Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
buddy you do know that each NPC gets their own set of bricks that, when confronted with other NPC's bricks, environmental bricks, your PC's bricks and any other bricks in the vicinity, cause said NPC to react in any number of ways... right? this has been explained ad nauseum in this thread and others like it. every NPC is running on a set of variables, not constants. each time they encounter something the bricks and their ranked importance (based on the mob and its personal wants/desires due to it being a dark elf/druid/elemental/whatever) determine how the NPC might react.
Say the NPC is an iksar so it likes water and your character's race is a weak swimmer; the iksar might run straight for the water because it knows it can escape since you cant swim for crap. Now lets say you are playing a mage with a water pet or a shaman with levetate which allows you to continue your pursuit over water with no issues, that same iksar might choose to run for a group of his iksar friends even though they are farther away than the water is because it knows, through the use of bricks, that water won't slow you down and it will end up dying. This is just a tiny example of what is possible with story bricks and how they interact with other things. Story bricks is about interaction between objects in the world and (let me say this again...) how things deal with one another in random ways depending on all variables present in each situation.
Do you understand? Is this too difficult? I can't really make it any easier to comprehend.
You are just confusing people, each npc have a set of bricks which are his variables, but they are not constant ? Do you mean that his likes/dislikes will change ?
Evilized do you understand math and the concept of permutation ? Or does your education not go that far. This is just a set permutations that are programed and calculated based on a single decision. It's not that difficult to understand the key factor that leads to the next set of choices is the first choice. Whatever that is. It may be made the moment you decide to create your toon.This is why faction becomes important, it's your defining limit. A favorable faction/decision leads to a set of choices and vice versa. It a mathematical formula. In the end it still land you in a certain place. It's not infinite because the calculating power and space that would be needed to run and permutation with no limits would be unfathomable. ( that incidentally is called real life ) There is no computer available that could play what some people are suggesting. Fanboi's need to get a grip. It's a game and every event, action , reaction and response by and NPC is scripted. These are not sentient, aware and independent beings , no matter how much your fanboi fantasy mind would like them to be. It's nothing as dynamic as you suggest , that's a fantasy.
Fanboi's need to get a grip. It's a game and every event, action , reaction and response by and NPC is scripted.
I don't think people are over thinking this or "fanboying". Watching the video linked at the top of the page, near the end he says, it won't have to be scripted. Yes some will be, but majority won't be. The NPC will do it on it's own. I don't think it can get anymore clearer than that tbh and straight from the horses mouth
Now will this work in EQN is another story. Storybricks seems like a great bit of kit which i feel will a have very positive affect on MMOs if it works well.
There is a huge difference between whole event scenarios being scripted with n outcomes and each NPC within a world being scripted while that world does constant state checks and feeds it to the NPCs. That is the short explanation of what SB is designing. Once each NPC & NPC group is given a set of like/dislike parameters and set free in the world they will seek, or stay away from, those things.
Is it scripted? Of course, it's a software program. The thing that sets it apart, in theory , is that by scripting the individual pieces and allowing them to roam with their own wants they can "change the landscape." Because of the added RNG elements the end results can be a surprise, even to the devs, though the individual choices of the NPCs would be known. This was shown in the video by the "test runs" they did between the Dark Elves, Dryads and "Spirits."
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
buddy you do know that each NPC gets their own set of bricks that, when confronted with other NPC's bricks, environmental bricks, your PC's bricks and any other bricks in the vicinity, cause said NPC to react in any number of ways... right? this has been explained ad nauseum in this thread and others like it. every NPC is running on a set of variables, not constants. each time they encounter something the bricks and their ranked importance (based on the mob and its personal wants/desires due to it being a dark elf/druid/elemental/whatever) determine how the NPC might react.
Say the NPC is an iksar so it likes water and your character's race is a weak swimmer; the iksar might run straight for the water because it knows it can escape since you cant swim for crap. Now lets say you are playing a mage with a water pet or a shaman with levetate which allows you to continue your pursuit over water with no issues, that same iksar might choose to run for a group of his iksar friends even though they are farther away than the water is because it knows, through the use of bricks, that water won't slow you down and it will end up dying. This is just a tiny example of what is possible with story bricks and how they interact with other things. Story bricks is about interaction between objects in the world and (let me say this again...) how things deal with one another in random ways depending on all variables present in each situation.
Do you understand? Is this too difficult? I can't really make it any easier to comprehend.
You are just confusing people, each npc have a set of bricks which are his variables, but they are not constant ? Do you mean that his likes/dislikes will change ?
The order of importance of the bricks can and will change depending on the situation. Say a group of orcs have just spawned and are out in the wilderness. Their normal #1 objective is to seek out any gold they can find but before they do that they need to establish a camp so the orcs go around looking for the best piece of real estate for their set of needs.
The orcs now have their camp set up so it's time to start looking for sources of gold. The orcs find a road that has merchants traveling on it that carry gold so they start to rob them. This attracts the attention of some of the local towns once the merchants that escape report the robberies to the town guards. The town guard's #1 goal is to maintain peace and order in their sphere of influence so they head out along the road to kill the orcs and keep the merchants safe.
