to fill the group with specific roles anymore and where it might take a competent group of players multiple runs to clear a new dungeon for the first time.  They want random PUG's of whatever the dungeon finder can find thrown together to be able to zerg to the end with little need for more than button mashing.

    I have never raided in Rift, so I cannot say how much Support roles are required to be pure support and not a DPS hybrid, but I can say unequivocally that DCUO requires controllers to be straight up controllers, otherwise healers/DPS run out of "mana" and fights can't be downed.

    It's been awhile but I tend to remember controllers being more a subset of how you spec a core class than a dedicated role unto themselves.  The Chanter and Brad classes of EQ2 of old (not currently) where true support classes with no real options for being anything other than support classes.  They didn't have the option to fill a DPS role for instance if needed like they can today.  That's what is missing from more modern games is the dedicated 1-cap support role classes with no options to be anything else.  All the classes today in more modern games can pick and choose sometimes at will from at least 2 of the traditional roles tank, healer, dos, support. 

    Controllers are a straight up role. There were no DPS that can act as "controllers", and vise versa. All classes have 3 seperate specs, either Tank/DPS/Controller, or Healer/DPS/Controller. The fact that you think controllers are aa subset of how you "spec a core role", and not a core role themselves, makes me think you have never played DCUO. I dont know about EQ2, but 100% DCUO, Rift, and AoC have strait up required "support" classes.

    Maybe but the next run they can be straight up DPS specced if they want as well.  I'm just stating what I have observed which is support roles are not nearly as unique as they where in the past.  Maybe you disagree with that which is fine and I won't pretend to have played every game out there enough to say there are not exceptions but as someone who loves support roles and tends to play them a lot in new MMO's that come out I can say they don't feel the same as they did in those older games and the Healer/DPS/Controller choice is IMO a big part of that.

    Finding that they "don't feel the same as in the old days" is a subjective option, something which I cannot debate, but don't try to downplay the fact that there are still (newer) games out there that have (and require) straight up support roles that fall outside of the usual tank/DPS/Healer.

    More context I added to my last post:

    "A Controller is one of the four roles available in DCUO. This role focuses on incapacitating enemies and group support including Power regeneration. Controllers have specific debuff abilities that can lower an opponent's defense, toughness, healing or damage output. This role requires high amounts of Vitalization and Dominance. The symbol that represents a controller is in the shape of a sound wave."

    We are talking about very different things.  You are talking about a role that classes can choice between where I am talking about a role that only specific classes can do with no other options.  It all started with this dps/healer or dps/support or tank/dps choice instead of picking a class that is healer, dps, tank, or support.  It might not seem like a huge difference but my observation is it has completely changed how classes are designed and roles are filled in groups not to mention how dungeons are designed.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,118

    Two reasons.

     

    1. Lack of group play.

     

    The new models of gameplay are now more focusing on solo play till end game and using end game content for grouping means. This means that the "+1" to  the trinity are a primarily support roles. Most of the time those support classes have issues with soloing because of their lack of damage. 

     

    2. Bad Class Design

     

    I think there is a fair share of bad class design in most modern mmo's and it doesn't fit the core gameplay to have support classes. I think that no one is putting the effort in creativity for well designed support classes. Another issue is probably that support classes are the least desirable to play. I personally would love to see more group oriented games that include support archetypes. 

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIMember RarePosts: 2,888

    Because WoW showed that having classes dedicated to CC or buffs/debuffs is no longer needed.


    And MMOs that have tried to bring back the Support role have not been successful because they are just DPS that heal or buff/debuff while doing damage.

  • RattenmannRattenmann ReitmehringMember UncommonPosts: 613

    Actually the Trinity is Tank / Healer / CC.

    +1 (or better +3) has always been DPS roles.

     

    That being said, i don't know. It was a blast, it was challaging,... it seems like we will never get that back. The broad masses simply don't want to be bothered with challange. They want easy faceroll content. Preferably solo content. Grouping is a thing of the past, "working" for your goals is something of the past (not only in gaming sadly).

     

    If a game like EQ comes around again, ill sure play that one. Up to that point i am out of MMOs.

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sMember UncommonPosts: 2,110

    We don't see the expanded trinity because we went to the stupid 5 player group size and eliminated it. If an MMO brings back 6-man party size and support classes again, i'd play a bard in a heartbeat. 

    Some people say that support classes are not as rewarding, but i disagree. There's nothing like players begging you to come bard for them in groups. If the mechanics are in place, then support classes becomes just as important as the tank and healer. The problem is of course that those mechanics are not in place and have been removed.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHMember RarePosts: 5,903
    Originally posted by Alders
    We don't see the expanded trinity because we went to the stupid 5 player group size and eliminated it. If an MMO brings back 6-man party size and support classes again, i'd play a bard in a heartbeat.  Some people say that support classes are not as rewarding, but i disagree. There's nothing like players begging you to come bard for them in groups. If the mechanics are in place, then support classes becomes just as important as the tank and healer. The problem is of course that those mechanics are not in place and have been removed.

