Cash Shop and Patron Discussion

AmanaAmana New York, NYModerator UncommonPosts: 3,912

As I post this, there are about seven threads on the front page discussing the cash shop and Patron (subscription) and whether it's P2W or not. We don't need a million threads to split the discussion around, so I've created this thread for most cash shop oriented/P2W debates.

This thread is for the discussion of ArcheAge only. Please limit discussion to the cash shop/patron systems and related topics. We don't want to stifle discussion so if something comes up that isn't a debate, like say a major cash shop update or actual news, that can go elsewhere. We simply want to make sure that most of the "P2W" discussion isn't taking over across the entire AA forum.

To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com

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Comments

  • MensurMensur CopenhagenMember UncommonPosts: 485

    I wish they would make it a p2p game...with a few labor cash shops..and potions..thats it!

     

    then i would get back to the game!

  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 430

    lol its so bad they need a p2w mega thread....sigh

    yeah its p2w. tradable taxes and worker comp are a major contributor to the land problem(going beyond the botting). the tree boxes also was a pretty stupid sell out move.

    also if you dont own land make alot of alt accounts, patron isnt needed if you dont have land.

    also if you do own land make a alot of alt accounts and buy patron with ingame gold.

    also scotts hartsman(i know you ghost these forums)....trion really droped the ball on this game....had the potential to be a 100x better then this current embarrassement.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIMember RarePosts: 9,155

    Awesome 3rd.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAMember UncommonPosts: 904

    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched. 

    A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    image
  • MensurMensur CopenhagenMember UncommonPosts: 485
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    we can close this thread now!

  • JayFiveAliveJayFiveAlive Arvada, COMember UncommonPosts: 583
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Really well said - the economy is a clusterf*** and it's because of Trion. I swear every time I feel like I understand the market and things stabilize in their value, something is introduced in the cash shop that just sends everything all over the place. Stuff that was worth nothing costs a fortune and stuff that cost a fortune is worth nothing. It makes you say WTF!!!

    Le sigh.

    There isn't much point in beating the dead horse, but it's sad. This game could have been so much more. I so wish it was p2p. I'd even be fine with a cash shop if it was strictly cosmetic, MAYBE labor pots too but untradable. It sucks that you can pretty much trade anything in the cash shop.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,956
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Yep, Players will NEVER be allowed to drive this economy.

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  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Potomac, MDMember UncommonPosts: 1,207

    Oh neat, this is stickied now?  I might as well put this here then so I don't have to re-link it elsewhere.  This is a presentation by R2Games, an actual F2P business company that manages and publishes several browser based games.  They made like, $21 mil a month or some ridiculous amount at the time and likely make more money even now.  By looking at this presentation, you can get a look at the inner psyche, business strategies, and knowledge that an F2P company has.  If other F2P companies somehow didn't have this knowledge before, they probably do now since this presentation is public.

     

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

     

    Notice that Archeage ticks on a LOT of the points (equipment upgrading in the form of regrades and energy system in the form of labor, for example).  Not all of them, but probably more than enough, along with some new spins of its own, like rare in-game items like thunderstruck trees available from RNG boxes in the cash shop, and most glaringly, $150 founders packs which REALLY sends the alarm bells off regarding the "Make as much money as early as possible" part of the presentation.  Oh, that and AA is a game where you can pay for a subscription yet despite paying a subscription, others who pay more than you get more perks.  It's like, the worse of both F2P AND P2P for consumers!  (and now, buying your subscription with in-game gold is harder than ever now that APEX prices are skyrocketting, in part thanks to some of the latest cash shop additions!  Hooray!)

     

    Don't forget to look at the pros and cons!  Game companies fully know that having these sorts of things in the game shorten the life span and reduce player retention, so odds are pretty good Trion and/or XLGames knew, too.

  • Ket_VilianoKet_Viliano Concord, CAMember UncommonPosts: 271
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Good grief, there is no such thing as a 'free market', all markets have rules, the first of which is 'no killing your competition', the second is 'no stealing'. Just those two laws alone restrict the action of all market participants. Most all markets also have a 'pay yer taxs' rule, that one funds the guards that stop the killin and stealin. I could go on, but you really ought to know this stuff.