The orcs see the guards and the AI needs to make a choice - do the orcs have enough manpower to fend off the intruding guard and maintain their camp or do they need to pick up and move to a different, safer spot? Depending on the bricks the guard has as well as any other bricks in the area that may help influence the decision like climate, time of day, what race controls the area, etc, the orcs make a decision.
In this case, since it is getting colder and starting to snow and orcs dislike snow and prefer warmer weather and including the fact that guards are now patrolling the area interfering with their robberies, the orcs decide (based on the combination of bricks they have interacted with) to pick up camp and move on.
While all this is happening, maybe crime picked up back in the village because thieves saw that the guards had been diverted to the roads in order to take care of the orc problem, so the guards #1 priority (peace and justice) makes them move back to town to deal with the new #1 threat to their ward's lives and livelihood, the thieves.
Point being , it's a static environment being that your choice is the only variable. Regardless of the timeframe it occurs in, everything refresh's. See landmark resources do refresh . What you did to the environment was not permanent. So much for that living Storybrick. It's just another name for quest line. Some marketing guru decided it needed to be exciting and imaginative to excite the fanboi's. Seems to have worked. The connotation being that one choice builds on the other leading to a path. But hey, believe what you want. Questing is questing. Which leads to building faction , which determines where you end up at end game for more raids/quests. Sony fanboi's are just too funny.
buddy you do know that each NPC gets their own set of bricks that, when confronted with other NPC's bricks, environmental bricks, your PC's bricks and any other bricks in the vicinity, cause said NPC to react in any number of ways... right? this has been explained ad nauseum in this thread and others like it. every NPC is running on a set of variables, not constants. each time they encounter something the bricks and their ranked importance (based on the mob and its personal wants/desires due to it being a dark elf/druid/elemental/whatever) determine how the NPC might react.
Say the NPC is an iksar so it likes water and your character's race is a weak swimmer; the iksar might run straight for the water because it knows it can escape since you cant swim for crap. Now lets say you are playing a mage with a water pet or a shaman with levetate which allows you to continue your pursuit over water with no issues, that same iksar might choose to run for a group of his iksar friends even though they are farther away than the water is because it knows, through the use of bricks, that water won't slow you down and it will end up dying. This is just a tiny example of what is possible with story bricks and how they interact with other things. Story bricks is about interaction between objects in the world and (let me say this again...) how things deal with one another in random ways depending on all variables present in each situation.
Do you understand? Is this too difficult? I can't really make it any easier to comprehend.
You are just confusing people, each npc have a set of bricks which are his variables, but they are not constant ? Do you mean that his likes/dislikes will change ?
Evilized do you understand math and the concept of permutation ? Or does your education not go that far. This is just a set permutations that are programed and calculated based on a single decision. It's not that difficult to understand the key factor that leads to the next set of choices is the first choice. Whatever that is. It may be made the moment you decide to create your toon.This is why faction becomes important, it's your defining limit. A favorable faction/decision leads to a set of choices and vice versa. It a mathematical formula. In the end it still land you in a certain place. It's not infinite because the calculating power and space that would be needed to run and permutation with no limits would be unfathomable. ( that incidentally is called real life ) There is no computer available that could play what some people are suggesting. Fanboi's need to get a grip. It's a game and every event, action , reaction and response by and NPC is scripted. These are not sentient, aware and independent beings , no matter how much your fanboi fantasy mind would like them to be. It's nothing as dynamic as you suggest , that's a fantasy.
When did I ever say faction didn't have any part in this? Of course faction has a role but faction is also just a tiny part of all the things that go into the system. According to the devs you can ruin your faction with whomever you'd like, just like you can raise you faction with whomever you'd like (yes, this was in EQ1 as well, oh my god! My Iksar SK was "ally" with Kelethin... so many dead orcs).
When did I ever allude to the NPCs being anywhere near sentient. Read what I typed again, if you're having trouble try sounding out the words aloud until you get it, it may be hard but I have faith in you. Story Bricks is a system based on layered variables that dictate (when they interact with each other) the actions taken by NPCs in the game world. These actions are (to the observer) random since there will be so many variables floating around and interacting with each other it will be impossible to predict everything that will happen. Yes, you will still get to know the habits of things, just like hunters can understand the habits of the animals they hunt or you understand how traffic works in a certain intersection, but there is the chance that some new factor will introduce itself and throw things out of wack, causing different reactions from the NPCs and potentially chaining on down the line to the opposite end of whatever in-game continent you are on.
All of this has been explained by devs over and over again, as well as numerous people in this thread. There's a lot of info linked in this thread that you can reference if you'd like to help you out, and I encourage it. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Not scripted. If you dont get what the difference between scripted programing for AI and what Storybrocks is, our conversation is done. Storybrocks is a different beast. With scripting every interaction needs to be scripted. With every action and path a NPC takes it needs to be scripted. With Storybricks its more like making a set of rules and sending NPCs into the world to see what happens. Sometimes it will come out just like they want but other times it will have an outcome no one could guess at. Between players and how you never know what they are going to do and Storybricks having the same nature, this has the possibility to be something new and unique. IF they pull it off. Not saying they will but what they are making is not scripted NPCs.
