What is a Living Breathing World MMO? Any examples of one of these MMOs talked about here?

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  • SengiSengi HamburgMember CommonPosts: 350
    Originally posted by iixviiiix

    It mean the game broad (world) have it own cycle (of life) and not roll around player's action . For example. The cycle are 7 days "in game time" or farmer's farm Day 1 he plan the seeds , at day 4 the seeds grow and rats start appears at day 7 , if he manage to kill the rats , it time for him to harvest . Base on the cycle there are many possible "future" depend on player's "chose"   Basically it kind of design where the game world roll around independent  with players. It difference with current the world roll around players (main character of the story line)   "living world" are kind of design where the game world still run even if player join it or not . While "hero design" game world "stop" when player don't play it anymore.

    I think this sums it up quite well. A living breathing world is a game world that is more like a simulation. It is not static but it does things on its own. The dynamic events in GW2 go in this direction, although in a very rudimentary way that is not well implemented. StoryBricks is promising a lot of this kind of stuff.

    What is maybe even more important is that the there are many ways to interact with the game world that don't  evolve around combat. Planting weeds is one example. Another key feature world be the ability to place items on the ground like it was possible in UO. It starts with little thinks like sitting in chairs and if there is a plate with food I want to be able to eat it. This is what makes the game world feel responsive and alive.  

    The epitome of a game world that feels dead is the type of static quest locations that exist in almost every themepark mmo. The game world consist of these small locations that are only build for one specific quest, and once you are finished with it they become completely useless.

    And no, it is not simply nostalgia. And the one time events that exist GW2 for example are a neat feature but the don't really make the game world feel more alive for me.

  • PhryPhry OxfordshireMember EpicPosts: 8,991
    Originally posted by Xiaoki
    GW2 is a bad example because some of the Living Story events have had an impact on the game world but these events were planned scripted events.

    A "Living Breathing" world would not have scripted events on timers. Things would just happen.


    EQN is much more in line with what a "Living Breathing" world should be.
    Of you hunt

    I think personally that EQN will just be another example of the mechanics used in GW2, another variation in effect of the 'seemingly' random scripted events that follow a fairly linear path. Of course until SOE actually manage to create the thing we won't know for sure, but early indications do seem to point in that direction, either way the ephemeral nature of those 'scripted events' is not really in question so i don't think its really representative of an 'ideal' for candidacy of a 'living breathing world'. If anything, based on previous games at least, a 'living breathing world' is not so much 'designed' as something that occurs under the right conditions, however only sandbox games so far appear to have the best 'possibility' of bringing those 'conditions' together. image

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHMember UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by flizzer
    When people use this term they are really talking about nostalgia and the game they played when they were younger and had so much more free time.   Nostalgia is a wonderful drug that distorts reality.

    What game are you talking about?

    EQ certainly wasn't "living and breathing" with slow static spawn, and camping.

         The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs..  When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead..  However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city..  That is a living breathing world..   

  • SulaaSulaa nMember UncommonPosts: 1,329

    None of MMORPGs have 'living breathing world'

     

    Closest to have it from still existing one are propably:

     

    WURM

    EVE

     

    but they sell gold for $, so kinda undermine 'living breathing world' at same time.

     

    In 1997-1999  Ultima Online also could've been used as example of 'living breathing mmo'  by standards from 90s.    UO was very simplistic, even primitive in many regards + had A LOT conceptual downsides - so by todays standard I would not call it 'living breathing mmo' anymore.

     

    WoW of GW2 as example of 'living breathing world'  is an absurd.  WoW - I have no idea why would anyone call it 'living breathing world'.   GW2  - sorry simple scripted events on loop - cannot be called 'living breathing world'.

  • SengiSengi HamburgMember CommonPosts: 350
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs..  When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead..  However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city..  That is a living breathing world..   

    There is more to a living breathing world then seeing other players run by. Most mmo's are basically single player games. You only see other players while they are playing the same single player content like you. I don't get much thrill out of that.

  • delta9delta9 PlymouthMember UncommonPosts: 358

    like others have said, SWG was a perfect example of a living breating world - a open sandbox game with so many choices of things to do - with so many systems and activities outside of the scope of the "wow generation" norm

     

    a game where not only the game provides many things to do, but where the community can and often does do things outside of the box too, creating a world not just designed to be experienced (themepark) but also inviting and exciting to add, change and influence (sandbox)

     

    So it isnt just down to the game itself but the community that inhabits that world also matters but getting both together at the same time is a rare but awesome thing :)

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHMember UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Sengi
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    The term living breathing world refers to "PLAYERS" actively engaged in the world.. It has nothing to do with NPC and mobs..  When you venture out and see no one, the cities seem void of players, people consider the game world dead..  However, when you bump into others frequently, or group up with them while adventuring, and the cities are robust with active players chatting, or doing whatever brings them to the city..  That is a living breathing world..   