    Ok, back to mmo games.

     

    Ok, a further comment, to wit: Trion and XL have taken advantage of existing rules of the IRL market, to create their own private market, and have then abused ( my opinion, sure, but also that of many others ) this power to rake in the cash. Labor, Thunder Struck Trees, fancy fast mounts / Sparkle Ponies ( disclaimer: I bought one ), all of these are mechanisms to create an artificial scarcity, which can be alleviated by the cash shop. It is the sudden and unexpected changes to the cash shop that mess up the in game market.

     

    And thanks to TiamatRoar for the GDC vault presentation, that one is a classic.

     

    And, as this is stickied, we ought to include the eloquent, erudite message from this Youtube poster:

    His 'Merican is flawless, perfect, an inspiration to us all.

  • RandaynRandayn Sellersville, PAMember UncommonPosts: 904
    Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Good grief, there is no such thing as a 'free market', all markets have rules, the first of which is 'no killing your competition', the second is 'no stealing'. Just those two laws alone restrict the action of all market participants. Most all markets also have a 'pay yer taxs' rule, that one funds the guards that stop the killin and stealin. I could go on, but you really ought to know this stuff.

     

    There actually is a thing such as a free market....you could see it on the internet until government felt the need to tax and regulate.  

    No stealing or killing are general laws that are not economic laws...not sure where you are going with that...

    Maybe you should read some economics books, but first read about how laws impact things and how liberty and justice  trump any law that does not co-exist with those two things.

    image
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,127

    Its not P2W but nobody gives a flying F about that so who cares.

    Make it rain!

     

    ArcheAge - yes you can throw money at it - you still won't win jack, you'll end up with gear that is maybe 10% better than GHA/Serpentis gear or Hasla T3.

    So go ahead and throw money into this game - the free players appreciate you funding the game for us :)

     

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,127
    Originally posted by TiamatRoar
    Oh neat, this is stickied now?  I might as well put this here then so I don't have to re-link it elsewhere.  This is a presentation by R2Games, an actual F2P business company that manages and publishes several browser based games.  They made like, $21 mil a month or some ridiculous amount at the time and likely make more money even now.  By looking at this presentation, you can get a look at the inner psyche, business strategies, and knowledge that an F2P company has.  If other F2P companies somehow didn't have this knowledge before, they probably do now since this presentation is public.   http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An   Notice that Archeage ticks on a LOT of the points (equipment upgrading in the form of regrades and energy system in the form of labor, for example).  Not all of them, but probably more than enough, along with some new spins of its own, like rare in-game items like thunderstruck trees available from RNG boxes in the cash shop, and most glaringly, $150 founders packs which REALLY sends the alarm bells off regarding the "Make as much money as early as possible" part of the presentation.  Oh, that and AA is a game where you can pay for a subscription yet despite paying a subscription, others who pay more than you get more perks.  It's like, the worse of both F2P AND P2P for consumers!  (and now, buying your subscription with in-game gold is harder than ever now that APEX prices are skyrocketting, in part thanks to some of the latest cash shop additions!  Hooray!)   Don't forget to look at the pros and cons!  Game companies fully know that having these sorts of things in the game shorten the life span and reduce player retention, so odds are pretty good Trion and/or XLGames knew, too.

     

    Was anyone forced to buy anyithing - or is this a simple case of folks spending money on something they like?

    Don't like it? Don't buy it - simple.

     

    Also - fact - you can download and play ArcheAge forever without spending a single cent - period.

    You can buy everything for in game gold

     

    So it can be played 100% free - those evil devs - making the game free for all - so greedy!

    lol

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,956
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Its not P2W but nobody gives a flying F about that so who cares. Make it rain!   ArcheAge - yes you can throw money at it - you still won't win jack, you'll end up with gear that is maybe 10% better than GHA/Serpentis gear or Hasla T3. So go ahead and throw money into this game - the free players appreciate you funding the game for us :)    

    Weren't you just arguing how this game isn't pay to win? Now you admit it's 10%?