Watch the Storybricks video I linked above, all about NPC actions is scripted. You can see the process of scripting there for yourself.
Not scripted. If you dont get what the difference between scripted programing for AI and what Storybrocks is, our conversation is done. Storybrocks is a different beast. With scripting every interaction needs to be scripted. With every action and path a NPC takes it needs to be scripted. With Storybricks its more like making a set of rules and sending NPCs into the world to see what happens. Sometimes it will come out just like they want but other times it will have an outcome no one could guess at. Between players and how you never know what they are going to do and Storybricks having the same nature, this has the possibility to be something new and unique. IF they pull it off. Not saying they will but what they are making is not scripted NPCs.
Watch the Storybricks video I linked above, all about NPC actions is scripted. You can see the process of scripting there for yourself.
It indeed is scripting but there are other things going on as well. Also keep in mind that video was posted 2 years ago, before EQN was even announced and SoE is using a pretty heavily modified version of the original Story Bricks depicted in the video.
After watching these presentations I can see that a destructible world is probably needed to make storybricks successful and I think that they stated that in an interview.
If for example orcs attacks a farm and it is burned down to a ruin for every player to see it feels a lot more meaningful than the farm still being there after the attack.
The players ability to destroy terrain could however be a problem in these scenarios. Lets says that I adopt a merchant and make him really powerful. I do a lot of quests and he now has trading routes, guards and starts to build a wall around his estate. But some other players comes around and levels everything...
If bandits or a rebel army supported by players leveled it I could probably take it since this is part of a changing world but there will always be players going around leveling everything in a destructible world.
I guess that they have already thought about this since they talked about making player cities immune to player damage.
One options (there are probably better ones ) could be to let player damage heal but NPC damage doesn’t heal. This would let the griefing players make temporary changes in the world but they need the NPC:s help to make permanent changes. A grefing player would probably also be attacked on sight after a while by certain NPC:s or could get a bad reputation among other NPC:s, get smithed by gods etc.
Have anyone heard more about player destruction impacting the word?
Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by Gdemami Here is how Storybrick scripting works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3b_3UGc7Es#t=100 It is essentially a quest builder. Many devs use something like that. CCP use similar tool to generate NPC missions.
The discussion went quite off the track so I repost this to show people how Storybricks actually works. It is regular scripted behaviour, just more chained.
People have once again unrealistic expectations.
Since that is "regular" scripted behavior, would you care to come up with an example of a game where the NPCs currently have the range of dynamic behavior and responses comparable to what's possible just in that video?
I've yet to run into a game where if I kill enough of the NPCs fast enough they pull up sticks and move their entire town to some random location.
**
Would like to point out that it doesn't matter how cool StoryBricks it, it really depends on what EQN does with the system as to whether or not it will be cool. That alpha video demonstrates a bit more functionality than SOE has talked about with their "Orc" examples.
Any game AI is possible to do what Storybricks is doing, because there is nothing new going on here, it is just same scripting all games are using.
I never denied that the scope is somewhat wider than in other games, I explicitely said that the conditional chain is larger than usual, however, it still does not result in what people are imagining here - it is still regular scripted behavior.
If you approach an NPC 10 in a row and ask same question, it will provide exactly same answer. The NPCs do not learn, do not evolve, they are not sentient.
And as you said, it ultimately boils down to implementation. It is entirely possible just only couple of NPCs will have this AI. It is entirely possible that at the end the impact of the AI on game world won't be as large due issues with world persistence, etc.
However, people need to get real with their expectatins, so far they are ridiculous.
Originally posted by evilizedIt indeed is scripting but there are other things going on as well. Also keep in mind that video was posted 2 years ago, before EQN was even announced and SoE is using a pretty heavily modified version of the original Story Bricks depicted in the video.
It does not matter how much you modify it, it won't change how it works in core. The scripts might get more chained with increased computing power but that is about all.
I can guess that most of those modifications are towards imlementing the tech into their infrasructure and specific MMO environment.
That is a drawback of middleware, at the end it may get very costly, inefficient and underwhelming. Just like happened to BioWare with SWTOR and Hero engine.
I think it's obvious that EQN will have amazing innovation features that have never been present in the genre. I think it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves for personal reasons all because I feel they are upset it isn't going to be a clone of what has come and gone and come again. Love the direction this game is taking but I'll not get too hyped till I see it in action for myself.
I think it is fairly obvious why Tenton Hammer and others have lauded over it's potential with unheralded and unprecedented awards!
EDIT: For some reason it isn't letting me link with the editor so just cut and paste.
Sadly, the only thing about EQN I cannot stand is the art-style ... just isn't pleasant to me. Looks like a Disney movie ...
I think it's obvious that EQN will have amazing innovation features that have never been present in the genre. I think it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves for personal reasons all because I feel they are upset it isn't going to be a clone of what has come and gone and come again. Love the direction this game is taking but I'll not get too hyped till I see it in action for myself.
I think it is fairly obvious why Tenton Hammer and others have lauded over it's potential with unheralded and unprecedented awards!
EDIT: For some reason it isn't letting me link with the editor so just cut and paste.
