This whole thread is based on misinformation and ignorance.
1. Nobody even knows what is going to be sold in the cash shop yet. It won't be exactly the same as in the other regions running the game.
2 Trion has stated all along that there definitely won't be pay to win items.
3 Most important of all: There will be two shops. One funded by real world cash, the other funded by Loyalty points that people paying a sub get every day they log in. Many of the things players need will be able to be funded at no extra charge from that source.
Until we know what will be available in each shop posts like the OP one here are pure uninformed speculation.
I did however find his views on playing games before you by them interesting.
"Since the start I have been trying to warn people that they should not pay any money to a game that they have not played. Obviously that didn't work because it never does. People have to get *beep* to learn."
This is the culture now. Everyone wants everything for free. Im old enough to remember having to buy or "RENT" a game before i played it.
Misinformation.
PAYING through cash shop gives you BENEFITS = PAY to WIN. It is really a simple concept and there is no philosophy around it. There is one if you want to sugar coat it. But if you do like or indeed love to get robbed because "companies can make money through any means" then be my guest.
That is how pay to win was introduced - through cash shops. And a hint - benefits do not mean skins or cosmetics and labour points is not "convenience".
Misinformation run a muck. You are right.
And I am happy paying for a sub which I am to a company that respects me and does not rob me in my face. And the laughable price? 7.69 pounds. Yes Sir that is it. Subbing and having to pay for my inventory slots is though laughable. 150 dollars and still have to pay for inventory slots is theft.
And the point is to inform players so they don't sub AND pay through a cash shop. You might be "fine" by it but I am not and as long as I breath I will not. What is going to change? I will tell you exactly what is going to change. These companies are just going to bomb just like NCSoft West did and unfortunately allot and I mean allot of staff got fired from the UK.
This guy is telling in your face as well as him,
And for those who worry about the future of ArcheAge as possibly just a niche game here in the west, Hartsman left this thought: The game has already surpassed all the expectations, and he considers the game already a success. As he put it, "It doesn't need to become the number one game in the west to be a success for us."
and yet you back them up as if they pay your rent. As if they are your local grocery store that sell you fresh fruits and veggies at reasonable price, giving you an alternative to the plastic stuff from supermarkets, only this time those "evil global corporations" are the "small", "local" and "independent" business you once thought they cared for your community.
Lastly, by this logic Riot should use any means to get your last penny but that doesn't happen. In fact Riot, is one of the few companies that players WANT to give their money. If you want to sit and be quiet about this shitty trend you can. If you want to spend any money on them you can. But I will definitely not sit and be quiet about it. This trend is an addiction like a serious drug/alcohol/poker addiction, you name it so I will not be just another one passing by from an issue I see in my face pretending the world is a fine and a happy place because I have it good.
And for the record I have always, and I mean always, paid for a sub. That does not mean I don't give a shit about the rest.
Your concept of P2W is wrong.
Convenience is not winning.
Name one item only available in the cash shop that will make you kill faster/hit harder in PvP or give you some direct winning advantage.
Yeah, didn't think so.
The point is he can't. He has been asked a few times to do this and he can't. He is mad that extra storage can be bought from the shop...extra storage...same as in other games, no big deal.
Yeap... and then he bring up Riot Games as a example for good behaivor.. although Riot is milking their players with their champions sale in comparsion to Valve's DoTA2. And yeah.. you can't compare F2P MOBA with F2P MMO, but only F2P MOBA with F2P MOBA and F2P MMO with F2P MMP.. because they have other requirements... like different development cost, different amount of players playing it, different requirement of money per user.
That's even worse than Swtor, if true. At least in Swtor, you don't have to use cartel coins to expand inventory slots. It might've changed since then, but that's how it used to be as a subscriber. Subscribers are getting shafted now, across all MMOs, even in WoW. It used to be, where a subscription gave you access to everything in the game, but now that's not even true anymore. The MMO genre is just going to drive people away like other genres did with their DLC content.
Tell me OP where i can buy the Mythical gear with uber 1 shot super mass destruction weapons from the cash shop ? Oh darn.........only cosmetic fluffy bunny gimmicks.....no weapons of mass destruction......
Seems i have to craft those items then ! Oh and its a subscription mmo !!! you know !!! where you pay a few euro and have full acces instead of Pay to Enjoy shit free to play games !!!
