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What made EQ, "EQ" and how could EQN follow suit?

AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon

Was it the combat system?

 

Was it the artstyle?

 

Was it the vast world?

 

The need for friends?

 

EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today.  While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?

 

What made EverQuest, EverQuest?

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Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,580Member Uncommon
    It was a virtual world, not a game.

    The players were not heros or chosen ones.

    All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world.

    The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

  • syriinxsyriinx New York, NYPosts: 1,063Member Uncommon


    -Meaningful character progression outside of a couple weeks/months.  New games are designed so the endgame is the real game, so leveling is super fast.  In addition, once you get their your character progression is over.  Gear only from then out.  In EQ leveling was a true journey that took months, even years.  And with Luclin, max level didn't mean you were done progressing, AAs made it so everything you did was still progressing your character.

    -The class system and group mechanics.  Many people think Trinity is tank/heals/dps.  This is false, the real holy trinity was warrior, cleric, enchanter.  You needed more than a tank and healer for EQ, and dps was just assumed.  However, where EQ was even better was you didn't necessarily need the 'holy trinity'.  No enchanter?  Fine, got a bard or monk to pull singles.  You might still want slows, but a shaman could do that, sometimes even a beastlord.  Hell my ranger every once in a while whipped out his epic to slow mobs.  No tank?  maybe a kite group.  Different classes had different ways to shine.  While my Ranger couldn't pull indoors, outdoors he was a pretty effective puller if no bard or monk was around.  If an add showed up with no mezzer, my Ranger could also root it or pull it off a healer.  I don't really get this sort of thing from newer games, especially since many of them allow you to completely change your character to fit the group, a s opposed to building the group around your abilities.

    -the game world.  Its places, its lore, its character.   Some games do ok with this, but there are far too many Rifts out there with a very generic world with boring, underdeveloped races. 

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious

    Was it the combat system?

     

    Was it the artstyle?

     

    Was it the vast world?

     

    The need for friends?

     

    EverQuest had more than a few features to set it apart even today.  While it's obvious that EQN has many more "new" features what at its core does it need to capture the feeling of its predecessors? Is it possible to create an experience both vets of the original franchise and new players to the genre can enjoy along with those all along the spectrum?

     

    What made EverQuest, EverQuest?

     

    The thing that made EQ truly addictive was the challenge level, and the way that the load was spread across the players. This was a game that was difficult, and the way to overcome that difficulty was to work with other players. Sure, it had a level grind, gear grind, and RL learning curve, but all of those were trivial in comparison to its demands for social interaction. The (simple) solution for almost every problem, was another human.

     

    I don't see this as an option for EQ Next, as the things that made EQ what it is, are also what made it a niche game.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

     

    Agreed on all accounts and the one aspect that I think will not be in EQN is the slower pacing.  In fact, EQN looks to have faster combat that most MMOs right now.  To offset this would be built in VoIP systems including SoEMote but I know some people don't like VoIP as it ruins immersion.

     

    EQN may be a step forward regarding the world and NPC factions.  The StoryBricks video, thought very hard to hear at times, would make those favoring NPC factions and their effects very excited.  Dave said they would redo that panel with more information but no idea when ("Soon" tm).

     

    The "Hero Effect" may be weird in EQN.  While each player may have their own story it's yet to be seen how much of an impact one player alone can have at any one point.  Some of the larger objectives, such as a faction taking over a "swatch" of area, shown in the SB video looked to be over time.  The thing I do like that we've been told is that the larger world effects will take many players over time to accomplish and in some cases, like the faction struggles, will be slightly out of our control.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by DMKano
    It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

     

    Agreed on all accounts and the one aspect that I think will not be in EQN is the slower pacing.  In fact, EQN looks to have faster combat that most MMOs right now. 

    The devs have already stated that the first iteration of combat is a little too fast so it will change. How much it will change relies upon feedback from Landmark and the player reasons for change.

  • BraindomeBraindome Posts: 769Member Uncommon

    Pretty much everything you listed but in general if I had to boil it down I would mainly say it was the vast world and traversing it prior to the implementation of fast travel.

