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Wildstar's Difficulty

Spankster77Spankster77 Marlton, NJPosts: 404Member

There is something bothering me about the general consensus that Wildstar's dungeons/raids are too difficult for "casual" players.  It's not!  The term "casual" doesn't imply "herp derp", it just means that they don't spend 20 + hours a week on the game or they don't chose to participate in large scale raiding. 

 

In fact Wildstar's telegraph system is one of the fairest least gear dependent systems I have ever seen.  Most damage is totally avoidable (tanks excluded) which basically means if you don't stand in poop you win.  There is far less RNG involved than in games like WoW. 

 

I think the one thing Carbine should incorporate is some 10 man end game content on par with the 20/40 mans.  In my opinion the best raiding model ever was WoW back in TBC.  You had 10 the option of doing either 10 or 25 or both through most of the expansion.  Kara was kind of the entry level 10 man raid when you got to 70 (after attunement) but once you had the gear you could also add in Gruuls and Magtheridon (sp?).   This model worked out well because 10 mans are very PuG-able and that was where most people met their guilds (if they didn't already have one), this held true even in T5 as you had ZA.

 

So I would encourage Carbine to add some 10 or 8 man content for end game for each tier! 

 

Also remember, that game communities aren't build by the devs, they are built by the players.  Help people out when you can, encourage don't discourage.  If someone isn't doing something right help them constructively.  No one ever learned by being told "you should uninstall you baddie!!".

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Comments

  • There are plenty of "casual" gamers who have been beating genuinely hard games (as opposed to the fake hardness of MMORPG raids with gear gates and other bullshit) since computer gaming started.

     

    People simply like to conflate terms catagories together so that they can disparage certain people without getting called on it.  They like to use "causual" to actually refer to the "Lowest Common Denominator" rather than someone who doesn't play all the time or who weights other things in life as more important.

     

    In a practical sense human communication never really exists without a number of layers of lies, people don't even know they are doing it often.  But they also kind of do know.  Don't bother calling them out on it, though, that is like trying to grab a fish bare handed and since most people do it they automatically defend it.

     

    In short its all bullshit and politics; don't get involved in it.

  • OsmericOsmeric Lake in the Hills, ILPosts: 7Member
    Well, if Wildstar's raids (and the attunement to get into raiding) aren't too difficult or otherwise offputting for most players, then there must be an great lack of people playing the game, as only 89 guilds have downed even the first raid boss.
  • JonnyBigBossJonnyBigBoss Murrieta, CAPosts: 699Member
    I disagree. I have never quit an MMO for being too difficult until now. I got to 50 and quit within a week.
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 835Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JonnyBigBoss
    I disagree. I have never quit an MMO for being too difficult until now. I got to 50 and quit within a week.

    You see, that is ok.  The MMO isn't for you.  That doesn't mean it's not gonna appeal to another MMO Player.  There are a lot of easier mmos out their (the leveling in the game I mean).  I think Wildstar is just trying to be different.  I also think the game will only get better and better as time goes by with each new patch. 

  • thundergodtthundergodt cleveland, OHPosts: 27Member Uncommon
    This game is to hard. Anyone who ran the first instance at 20 can tell you that. At 50 its the same deal. I don't like having to join a guild just to get a 5 man instance down, so if i cant pug in your game then its to hard. I tried it out at 50 as healing and dps on a medic then quit. as a medic i have to say the damage does come in to fast for you to heal it all in most teams. and the average player who will que as dps is usually the first to die. imo they need to slow down the incoming damage on this game make it like Tera where you only get hit if you are bad.
  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by Osmeric
    Well, if Wildstar's raids (and the attunement to get into raiding) aren't too difficult or otherwise offputting for most players, then there must be an great lack of people playing the game, as only 89 guilds have downed even the first raid boss.

    But the fact that only 89 guilds have downed the first raid boss is a good thing! It means there are indeed long term goals in this game. A lot of people complain that games like WoW have become too instant gratification and easy (not sure I agree with them entirely on that point) and get bored with the offered endgame. Well, WS is one that is not easy to finish in its entirety.