Trion has made excellent decisions on Archeage
keep that hate comming man, i know its hard to find a job and pay for that astronomical 12 euro a month....... The things i could do with that amount of money....
1x bacardi cola = 8 euro 1x pack of smokes 9 euro damn i am already at 17 euro now for 1 drink and 1 pack of smokes.....that last 6 minutes and 1 day.
Instead i pay 12 euro and get at least 20 days worth of entertainment !!!! What a ripoff from Trion !!!!
I have read patch notes of korean version of the game and i believe that the f2p model of AA is "only just a little" better than swtor. AA don't try to charge for qiuckbar or any kind of UI modification and of course not quest reward but other than that if someone really wants to enjoy AA to fullest they must subscribe. for labor point in korean version there are items that directly give labor points and those items have huge cooldown and price was absurd even in korean version. farming and housing and ship building was restricted only to subscribers last time i read their patchnotes. for f2p invetory was very limited and inventory expansion could only be bought from cash shop or bought from other players, subscribers have a lot of inventory slots. there are lots of exclusive costumes in cash shop to make charcters look pretty. but i did not see any gears that could give plaeyrs any kind of power over in game gears. but still overall just becasue of the labor point system i will say AA maybe pay2win.
And now comes the 150$ founder pack of trion's AA...again, let me clarify : 150$ was charged for certain items and the name of the items people wouldl recieve was written on the package description. even after reading the description if someone theought with 150$ they bought the entire game then that person is an idiot.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Why do people on these forums so badly at reding comprehension? The OP said that even after paying 150 bucks and a subscription you still need to pay for things like storage expansion. Now this is greed and it is wrong. If I am paying for the box and a sub fee I expect to not have to but essential stuff like storage from their cash shop.
And yet you have people talking about how the OP didn't want to pay anything. Are you guys trolling or something or 150 for the box and a 15 sub fee is considered nothing???
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by fivoroth Why do people on these forums so badly at reding comprehension? The OP said that even after paying 150 bucks and a subscription you still need to pay for things like storage expansion. Now this is greed and it is wrong. If I am paying for the box and a sub fee I expect to not have to but essential stuff like storage from their cash shop.
And yet you have people talking about how the OP didn't want to pay anything. Are you guys trolling or something or 150 for the box and a 15 sub fee is considered nothing???
Yup. While I don't necessarily agree with the OP in full, I can see his point and think it is a legitimate concern. Even more concerning though are peoples lack of comprehension for what he is trying to say and instead would rather argue what THEIR idea of what P2W actually is even though many, including myself, view it in grays and not so black and white as " Mythical gear with uber 1 shot super mass destruction weapons from the cash shop". Semantics aside (and admittedly it was hard to read the OP's posts) I get his point and agree that charging a sub and then charging subscribers additional money for bag space or "conveniences" is a slippery slope that pushes the boundaries of acceptability. At the same time until we know for sure what all is in the cash shop then there is no need to bring out the pitchforks just yet.
Originally posted by fivoroth Why do people on these forums so badly at reding comprehension? The OP said that even after paying 150 bucks and a subscription you still need to pay for things like storage expansion. Now this is greed and it is wrong. If I am paying for the box and a sub fee I expect to not have to but essential stuff like storage from their cash shop.
And yet you have people talking about how the OP didn't want to pay anything. Are you guys trolling or something or 150 for the box and a 15 sub fee is considered nothing???
You can use the money you get from the "box sale" to purchase whatever you want. No extra money spent.
Quite a sight seeing people defending Trion:) Anyways, most likely patrons will be getting all their necessary stuff and more from the patron only shop. A sub should definitely give all even remotely necessary stuff and some more. However, subbing shouldn't be used as an excuse to demand that the game is faster and easier than what the devs have intended.
As for calling the game p2w, that depends on the definition. I'd say that technically as long as they advertise the game as f2p, they should try to make the difference between f2p and p2p reasonable. It could be argued that for an f2p ArcheAge, subscribing (paying) does give unreasonable advantages. The thing is, they should drop advertising it as f2p or they should make the difference far more reasonable.
There is no clear definition for p2w/f2p, but it would be in the interest of both the industry and the gamers to thrive for one. EU made some calls for the mobile dungeon keeper, but I'd guess any sort of clear legislation concerning it is far off. DK was just doing it in an exceptionally putrid way. In any case, Trion is showing some bad taste and should be moving faster about this. They did say they are discussing with XL about LP regen. I hope that includes the potions.
