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The state of MMOs 2014 - "A buffet for the masses".

0effort0effort NicosiaPosts: 103Member

If your argument involves sales and numbers and all that finance jazz then you would have no issue admitting that Candy Crush and Flappy Bird are one of the greatest games in the history of gaming. In that respect, sales and numbers do not mean it is a good thing nor mean it is a good game. Cheap or free does not guarantee quality either.

We all knew what would happen when Free 2 Play came around and mostly MMOers from the new age, were so passionate about the idea of FREE as if it meant FREEDOM and the whole mainstream press was embracing something in the same lines. What is ironical though that the same press and new MMoers alike are steadily reaching the same conclusion - they are all reaching the same wall that old MMOers reached when the MMO market was in a stale condition.

"We are bored. We need more. We want more".

Free to play market has been absolutely nothing but fireworks and all it has done is apply reverse engineering - instead of progressing forward to a more complete and unified MMOrpg culture it has dissected that genre into snacks and bites with incomplete PVE & PVP and hidden content through paywalls and paypals. Every single Free 2 Play MMOrpg right now is incomplete and lacks usually basic tools such as a good group finder.

Progression has been reversed and that is exactly why we have got a shitton of MMOrpgs with disgusting graphics, generic and limited character customization, unpolished combat and animations and bad level designs and environments. Calling the F2P scene as mediocre would be a flattery.  In all fronts of story and gameplay the F2P market will make sure that there is always going to be a core expectation missing in order to build up hype for the next generation of gamers.

Therefore we are in this unfortunate situation where WildStar and Final Fantasy: A realm reborn are considered the "best" or have got the most players because they are the most complete MMOrpgs in the market and not a half-ass MMOG. That does not mean they are revolutionary but at least they are heading the right direction.

While the West patiently waits for Phantasy Star Online 2, Blade & Soul, Star Citizen, Destiny (for PC) and Kindom Under Fire II, we are stuck taking breaks by playing other MMOs not of our genre because of lack of competition. And that is where all the juice is at. It is easy to state "No one is forcing you" but when you have no options and there is no competition, you are forced to adapt and not just adapt.  We are not only forced to play those MMOs because there is nothing else good on the market, we are also forced to play niche games with low or unhealthy population such as ArcheAge so time can somehow fly faster.

This has been one of the most ludicrous (for the business), subpar (for the genre) and ridiculous state of gaming where manipulative products of P2W dominate. This is like Steam flooded with indie games to justify that PC gaming is doing good and it still has the most exclusive titles when in reality most of them are byproducts of easy, cheap and intentionally lazy development. And in that respect, MMO is still is a moneycash grabbing  scheme like a bad Kickstarter project.

The pipe dream lives on.

 

 

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Comments

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    One thing I must dissagree with you on is the snipe at Indie games.

     

    very simple and cheap games like the one linked below were extremely fun and enjoyable. 

     

     

    It's about a puddle of liquid and all your controls are tilting the camera left and right to drive it. A very trivial concept for 10 bucks...and I found it extremely fun.

     

    image

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Clap clap clap. I agree with nothing you said but I commend you on the elegance of your delivery

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member
    Originally posted by 0effort
     Every single Free 2 Play MMOrpg right now is incomplete and lacks usually basic tools such as a good group finder.

    think the Op has not tried ftp RIFT

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon

    Its easy to spot a weak argument with the overuse of "we". Learn to speak for yourself.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by apocoluster
    Clap clap clap. I agree with nothing you said but I commend you on the elegance of your delivery

    Same here. While I don't agree with the content, it was really enjoyable to read. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

     

    You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • TyggsTyggs Syracuse, NYPosts: 412Member Common
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

     

    You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    Also, a 15 second advertisement on primetime TV is more expensive than hiring 3 developers for 3 years worth of work.

    SWTOR Referral Link

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  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
     

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
     

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    Depends on what kind of indies we're looking at really. Indie MMO's quite typically are made with a small subset of players in mind, like those looking for FFA PVP with full loot. ON the other hand you have indies like Flower, or Journey that are simply original quirky ideas, that actually sell really well despite a lack of advertising dollars. They sell well because of word of mouth, and glowing reviews. Word of mouth can be far more powerful long term, in building an install base. Again look to games like Flower or Journey or even Minecraft.

    If an Indie doesn't pick up steam there's usually a reason. That reason is typically due to the design and aim of the project. Games with a high amount of player griefing as an example, will never really see massive success long term IMO.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

     

    You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    I like facts now you have said this statement multiple times but I am wondering could you please provide some information, links, articles that backs up your claim that AAA devs spend more on advertisements than the game itself.  Now to make back a statement like this we are going to need multiple games reference because you are lumping all AAA DEVS into that statement.  Now I'm not saying you are wrong but to help out until you provide the information you should probably stop saying it.  Because saying a lie a 1000 times does NOT make it true.  