Sadly, the only thing about EQN I cannot stand is the art-style ... just isn't pleasant to me. Looks like a Disney movie ...
People love disney movies. So that is a good thing. Anyways i am not the one to hung up on looks for me gameplay that matters.
I don't always agree with Kano.However, in this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with his points.
1. You are comparing a Pre-Alpha development spec against a system that is already released. But let's look at a bit of history here and compare apples to apples.
Going back in time a few years to GW2 pre-alpha and quite frankly even into it's Betas, and look at the threads about what Dynamic Events were going to do for the genre. THAT is the comparison you should be making here. Looking at what DEs were supposed to do vs what they actually did.
Why do am I saying to compare it like that? Because at that time, you had the actual product that ANET developed, but the data, info and facts that anyone had access to, 1st had to go through marketing. Marketing will ALWAYS take a product and blow it up to be bigger than what it really is. Story Bricks is no exception.
If GW2 were still in Development and we were reading about what DE's are going to do for the genre based on what ANET told us back in 2010 and 2011, These threads comparing the 2 would be quite different.
except dynamic events ARE changing the genre? Storybricks is the next step and after storybricks who knows what we'll get. I'm sure blizzard has been working on their own version of this whole thing for their next MMO (titan?) as well. Innovation is a moving target... you never arrive.
That's not my point.
We've had a chance to kick the tires on DEs we've seen what they do vs what we were once told they would do and there is a big difference there.
It will be the same for Storybricks. Once it's out and we can see it for what it is, there will be a difference between the effective experience players have vs what we are now being told it will have.
That's just how marketing works.
Except DE's from GW2 were delivered and performed exactly as promised, so your point is invalid. Just because you built it up into some wildly out of control idea in your head doesn't mean they didn't deliver the feature as stated. If you think you're correct then please provide a statement, or video, or something from ANet devs that promised something with DE's that it didn't actually do. I'll be tickled to death if you could and prove me wrong.
I think it's obvious that EQN will have amazing innovation features that have never been present in the genre. I think it is articles like this that prove it and anyone who thinks EQN isn't going to be innovative is fooling themselves for personal reasons all because I feel they are upset it isn't going to be a clone of what has come and gone and come again. Love the direction this game is taking but I'll not get too hyped till I see it in action for myself.
I think it is fairly obvious why Tenton Hammer and others have lauded over it's potential with unheralded and unprecedented awards!
EDIT: For some reason it isn't letting me link with the editor so just cut and paste.
Sadly, the only thing about EQN I cannot stand is the art-style ... just isn't pleasant to me. Looks like a Disney movie ...
I partially agree.. I find the art style confusing.. When you take a glance at the world you are told it's more real then fantasy.. The ground textures, shadowing, water reflection, etc etc.. But then you look at some of the armor and characters and you are reminded you are playing a cartoon.. To me, they are in conflict with each other.. Now for my big complaint to what I have seen so far.. All the character models look like girlie momma's boys, even the dark elves.. The lion warrior was laughable at best.. Where are the ugly aggressive evil looks? Maybe I want to play a one eyed scared "DARK" elf that blends into shadows at night, will the character creation screen allow it? But I"ll wait and see.. The game is still years away from going live, so maybe they'll add in hard looking toons to offset the softer versions..
I don't always agree with Kano.However, in this thread, I wholeheartedly agree with his points.
1. You are comparing a Pre-Alpha development spec against a system that is already released. But let's look at a bit of history here and compare apples to apples.
Going back in time a few years to GW2 pre-alpha and quite frankly even into it's Betas, and look at the threads about what Dynamic Events were going to do for the genre. THAT is the comparison you should be making here. Looking at what DEs were supposed to do vs what they actually did.
Why do am I saying to compare it like that? Because at that time, you had the actual product that ANET developed, but the data, info and facts that anyone had access to, 1st had to go through marketing. Marketing will ALWAYS take a product and blow it up to be bigger than what it really is. Story Bricks is no exception.
If GW2 were still in Development and we were reading about what DE's are going to do for the genre based on what ANET told us back in 2010 and 2011, These threads comparing the 2 would be quite different.
except dynamic events ARE changing the genre? (not really) Storybricks is the next step and after storybricks who knows what we'll get. I'm sure blizzard has been working on their own version of this whole thing for their next MMO (titan?) as well. Innovation is a moving target... you never arrive.
That's not my point.
We've had a chance to kick the tires on DEs we've seen what they do vs what we were once told they would do and there is a big difference there. DE's are ok if you are in the area when they are triggered, and they are a breath of fresh air vs. the "kill 10 rats" quest.. BUT they in no way had a serious impact in the game or genre.. IMO.. I played GW2 to max level and quit, and why? Because all the end game zones were dead.. 70% of the zones were occupied by mobs with NO players actively defeating the DE's in those zones.. It still appears that most spend their end game time in instances.. (better rewards?)
It will be the same for Storybricks. Once it's out and we can see it for what it is, there will be a difference between the effective experience players have vs what we are now being told it will have.
That's just how marketing works. Yep.. Sell the sizzle, not the steak..