    Even LoL has some form of Trinity...

     

    tank on top, DPS in mid, bot and jungle

     

    Support/healer bot.

     

    5man is not an excuse. 

     

    Rift has 5man groups and has 4 roles. Tank DPS Healer Support. 

    image

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXMember UncommonPosts: 1,349

    The controller from DCUO is a very cool roles to have. Lineage 2 also has used two of the healers for recharging and off healing.

    Then you have the buffer/debuffer style support role that usually shows up as some kind of bard. 

    And then you have the straight up CCers which to often gets baked into another class.

    Another possible role is an interrupter. To my knowledge I have never see this as a separate role so you never see it mentioned as such. Interrupting is usually what the rogue or the warrior did at times in WoW. (Not sure if it is still the case.)

    Of course a lot of games still have these roles they are just not distinct to a particular classes. They are usually strewn all about the dpsers. 

     

    But the one thing I would most like to see is the idea of dps as a separate role disappear.  Every class with every role should bring the hurt. We don't need a class for someone who is too stupid to do anything but a dps rotation. "Ok Chucky, if you see someone with a skull over their head, stab them until they stop moving." True story, in Aion, I couldn't get half of my pug groups to kill things in order even when I marked everything with numbers. (1,2,3,4) Apparently counting to 4 is hard. But if I put a skull symbol over a mobs head the dps would always kill him first. I just had to keep the skull moving just a step faster than the dps, and of course keep all the mobs aggro'ed with almost no aoe aggro for tanks. It was actually the most fun I have had as a tank in any game with warrior in vanilla wow being a close second.

    Point is, almost everyone wants to kill things fast. You need dps to do that. If all you can do is dps then your going to want to do more dps to make up for not having anything else. If you do more dps the game isn't balanced. DPS should never be a role of its own. Like in the marine core. "Every Marine a rifleman." DPS is core, it is not special, everyone should be able to do it.

    All die, so die well.

  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 20,914
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun! I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that. What do you think?

    That never went away. The trinity includes that. Instead of a DPS doing the CC, the tank does the CC is the same thing. NOTHING about it changed.

    Actually it have changed. The trinity is very simplified today compared with Everquest. EQ had several more roles that have merged into the other roles, partly because they also cut down the group with one players and partially to make the games easier to play.

    If that is a good or bad thing depends on your views but people who played EQ (or even early EQ2) do notice the difference rather much.

    Personally I think that it is time to make a new trinity based on offence, defense and support where CC isn't so much based on taunting and using your skills to force the enemy to make you want and instead by locking your enemy in melee, positioning/body blocking and having your support and defence to move more while they fight.

    The old system have had a good run but it is constantly getting more simmplified but not more fun to play.Having DPS that just stands still and spamms attacks just isn't that fun.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember UncommonPosts: 6,591
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Alders
    We don't see the expanded trinity because we went to the stupid 5 player group size and eliminated it. If an MMO brings back 6-man party size and support classes again, i'd play a bard in a heartbeat.  Some people say that support classes are not as rewarding, but i disagree. There's nothing like players begging you to come bard for them in groups. If the mechanics are in place, then support classes becomes just as important as the tank and healer. The problem is of course that those mechanics are not in place and have been removed.

    Even LoL has some form of Trinity...

     

    tank on top, DPS in mid, bot and jungle

     

    Support/healer bot.

     

    5man is not an excuse. 

     

    Rift has 5man groups and has 4 roles. Tank DPS Healer Support. 

    I use to play Rift, and I would not consider Support a primary role like Tank/Damage/Healing are considered.s

    is just a damage fighter with heals and buffs. Their primary role is damage in the group, more so than Heals. In fact, the buffing tends to either increase damage or reduce damage to the tank.

    image

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sMember UncommonPosts: 2,110
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Alders
    We don't see the expanded trinity because we went to the stupid 5 player group size and eliminated it. If an MMO brings back 6-man party size and support classes again, i'd play a bard in a heartbeat.  Some people say that support classes are not as rewarding, but i disagree. There's nothing like players begging you to come bard for them in groups. If the mechanics are in place, then support classes becomes just as important as the tank and healer. The problem is of course that those mechanics are not in place and have been removed.

    Even LoL has some form of Trinity...

     

    tank on top, DPS in mid, bot and jungle

     

    Support/healer bot.

     

    5man is not an excuse. 

     

    Rift has 5man groups and has 4 roles. Tank DPS Healer Support. 

    I use to play Rift, and I would not consider Support a primary role like Tank/Damage/Healing are considered.s

    is just a damage fighter with heals and buffs. Their primary role is damage in the group, more so than Heals. In fact, the buffing tends to either increase damage or reduce damage to the tank.