    It was a journey, quite a journey and meeting someone when you were in dire need of help in the middle of nowhere created an amazing sense of adventure. Sometimes you would logout simply out of frustration "also the need to go to work" only to login on the weekends at about midnight or so and find out that some players were ACTUALLY AROUND the area you were having troubles at and joining in on the fun and having a grand adventure.......nothing can compare to that feeling.....nothing.

    In this day of instant gratification that magic has been lost and I long for the day a developer creates a vast world that has players that are both patient and vigilant, though when you offer the players "fast travel"  and "quick progression" they will use it and you will lose that other playerbase, it's going to take a developer to focus on that type of player for it to be successful and in turn it will bring other types of players.

    You can't say "well just play it the other way and don't use fast travel", cause everyone else does and the immersion is lost and that old way doesn't exist cause if fast travel is there players will use it. The game needs to be designed to be vast and about the journey and exploration for the game to retain a hardcore player base and NOT change the formula!

    There is nothing saying that a game couldn't be created this way in this day and be made popular again with next gen graphics and combat revisions. It just needs to happen and hopefully it will before I croak.

    Hell, I would still play EQ to this day if they hadn't dumbed-down EVERYTHING! I can say that for a FACT!

     

     

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,634Member Uncommon

    EQN isn't going to follow suit.

     

    Enjoy your theoretical discussion.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,858Member Uncommon

    I'm fairly certain SOE has moved on from the playerbase that made EQ what it was.  There's just not enough of them to support a new MMO in the quantity they'd like.  No, they're going after the MOBA crowd and trying to attract new and younger fans.

    I obviously don't agree with this direction but it makes financial sense. 

  • ReaperJodaReaperJoda joliet, ILPosts: 73Member Uncommon
    Did you ever play eq?? The way the are building eqn is nothing like eq...it is shaming the eq brand name.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    EQN isn't going to follow suit.

     

    Enjoy your theoretical discussion.

     

    That's why I started this thread as it has already evolved into more than just a theoretical discussion.  When I see an opinion like yours I immediately ask myself why someone feels like this.  EverQuest is a collection of features and lore set into a world, just like any other MMO.  It was the specifics of its features and the world that gave EQ a certain feeling to those who did, and may still, play.

     

    EQN will not be an EQ clone but that doesn't mean the overall play of its feature set will be much different in spirit.  Already I've seen equivalents and even improvements in the answers listed in this thread.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,634Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    EQN isn't going to follow suit.

     

    Enjoy your theoretical discussion.

     

    That's why I started this thread as it has already evolved into more than just a theoretical discussion.  When I see an opinion like yours I immediately ask myself why someone feels like this.  EverQuest is a collection of features and lore set into a world, just like any other MMO.  It was the specifics of its features and the world that gave EQ a certain feeling to those who did, and may still, play.

     

    EQN will not be an EQ clone but that doesn't mean the overall play of its feature set will be much different in spirit.  Already I've seen equivalents and even improvements in the answers listed in this thread.

    Excuse me?  You have seen improvements?  Where?

     

    Nothing discussed in this thread will have any bearing on the game itself.   What are you talking about?

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReaperJoda
    Did you ever play eq?? The way the are building eqn is nothing like eq...it is shaming the eq brand name.

     

    I did play it and enjoyed it very much.  We all can take something away from EQ in what we liked but things like the vast, explorable world, meaningful factions and focus on CC are being shown in EQN.  In some cases taken farther.  What things do you think are missing from what we know about EQN that make it nothing like EQ?

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    EQN isn't going to follow suit.

     

    Enjoy your theoretical discussion.

     

    That's why I started this thread as it has already evolved into more than just a theoretical discussion.  When I see an opinion like yours I immediately ask myself why someone feels like this.  EverQuest is a collection of features and lore set into a world, just like any other MMO.  It was the specifics of its features and the world that gave EQ a certain feeling to those who did, and may still, play.

     

    EQN will not be an EQ clone but that doesn't mean the overall play of its feature set will be much different in spirit.  Already I've seen equivalents and even improvements in the answers listed in this thread.