Except DE's from GW2 were delivered and performed exactly as promised, so your point is invalid. In YOUR opinion, not in mine.. Just because you built it up into some wildly out of control idea in your head doesn't mean they didn't deliver the feature as stated. If you think you're correct then please provide a statement, or video, or something from ANet devs that promised something with DE's that it didn't actually do. I'll be tickled to death if you could and prove me wrong.
Actually, it's been proven based on their own game play numbers.. End game zones are dead and void of players actively taking on dynamic events and beating the bosses.. and PvP realm battles aren't much better.. GW2 has gone thru the same cycle that all new games go thru.. Hype it up, sell a lot of copies, and then watch the player population drop.. I seldom log on to play GW2 for the same reasons why I gave up on Rift, SWTOR and others..BOREDOM!!!
A game based on self sustaining ai sound like utopia. Ai is limited to the rules set out for it to act on, and it may control some simple things such as supply and demand, factions, alliances, places of interest and so on. But ai can not create new content, ai can not invent a new race with new lore and new graphics, ai can not react to unforeseen events or behaviour, and so on.
if they think they can make a self evolving game through ai scripting, I think they are seriously underestimatinhow destructive and alternative seeking gamers are.. They(we) WILL break the system, it is just human nature.
So the only way emergent ai can work (and make the game interesting to play), is if controlled by a council of real humans who can counter, change, adjust the world and ui continuously. Adding content to the game is also important, because a game controlled by ai is not everchanging, players will figure out the ai and see through the illusion... Atleast that is what gamers have done the last 30 years, and there is no indication ai is about to become so advanced that a bunch of theorycrafters wont figure it out.
A game based on self sustaining ai sound like utopia. Ai is limited to the rules set out for it to act on, and it may control some simple things such as supply and demand, factions, alliances, places of interest and so on. But ai can not create new content, ai can not invent a new race with new lore and new graphics, ai can not react to unforeseen events or behaviour, and so on.
if they think they can make a self evolving game through ai scripting, I think they are seriously underestimatinhow destructive and alternative seeking gamers are.. They(we) WILL break the system, it is just human nature.
So the only way emergent ai can work (and make the game interesting to play), is if controlled by a council of real humans who can counter, change, adjust the world and ui continuously. Adding content to the game is also important, because a game controlled by ai is not everchanging, players will figure out the ai and see through the illusion... Atleast that is what gamers have done the last 30 years, and there is no indication ai is about to become so advanced that a bunch of theorycrafters wont figure it out.
Exactly.. When we speak of gamers and how they love to exploit code and programming, it takes me back to my SWG days.. Gamers love to use anything to their advantage until devs are forced to step in and nerf it or remove it.. The best example was player cites and faction scanners.. There were cities set up using "Medium" houses as walls, and the only way in and out of that city was through one opening.. That opening was often guarded by a convert faction scanner? So if it was a rebel city for example any imperial faction (covert) entering would be TEF'd for killing.. Then to make it even easier, was that all the city militia ware rebels.. They were able to use their militia status to KILL imps without risk.. (YES, militia were invulnerable).. Player cities often put up covert scanners next to the spaceports too.. just to set off alerts and more easy unsuspecting targets..
Or the other beauty that even I took part in.. In WoW, when Hunters acquired our high level "snake traps", it didn't take long to realize you could place a snake trap next to NPC's knowing they would be triggered to go off, then watch your snakes not only KILL the NPC but any low level players as well.. This was basically NON CONSENSUAL PvP.. Yes, Blizzard jumped in quick and fixed that.. LOL
Originally posted by Gdemami Here is how Storybrick scripting works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3b_3UGc7Es#t=100 It is essentially a quest builder. Many devs use something like that. CCP use similar tool to generate NPC missions.
The discussion went quite off the track so I repost this to show people how Storybricks actually works. It is regular scripted behaviour, just more chained.
People have once again unrealistic expectations.
Since that is "regular" scripted behavior, would you care to come up with an example of a game where the NPCs currently have the range of dynamic behavior and responses comparable to what's possible just in that video?
I've yet to run into a game where if I kill enough of the NPCs fast enough they pull up sticks and move their entire town to some random location.
**
Would like to point out that it doesn't matter how cool StoryBricks it, it really depends on what EQN does with the system as to whether or not it will be cool. That alpha video demonstrates a bit more functionality than SOE has talked about with their "Orc" examples.
Any game AI is possible to do what Storybricks is doing, because there is nothing new going on here, it is just same scripting all games are using.
I never denied that the scope is somewhat wider than in other games, I explicitely said that the conditional chain is larger than usual, however, it still does not result in what people are imagining here - it is still regular scripted behavior.
If you approach an NPC 10 in a row and ask same question, it will provide exactly same answer. The NPCs do not learn, do not evolve, they are not sentient.
And as you said, it ultimately boils down to implementation. It is entirely possible just only couple of NPCs will have this AI. It is entirely possible that at the end the impact of the AI on game world won't be as large due issues with world persistence, etc.
However, people need to get real with their expectatins, so far they are ridiculous.
But since it's "regular" scripting, something similar to what StoryBricks has demonstrated in their alpha video should have shown up in a game some place. At the very least in a single player game.