Anyway, I'd guess XL's f2p model might be one of the reasons for the game's well being in Korea. Wonder what they are thinking...
I'm happy with my subscription game currently. All these f2p, hybrids, with their cash shops and strange way to pay for this and that. People telling you what is and what isn't P2W. New content that is mainly for random crap on the store.
Neverwinter Nights Online was a good game but they did not have a subscription option. Instead they bombarded you daily with items and you were afraid to throw things away and would be forced to buy bags. I did not like that I would have paid $15 monthly gladly but doing it the way they did ended with me dropping the game. I suppose they get more people with the f2p model and after they are committed most will pay you see. They are probably making more money that way than a subscription based game.
Subscriptions should give me benefits over a F2P . The F2P need to be restricted otherwise why am I paying a sub ?
I will definitely try AA before I will judge but I was on russian server for a while. Full of bots and cheaters like in every other F2P game. After BAN you can create new account in second and I dont think it will different in europe. Even subs based games where you have to buy whole new game for access have problem with this kind of people.
Still believe one day there will be serious sub based sandbox game with serious studio a lot of GM.
Anath - The patron status, or better the credits for it, will be tradable with other players. How is that pw2? You get the credits by playing so it's the same.
300 - labor pot - gain 1000 labor back, cooldown 12 hr - you're buying labor points and labor points just basically = money and progress.
300 - vocation xp tonic - gain 100% xp from labor for 1h - you can basically speed boost lvling via crafting, its not as bad as straight up buying labor but it's still going to progress you further
80 - (variety of different drop rate honor, xplossprevention, production items) time 60 mins - basically buying boosts, not the worst but still a p2w feature
45 - 5 tax certificates - used for well anything a tax certificate is used for like paying taxes - means you can just bypass having to make them and gives an advantage to people who buy them, this one is not really terrible either because only patrons can have land.
Over all its not terribly p2w but the main ones like the labor are definitely p2w - Over all I personally like the feel of the marketplace i also think its going in the right direction but needs more customization stuff - would like to see race changing in as well.
GuardianAngle - there is the 1month patron item and other things which you can basically just sell for gold
It's hard to get the gist of whats going on..but..
If you're paying the sub, there shouldn't be an option to further progress your character in the cash shop. You should on an even playing field with a subscription. If that's the case, then fine. If you're paying the sub and you're also able to buy some kind of boost in the shop, the game is already destined to fail, so I highly doubt that would be the case.
It's hard to get the gist of whats going on..but..
If you're paying the sub, there shouldn't be an option to further progress your character in the cash shop. You should on an even playing field with a subscription. If that's the case, then fine. If you're paying the sub and you're also able to buy some kind of boost in the shop, the game is already destined to fail, so I highly doubt that would be the case.
Maybe but to the part in red, never doubt greed and human stupidity.
It's hard to get the gist of whats going on..but..
If you're paying the sub, there shouldn't be an option to further progress your character in the cash shop. You should on an even playing field with a subscription. If that's the case, then fine. If you're paying the sub and you're also able to buy some kind of boost in the shop, the game is already destined to fail, so I highly doubt that would be the case.
Maybe but to the part in red, never doubt greed and human stupidity.
Originally posted by bcbully You didnt know? f2p now means box, sub, and cash shop.
I swear on my life this is the first one I noticed this overly aggressive "F2P" business. I know they are other examples *cough*mobiles*cough* but I would never think they would go this far.
One poster said "I can't wait for the F2P crowd to leave" which I am starting to agree the more shit I see. Even Firefall has got "early access 100 pounds package" I mean lol.
So now that the cash shop items are out and a majority of them are cosmetic with yes some giving bonuses I am still not seeing this as a p2w game.
And OP from how you originally started this thread it almost seems as you are changing your tune, maybe I am wrong there but nothing in the shop at this time is an "I Win" item. Sure gives you some bonuses if you buy them, lets see spend money get a bonus, play for free and still can do things but at the normal game pace. No problem.
FFXIV isn't the best game, but at least they don't have that type of idiocy.
They have said, on multiple occasions, that they set the price high as a barrier to entry because they only wanted a single alpha server. So many people were willing to pay it, they had to put up a second alpha server, and both are busy.
As you grow up, you will learn that prices are often set in order to make an item or service more exclusive, not just based on intrinsic value. This is often called a "luxury purchase". Nothing wrong with it, if there is a market.
