What is a Living Breathing World MMO? Any examples of one of these MMOs talked about here?

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    Xzen said:
    Originally posted by fardreamer
    vanilla ultima online.

    +1 You nailed it.


    It didn't have a very long life though did it.

    How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
    UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up..
      There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ... 

      And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically)  Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
    That's not what I'm talking about. Fardreamer said "vanilla ultima online" and Xzen +1'd. I pointed out that the vanilla living world that was UO didn't last that long before it changed.

    One of the loudest complaints from the old school mmo vets is that these first gen games are trashy shadows of their former selves. Is that not true?

    The OP asked for current examples. Someone pointed out a past example. Lots of people pointed out past examples. Do the current games fit the bill and qualify or don't they?

    More older (first gen) games closed than survived. A handful of titles doesn't prove the design point. A lot of first gen designs were crude and unpopular. Turns out fixing and improving on them is hard because we all like different things.
    Each one of those games is currently available and provides more of a Living Breathing World than any other games avavilble in there current and former versions ..

      AC closed this year , aside from that All the first Gen games i listed are availble ...Which are all the closed ones , and im not implying small unknown Titles ..

     UO,Everquest,AO,DAOC ,Runescape and AC These are the first gen titles of any note all but AC are there to play ..
    Quite some assertions in that post and some I agree with. The people that consider the vanilla experience the only true or best living world experience don't agree with us. Thus, I responded that their view of what makes a living world was very short lived.

    The other thing that baffles me is early mmos weren't often, if ever, commonly referred to or described as living worlds. I don't think they were. I remember MMO gamers being interested in quality online communities not living world simulations. If "living worlds" were really in demand wouldn't there be more of them?

    So only the titles on your list are of any note... to you. I think newer games are better and have more to offer. If they were really that good compared to current offerings then people would play those instead wouldn't they.
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  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,026
    edited September 9
    Torval said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    Xzen said:
    Originally posted by fardreamer
    vanilla ultima online.

    +1 You nailed it.


    It didn't have a very long life though did it.

    How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
    UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up..
      There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ... 

      And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically)  Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
    That's not what I'm talking about. Fardreamer said "vanilla ultima online" and Xzen +1'd. I pointed out that the vanilla living world that was UO didn't last that long before it changed.

    One of the loudest complaints from the old school mmo vets is that these first gen games are trashy shadows of their former selves. Is that not true?

    The OP asked for current examples. Someone pointed out a past example. Lots of people pointed out past examples. Do the current games fit the bill and qualify or don't they?

    More older (first gen) games closed than survived. A handful of titles doesn't prove the design point. A lot of first gen designs were crude and unpopular. Turns out fixing and improving on them is hard because we all like different things.
    Each one of those games is currently available and provides more of a Living Breathing World than any other games avavilble in there current and former versions ..

      AC closed this year , aside from that All the first Gen games i listed are availble ...Which are all the closed ones , and im not implying small unknown Titles ..

     UO,Everquest,AO,DAOC ,Runescape and AC These are the first gen titles of any note all but AC are there to play ..
    Quite some assertions in that post and some I agree with. The people that consider the vanilla experience the only true or best living world experience don't agree with us. Thus, I responded that their view of what makes a living world was very short lived.

    The other thing that baffles me is early mmos weren't often, if ever, commonly referred to or described as living worlds. I don't think they were. I remember MMO gamers being interested in quality online communities not living world simulations. If "living worlds" were really in demand wouldn't there be more of them?

    So only the titles on your list are of any note... to you. I think newer games are better and have more to offer. If they were really that good compared to current offerings then people would play those instead wouldn't they.
    Everyones experience will differ of course Torv , mine all those games i go back to or currently play because all the newer games dont offer for ex.. Even 1/3 the player activities in a game like UO ..

         Well , i also think the problem for many players and why these games are Niche now ..
     Is the simple fact is that they take dedication , have a higher learning curve , and truly require social interaction .. Todays players want instant gratification , jump in easy play , and the ability to socialize as little as possible , Hence why they arent as popular now ..

        Many of todays gamers , think they want that Living World Experrience till they Experience it , then run back to one of these newer games that offer little resitance for them and there play style

      and as a side note .. Origin System slogan for UO was " We Create Worlds"
     and EQ          "Your in Our World"  etc ..

      so these games were created and promoted with that in mind
    Post edited by Scorchien on
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  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    Like mentioned above, Ryzom. Its the only one tbh, the rest just provided more freedom.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastMember UncommonPosts: 2,092
    Before I read any other post I thought Ryzom. Maybe Kenshi if I was stretching to look for something else. I don't think anything really exists that is a living breathing world MMO other than Ryzom. WoW phasing, nope, GW2 dynamic events, nope.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,667
    lahnmir said:
    Like mentioned above, Ryzom. Its the only one tbh, the rest just provided more freedom.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I'd go with EVE myself, but then again I never spent much time in Ryzom.