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples?
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of.
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. But not really.. This is where the scripted behavior comes in.. I avoid violent areas because I wish to live.. Technically the Orcs after being beaten time and time again should MOVE AWAY from humans because they fear them.. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples? So according to your logic, if I group up in the game frequently, my team will spend wasted time chasing down orcs that wish to avoid us, since we outnumber it.. I know I would.. I've played PvP many times, and when it's me against 3 others, I run.. Even a dog knows when it's time to turn and run (normally).. lol Storybricks might be complex, but it is still scripted..
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of. And we have yet to see ONE substantial fight sequence highlighting such awesomeness.. Seeing is believing..
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
And I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system has NOT YET proved itself to justify all the hype.. The system might not be great after all regardless who's game it is.. Storybricks might do well in a single player game, but may not do well in a MMO.. None of us know because Storybricks hasn't been used in any released game so far.. Is EQN their only customer?
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. But not really.. This is where the scripted behavior comes in.. I avoid violent areas because I wish to live.. Technically the Orcs after being beaten time and time again should MOVE AWAY from humans because they fear them.. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples? So according to your logic, if I group up in the game frequently, my team will spend wasted time chasing down orcs that wish to avoid us, since we outnumber it.. I know I would.. I've played PvP many times, and when it's me against 3 others, I run.. Even a dog knows when it's time to turn and run (normally).. lol Storybricks might be complex, but it is still scripted..
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of. And we have yet to see ONE substantial fight sequence highlighting such awesomeness.. Seeing is believing..
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
And I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system has NOT YET proved itself to justify all the hype.. The system might not be great after all regardless who's game it is.. Storybricks might do well in a single player game, but may not do well in a MMO.. None of us know because Storybricks hasn't been used in any released game so far.. Is EQN their only customer?
Your right, all we have seen is simulations. All we know is what they are shooting for, non-scripted AI. Sure they will use some scripted things for conversation but the AI and how the NPC interact with the world is a non-scripted sandbox of lets see what the NPC do when we set these rules. They are looking for an outcome that will be different from server to server. Will they pull it off? Well simulations look good so far. When will we know it works? Within the next few months as Landmark will be getting NPCs and the Storybricks tools. Players will be working with the same tools the devs have. No hype, just 100% hands on and unfiltered game play.
"can we have all the concepts that will express everything that people in this world care about, [this] was hard work it took months but now we have that..."
Had not seen that video, thanks for sharing, awesome watch. Fun time ahead, combat comes to Landmark today....yay!
Landmark combat is F-U-N!! you can swap weapons at anytime. The only way i can describe it as its EQ2 battleground with real time action. with the weapons they have now (not even talking about the gear and accessories they will add) its basic and simple and but there is strategy involved. It looks like a hit!
Comments
Evilized do you understand math and the concept of permutation ? Or does your education not go that far. This is just a set permutations that are programed and calculated based on a single decision. It's not that difficult to understand the key factor that leads to the next set of choices is the first choice. Whatever that is. It may be made the moment you decide to create your toon.This is why faction becomes important, it's your defining limit. A favorable faction/decision leads to a set of choices and vice versa. It a mathematical formula. In the end it still land you in a certain place. It's not infinite because the calculating power and space that would be needed to run and permutation with no limits would be unfathomable. ( that incidentally is called real life ) There is no computer available that could play what some people are suggesting. Fanboi's need to get a grip. It's a game and every event, action , reaction and response by and NPC is scripted. These are not sentient, aware and independent beings , no matter how much your fanboi fantasy mind would like them to be. It's nothing as dynamic as you suggest , that's a fantasy.
Redacted
I don't think people are over thinking this or "fanboying". Watching the video linked at the top of the page, near the end he says, it won't have to be scripted. Yes some will be, but majority won't be. The NPC will do it on it's own. I don't think it can get anymore clearer than that tbh and straight from the horses mouth
Now will this work in EQN is another story. Storybricks seems like a great bit of kit which i feel will a have very positive affect on MMOs if it works well.
Is it scripted? Of course, it's a software program. The thing that sets it apart, in theory
The order of importance of the bricks can and will change depending on the situation. Say a group of orcs have just spawned and are out in the wilderness. Their normal #1 objective is to seek out any gold they can find but before they do that they need to establish a camp so the orcs go around looking for the best piece of real estate for their set of needs.
The orcs now have their camp set up so it's time to start looking for sources of gold. The orcs find a road that has merchants traveling on it that carry gold so they start to rob them. This attracts the attention of some of the local towns once the merchants that escape report the robberies to the town guards. The town guard's #1 goal is to maintain peace and order in their sphere of influence so they head out along the road to kill the orcs and keep the merchants safe.
The orcs see the guards and the AI needs to make a choice - do the orcs have enough manpower to fend off the intruding guard and maintain their camp or do they need to pick up and move to a different, safer spot? Depending on the bricks the guard has as well as any other bricks in the area that may help influence the decision like climate, time of day, what race controls the area, etc, the orcs make a decision.