    There is more to a living breathing world then seeing other players run by. Most mmo's are basically single player games. You only see other players while they are playing the same single player content like you. I don't get much thrill out of that.

    And where did I say it ONLY is seeing others?  Player INTERACTION is the key..  I don't care if you're chatting, selling, buying, buffing, etc etc..  Being social is what makes it a living breathing world.. IMO..  Without it, you are just playing a single player console game..

  • brenthbrenth rock island, WAMember UncommonPosts: 290
    A living breathing world  is partly a world that is not centered around the character. it is also more immersive  to the character   there are seasons it can be hot or cold   you can get hungry or thirsty  usualy where you gain penalties but not actually die   you get woulds or cripples but but heal quickly or ways to remove them.  the best way to describe it is if the player were pulled into another universial dimention something like (avatar).
    a game might have a great start this way  the great escape to this new world.
    you might start out with a small pack of items  but all your knowledge of the new world is unknown and the NPC or even pcs interact with you as such and you make friends or enemies, get thrown in jail,   there are disease and famines    there are trinary encounters like robbers or gobblins  as well as some semi static locations  and usually the world is BIG days or weeks walking  and if there are oceans then there are ways to travel by water  crafts are important for social or morale or rumors and information. and there is work besides adventuring.

    make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.

  • paul43paul43 OsloMember UncommonPosts: 147
    I would say games where you had to interact with the players more. In Anarchy Online you had to ask other players for buffs to put on armor and weapons, buffs to travel. You met people in the game and went out and killed some stuff to lvl.

    You had to sell your loot yourself. It's all hard work and glad games are not like that anymore. 

    These days you never have to interact with anyone to do normal stuff like putting on a weapon, and you get ported into a group.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,848
    Sulaa said:

    WoW of GW2 as example of 'living breathing world'  is an absurd.  WoW - I have no idea why would anyone call it 'living breathing world'.   GW2  - sorry simple scripted events on loop - cannot be called 'living breathing world'.

    It's tendency by people to just shout out the name of their favorite MMOs every time someone asks "What MMO has X positive quality?"

    "What MMO has the best graphics?" "WoW!!!"
    "What MMO is a living breathing world?" "WOW!!!"
    "What MMO has the best storyline?" "WOW!!!"
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,786
    Xzen said:
    Originally posted by fardreamer
    vanilla ultima online.

    +1 You nailed it.


    It didn't have a very long life though did it.

    How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
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  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,685
    flizzer said:
    When people use this term they are really talking about nostalgia and the game they played when they were younger and had so much more free time.   Nostalgia is a wonderful drug that distorts reality.

    So tired of this absurd argument. First of all, who has ever referred to any old school MMO as having a living world? The best thing about old school MMOs was the sense of community, never heard "living world" to describe them.

    And stop telling us that we only prefer the first gen MMOs because of nostalgia, it is insulting to my intelligence. I know wtf I like and why I like it.

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,685
    fivoroth said:
    People are probably referring to their first mmo. The nostalgia makes that mmo seem amazing. When in reality it was what they would call an on rails theme park experience. People refer to every mmo as a theme park and use the term sandbox as the holy grail. So far I haven't come across which feels these so called criteria. I guess the most amusing is when you read people hate what they call theme parks and say that EQ was so much better even though EQ fits their criteria for an on rails theme park experience lol.

    See my last post, for you as well. 
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Anderson, InMember RarePosts: 3,170
    Star Citizen ?
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
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  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,685
    edited September 8
    For the OP, I would say Ultima Online Catskills server. We had so many awesome RP guild, true strict always in character Rp guilds. It really made the world feel alive. We even had orc guilds that would wear the same armor as the NPC orcs despite it being crappy, they also hung out in the orc forts around the world. Always stayed in character, had some good fights with them even though they were easy to kill. The world did feel alive because the community made it that way.
    Post edited by Viper482 on
    Scorchien
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 6,003
    A living breathing world would be GW2 as you work your way through the story  you get promoted and hear the towns folk talking about what has happened in the world.  You also do minor investigations like finding out what happened to your parents or your sister.  ESO does the same, you end up running into NPC's who have heard of your exploits and comment on them from time to time.  Or any game where you build up trust or hate with different NPC factions  like in WoW.  So basically building a reputation in the game world.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,786
    A living breathing world would be GW2 as you work your way through the story  you get promoted and hear the towns folk talking about what has happened in the world.  You also do minor investigations like finding out what happened to your parents or your sister.  ESO does the same, you end up running into NPC's who have heard of your exploits and comment on them from time to time.  Or any game where you build up trust or hate with different NPC factions  like in WoW.  So basically building a reputation in the game world.