     

    OP and the one straight after it are really great. I personally love the fact that not everything is handed on a silver platter to players straight away and that you have to be on your toes in order to survive. Yes, it is frustrating to do combat if you have the slightest hint of lag because getting hit has consequences, but imho it should be that way. One large beef I have with WoW and many other games these days is that it is too easy to tank. There was a time when groups had to work together to complete goals and that was the way to progress but all of that got nerfed pretty much in a standard fashion in the MMO industry. I would like to have one themepark MMO where the devs don't nerf it. I was happiest in groups during Vanilla, TBC, and then in the difficult heroic Cata phases of WoW and of course in the oldschool MMORPGs where you had to have good group dynamics. Just so much funner than facerolling all the time.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • Nebulizer87Nebulizer87 Waynesville, MOPosts: 29Member
    There seems to be a huge decline in population in all realms simply because if you don't have the guild to run Silver dungeons, and progress to having 20 people raid ready there literally is nothing to do. As an esper the current comp for raid group is 1 dps esper and then maybe 2 esper heals, I can't find a decent guild as there is only 1 on our server actually raiding even then they barely scraped 20 together to get there. So most of the population sits in town twiddling thumbs. There does seem to be a bit of a disconnect and im debating if i should just come back in a few months when more content and class balancing is put in.
  • LudwikLudwik Rochester, NYPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Just my opinion, saying Wildstar's dungeons are not 'casual' friendly is absolutely correct.

    The dungeon bosses are very complex and contain a large amount of mechanics. The fights themselves are not difficult once you've learned the mechanics. It simply comes down to execution and almost everyone can hit a memorized sequence of keys when given enough practice.

    The problem is just that, that it takes practice or in this particular case, it takes multiple wipes to learn all the mechanics or it takes 15 minutes researching the wiki and watching a YouTube video.

    The game requires a large time investment in order to be successful that is the very definition of not being 'casual' friendly.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,544Member Uncommon

    It's pretty shocking to me how fast the hype died down for Wildstar.

    I mean look at how praised and well reviewed it was by MMORPG - and hardly anyone is even talking about it here anymore.

    Also I looked at reddit - it's half the traffic it had a couple of weeks ago.

     

    Not sure if this has anything to do with difficulty - but it sure seems to be lacking staying power.

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 835Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano

    It's pretty shocking to me how fast the hype died down for Wildstar.

    I mean look at how praised and well reviewed it was by MMORPG - and hardly anyone is even talking about it here anymore.

    Also I looked at reddit - it's half the traffic it had a couple of weeks ago.

     

    Not sure if this has anything to do with difficulty - but it sure seems to be lacking staying power.

    Maybe those people who would normally post a lot of hate threads are still playing wildstar.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,544Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MrMelGibson

    Maybe those people who would normally post a lot of hate threads are still playing wildstar.

    It's one possibility, or maybe the retention rate wasn't very good.

     

  • Br3akingDawnBr3akingDawn a City, CAPosts: 1,357Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thundergodt
    This game is to hard. Anyone who ran the first instance at 20 can tell you that. At 50 its the same deal. I don't like having to join a guild just to get a 5 man instance down, so if i cant pug in your game then its to hard. I tried it out at 50 as healing and dps on a medic then quit. as a medic i have to say the damage does come in to fast for you to heal it all in most teams. and the average player who will que as dps is usually the first to die. imo they need to slow down the incoming damage on this game make it like Tera where you only get hit if you are bad.

    Ok, this must differ with different people. I heal fine. Im casual. I pug. Maybe im just lucky and get into parties that know how to simply step out of Big red bright telegraphs. I mean sure it was a little harder at 20 but as I move towards supposingly harder adventures and dungeons, it got easier. Maybe people realize to gtfo of the telegraphs. Heck some dps dont even need heals as if they dodged evvvverything. oh and really everyone should have a heal skill to migitate a bit if they really suxxors at movement.

    image

  • borghive49borghive49 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 131Member Uncommon

    I think I speak for many players out there when I say it is really nice  sometimes just log into your favorite MMO and just do a few pug dungeons at times. Currently in Wildstar pugging is not possible at all because the level of coordination dungeons require. 

    I'm all for hard content that requires guilds or friends to complete but I just don't understand why a modern MMO doesn't have any pug friendly content or at least a easier version of dungeons.  I play games to have fun and like I said I love interacting with guildies and other friends I play with. But there are times when they are not around or I'm just feeling anti social and being able to just pug a group can be really a nice option.  