    You are far to inconsistent in your defenses.

    Oh, and if it's AA we are talking about, those should be hundreds to make a difference.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTMember UncommonPosts: 1,175

    Just installed. Seems like ability selection is a good idea.

    Wanted to try some other races....found out it takes 24 hrs to delete....Or I can buy more slots.....Seems lame that you cant own land unless you are a patron...seems like all the land is claimed also...

     

    As far as the P2W argument goes...Just because you "can" get all you want with in game gold doesn't mean you can...Just like the original Marijuana Tax Stamp law....Sure if you had a tax stamp you could have your MJ, but you couldn't get a tax stamp.

     

    Also if the debate is over the word "win" it is likely that it IS P 2 "Win".

     

    There are my 2 coppers.

     

    Again I really like the character design system.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,127
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Its not P2W but nobody gives a flying F about that so who cares. Make it rain!   ArcheAge - yes you can throw money at it - you still won't win jack, you'll end up with gear that is maybe 10% better than GHA/Serpentis gear or Hasla T3. So go ahead and throw money into this game - the free players appreciate you funding the game for us :)    

    Weren't you just arguing how this game isn't pay to win? Now you admit it's 10%?

    You are far to inconsistent in your defenses.

    Oh, and if it's AA we are talking about, those should be hundreds to make a difference.

    The game is not pay to win.

    The game is free to play last time I checked.

    To many pay to faster = pay to win - this is probably what you believe as well.

    If you believe this, nothing I or anyone can say that will change your mind, so why even bother?

    To me pay to win = cash shop sells gear that is better than anything in game and can only be bought with real money, and cannot be traded or sold in game.

    That is pay to win for me - since ArcheAge allows everything including cash shop credits to be bought with in game gold it isn't P2W.

    A free player has access to all gear in game, no gear is behind the pay wall

    P2W games have gear that MUST be bought to "win" - AA has no such mechanics.

    Hence it is not P2W 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember EpicPosts: 7,956
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Its not P2W but nobody gives a flying F about that so who cares. Make it rain!   ArcheAge - yes you can throw money at it - you still won't win jack, you'll end up with gear that is maybe 10% better than GHA/Serpentis gear or Hasla T3. So go ahead and throw money into this game - the free players appreciate you funding the game for us :)    

    Weren't you just arguing how this game isn't pay to win? Now you admit it's 10%?

    You are far to inconsistent in your defenses.

    Oh, and if it's AA we are talking about, those should be hundreds to make a difference.

    The game is not pay to win.

    The game is free to play last time I checked.

    To many pay to faster = pay to win - this is probably what you believe as well.

    If you believe this, nothing I or anyone can say that will change your mind, so why even bother?

    To me pay to win = cash shop sells gear that is better than anything in game and can only be bought with real money, and cannot be traded or sold in game.

    That is pay to win for me - since ArcheAge allows everything including cash shop credits to be bought with in game gold it isn't P2W.

    A free player has access to all gear in game, no gear is behind the pay wall

    P2W games have gear that MUST be bought to "win" - AA has no such mechanics.

    Hence it is not P2W 

    Can't argue subjectivity. I have a different definition. One that involves being able to translate real money into the game. Especially in an MMO where the game itself revolves around the economy.

    But, that aside, how many patrons who use the CS minimally,  have actually overcome the lack of "pay 2 faster" by grinding it out and are RIGHT NOW able to compete on a level playing field with whales?

     

  • Adam1902Adam1902 Member UncommonPosts: 534

    ArcheAge is no more P2W than every MMO. Obviously I don't need to explain to you that the gear you purchase with cash (by buying APEX, selling it on the AH for gold to purchase gear crafted / found by players) is being funded by players. It's not spawned in to the game artificially.

    In that case, every MMO is P2W because I can go to an RMT site and buy gold and do the same thing. Don't even talk to me about soulbound items, that's quite a pathetic limiting concept.

    But yeah, there you go.

    _________
    Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)

    Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.