    I really wish people would do some research before calling someone a liar. I also think there is a wikipedia article that says for large games the advertising budget is larger than that development budget but I am still looking.

    So now are you ready to apoligize ?

     

    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Tim-Schafer-Compares-Past-Video-Game-Budgets-Current-Budgets-39474.html

    From the article: 

    Nowadays, a huge portion of a game's budget resides in marketing, in fact, for some games, 200% of the budget will go into marketing while the game itself will cost anywhere between $10 and $20 million to actually design and produce. 

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
     

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

    advertising is a huge business and the reason it is is because it works. There is much more to advertising then just making you aware that a game exists. There is also product loyalty manipulation and things of that sort. There is also a lot of money being spent in areas that you are not directly even aware of. 

    I think (although I dont know for sure) that most people who shy away from indies do it strickly because they BELIEVE the games should be better if they are higher budget or because they believe that they should play them. More so then actually playing them and giving them a fair shake. Now granted this is my assumption, not factual by any stretch. Part of why I beleive this is because I used to believe if.

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
     

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    I know about most indie games, I don't play them because so far they're not making the types of games I'm interested in. I doubt many people that frequent gaming sites have never heard of games like worm etc. They still don't seem to be playing them. So lack of advertising obviously isn't the only reason these indie games don't appeal to the masses.

    advertising is a huge business and the reason it is is because it works. There is much more to advertising then just making you aware that a game exists. There is also product loyalty manipulation and things of that sort. There is also a lot of money being spent in areas that you are not directly even aware of. 

    I think (although I dont know for sure) that most people who shy away from indies do it strickly because they BELIEVE the games should be better if they are higher budget or because they believe that they should play them. More so then actually playing them and giving them a fair shake. Now granted this is my assumption, not factual by any stretch. Part of why I beleive this is because I used to believe if.

     

    Clearly advertising works or they wouldn't spend what they do on it.  But I don't think just advertising something makes it a huge hit. WoW for example isn't popular because of it's ads on TV, it's popular because of what the game offers. 

    I'll agree with you that many people don't try indie games and advertising would change that, but keeping them in the game after is 100% on the game itself. That is where they lose me. So in your original statement that they're not popular because of a lack of advertising...I'll still have to disagree. Like others have posted. Even without it a good game will grow it's population. Not many indie's can make that claim.

  • nbtscannbtscan Phoenix, AZPosts: 774Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by allday88
    I like facts now you have said this statement multiple times but I am wondering could you please provide some information, links, articles that backs up your claim that AAA devs spend more on advertisements than the game itself.  Now to make back a statement like this we are going to need multiple games reference because you are lumping all AAA DEVS into that statement.  Now I'm not saying you are wrong but to help out until you provide the information you should probably stop saying it.  Because saying a lie a 1000 times does NOT make it true.  

    Activision dumped $500 million into Destiny for marketing purposes, so there's that.

    Anyway, to respond to the post all I have is this old saying:  "You get what you pay for."  This sums up F2P games in a nutshell since you only have a very small fraction of the people playing them actually putting forth any money while the vast majority of your players are freeloaders contributing nothing.  

    This is why their quality will never match a "good" sub game because they will never have a stable amount of income and have to prioritize how they spend their money, opposed to having a developmental roadmap for the next year or two laid out because you know you're going to have a consistent stream of money coming in.

    I will happily continue to fork over my monthly sub to FFXIV if they continue to release the quality and quantity of content they have been up until now.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by allday88
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

     

    You again with the indie stuff...advertising...you know if these indie games were so awesome they would sell enough to do advertisement and increase their market but they aren't and they don't plain and simple. . I gave you a list of categories and games in each of those categories you have yet to name one game that is better...if the quality of things in said game suck well you can have a million things and the game would still suck. Now until you have some facts or examples of which games are better than please stop with this indie crap. Thanks now go back to crafting you boat and sail away.

    lol..

    now that logic was funny.

    why do they not sell more? BECAUSE THE MASSES DONT KNOW THEY EXIST..

    why do the masses not know they exist? BECAUSE THEY DONT ADVERTISE.

    For AAA games advertising is more important than the game itself. this is why they spend more money on adds then they do game development. Advertising makes a huge difference.