Comments
This whole thread is based on misinformation and ignorance.
1. Nobody even knows what is going to be sold in the cash shop yet. It won't be exactly the same as in the other regions running the game.
2 Trion has stated all along that there definitely won't be pay to win items.
3 Most important of all: There will be two shops. One funded by real world cash, the other funded by Loyalty points that people paying a sub get every day they log in. Many of the things players need will be able to be funded at no extra charge from that source.
Until we know what will be available in each shop posts like the OP one here are pure uninformed speculation.
Yeap... and then he bring up Riot Games as a example for good behaivor.. although Riot is milking their players with their champions sale in comparsion to Valve's DoTA2. And yeah.. you can't compare F2P MOBA with F2P MMO, but only F2P MOBA with F2P MOBA and F2P MMO with F2P MMP.. because they have other requirements... like different development cost, different amount of players playing it, different requirement of money per user.
Tell me OP where i can buy the Mythical gear with uber 1 shot super mass destruction weapons from the cash shop ?
Oh darn.........only cosmetic fluffy bunny gimmicks.....no weapons of mass destruction......
Seems i have to craft those items then !
Oh and its a subscription mmo !!! you know !!! where you pay a few euro and have full acces instead of Pay to Enjoy shit free to play games !!!
Trion has made excellent decisions on Archeage
keep that hate comming man, i know its hard to find a job and pay for that astronomical 12 euro a month.......
The things i could do with that amount of money....
1x bacardi cola = 8 euro
1x pack of smokes 9 euro
damn i am already at 17 euro now
for 1 drink and 1 pack of smokes.....that last 6 minutes and 1 day.
Instead i pay 12 euro and get at least 20 days worth of entertainment !!!!
What a ripoff from Trion !!!!
I have read patch notes of korean version of the game and i believe that the f2p model of AA is "only just a little" better than swtor. AA don't try to charge for qiuckbar or any kind of UI modification and of course not quest reward but other than that if someone really wants to enjoy AA to fullest they must subscribe. for labor point in korean version there are items that directly give labor points and those items have huge cooldown and price was absurd even in korean version. farming and housing and ship building was restricted only to subscribers last time i read their patchnotes. for f2p invetory was very limited and inventory expansion could only be bought from cash shop or bought from other players, subscribers have a lot of inventory slots. there are lots of exclusive costumes in cash shop to make charcters look pretty. but i did not see any gears that could give plaeyrs any kind of power over in game gears. but still overall just becasue of the labor point system i will say AA maybe pay2win.
And now comes the 150$ founder pack of trion's AA...again, let me clarify : 150$ was charged for certain items and the name of the items people wouldl recieve was written on the package description. even after reading the description if someone theought with 150$ they bought the entire game then that person is an idiot.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
And yet you have people talking about how the OP didn't want to pay anything. Are you guys trolling or something or 150 for the box and a 15 sub fee is considered nothing???
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Yup. While I don't necessarily agree with the OP in full, I can see his point and think it is a legitimate concern. Even more concerning though are peoples lack of comprehension for what he is trying to say and instead would rather argue what THEIR idea of what P2W actually is even though many, including myself, view it in grays and not so black and white as " Mythical gear with uber 1 shot super mass destruction weapons from the cash shop". Semantics aside (and admittedly it was hard to read the OP's posts) I get his point and agree that charging a sub and then charging subscribers additional money for bag space or "conveniences" is a slippery slope that pushes the boundaries of acceptability. At the same time until we know for sure what all is in the cash shop then there is no need to bring out the pitchforks just yet.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
You can use the money you get from the "box sale" to purchase whatever you want. No extra money spent.
Quite a sight seeing people defending Trion:) Anyways, most likely patrons will be getting all their necessary stuff and more from the patron only shop. A sub should definitely give all even remotely necessary stuff and some more. However, subbing shouldn't be used as an excuse to demand that the game is faster and easier than what the devs have intended.
As for calling the game p2w, that depends on the definition. I'd say that technically as long as they advertise the game as f2p, they should try to make the difference between f2p and p2p reasonable. It could be argued that for an f2p ArcheAge, subscribing (paying) does give unreasonable advantages. The thing is, they should drop advertising it as f2p or they should make the difference far more reasonable.