    Excuse me?  You have seen improvements?  Where?

     

    Nothing discussed in this thread will have any bearing on the game itself.   What are you talking about?

     

    An AI system that has NPC factions changing areas of the world via player action pressures? The ability to gain not only classes but carry influence with you that make other NPCs act differently towards you based upon your actions? A world that is truly and realistically three dimensional?

     

    The reason that I said the discussion was not just theoretical is because enough has been shown or talked about EQN to make comparisons and contrasts.  I'm not expecting the game to change because of this thread of course.

  • warriorpoet7warriorpoet7 Riverside, CAPosts: 40Member
    Originally posted by DMKano
    It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

    Exactly this ... huge world and a pace where you could take two hours to do something and it was enough. Now, people wanna do 20 cheap quests in an hour or they get bored. 

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,634Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    EQN isn't going to follow suit.

     

    Enjoy your theoretical discussion.

     

    That's why I started this thread as it has already evolved into more than just a theoretical discussion.  When I see an opinion like yours I immediately ask myself why someone feels like this.  EverQuest is a collection of features and lore set into a world, just like any other MMO.  It was the specifics of its features and the world that gave EQ a certain feeling to those who did, and may still, play.

     

    EQN will not be an EQ clone but that doesn't mean the overall play of its feature set will be much different in spirit.  Already I've seen equivalents and even improvements in the answers listed in this thread.

    Excuse me?  You have seen improvements?  Where?

     

    Nothing discussed in this thread will have any bearing on the game itself.   What are you talking about?

     

    An AI system that has NPC factions changing areas of the world via player action pressures? The ability to gain not only classes but carry influence with you that make other NPCs act differently towards you based upon your actions? A world that is truly and realistically three dimensional?

     

    The reason that I said the discussion was not just theoretical is because enough has been shown or talked about EQN to make comparisons and contrasts.  I'm not expecting the game to change because of this thread of course.

    Well here is my theory and the last I will say on this matter.

     

    This will all lead to someone saying.....why don't we just update EQ and call it EQNext?

     

    End of discussion.    

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Thank you to those that have constructively answered the question. I have to admit I agree with most, if not all, of them. My main concern so far, echoed by Superman0X is the need for difficult content. I don't know if this can be scaled by NPC faction influence level or not but having a gradient of solo through raid difficulties would add spice to a virtual world.

    Great responses so far.
  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common

    1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

    2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

    3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

    4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

    5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

  • kellian1kellian1 Phillipsburg, NJPosts: 233Member Uncommon

    I think the days of games like EQ are dead and gone. EQ had slower leveling, bad stuff happened when you died and the sense of community was rather strong. It also did not subscribe to the idea where the players in the game > the world they played in. Players in that game were not, for lack of a better term, superheros. They were adventurers who often had to rely on one another to get the job done. The world was dangerous and it wasn't there just to level the payers and give out loot.

    Modern MMO's for better or worse (depending on where you fall) do not, and will not go back to that. The idea now is to reach the largest group of players you can, and to that end, you have to have a game accessible to the largest number of people even if it means compromising in other areas. I don't like it, but I'm also a realist. The reality is many of us (at least in my circle) couldn't devote nearly the time we used to on games like EQ, so it's a double edges sword. It's great that leveling is a little faster in todays MMO world, but that also seems to affect every other part of the game.

    So EQnext might be able to get that sense of community, but probably won't hit any of the other points. The truth is, no modern MMO is going to go back there again, so it's not a knock on EQnext, it's just that the genre seems to have moved on from that style of gameplay and game (in my view),

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,619Member Uncommon
    Just grinding mobs endlessly or just sitting around talking waiting for something to spawn. That's all there is to it. If a game exactly the same got made today no one would play it. It's cause you had to talk to other people and if you were an ass hat then it would get around to everyone on the server and you'll have a harder time in the game.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

    Yup, good death penalties need to be in place to discourage stupid behavior.  But there is balance to be had.  If you create too harsh of death penalties, you discourage participation in dangerous activities.  So you can't get stupid with the penalties either.  I think EQ was a good middle ground, where death hurt a little bit, but wasn't as stupid as some older games like LoK, where death meant:

    -Mobs/Players would loot every single item off your body.