    Yep. Support was not required in Rift at all. You were always better off with another full on dps than say a bard. For raiding it was obviously beneficial to bring a bard but i was more referring to requiring one.  There's a fine line there for sure since a bard was never required per say, but it was a pain in the ass to do anything group related without one in the olden days.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenMember UncommonPosts: 2,437

    EQ had spawn camping.

    Modern MMO use a rush-to-mob design, which means you don't need CC or pullers.

     

    Trinity now means Tank / Healer / DPS. In EQ it meant Warrior / Cleric / Enchanter, people called it trinity because there was a time those classes were extremely powerful, so we called it the holy trinity. It never included a DPS class.

    I feel current MMO are a watered down version of EQ, where everything is made simpler and easier, it's like an EQ light for kids. The only thing that is left is the DPS part, none of the control, none of the pulling challenges, none of the precision needed to CC mobs has translated to current MMO, they just removed it all in favor of action combat spam, ie. DPS.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCMember UncommonPosts: 6,591
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Back in the days when I played EQ1 I had so much fun fighting in groups through all the dungeons gaining loot from rare spawns. It was a blast. The usual group was a typical trinity + one crowd control char like a bard or enchanter. The fights were very intense and while we had enchanter that could hold like 7-9 adds in single target mezzes, the fights were super thrilling. one runner and the hell broke out. It was fun! I wonder why no other game took this path? Why? I knew a lot of people who liked that. What do you think?

    That never went away. The trinity includes that. Instead of a DPS doing the CC, the tank does the CC is the same thing. NOTHING about it changed.

    Actually it have changed. The trinity is very simplified today compared with Everquest. EQ had several more roles that have merged into the other roles, partly because they also cut down the group with one players and partially to make the games easier to play.

    If that is a good or bad thing depends on your views but people who played EQ (or even early EQ2) do notice the difference rather much.

    Personally I think that it is time to make a new trinity based on offence, defense and support where CC isn't so much based on taunting and using your skills to force the enemy to make you want and instead by locking your enemy in melee, positioning/body blocking and having your support and defence to move more while they fight.

    The old system have had a good run but it is constantly getting more simmplified but not more fun to play.Having DPS that just stands still and spamms attacks just isn't that fun.

    Wasn't EQ the game that created the trinity? So of course back then roles seem different, but in really they didn't get murres, just more classes can play more than one role, which has grown over time to all classes can play all roles (GW2 dream).

    also the body blocking idea may be interesting, but you have to keep in mind how much that will tax the server especially when it comes to large scale PvP. But unless only NPC can be body blocked, I can see your point, but that would require tanks to be balanced as such for both sides. Which could work.

    i read some replies in this thread, and honestly I believe you all are asking for the wrong things. You say you want a forth role in the trinity, but in reality what some of you really are asking, is for the return of single role classes.

    thats been my point. The trinity never really changed. What changed is the concept of Single Role Classes. GW1 had this with the Monk healer class, and WoW vanilla had this with the Paladin/Priest/Druid, which pretty much could only play as Healers back then. And from my perspective , that single role class system wasn't fun to me, because it limits how I can play a class I enjoy the story/roleplay with. 

     

    Example:

    i played a Paladin in Vanilla WoW. I like what the class stood for, and the lore behind the class. But we all know that lore of the Warcraft Paladin, and the Vanilla WoW Paladin were like total 180s. Paladins in vanilla had the worst tanking skills as well as the worst DPS skills, no-to-little CC, and was a avg healer compared to other healers, which meant that your only useful role was healing. That was totally not fun as time went on. Rift was the game hat got me back interested in Healing, because each class was designed for multiple roles, and the healer classes's healing specs were designed just to do that role well. Vanilla Paladins in WoW had only 2 useful heals

    TLDR:

    playing a 1 role class isn't fun to me. I don't see why the people asking for that to make a comeback simply won't just remove all skills that have nothing to do with your desired Role, off your hotbar and simply play it with onky skills that fit your role. Win win,,, no more hybrid for you while others get to keep our hybridness.

    image

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,680
    Originally posted by Rattenmann
    Actually the Trinity is Tank / Healer / CC. +1 (or better +3) has always been DPS roles.   That being said, i don't know. It was a blast, it was challaging,... it seems like we will never get that back. The broad masses simply don't want to be bothered with challange. They want easy faceroll content. Preferably solo content. Grouping is a thing of the past, "working" for your goals is something of the past (not only in gaming sadly).   If a game like EQ comes around again, ill sure play that one. Up to that point i am out of MMOs.

    From Richard Bartle:  http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html

    the "trinity" of tank, heals and dps.

    For other people in the thread, trinity existed long before EQ was developed.

     

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

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