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    Depending on how you apply the definition of "Living breathing world" I think most sandboxes would fall within it. When it's broad enough to cover WoW then it literally covers everything. Particularly given most MMOs are based on WoW.

    In the narrowest definition I would say the fact that trolls will bash through your fence and eat your livestock, wolves will kill chickens they can find, trees grow naturally on their own and are spread by other trees of the same type, unused mines and roads collapse over time etc. would make Wurm the truest "Living breathing world" I have played.
    KyleranPhaserlight
  • SpiiderSpiider BinzMember UncommonPosts: 620
    Wurm online. Everything is made and done by the players, without players there is no world, just wilderness.

    Eve online. 90% of what is worth in that game is made by players.

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 13,112
    Mobs move around instead of standing in a non realistic fashion just waiting to be clicked.Eco system,mobs need to eat just as we do,mobs fight and kill each other just as we fight them.Seasons that have an impact,weather that has an impact,elements as we may need warmer clothes or more fluids to drink,food which has a more meaningful impact and not just OOC which has never made sense.
    We need to survive therefor we need homes,hunting,crafting etc etc,i hope this gets the point across.
    Most games do not come even close to creating an actual plausible RPG world and elements,instead most feel like lazy generated worlds with a login screen and dungeons for looting.
    This is why i rate the games so low because they are NOT good quality mmorpg's,in most cases not even close and why i sigh at all these horrible reviews/previews i see from what seems like people with no clue about what role playing stands for or what the world SHOULD be like.Instead it seems and why i said it a long time ago,most grew up with Wow,the anti rpg and think that is what mmorpg's should be like,they are WRONG.

    I am not going to say you shouldn't play Wow or similar clones but i do not accept people calling them good mmorpg's,they are simply a login screen with connect the dots elements and looting,nothing more.
    Kyleran

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    Scorchien said:
    Everyones experience will differ of course Torv , mine all those games i go back to or currently play because all the newer games dont offer for ex.. Even 1/3 the player activities in a game like UO ..

         Well , i also think the problem for many players and why these games are Niche now ..
     Is the simple fact is that they take dedication , have a higher learning curve , and truly require social interaction .. Todays players want instant gratification , jump in easy play , and the ability to socialize as little as possible , Hence why they arent as popular now ..

        Many of todays gamers , think they want that Living World Experrience till they Experience it , then run back to one of these newer games that offer little resitance for them and there play style

      and as a side note .. Origin System slogan for UO was " We Create Worlds"
     and EQ          "Your in Our World"  etc ..

      so these games were created and promoted with that in mind
    We both made some points and I do agree with a lot of what your write, but the point that people don't actually want virtual worlds, even though they say they do, stands out to me. I think the point can extrapolated out and cover most every situation in gaming where players say they want one thing and mean another, but is especially fitting for "virtual world" and "innovation".

    After reading the responses in the CS poo thread here: forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/468041/characters-will-need-to-poop-in-star-citizen

    I wonder if people want virtual world features at all. Maybe it's just so cool to make ignorant comments about CS/CIG or to use those threads as the "edgy post platform" that a quality discussion is impossible so I thought I'd partially bring that over here. I don't want to focus on SC and how everyone hates it, but rather does adding those sorts of reality aspects add to a virtual world if they're done sensibly. What does sensible mean in the context of virtual worlds?

    And then I'd like to discuss the reactions in that thread as they pertain to virtual worlds. Given the lack of quality in those comments can the average gamer even handle systems that add depth to a virtual world? Can socially difficult or potentially awkward subjects work well within the context of a virtual world. I'm not talking about poo jokes here, that was to be expected to a degree, but that's as far as it went outside of vehemently rejecting the idea and hyperbolic ridicule.

    So can these things be implemented in a game without distracting? Can the be done well and what does that even mean? Is the general playerbase at large just not mature or interested in superficial gameplay? I don't agree that everyone wants instant gratification as much as I think they mainly want superficial game play.

    Your thoughts and reflections on this would interest me.
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  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,847
    Torval said:
    Scorchien said:
    Everyones experience will differ of course Torv , mine all those games i go back to or currently play because all the newer games dont offer for ex.. Even 1/3 the player activities in a game like UO ..

         Well , i also think the problem for many players and why these games are Niche now ..
     Is the simple fact is that they take dedication , have a higher learning curve , and truly require social interaction .. Todays players want instant gratification , jump in easy play , and the ability to socialize as little as possible , Hence why they arent as popular now ..