    -If you were high level, you would lose weeks or even months of skill experience.

    -You were then sent to the underworld as a spirit and had to complete 30-45 minutes of painful quests to get your organs back before you were allowed to return to the normal game world.

    Good death penalties make death something to be avoided, but aren't so harsh that they make everyone hide from challenge.

    2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

    -This is one thing I hate in MMOs and one of the major reason's I'm excited for EQN.  Horizontal progression and ever-changing environment means that the game is going to be truly free-roaming.  No more following !'s or ?'s around to different "zones" depending on your level.  A true adventure experience, but accomplished without resorting to archaic original EQ design in 2014.

    3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

    -Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  It seems they're getting back to the original trilogy (Tank,Healer,CC), and putting a lot of emphasis on group play without being detrimental to players who want to solo play for whatever reason (anti-social, not enough time today, etc).  Multiclassing will allow players to adapt to different group make ups and horizontal progression will encourage impromptu grouping with people you meet while adventuring since there won't be gear/level barriers.  Very exciting.

    4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

    -I disagree here.  You don't need forced downtime to get socialization.  EQN Horizontal progression will get people in more of a social mood to start with since anyone can basically group with anyone they meet in game.  Further more EQN will be using PS2's in game VOIP system.  So any random player can instantly local voice chat with other players, and members that join your group will have instant access to VOIP with everyone else in the group without having to go through extra steps to skype or set up vent/TS3/etc.  This will allow for more socialization, possibly even more than original EQ, without resorting to boring and unnecessary design flaws like EQ's down time mechanics.  Chat and have fun while playing the game, not while you're waiting to play the game as your Mana Bar crawls forward.

    5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

    -Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  They've already stated there would be a magnitude of different cultural cities, and even cooler that many of them will be a part of rallying call events.  So not only will there be all these great and interesting places to visit, but you'll also get a huge amount of story and lore tied into each one.  Also, horizontal progression, again, making traveling and staying at different cities viable and fun to do.  You won't be forced to simply use whatever city is closest to the "end game" content, since the entire world will be end game and you can free roam how you want.

    One thing I'm curious is how they will handle starting areas.  On one hand I liked having different starting areas. Placed you could call home based on your race, that had meaning and lore behind it.  But at the same time I don't want to log into an empty town because most of the player base is spread across 10 other, more popular, cities. We'll have to see how they handle this.

    To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ?  The adventure would be my answer.  Which is why I'm excited for EQN.  They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago.

    Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world.  Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely.  Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun.  Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.

    When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience.  Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out.  Absolutely terrible.

    EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense.  People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

    Yup, good death penalties need to be in place to discourage stupid behavior.  But there is balance to be had.  If you create too harsh of death penalties, you discourage participation in dangerous activities.  So you can't get stupid with the penalties either.  I think EQ was a good middle ground, where death hurt a little bit, but wasn't as stupid as some older games like LoK, where death meant:

    -Mobs/Players would loot every single item off your body.

    -If you were high level, you would lose weeks or even months of skill experience.

    -You were then sent to the underworld as a spirit and had to complete 30-45 minutes of painful quests to get your organs back before you were allowed to return to the normal game world.

    Good death penalties make death something to be avoided, but aren't so harsh that they make everyone hide from challenge.

    2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

    -This is one thing I hate in MMOs and one of the major reason's I'm excited for EQN.  Horizontal progression and ever-changing environment means that the game is going to be truly free-roaming.  No more following !'s or ?'s around to different "zones" depending on your level.  A true adventure experience, but accomplished without resorting to archaic original EQ design in 2014.  YOU do realize there are tier walls in place, a new player will NOT be allowed to see 100% of the world on day 1..  They'll need to earn those tier progressions,, or buy them from the cash shop?  /shrug..