In this case, since it is getting colder and starting to snow and orcs dislike snow and prefer warmer weather and including the fact that guards are now patrolling the area interfering with their robberies, the orcs decide (based on the combination of bricks they have interacted with) to pick up camp and move on.
While all this is happening, maybe crime picked up back in the village because thieves saw that the guards had been diverted to the roads in order to take care of the orc problem, so the guards #1 priority (peace and justice) makes them move back to town to deal with the new #1 threat to their ward's lives and livelihood, the thieves.
When did I ever say faction didn't have any part in this? Of course faction has a role but faction is also just a tiny part of all the things that go into the system. According to the devs you can ruin your faction with whomever you'd like, just like you can raise you faction with whomever you'd like (yes, this was in EQ1 as well, oh my god! My Iksar SK was "ally" with Kelethin... so many dead orcs).
When did I ever allude to the NPCs being anywhere near sentient. Read what I typed again, if you're having trouble try sounding out the words aloud until you get it, it may be hard but I have faith in you. Story Bricks is a system based on layered variables that dictate (when they interact with each other) the actions taken by NPCs in the game world. These actions are (to the observer) random since there will be so many variables floating around and interacting with each other it will be impossible to predict everything that will happen. Yes, you will still get to know the habits of things, just like hunters can understand the habits of the animals they hunt or you understand how traffic works in a certain intersection, but there is the chance that some new factor will introduce itself and throw things out of wack, causing different reactions from the NPCs and potentially chaining on down the line to the opposite end of whatever in-game continent you are on.
All of this has been explained by devs over and over again, as well as numerous people in this thread. There's a lot of info linked in this thread that you can reference if you'd like to help you out, and I encourage it. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore.
Watch the Storybricks video I linked above, all about NPC actions is scripted. You can see the process of scripting there for yourself.
It indeed is scripting but there are other things going on as well. Also keep in mind that video was posted 2 years ago, before EQN was even announced and SoE is using a pretty heavily modified version of the original Story Bricks depicted in the video.
After watching these presentations I can see that a destructible world is probably needed to make storybricks successful and I think that they stated that in an interview.
If for example orcs attacks a farm and it is burned down to a ruin for every player to see it feels a lot more meaningful than the farm still being there after the attack.
The players ability to destroy terrain could however be a problem in these scenarios. Lets says that I adopt a merchant and make him really powerful. I do a lot of quests and he now has trading routes, guards and starts to build a wall around his estate. But some other players comes around and levels everything...
If bandits or a rebel army supported by players leveled it I could probably take it since this is part of a changing world but there will always be players going around leveling everything in a destructible world.
I guess that they have already thought about this since they talked about making player cities immune to player damage.
One options (there are probably better ones
) could be to let player damage heal but NPC damage doesn’t heal. This would let the griefing players make temporary changes in the world but they need the NPC:s help to make permanent changes. A grefing player would probably also be attacked on sight after a while by certain NPC:s or could get a bad reputation among other NPC:s, get smithed by gods etc.
Have anyone heard more about player destruction impacting the word?People have once again unrealistic expectations.
Since that is "regular" scripted behavior, would you care to come up with an example of a game where the NPCs currently have the range of dynamic behavior and responses comparable to what's possible just in that video?
I've yet to run into a game where if I kill enough of the NPCs fast enough they pull up sticks and move their entire town to some random location.
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Would like to point out that it doesn't matter how cool StoryBricks it, it really depends on what EQN does with the system as to whether or not it will be cool. That alpha video demonstrates a bit more functionality than SOE has talked about with their "Orc" examples.
Any game AI is possible to do what Storybricks is doing, because there is nothing new going on here, it is just same scripting all games are using.
I never denied that the scope is somewhat wider than in other games, I explicitely said that the conditional chain is larger than usual, however, it still does not result in what people are imagining here - it is still regular scripted behavior.
If you approach an NPC 10 in a row and ask same question, it will provide exactly same answer. The NPCs do not learn, do not evolve, they are not sentient.
And as you said, it ultimately boils down to implementation. It is entirely possible just only couple of NPCs will have this AI. It is entirely possible that at the end the impact of the AI on game world won't be as large due issues with world persistence, etc.
However, people need to get real with their expectatins, so far they are ridiculous.
It does not matter how much you modify it, it won't change how it works in core. The scripts might get more chained with increased computing power but that is about all.
I can guess that most of those modifications are towards imlementing the tech into their infrasructure and specific MMO environment.
That is a drawback of middleware, at the end it may get very costly, inefficient and underwhelming. Just like happened to BioWare with SWTOR and Hero engine.
The technical limitations are hard set.
Sadly, the only thing about EQN I cannot stand is the art-style ... just isn't pleasant to me. Looks like a Disney movie ...
People love disney movies. So that is a good thing. Anyways i am not the one to hung up on looks for me gameplay that matters.
Except DE's from GW2 were delivered and performed exactly as promised, so your point is invalid. Just because you built it up into some wildly out of control idea in your head doesn't mean they didn't deliver the feature as stated. If you think you're correct then please provide a statement, or video, or something from ANet devs that promised something with DE's that it didn't actually do. I'll be tickled to death if you could and prove me wrong.