  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Potomac, MDMember UncommonPosts: 1,207
    Originally posted by Adam1902
    ArcheAge is no more P2W than every MMO. Obviously I don't need to explain to you that the gear you purchase with cash (by buying APEX, selling it on the AH for gold to purchase gear crafted / found by players) is being funded by players. It's not spawned in to the game artificially. In that case, every MMO is P2W because I can go to an RMT site and buy gold and do the same thing. Don't even talk to me about soulbound items, that's quite a pathetic limiting concept. But yeah, there you go.

    P2W or not, APEX prices are soaring.  What matters in the end isn't whether or not a game is pay to win.   It's if the game is fun.  And for most people, the game probably won't be very fun if they aren't whales when APEX is up to 300 and labor potions are selling for 50g per at a time when everyone is at "endgame" where 1000 labor gets used up  in 10 minutes thanks to a super-hauler wagon (not in-game yet, but coming soon it seems. The recipe's already on display) holding 6+ tradepacks.

     

    Guy spends almost all his labor crafting a huge ridiculous amount of tradepacks for his wagon, spends a ridiculous amount of labor turning them in, then is out of labor and can't afford labor pots cause they're stupidly expensive.  At that point, who cares if "the game isn't pay to win because you can buy labor potions from others for gold!"?  That wont change the fact that the game is just boring to play at that point because you've just blown an entire day of labor regen in 45 minutes and labor potions that "you can buy for gold" are too expensive for your gold to buy.  I've already seen posts by various people on the forums that this is starting to be the case for them now, and it's only going to get worse once they upgrade their wagons further and labor potions keep going up in price.  Yea, that's going to go over reeeeeaaaal well.

     

    And honestly, who's fault is that?  It's the monetization system's fault.  Whether or not the game is P2W, the issue of people blowing all their labor in 45 minutes and then having nothing to do for the rest of the day wouldn't exist if labor didn't exist.

     

    Alternatively it's the players' fault for playing the game and thus using up their labor.  In which case, they should stop playing.  And find another game.  ...yea, that's going to go over real well, too.

     

    There's a reason why R2Games states in their business presentation that these sorts of things decrease the game's lifespan and player retention.  Even if energy systems like AA's labor was not pay-to-win by your definition, that doesn't change the fact that it SUCKS past a certain point.  And many players and the game's economy are starting to get past that certain point...

  • d_20d_20 SeoulMember RarePosts: 1,631

    People still talking about this?

     

    Cut your losses and run!

    image
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,127
    Originally posted by d_20
    People still talking about this?   Cut your losses and run!

    Run to what?

    Also you can simply stay and not spend money.

    Cash shop can be ignored 100%

     

  • Ket_VilianoKet_Viliano Concord, CAMember UncommonPosts: 271
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Good grief, there is no such thing as a 'free market', all markets have rules, the first of which is 'no killing your competition', the second is 'no stealing'. Just those two laws alone restrict the action of all market participants. Most all markets also have a 'pay yer taxs' rule, that one funds the guards that stop the killin and stealin. I could go on, but you really ought to know this stuff.

     

    There actually is a thing such as a free market....you could see it on the internet until government felt the need to tax and regulate.  

    No stealing or killing are general laws that are not economic laws...not sure where you are going with that...

    Maybe you should read some economics books, but first read about how laws impact things and how liberty and justice  trump any law that does not co-exist with those two things.

    At this point, it is pretty clear that I am better read than you ever will be.

    Just a hint for you, the internet was never 'free'. Not from laws, nor from regulation. Heck, most people could not get onto the internet until the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

    Trying to create a distinction between 'general' laws and 'economic' laws is a joke you play on your self, there is no such distinction made in jurisprudence. Here is a clue for you: all markets are dependent on a system of law for their operation. No court, no cops, no custom, no market. Even 'black' markets function according to an unwritten custom, a habit based on raw human behavior. Trust me, I know this from personal experience, not that you would care.

    Try learning Greek sometime, it's a hoot.