    3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

    -Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  It seems they're getting back to the original trilogy (Tank,Healer,CC), and putting a lot of emphasis on group play without being detrimental to players who want to solo play for whatever reason (anti-social, not enough time today, etc).  Multiclassing will allow players to adapt to different group make ups and horizontal progression will encourage impromptu grouping with people you meet while adventuring since there won't be gear/level barriers.  Very exciting. No details on this yet..  In EQ, there were just some encounters that required group play.. PERIOD.. It is my assumption that EQN will allow ALL SOLO play.. So where does grouping become required?  Raiding Crushbone maybe? However in the rest of the open world, when I come across 4 goblins, I kill them all easily.. Grouping up means little at this point.. Will encounters scale to size of players in a given area like they do in GW2 dynamic events.. ??  I have not heard anything about that..

    4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

    -I disagree here.  You don't need forced downtime to get socialization.  EQN Horizontal progression will get people in more of a social mood to start with since anyone can basically group with anyone they meet in game.  Further more EQN will be using PS2's in game VOIP system.  So any random player can instantly local voice chat with other players, and members that join your group will have instant access to VOIP with everyone else in the group without having to go through extra steps to skype or set up vent/TS3/etc.  This will allow for more socialization, possibly even more than original EQ, without resorting to boring and unnecessary design flaws like EQ's down time mechanics.  Chat and have fun while playing the game, not while you're waiting to play the game as your Mana Bar crawls forward.

    5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

    -Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  They've already stated there would be a magnitude of different cultural cities, and even cooler that many of them will be a part of rallying call events.  So not only will there be all these great and interesting places to visit, but you'll also get a huge amount of story and lore tied into each one.  Also, horizontal progression, again, making traveling and staying at different cities viable and fun to do.  You won't be forced to simply use whatever city is closest to the "end game" content, since the entire world will be end game and you can free roam how you want.

    One thing I'm curious is how they will handle starting areas.  On one hand I liked having different starting areas. Placed you could call home based on your race, that had meaning and lore behind it.  But at the same time I don't want to log into an empty town because most of the player base is spread across 10 other, more popular, cities. We'll have to see how they handle this.

    This is an issue that hasn't been talked about, and it should be.. People keep talking about rallying calls..  That is all great for the people that start playing on Day 1, but what about the new players a year after launch?  They'll miss out on ALL the rallying calls.. Or do they plan to create a new city every 2 months?   But then you run into your issue that many have had for years and that is empty cities..   The more cities you have, the more deserted the world becomes..  This is why Blizzard got away from factional cities (Horde and Alliance) and started sharing the same hub..  It made the game look busier.. 

    To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ?  The adventure would be my answer.  Which is why I'm excited for EQN.  They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago. Not for me..  What made EQ .. EQ? was both adventuring choices of multiple starting locations and paths to progress.. but also CLASS DEFINING game play..  I have yet to find a class as fulfilling and as fun to play as my EQ druid.. 

    Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world.  Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely.  Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun.  Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.

    When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience.  Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out.  Absolutely terrible. Agreed farming gear like doing dungeons sucked.. BUT, what does EQN have in place?  Crafting?  So will their be any barriers to keep a new player on day one in making the world's best crafted sword (tier 5)? I have yet to hear or see anything in detail about crafting?  Will it be as robust as SWG, or just some lame hobby like WoW?

    EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense.  People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.

         I suggest wait and see what really is launched and HOW is unfolds..  I have yet to ever see a product and service ever meet the hype the marketing promoted.. 

  • strykr619strykr619 San Diego, CAPosts: 144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

    This sir was the best answer...

    May I also add that its itemization was so much more superior then most games now... ITEMS MEANT SOMETHING.  Blade of Carnage, Scepter of Destruction, Rubicite Breastplate (warrior bp with clicky invis) where UNIQUE! 

    Upgrades to these items didn't just come in some "content patch" and made them invalid.... 

    Single most memorable quest (next to weapon epics) was the Eye Patch of Plunder quest. Took a lot of time to finish but the reward WAS WORTH IT and was valuable for a LONG TIME. 

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Gallus85
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    1.  Consequences.  If a player played like an idiot (say zerging like in some of these WOW clones), they felt the pain.