    I love playing ESO (Aldmeri Dominion) and how some of the queens followers say stuff like, "So you're supposed to be the hero everyone is talking about." in this snarky condescending voice. In LotRO the NPC will often address you by name. That sort of stuff really pulls me in.
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  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,848
    A really old necro.  But not record-setting, at least for this site.

    To me, a living, breathing world has to react to the actions of the character.  At its core, this means that the spawn rate (introduction of new creatures into the environment) needs to respond to activity on the server.  Hunt a lot of predators, the herbivores will fill the eco-system.  Kill all the prey, and the predators will move away looking for food.  To date, the only MMORPG that I've played that incorporated this concept has been Ryzom.

    Ryzom even had changes in mat harvesting for day/night, sun/rain and seasonal variations.  Some mats only dropped on rainy fall nights.  The only problem is that this variation was also coupled with difficulty of the area.  It really serious dedication to harvest the special stuff from the dangerous places.  Casual craftsmen need not apply.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,031
      UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve ........These are some of the best examples , all these games were designed to cultivate community activity , They all have dome tremendous jobs of wrapping the LOre/Classes/Crafting and pve and pvp experience into a cohesive believeable world .. Its not just a number its a world expereince that was delivered ..
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,031
    edited September 8
    Torval said:
    Xzen said:
    Originally posted by fardreamer
    vanilla ultima online.

    +1 You nailed it.


    It didn't have a very long life though did it.

    How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
    UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up..
      There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ... 

      And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically)  Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 16,982
    A thread from 2014
  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 132
    Viper482 said:
    flizzer said:
    When people use this term they are really talking about nostalgia and the game they played when they were younger and had so much more free time.   Nostalgia is a wonderful drug that distorts reality.

    So tired of this absurd argument. First of all, who has ever referred to any old school MMO as having a living world? The best thing about old school MMOs was the sense of community, never heard "living world" to describe them.

    And stop telling us that we only prefer the first gen MMOs because of nostalgia, it is insulting to my intelligence. I know wtf I like and why I like it.

    Ultima Online's depth of features has nothing to do with nostalgia.  No game has come close despite huge leaps in technology, other than in flashier graphics.  It's pretty pathetic really.
    Scorchien
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,786
    edited September 9
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    Xzen said:
    Originally posted by fardreamer
    vanilla ultima online.

    +1 You nailed it.


    It didn't have a very long life though did it.

    How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
    UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up..
      There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ... 

      And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically)  Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
    That's not what I'm talking about. Fardreamer said "vanilla ultima online" and Xzen +1'd. I pointed out that the vanilla living world that was UO didn't last that long before it changed.

    One of the loudest complaints from the old school mmo vets is that these first gen games are trashy shadows of their former selves. Is that not true?

    The OP asked for current examples. Someone pointed out a past example. Lots of people pointed out past examples. Do the current games fit the bill and qualify or don't they?

    More older (first gen) games closed than survived. A handful of titles doesn't prove the design point. A lot of first gen designs were crude and unpopular. Turns out fixing and improving on them is hard because we all like different things.
    Post edited by Torval on
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  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,031
    edited September 9
    Torval said:
    Scorchien said:
    Torval said:
    Xzen said:
    Originally posted by fardreamer
    vanilla ultima online.

    +1 You nailed it.


    It didn't have a very long life though did it.

    How long can a living breathing world last? Of those that have existed, how many are still left? What's the average lifespan for one?
    UO , Everquest, DAOC , AC, AO , Eve and Runescape all of these are left and all the longest running MMOs out for a reason , while many others that have opened much later have shutterd up..
      There longevity stands as a testimate to there great worlds ... 

      And as far as Vanilla UO not lasting long, 20 years is a good run as you can still play Siege Perilous server which is orginal rule set(basically)  Skill gains are different , Its actually a little harder than Vanilla only the Hardcore need apply
    That's not what I'm talking about. Fardreamer said "vanilla ultima online" and Xzen +1'd. I pointed out that the vanilla living world that was UO didn't last that long before it changed.

    One of the loudest complaints from the old school mmo vets is that these first gen games are trashy shadows of their former selves. Is that not true?

    The OP asked for current examples. Someone pointed out a past example. Lots of people pointed out past examples. Do the current games fit the bill and qualify or don't they?

    More older (first gen) games closed than survived. A handful of titles doesn't prove the design point. A lot of first gen designs were crude and unpopular. Turns out fixing and improving on them is hard because we all like different things.
    Each one of those games is currently available and provides more of a Living Breathing World than any other games avavilble in there current and former versions ..

      AC closed this year , aside from that All the first Gen games i listed are availble ...Which are all the closed ones , and im not implying small unknown Titles ..

     UO,Everquest,AO,DAOC ,Runescape and AC These are the first gen titles of any note all but AC are there to play ..
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,031
    DMKano said:
    A thread from 2014
    whats the point?
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