        Many of todays gamers , think they want that Living World Experrience till they Experience it , then run back to one of these newer games that offer little resitance for them and there play style

      and as a side note .. Origin System slogan for UO was " We Create Worlds"
     and EQ          "Your in Our World"  etc ..

      so these games were created and promoted with that in mind
    We both made some points and I do agree with a lot of what your write, but the point that people don't actually want virtual worlds, even though they say they do, stands out to me. I think the point can extrapolated out and cover most every situation in gaming where players say they want one thing and mean another, but is especially fitting for "virtual world" and "innovation".

    After reading the responses in the CS poo thread here: forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/468041/characters-will-need-to-poop-in-star-citizen

    I wonder if people want virtual world features at all. Maybe it's just so cool to make ignorant comments about CS/CIG or to use those threads as the "edgy post platform" that a quality discussion is impossible so I thought I'd partially bring that over here. I don't want to focus on SC and how everyone hates it, but rather does adding those sorts of reality aspects add to a virtual world if they're done sensibly. What does sensible mean in the context of virtual worlds?

    And then I'd like to discuss the reactions in that thread as they pertain to virtual worlds. Given the lack of quality in those comments can the average gamer even handle systems that add depth to a virtual world? Can socially difficult or potentially awkward subjects work well within the context of a virtual world. I'm not talking about poo jokes here, that was to be expected to a degree, but that's as far as it went outside of vehemently rejecting the idea and hyperbolic ridicule.

    So can these things be implemented in a game without distracting? Can the be done well and what does that even mean? Is the general playerbase at large just not mature or interested in superficial gameplay? I don't agree that everyone wants instant gratification as much as I think they mainly want superficial game play.

    Your thoughts and reflections on this would interest me.
    The Sims did a really good job with biological functions.  I'd like to see a bit more of that kind of simulation incorporated into MMORPGs, but maybe not at that micro level.  Overall sanitation and cleanliness could easily be applicable to one's social standing, and a major criteria for NPC reactions.  "Be sure to clean up after disemboweling those orcs, or you they won't let you in Mrs. Wellington's Garden Party tonight."  Every adventurer needs a quick bath and clean clothes every once in awhile.  Easy to implement as a cost.
    TorvalSedrynTyros

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Mendel said:
      Every adventurer needs a quick bath and clean clothes every once in awhile.  Easy to implement as a cost.
    But the question is .. is it fun, and whether players will be turned off and play something else.

    It is certainly easy to implement eating .. that dated back to the first Ultima series. But you don't see a lot of games requiring eating, because it is simply a chore. 
  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,847
    Mendel said:
      Every adventurer needs a quick bath and clean clothes every once in awhile.  Easy to implement as a cost.
    But the question is .. is it fun, and whether players will be turned off and play something else.

    It is certainly easy to implement eating .. that dated back to the first Ultima series. But you don't see a lot of games requiring eating, because it is simply a chore. 
    Fun is a highly subjective thing.  For the longest time, the best selling computer game in the world was Microsoft's Flight Simulator.  Some found it fun, enough to make the proverbial boatloads of money.  Maybe not so popular with the acrophobia community.

    Perhaps if the developers approached an MMORPG as a simulation of a fantasy-based world rather than a game, the resultant interfaces *might* be more interesting or 'fun' for different players.  Or at least as 'fun' as operating an e-control on an e-cockpit console.  An attempt to simulate a fantasy-based world would almost certainly fit the definition of a 'living-breathing world' that is the topic of this thread, if that weren't an overriding design philosophy from the start.

    There's plenty of games that focus on food, from Civilization to EQ1.  That's an easier aspect to incorporate into a strategy game, based on the number of TBS and RTS games that use this concept.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    The food, drink, sleep, and other such status points are about managing a simulation. It's not that people find "food" boring, but in the implementation of that sim management.

    When @Scorchien said above that he feels there aren't as many people interested in virtual worlds as they say, I think he's hit on something. There are some people that like simulation management and strategies and they enjoy fiddling with that. But I think more people that say they want a virtual world actually just want a gaming experience that immerses them and pulls them away from the realities of life. Purely conjecture on my part, but I think people want a world that feels real without the hassle of managing reality.

    On one hand you have people who enjoy fiddling with those systems to try and maximize survival or success and then people are interested in the atmosphere, adventure, and interactions over the micromanagement. I'm not sure a single world can be created to accommodate both.
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  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisMember RarePosts: 3,286
    Ryzom 




  • lahnmirlahnmir UtrechtMember RarePosts: 925
    Dammit! With all the people (including me) mentioning Ryzom I feel like restarting again, that game is so amazing...