    Yup, good death penalties need to be in place to discourage stupid behavior.  But there is balance to be had.  If you create too harsh of death penalties, you discourage participation in dangerous activities.  So you can't get stupid with the penalties either.  I think EQ was a good middle ground, where death hurt a little bit, but wasn't as stupid as some older games like LoK, where death meant:

    -Mobs/Players would loot every single item off your body.

    -If you were high level, you would lose weeks or even months of skill experience.

    -You were then sent to the underworld as a spirit and had to complete 30-45 minutes of painful quests to get your organs back before you were allowed to return to the normal game world.

    Good death penalties make death something to be avoided, but aren't so harsh that they make everyone hide from challenge.

    2.  Freedom to explore.  No compulsion to follow some breadcrumb trail or to be a slave to a quest hub.

    -This is one thing I hate in MMOs and one of the major reason's I'm excited for EQN.  Horizontal progression and ever-changing environment means that the game is going to be truly free-roaming.  No more following !'s or ?'s around to different "zones" depending on your level.  A true adventure experience, but accomplished without resorting to archaic original EQ design in 2014.  YOU do realize there are tier walls in place, a new player will NOT be allowed to see 100% of the world on day 1..  They'll need to earn those tier progressions,, or buy them from the cash shop?  /shrug..

    The vertical progression has already been stated to be extremely small and won't be raised.  Casual players will cap "tier 5" for a class only after a few days or a week or two at most.  At that point the entire world is open up to them.  This is done to give a very free roaming feel to the game, and executed in such a way where tier 1 is still a threat to tier 5 players.  There won't be any "graying out" mobs in EQN.

    3.  Interdependency with other players.  Sure, you could go it alone, but it was safer in groups, as it should be.

    -Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  It seems they're getting back to the original trilogy (Tank,Healer,CC), and putting a lot of emphasis on group play without being detrimental to players who want to solo play for whatever reason (anti-social, not enough time today, etc).  Multiclassing will allow players to adapt to different group make ups and horizontal progression will encourage impromptu grouping with people you meet while adventuring since there won't be gear/level barriers.  Very exciting. No details on this yet..  In EQ, there were just some encounters that required group play.. PERIOD.. It is my assumption that EQN will allow ALL SOLO play.. So where does grouping become required?  Raiding Crushbone maybe? However in the rest of the open world, when I come across 4 goblins, I kill them all easily.. Grouping up means little at this point.. Will encounters scale to size of players in a given area like they do in GW2 dynamic events.. ??  I have not heard anything about that..

    There has been a huge amount of details on this.  They've already stated that the game is horizontal in progression and that difficulty of mobs will range mostly by how many people are required to take on the mobs.  Some areas will be fine to solo, some areas will require a group and some areas/events will require multiple groups.  Also, because of the emergent AI system, a solo area may end up becoming a raid-difficulty area.  A group-centric area may be cleaned out and become safe for soloing in the future, then turn into a raid area and then turn into a friendly NPC merchant town.  But they've been very clear that there will be plenty of content in the game that ranges from solo to multigroup and everything in between.

    4.  Downtime.  This is where folks who grouped would start to talk and form bonds of camaraderie.

    -I disagree here.  You don't need forced downtime to get socialization.  EQN Horizontal progression will get people in more of a social mood to start with since anyone can basically group with anyone they meet in game.  Further more EQN will be using PS2's in game VOIP system.  So any random player can instantly local voice chat with other players, and members that join your group will have instant access to VOIP with everyone else in the group without having to go through extra steps to skype or set up vent/TS3/etc.  This will allow for more socialization, possibly even more than original EQ, without resorting to boring and unnecessary design flaws like EQ's down time mechanics.  Chat and have fun while playing the game, not while you're waiting to play the game as your Mana Bar crawls forward.

    5.  A world.  Norrath was set up with cultural cities and zones and other places.  Rarely did you go through a city zone once; there were always reasons to come back.  It was a shared community environment.