     

    Personally I think all the small group content should have a easy and a hardmode so as to make both casual and hardcore players happy.  Honestly the MMO market has shifted a lot since Carbine starting working on this game. If they don't adjust things soon this game is going to die quickly like the above posters are saying the interest in the game has dropped quite a bit. 

     

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 VrakaPosts: 410Member

    What annoys me the most in WildStar is that every single mob in-game has better run speed than me unless im sprinting. The other thing is that the devs went the lazy road and as a result I get falcon punched from a 50m range. "Because he can have a healer with him"  *dull face* 

    Telegraphs however are cool yes. The mobs that doesn't stun lock me (mind you I have no stability type skills) are pretty fun to fight IMO 

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano

    It's pretty shocking to me how fast the hype died down for Wildstar.

    I mean look at how praised and well reviewed it was by MMORPG - and hardly anyone is even talking about it here anymore.

    Also I looked at reddit - it's half the traffic it had a couple of weeks ago.

     

    Not sure if this has anything to do with difficulty - but it sure seems to be lacking staying power.

    That's an important thing to be missing, reviews and marketing only go so far, if people aren't talking about something it means it's not going to grow, that's a major aspect of WOW's continued growth. AS with EVE's. Eventually media coverage will drastically die down, it usually doesn't take that long for such to happen. That's when word of mouth becomes the most important aspect of growth.

    I have personally never seen a forum for a AAA as dead as this one here, at least this close to it's release. It is quite odd.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon

    still playing, having the most fun i've had in a MMO in years and not even at that point where i dont want to login because i cant be bothered anymore...

    stepped into 20 man raids last week with my guild, already have X-89 down and working on kuralak. The difficulty is great an refreshing.. as a Esper Healer MS, i'm having a blast, i also have a second 50 Spell Slinger DPS almost attuned to be able to raid too. It's not overly hard, it takes time to learn the encounters, know when to stun and know when to move.

    i think it's more of a case of the people who were hyped before are playing now not commenting on the game in forums, i still see great server population on Pago NA at peak times!

  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by borghive49

    I think I speak for many players out there when I say it is really nice  sometimes just log into your favorite MMO and just do a few pug dungeons at times. Currently in Wildstar pugging is not possible at all because the level of coordination dungeons require. 

    I'm all for hard content that requires guilds or friends to complete but I just don't understand why a modern MMO doesn't have any pug friendly content or at least a easier version of dungeons.  I play games to have fun and like I said I love interacting with guildies and other friends I play with. But there are times when they are not around or I'm just feeling anti social and being able to just pug a group can be really a nice option.  

     

    Personally I think all the small group content should have a easy and a hardmode so as to make both casual and hardcore players happy.  Honestly the MMO market has shifted a lot since Carbine starting working on this game. If they don't adjust things soon this game is going to die quickly like the above posters are saying the interest in the game has dropped quite a bit. 

     

    Honestly Carbine has said from the start Dungeons / Raids are for the hardcore and that top 1% basically, they have said in several live streams that it's meant to be hard and not everyone is meant to be able to complete it and thats how they designed the game and how they want it to be. I may be biased because i put the time and effort in to get there, but i think it's fair enough they have a vision for their game, they shouldnt have to pander to people and make it easier because "everyone" cant complete it. Maybe they're not worried about not having millions of subscribers or maybe as patches go on and the game gets better and people see the content is still hard and not getting dumbed down it'll encourage more of the hardcore players to get in and start playing maybe not who knows... regardless the game is fine how it is, i'm honestly sorry though that the end game doesnt cater to what you want... but i personally dont want it changed.

    Originally posted by BailoPan15

    What annoys me the most in WildStar is that every single mob in-game has better run speed than me unless im sprinting. The other thing is that the devs went the lazy road and as a result I get falcon punched from a 50m range. "Because he can have a healer with him"  *dull face* 

    Telegraphs however are cool yes. The mobs that doesn't stun lock me (mind you I have no stability type skills) are pretty fun to fight IMO 

    every class has a CC break.

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mbrodie

    i think it's more of a case of the people who were hyped before are playing now not commenting on the game in forums, i still see great server population on Pago NA at peak times!

    That's probably true of those enjoying the game. I doubt the game has a 100% retention rate on the "hyped" though.