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir 
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Mendel said:

    Fun is a highly subjective thing.  There's plenty of games that focus on food, from Civilization to EQ1.  That's an easier aspect to incorporate into a strategy game, based on the number of TBS and RTS games that use this concept.
    Yes and Yes.

    But the question is whether enough players find eating food fun in a MMO. Not that strategic games are super popular these days.

    And sure, even WoW has food. But WoW does not require the chore of eating. That should tell you something. 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    Mendel said:

    Fun is a highly subjective thing.  There's plenty of games that focus on food, from Civilization to EQ1.  That's an easier aspect to incorporate into a strategy game, based on the number of TBS and RTS games that use this concept.
    Yes and Yes.

    But the question is whether enough players find eating food fun in a MMO. Not that strategic games are super popular these days.

    And sure, even WoW has food. But WoW does not require the chore of eating. That should tell you something. 
    You're wrong about strategy games.

    Blizzard just spent a chunk of money remastering StarCraft and now sells it for $15 which people still buy even though they can play the old version for free.

    There are several strategy games in the Steam Charts top 20. Civ V, which is around number 10 on the chart right now, has over 18.5M person hours played and Civ VI has over 10M.  On top of that many of the rest of the games on the top 20 have heavy simulation, strategy, or tactical elements. They are quite popular, not that the magnitude matters, only that developers find enough money in it to keep making the games.

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. As you say it's up to the developer to find a fun way to entice you into playing their game. If they made it fun and engaging most people won't care or complain what it's called or about.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    edited September 14
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 
    As I pointed out last time you made this ridiculous argument "Going poop" is the standard argument everyone gives against food mechanics. However very few people who want food mechanics push for pooping mechanics. Food mechanics can provide challenge and depth if well implemented. Pooping mechanics are pretty much always tedious (Or just stupid like the occasional pooping sound in Ark).

    Your argument is about as original and intelligent as a girl in yoga pants and uggs sipping on a Starbucks latte. 
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    cameltosistimtrackJean-Luc_Picard
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    edited September 14
    Eldurian said:
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 
    As I pointed out last time you made this ridiculous argument "Going poop" is the standard argument everyone gives against food mechanics. However very few people who want food mechanics push for pooping mechanics. Food mechanics can provide challenge and depth if well implemented. Pooping mechanics are pretty much always tedious (Or just stupid like the occasional pooping sound in Ark).

    Your argument is about as original and intelligent as a girl in yoga pants and uggs sipping on a Starbucks latte. 
    Very rarely have any sort of survival mechanics - food, weight, rest, sleep, hydration, etc been implemented in any sort of interesting way. Additionally they're typically so easily gamified that they end up being a trivial influence in strategy and tactics. Typically they're crude like in ARK and most survival games, or so simplistic that they're trivialized like in EQ/EQ2.

    That doesn't mean Narius is right. In fact he evaded and deflected the question by trying to put it back on me. It's not my job to design the systems for a specific game or to make them fun. He has to resort to the ridiculous again to try and present an argument. 
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 

    If you have to poo every 5 minutes then you should see a doctor. How do you even have time to game?
    Post edited by Torval on
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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,606
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 

    If you have to poo every 5 minutes then you should see a doctor. How do you even have time to game?
    But then, it would explain at LOT... B)
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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,758
    PlaneShift - http://www.planeshift.it/ It's a virtual world with strict RP and naming rules. On top of that it's totally free. It's also one of the first, if not the first, mmos to treat death in a different manner.
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  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,847
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 

    If you have to poo every 5 minutes then you should see a doctor. How do you even have time to game?
    But then, it would explain at LOT... B)
    Does this mean that he's found a way to relieve himself via these forums?  I'm all for evolution, but even I'm not ready to deal with that!
    KyleranJean-Luc_Picard

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarreMember EpicPosts: 6,606
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 

    If you have to poo every 5 minutes then you should see a doctor. How do you even have time to game?
    But then, it would explain at LOT... B)
    Does this mean that he's found a way to relieve himself via these forums?  I'm all for evolution, but even I'm not ready to deal with that!
    Possibly he has nothing else to do while sitting on the "throne" than to post on forums using some laptop or tablet ;)
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    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,847
    Mendel said:
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun. 
    I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.

    Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life. 

    If you have to poo every 5 minutes then you should see a doctor. How do you even have time to game?
    But then, it would explain at LOT... B)
    Does this mean that he's found a way to relieve himself via these forums?  I'm all for evolution, but even I'm not ready to deal with that!
    Possibly he has nothing else to do while sitting on the "throne" than to post on forums using some laptop or tablet ;)
    I really hope you're right.  I may have nightmares otherwise.
    Jean-Luc_PicardKyleran

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

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