    -Another reason I'm excited for EQN.  They've already stated there would be a magnitude of different cultural cities, and even cooler that many of them will be a part of rallying call events.  So not only will there be all these great and interesting places to visit, but you'll also get a huge amount of story and lore tied into each one.  Also, horizontal progression, again, making traveling and staying at different cities viable and fun to do.  You won't be forced to simply use whatever city is closest to the "end game" content, since the entire world will be end game and you can free roam how you want.

    One thing I'm curious is how they will handle starting areas.  On one hand I liked having different starting areas. Placed you could call home based on your race, that had meaning and lore behind it.  But at the same time I don't want to log into an empty town because most of the player base is spread across 10 other, more popular, cities. We'll have to see how they handle this.

    This is an issue that hasn't been talked about, and it should be.. People keep talking about rallying calls..  That is all great for the people that start playing on Day 1, but what about the new players a year after launch?  They'll miss out on ALL the rallying calls.. Or do they plan to create a new city every 2 months?   But then you run into your issue that many have had for years and that is empty cities..   The more cities you have, the more deserted the world becomes..  This is why Blizzard got away from factional cities (Horde and Alliance) and started sharing the same hub..  It made the game look busier.. 

    This has been talked to death already, please go on youtube and watch dev panels, or read reddit. Rallying calls are one time events that have a permanent effect on the world.  Yes you will miss out on that rallying call if you join late or don't play during it, but they will constantly be doing rallying calls throughout the life of the game and not every rallying call has to do with "adding cities".  It could be for opening up a dungeon, or fighting off a horde of dragons that results in a field being covered with dragon bones/corposes at the end.  It can be anything they want and rallying call is not a synonym for "creating a perma city".  

    Also, EQN is horizontal progression.  So you're not really going to have this sort of "central hub" city.  This is an effect of vertical progression.  People will cling to the city that's closest to their "end game zone".  EQN is horizontal progression with a ton of different events happening all over an ever-changing world, all of which is viable content for all players.  This will result in a much more even distribution of players in all parts of the world over many different towns and cities.

    To answer a previous question, what made EQ... EQ?  The adventure would be my answer.  Which is why I'm excited for EQN.  They're clearly bringing back that sense of adventure and a vast world to explore and be a part with, without resorting to cloning tired mechanics and elements from over a decade ago. Not for me..  What made EQ .. EQ? was both adventuring choices of multiple starting locations and paths to progress.. but also CLASS DEFINING game play..  I have yet to find a class as fulfilling and as fun to play as my EQ druid.. 

    Welcome to the future.  Horizontal progression will give you the most freedom of paths you've ever had.  And they already stated that EQN's character building will allow for all types of different builds and roles.  Your class won't define your game play, but how you build your character will.  

    Horizontal progression and emergent AI, with proceedurly generated content is going to really appeal to people who want to play a real RPG that focuses on adventuring in a living world.  Gone will be those silly level and gear barriers preventing people from socializing and traveling around the world freely.  Heroic movements will make on foot travel actually fun.  Horizontal progression will make free-roaming travel an actual interesting and rewording part of the game.

    When it comes right down to it, EQN is the only game that's even attempted at giving us a real RPG adventure experience.  Everything else over the past 10 years have been nothing more than vertical progression, zone-hoping, quest hub chasers where everyone just wants to race to "end game" and farm retarded raid events over and over again just so you can farm gear, so that you can be ready to farm the next toughest raid event when the next expansion comes out.  Absolutely terrible. Agreed farming gear like doing dungeons sucked.. BUT, what does EQN have in place?  Crafting?  So will their be any barriers to keep a new player on day one in making the world's best crafted sword (tier 5)? I have yet to hear or see anything in detail about crafting?  Will it be as robust as SWG, or just some lame hobby like WoW?

    Gear will drop and gear will be crafted.  However, gear in EQN is not about "better".  It's about customization.  Their gear system will have things like "Lightning skills cost less manage to activate".  Or "When you use a physical attack, gain +10% shield."  The higher tiers won't be "better", but they will be more specialized.  A tier 1 piece of gear might be like "+5% damage boost to attacks".  But a Tier 3 piece might be like "+8% damage boost after you perform a movement skill" and a tier 5 piece of gear might be something like "+10% to a lightning based skill cast after a movement skill". 