    It's probably more a factor of people not really carrying about the IP enough to launch crusades for or against it. Which is both good and bad, good that it won't receive an army of people tearing it down. Yet bad in that: for an IP to grow, it needs people to care about it. Otherwise it just becomes an unknown name on a shelf or on a digital download page.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by mbrodie

    i think it's more of a case of the people who were hyped before are playing now not commenting on the game in forums, i still see great server population on Pago NA at peak times!

    That's probably true of those enjoying the game. I doubt the game has a 100% retention rate on the "hyped" though.

    It's probably more a factor of people not really carrying about the IP enough to launch crusades for or against it. Which is both good and bad, good that it won't receive an army of people tearing it down. Yet bad in that: for an IP to grow, it needs people to care about it. Otherwise it just becomes an unknown name on a shelf or on a digital download page.

    oh thats 100% true, i know a few RL friends who stopped playing and a bunch of people from guild who also quit, that being said we still have over 200 members in guild and recieve 10 - 15 new apps a week, so i mean the game is far from dead but it definitely does not have a 100% retention rate, which is fine... it might carve out a nice niche for itself... or it might do like WoW and take a couple of years to build a solid base.... or it might even go free to play and people will come back / be more interested.

    Only time will tell :)

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,912Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by mbrodie

    i think it's more of a case of the people who were hyped before are playing now not commenting on the game in forums, i still see great server population on Pago NA at peak times!

    That's probably true of those enjoying the game. I doubt the game has a 100% retention rate on the "hyped" though.

    It's probably more a factor of people not really carrying about the IP enough to launch crusades for or against it. Which is both good and bad, good that it won't receive an army of people tearing it down. Yet bad in that: for an IP to grow, it needs people to care about it. Otherwise it just becomes an unknown name on a shelf or on a digital download page.

    oh thats 100% true, i know a few RL friends who stopped playing and a bunch of people from guild who also quit, that being said we still have over 200 members in guild and recieve 10 - 15 new apps a week, so i mean the game is far from dead but it definitely does not have a 100% retention rate, which is fine... it might carve out a nice niche for itself... or it might do like WoW and take a couple of years to build a solid base.... or it might even go free to play and people will come back / be more interested.

    Only time will tell :)

    Very true, I'd just hate to see a decent game fail simply due to obscurity. Which is only one of dozens of possibilities, there's no denying that.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • borghive49borghive49 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 131Member Uncommon

    Your not getting it if they don't appeal to more people your pool of recruits for your raiding team is going to dry up fast.

    Hardcore raiding has such a small following in MMOs that basing entire game around it well it is just stupid. Carbine didn't attract investors to make a game that would only attract 200k subs. They are like most companies in the corporate world they want to maximize their earnings and right now with their current model I don't see that happening at all. They need some form of easy group content for level capped players in order to keep a healthy growing population. I personally think WoW had the perfect blend of tough and easy group content. A lot of players knock WoW for being easy, but yet I look up a lot of these players and they usually only have normal dungeons and looking for raid achievements no challenge modes completed or heroic raid achievements.  

    Wildstar could implement easy versions of the dungeons very easily I'm sure making them pug friendly using them as a stepping stone to gearing up for raiding or just to exist as end game for casuals. 

    I'm not arguing against the difficulty at all I just think they need alternate difficulties for players that don't always want to have to organize a group or their current real life circumstances don't allot them enough time to raid.

     

    Remember casual players increase your pool of potential raiders and having content for them is good for MMO. Not all casuals are terrible at the game sometimes it is just a matter of not having the time or playing at odd hours to be able to run with the guild or make a lot of friends in game.

     

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 VrakaPosts: 410Member
    Originally posted by mbrodie

    Originally posted by borghive49

    I think I speak for many players out there when I say it is really nice  sometimes just log into your favorite MMO and just do a few pug dungeons at times. Currently in Wildstar pugging is not possible at all because the level of coordination dungeons require. 

    I'm all for hard content that requires guilds or friends to complete but I just don't understand why a modern MMO doesn't have any pug friendly content or at least a easier version of dungeons.  I play games to have fun and like I said I love interacting with guildies and other friends I play with. But there are times when they are not around or I'm just feeling anti social and being able to just pug a group can be really a nice option.  

     

    Personally I think all the small group content should have a easy and a hardmode so as to make both casual and hardcore players happy.  Honestly the MMO market has shifted a lot since Carbine starting working on this game. If they don't adjust things soon this game is going to die quickly like the above posters are saying the interest in the game has dropped quite a bit. 