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I partially agree.. I find the art style confusing.. When you take a glance at the world you are told it's more real then fantasy.. The ground textures, shadowing, water reflection, etc etc.. But then you look at some of the armor and characters and you are reminded you are playing a cartoon.. To me, they are in conflict with each other.. Now for my big complaint to what I have seen so far.. All the character models look like girlie momma's boys, even the dark elves.. The lion warrior was laughable at best.. Where are the ugly aggressive evil looks? Maybe I want to play a one eyed scared "DARK" elf that blends into shadows at night, will the character creation screen allow it? But I"ll wait and see.. The game is still years away from going live, so maybe they'll add in hard looking toons to offset the softer versions..
Actually, it's been proven based on their own game play numbers.. End game zones are dead and void of players actively taking on dynamic events and beating the bosses.. and PvP realm battles aren't much better.. GW2 has gone thru the same cycle that all new games go thru.. Hype it up, sell a lot of copies, and then watch the player population drop.. I seldom log on to play GW2 for the same reasons why I gave up on Rift, SWTOR and others..BOREDOM!!!
A game based on self sustaining ai sound like utopia. Ai is limited to the rules set out for it to act on, and it may control some simple things such as supply and demand, factions, alliances, places of interest and so on. But ai can not create new content, ai can not invent a new race with new lore and new graphics, ai can not react to unforeseen events or behaviour, and so on.
if they think they can make a self evolving game through ai scripting, I think they are seriously underestimatinhow destructive and alternative seeking gamers are.. They(we) WILL break the system, it is just human nature.
So the only way emergent ai can work (and make the game interesting to play), is if controlled by a council of real humans who can counter, change, adjust the world and ui continuously. Adding content to the game is also important, because a game controlled by ai is not everchanging, players will figure out the ai and see through the illusion... Atleast that is what gamers have done the last 30 years, and there is no indication ai is about to become so advanced that a bunch of theorycrafters wont figure it out.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Exactly.. When we speak of gamers and how they love to exploit code and programming, it takes me back to my SWG days.. Gamers love to use anything to their advantage until devs are forced to step in and nerf it or remove it.. The best example was player cites and faction scanners.. There were cities set up using "Medium" houses as walls, and the only way in and out of that city was through one opening.. That opening was often guarded by a convert faction scanner? So if it was a rebel city for example any imperial faction (covert) entering would be TEF'd for killing.. Then to make it even easier, was that all the city militia ware rebels.. They were able to use their militia status to KILL imps without risk.. (YES, militia were invulnerable).. Player cities often put up covert scanners next to the spaceports too.. just to set off alerts and more easy unsuspecting targets..
Or the other beauty that even I took part in.. In WoW, when Hunters acquired our high level "snake traps", it didn't take long to realize you could place a snake trap next to NPC's knowing they would be triggered to go off, then watch your snakes not only KILL the NPC but any low level players as well.. This was basically NON CONSENSUAL PvP.. Yes, Blizzard jumped in quick and fixed that.. LOL
But since it's "regular" scripting, something similar to what StoryBricks has demonstrated in their alpha video should have shown up in a game some place. At the very least in a single player game.
The NPCs do, in fact, change their behavior over time in response to what the players do. The first time a player sees the orcs in the "Orc" example, the orcs will try to kill the player. If they fail badly, or if the player talks to a guard who happens to be willing to investigate the orcs, the orc response will change from "fight" to "leave the area". The larger the group of orcs, the less likely they are to move away. Where is the game that will currently exhibit this most simplistic StoryBricks behavior? If StoryBricks is "regular" scripting and if any AI system is capable of doing what StoryBricks does, where are the real world examples?
The orc example is not something I've made up and it's not a "pie in the sky" dream. This is a concrete example from the developers. If people are going overboard in thinking what StoryBricks can do, you are going overboard in saying what StoryBricks cannot do. The two things don't magically balance out. Neither one gives an accurate representation of what the system is capable of.
I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system is only going to be as good as what the developers do with it. It doesn't matter how great the system sounds if SOE kacks it up.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And I do think we (and a couple other people) are in agreement that the system has NOT YET proved itself to justify all the hype.. The system might not be great after all regardless who's game it is.. Storybricks might do well in a single player game, but may not do well in a MMO.. None of us know because Storybricks hasn't been used in any released game so far.. Is EQN their only customer?
Hard to argue when you know you're wrong, isn't it? Read everything between pages 20 and 25 before you post anything else, Ryde.
Your right, all we have seen is simulations. All we know is what they are shooting for, non-scripted AI. Sure they will use some scripted things for conversation but the AI and how the NPC interact with the world is a non-scripted sandbox of lets see what the NPC do when we set these rules. They are looking for an outcome that will be different from server to server. Will they pull it off? Well simulations look good so far. When will we know it works? Within the next few months as Landmark will be getting NPCs and the Storybricks tools. Players will be working with the same tools the devs have. No hype, just 100% hands on and unfiltered game play.
Landmark combat is F-U-N!! you can swap weapons at anytime. The only way i can describe it as its EQ2 battleground with real time action. with the weapons they have now (not even talking about the gear and accessories they will add) its basic and simple and but there is strategy involved. It looks like a hit!