  • PioneerStewPioneerStew londonMember Posts: 874
    Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Good grief, there is no such thing as a 'free market', all markets have rules, the first of which is 'no killing your competition', the second is 'no stealing'. Just those two laws alone restrict the action of all market participants. Most all markets also have a 'pay yer taxs' rule, that one funds the guards that stop the killin and stealin. I could go on, but you really ought to know this stuff.

     

    There actually is a thing such as a free market....you could see it on the internet until government felt the need to tax and regulate.  

    No stealing or killing are general laws that are not economic laws...not sure where you are going with that...

    Maybe you should read some economics books, but first read about how laws impact things and how liberty and justice  trump any law that does not co-exist with those two things.

    At this point, it is pretty clear that I am better read than you ever will be.

    Just a hint for you, the internet was never 'free'. Not from laws, nor from regulation. Heck, most people could not get onto the internet until the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

    Trying to create a distinction between 'general' laws and 'economic' laws is a joke you play on your self, there is no such distinction made in jurisprudence. Here is a clue for you: all markets are dependent on a system of law for their operation. No court, no cops, no custom, no market. Even 'black' markets function according to an unwritten custom, a habit based on raw human behavior. Trust me, I know this from personal experience, not that you would care.

    Try learning Greek sometime, it's a hoot.

    I get the impression you are both speaking from a swift Google search.  

  • Ket_VilianoKet_Viliano Concord, CAMember UncommonPosts: 271
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
    Originally posted by Randayn
    Originally posted by Ket_Viliano
    Originally posted by Randayn
    I just find it funny that this couldnt be detected by players as early as beta....probably even alpha.  The basic design of the game's systems revolved around the cash shop easing the pain.  Grind was painstaking, but you could eliminate it with cash shop.  It's a basic concept used in many games that came before Archeage.  The economy was doomed before the game was launched.  A player economy cannot exist if the devs interfere with it over and over...wait....this is some people's first lesson in how intervening in a free market economy is both hazardous and very dangerous to a free market...woot!!!

    Good grief, there is no such thing as a 'free market', all markets have rules, the first of which is 'no killing your competition', the second is 'no stealing'. Just those two laws alone restrict the action of all market participants. Most all markets also have a 'pay yer taxs' rule, that one funds the guards that stop the killin and stealin. I could go on, but you really ought to know this stuff.

     

    There actually is a thing such as a free market....you could see it on the internet until government felt the need to tax and regulate.  

    No stealing or killing are general laws that are not economic laws...not sure where you are going with that...

    Maybe you should read some economics books, but first read about how laws impact things and how liberty and justice  trump any law that does not co-exist with those two things.

    At this point, it is pretty clear that I am better read than you ever will be.

    Just a hint for you, the internet was never 'free'. Not from laws, nor from regulation. Heck, most people could not get onto the internet until the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

    Trying to create a distinction between 'general' laws and 'economic' laws is a joke you play on your self, there is no such distinction made in jurisprudence. Here is a clue for you: all markets are dependent on a system of law for their operation. No court, no cops, no custom, no market. Even 'black' markets function according to an unwritten custom, a habit based on raw human behavior. Trust me, I know this from personal experience, not that you would care.

    Try learning Greek sometime, it's a hoot.

    I get the impression you are both speaking from a swift Google search.  

    No, I actually keep this stuff in my head :P

  • Ragnar1337Ragnar1337 Atlantis, ALMember CommonPosts: 70
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by d_20
    People still talking about this?   Cut your losses and run!

    Run to what?

    Also you can simply stay and not spend money.

    Cash shop can be ignored 100%

     

    You are 100% wrong. I wish you luck trying to play this game without ever buying items that someone bought on the cash shop. Just because you buy it with gold doesn't mean you are not using the cash shop. Yes you can buy apex for a subscription and lp potions for gold but then you will basically be playing just to keep playing and accomplishing very little if anything. There is literally nothing you can do in this game without using labor points. Even if you go steal other peoples packs you need lp to turn them in. If you want to grind mobs all day you need lp to open the coin purses. This game has been a complete disaster and will cost trion far more in the long run that it gets them in the short term. RIP Trion, I'll be surprised if this company exists in it's current state past 2015 after this shitfest. 

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