     

    Honestly Carbine has said from the start Dungeons / Raids are for the hardcore and that top 1% basically, they have said in several live streams that it's meant to be hard and not everyone is meant to be able to complete it and thats how they designed the game and how they want it to be. I may be biased because i put the time and effort in to get there, but i think it's fair enough they have a vision for their game, they shouldnt have to pander to people and make it easier because "everyone" cant complete it. Maybe they're not worried about not having millions of subscribers or maybe as patches go on and the game gets better and people see the content is still hard and not getting dumbed down it'll encourage more of the hardcore players to get in and start playing maybe not who knows... regardless the game is fine how it is, i'm honestly sorry though that the end game doesnt cater to what you want... but i personally dont want it changed.

    Originally posted by BailoPan15

    What annoys me the most in WildStar is that every single mob in-game has better run speed than me unless im sprinting. The other thing is that the devs went the lazy road and as a result I get falcon punched from a 50m range. "Because he can have a healer with him"  *dull face* 

    Telegraphs however are cool yes. The mobs that doesn't stun lock me (mind you I have no stability type skills) are pretty fun to fight IMO 

    every class has a CC break.

     

    Is it a special key or a Support/Utility skill because frankly the game does poor job at explaining me how stun break works. I'm trying to dodge and shit but meh. Once the heavy hitting starts im flat faced to the ground and easily lose 50% HP. In a game where running with a healer around is a requirement (trinity <3 ) that's huge chunk of HP to lose at the start of a fight. 

    And lol the CC resistant mobs are such turnoff :( Pretty much like the defiant mobs in Gw2. I don't like them there either. 

  • Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Is it a special key or a Support/Utility skill because frankly the game does poor job at explaining me how stun break works. I'm trying to dodge and shit but meh. Once the heavy hitting starts im flat faced to the ground and easily lose 50% HP. In a game where running with a healer around is a requirement (trinity <3 ) that's huge chunk of HP to lose at the start of a fight. 

    And lol the CC resistant mobs are such turnoff :( Pretty much like the defiant mobs in Gw2. I don't like them there either. 

    For the special key you ask , just double tap a movement key to roll/dodge out of that stun ( or press the key that tells you ).

    Also , cc resistant mobs ? you mean those with 1-2 knockdown resistance ? you can easily make them hit their face on the floor by using 2-3  interrupts ( like kick , grapling hook and smokebomb for warrior ) . You only need to do them fast like a combo in a fighting game :)  .

     About the game being dead and too hard.... im playing in zhur eu , which is considered to have low - med pop  and we have no problem with finding groups in open world to do events ( blighthaven  dailies )   open world pvp  groups ( had a whole guild  dominion guild yesterday fighting with over 20 of us in blood islands or whatever their name is )  veteran pugs and adventures. The only time i failed with a pug group was because the healer prefered to be stationary to "heal more" ... well you dont do that in most cases....  Maybe i was lucky... maybe people just whine a lot without actually trying ....or maybe..just maybe..they insta hit lvl 50 and try veterans !!!  ofcourse you gonna wipe there.... do adventures do dailies , do challenges , do pvp  ( be it arena or bg or warplot if you have lots of friends guild ) or craft the damn gear.... there are simply enough things to do  and more are added with every patch ( incoming bg if im correct )

  • Spankster77Spankster77 Marlton, NJPosts: 404Member

    There are three things that are essential to wildstar dungeons to succeed.  First, stay out of the red telegraphs, second stay in the green telegraphs as much as possible, third interrupt when needed.  It's pretty much as simple as that.   

     

    The reason Wildstar seems "difficult" is because most MMOs that have been released in the last 7 + years have not required any real focus except maybe hardmode content.  Another reason I believe is that Wildstar is not just simply learn a dance you also gave to pay attention because at any moment the poop may be under your feet.

     

    Wiping is a part of dungeons/MMOs that many forgot existed until this game.  To me it's honestly kind of refreshing.

  • Velonius650Velonius650 Toronto, ONPosts: 27Member
    OP you're confusing the word "casual" with "bad".  There are many players, myself included, who are amazing at the game and only play for limited amounts of time.  Length of time spent in game does not equate skill.....that would be like saying you're very smart because you have perfect attendance at school.....you can attend every class but still flunk the test (raiding). 

    DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
    Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape

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