    This will give you the freedom to craft or find gear that fits well with your build and you're not relegated to just wearing the piece of gear that has the most +stats on it.

    Apparently crafting is going to play a major part in the game because of these factors as well.  A skilled crafter will be able to make very custom pieces of gear, and able to craft to order.  A player wants a Martial-bonus weapon that has an elvish style look with a +fire mod on it?  Well there might be something close to that in the game, but it could be hard to find given all the varieties of gear.  So having it crafted might be a more sure-fire way to get the item.

    The issue with crafting in a lot of games is that the "best" gear is almost always dropped from "raid mobs".  In EQN, gear is about customization for your build, and style.  So crafted gear will be just as viable as dropped gear.  This will make crafting something worth while, and not just a side-thought.

    EQN is the mnost fascinating looking MMO in production specifically because it's not doing the same old tired nonsense.  People who can't see this are blind, or simply not paying attention.

         I suggest wait and see what really is launched and HOW is unfolds..  I have yet to ever see a product and service ever meet the hype the marketing promoted.. 

    Yes, games live up to the hype all the time.  Especially when you don't use a wild imagination and extrapolate on features they advertise.  My advice to you is to watch more videos and read reddit.  You seem to be very confused on what a lot of these features mean and you seem to not even know about all the features the game will have.

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Winter Park, FLPosts: 1,092Member
    Originally posted by strykr619
    Originally posted by DMKano
    It was a virtual world, not a game. The players were not heros or chosen ones. All NPCs had factions which made them a part of the virtual world. The pacing was about 20 times slower than today's games which allowed players to socialize a lot.

    This sir was the best answer...

    May I also add that its itemization was so much more superior then most games now... ITEMS MEANT SOMETHING.  Blade of Carnage, Scepter of Destruction, Rubicite Breastplate (warrior bp with clicky invis) where UNIQUE! 

    Upgrades to these items didn't just come in some "content patch" and made them invalid.... 

    Single most memorable quest (next to weapon epics) was the Eye Patch of Plunder quest. Took a lot of time to finish but the reward WAS WORTH IT and was valuable for a LONG TIME. 

    This is another great reason why I'm loving how EQN's devs are approaching character progression and gear.  Gear you earn will always be useful because it's about customization.  Different, not "better".  You mention some items that were nice to keep for a long time, but you forget that there were hundreds, thousands of gear pieces that were made trivial after expansions were released.  Plane of Fear gear was great and some pieces could last even as Kunark kicked off, but most of it was outdated.  Then Velious came along and faction gear was magnitudes better than anything from original EQ / Kunark.... etc etc.

    So EQ had some* pieces that lasted, but a lot of them didn't.  This is why EQN is the better approach to getting gear.  It won't be stat sticks.  It will have effects that benefit certain classes / builds better than others. It's about customization and character building.  Not +stat treadmills that make old items irrelevant.  

    Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Regarding the tiers:

    Unless there has been more recent information Dave mentioned that gearing to the next "tier" would take "a week to a few weeks" to gain, presumably taking longer and you went up in tiers. With five tiers that's a minimum 5 weeks, maximum 15 weeks to be "max" for a single class. This of course doesn't take into account specializing your gear to a certain play style within a class.

    This is good IMO considering one can gain up to 40 classes at launch as you play and achieve/earn them. Those only wanting to play a single class alone may be relegated to gaining more classes for their secondary abilities as a method of progression (if they don't need different gear to accommodate different secondary abilities). If that's the case, how long would it take to earn those classes?

    Someone who wants to play a handful or all of the classes would have a much longer consumption time. Lets group the classes into presumably four "archetypes" with each having gear (cloth, leather, chain, plate). That's still 20 weeks minimum, 60 weeks maximum just in acquiring top tier gear. This again doesn't take into account getting gear that has the effects you want for the way you want to play a particular class.

    This is important because EQ had a very long progression path and though it was done with one single class/build it gave you a sense of identity with your character. I think this can also be the case with EQN though this time the classes and roles may change but the core character stays the same.
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