There is no clear definition for p2w/f2p, but it would be in the interest of both the industry and the gamers to thrive for one. EU made some calls for the mobile dungeon keeper, but I'd guess any sort of clear legislation concerning it is far off. DK was just doing it in an exceptionally putrid way. In any case, Trion is showing some bad taste and should be moving faster about this. They did say they are discussing with XL about LP regen. I hope that includes the potions.
Anyway, I'd guess XL's f2p model might be one of the reasons for the game's well being in Korea. Wonder what they are thinking...
I'm happy with my subscription game currently. All these f2p, hybrids, with their cash shops and strange way to pay for this and that. People telling you what is and what isn't P2W. New content that is mainly for random crap on the store.
I just want to pay a sub and play the damn game.
F2P is a trick bottom line !
It's sad but MMOs will soon be a thing of the past for me
I don't support greed,
If I had 10 million dollars, and someone came out with a good flavored water, but it cost $3 for a 6 oz bottle. I would drink regular water.
Neverwinter Nights Online was a good game but they did not have a subscription option. Instead they bombarded you daily with items and you were afraid to throw things away and would be forced to buy bags. I did not like that I would have paid $15 monthly gladly but doing it the way they did ended with me dropping the game. I suppose they get more people with the f2p model and after they are committed most will pay you see. They are probably making more money that way than a subscription based game.
Subscriptions should give me benefits over a F2P . The F2P need to be restricted otherwise why am I paying a sub ?
+1 for subs based games
I will definitely try AA before I will judge but I was on russian server for a while. Full of bots and cheaters like in every other F2P game. After BAN you can create new account in second and I dont think it will different in europe. Even subs based games where you have to buy whole new game for access have problem with this kind of people.
Still believe one day there will be serious sub based sandbox game with serious studio a lot of GM.
the bitch is they want to milk you dry by forceing them to pay and pay and pay till ft wo any buying is preety unlayable
Lots of games get away with far less cash whoreing they could of just went the founder Packs and Sub route(AS OPTION NOT MANDATORY) with cosmetics
Anath - The patron status, or better the credits for it, will be tradable with other players. How is that pw2? You get the credits by playing so it's the same.
Oh boy.
Really?
Do you use a bank?
Did you ever bought a AAA game?
Do you have a car?
Do you have health insurance?
... There is no way not to support greed unless you live in a cave.
Asuna - Cost - item - use - why
Over all its not terribly p2w but the main ones like the labor are definitely p2w - Over all I personally like the feel of the marketplace i also think its going in the right direction but needs more customization stuff - would like to see race changing in as well.
GuardianAngle - there is the 1month patron item and other things which you can basically just sell for gold
Best Convenient Store ever - http://forums.archeagegame.com/showthread.php?16916-Trion-s-Cashshop-Full-list-Prices-%28-and-%80%29-and-Feedback
It's hard to get the gist of whats going on..but..
If you're paying the sub, there shouldn't be an option to further progress your character in the cash shop. You should on an even playing field with a subscription. If that's the case, then fine. If you're paying the sub and you're also able to buy some kind of boost in the shop, the game is already destined to fail, so I highly doubt that would be the case.
he wants everything for free without having to spend a dime for it.. not greedy at all! xD
I had fun once, it was terrible.
Maybe but to the part in red, never doubt greed and human stupidity.
http://i.imgur.com/GEV2quY.jpg
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Saw it yesterday. Well made.
I swear on my life this is the first one I noticed this overly aggressive "F2P" business. I know they are other examples *cough*mobiles*cough* but I would never think they would go this far.
One poster said "I can't wait for the F2P crowd to leave" which I am starting to agree the more shit I see. Even Firefall has got "early access 100 pounds package" I mean lol.
So now that the cash shop items are out and a majority of them are cosmetic with yes some giving bonuses I am still not seeing this as a p2w game.
And OP from how you originally started this thread it almost seems as you are changing your tune, maybe I am wrong there but nothing in the shop at this time is an "I Win" item. Sure gives you some bonuses if you buy them, lets see spend money get a bonus, play for free and still can do things but at the normal game pace. No problem.
They have said, on multiple occasions, that they set the price high as a barrier to entry because they only wanted a single alpha server. So many people were willing to pay it, they had to put up a second alpha server, and both are busy.
As you grow up, you will learn that prices are often set in order to make an item or service more exclusive, not just based on intrinsic value. This is often called a "luxury purchase". Nothing wrong with it, if there is a market.