    I like facts now you have said this statement multiple times but I am wondering could you please provide some information, links, articles that backs up your claim that AAA devs spend more on advertisements than the game itself.  Now to make back a statement like this we are going to need multiple games reference because you are lumping all AAA DEVS into that statement.  Now I'm not saying you are wrong but to help out until you provide the information you should probably stop saying it.  Because saying a lie a 1000 times does NOT make it true.  

    I really wish people would do some research before calling someone a liar. I also think there is a wikipedia article that says for large games the advertising budget is larger than that development budget but I am still looking.

    So now are you ready to apoligize ?

     

    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Tim-Schafer-Compares-Past-Video-Game-Budgets-Current-Budgets-39474.html

    From the article: 

    Nowadays, a huge portion of a game's budget resides in marketing, in fact, for some games, 200% of the budget will go into marketing while the game itself will cost anywhere between $10 and $20 million to actually design and produce. 

     

    Ok jumping the sensitivity gun a little bit there. I didn't call you a liar a matter a fact I said " I am not saying you are wrong".

    Now I'm not making the claim you are I just asked for some info to back up what you are saying. But instead you post a link to where you get your rhetoric from. I asked for links, information not once in that article did he provide any just a bunch of numbers thrown together in an effort to back up your rhetoric, who knows maybe you even wrote that... 

     

    Anywho anytime you want to post any legit facts feel free...

    do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

    poster 1: please post proof

    poster 2: posts a link

    poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

    is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    ]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comicalposter 1: please post proofposter 2: posts a linkposter 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link? 

    I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    ]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

     

    poster 1: please post proof

    poster 2: posts a link

    poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

    is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

     


     

    I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

     

    +1

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    ]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

     

    poster 1: please post proof

    poster 2: posts a link

    poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

    is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

     


     

    I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

     

    +1

    I swear to god I will never post a link again.

    you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.

    The double standard some of you show is amazing...

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    I swear to god I will never post a link again.you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.The double standard some of you show is amazing...

    Im just saying that in my experiences, discussions here are a lot more productive when the focus is less on trying to be right and more about conveying personal experience to support a point of view.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    If FF:ARR is a step in any direction, it's down, but it's not right.  Especially because it's more "complete".  A moldy sandwich is still a whole sandwich, doesn't mean I want to eat it.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    I swear to god I will never post a link again.

     

    you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.

    The double standard some of you show is amazing...


     

    Im just saying that in my experiences, discussions here are a lot more productive when the focus is less on trying to be right and more about conveying personal experience to support a point of view.

    here on the MMORPG forums its insanely popular to post comments as facts without any links to back it up. I should start calling people out on it. I have let it slip far to long. Far to long have people been asking of me what they will not ask of themselves. They state opinions as facts then attack others for doing EXACTLY the same thing. 

    Even when someone posts an article that shows the point people will make the choice to only believe what they want to believe despite having never read anything from anyplace to give that assumption justification and then they walk around as if its fact.

    I have ignored that hypocracy to long

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    I swear to god I will never post a link again.

     

    you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.

    The double standard some of you show is amazing...


     

    Im just saying that in my experiences, discussions here are a lot more productive when the focus is less on trying to be right and more about conveying personal experience to support a point of view.

    here on the MMORPG forums its insanely popular to post comments as facts without any links to back it up. I should start calling people out on it. I have let it slip far to long. Far to long have people been asking of me what they will not ask of themselves. They state opinions as facts then attack others for doing EXACTLY the same thing. 

    Even when someone posts an article that shows the point people will make the choice to only believe what they want to believe despite having never read anything from anyplace to give that assumption justification and then they walk around as if its fact.

    I have ignored that hypocracy to long

    You should probably keep ignoring it.  People are generally opinionated hypocrites and that goes double for gamers, and it goes triple for MMO gamers.  Don't lose any sleep over it.

    Foomerang is also correct in the highlighted portion.  I mean, the only reason people love to quote financial reports, for example, is because there's more evidence that their "side" is "winning" and thus they win teh interwebs.  The rest is just farts in the breeze, really.

    Take my post.  I hated FF:ARR and think it's a joke that someone said it's taking the genre in the right direction.  Am I right?  Do I care?  The game was almost paralyzing in its boredom to me and I just prefer not to think of the horizon being a bunch of stand-still-to-cast-zzzz crap.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    ]do you have any idea how predictable it is for this to happen. Its so common place its almost comical

     

    poster 1: please post proof

    poster 2: posts a link

    poster 1: article is biased. I will believe what I want to believe without having any evidence at all to back up what I believe.

    is it really any wonder why poster 2 gets a little pissed off when they have to spend 30mins looking for one link?

     


     

    I dunno, maybe you shouldnt present your opinions as facts and then back them up with further opinion pieces. Its ok to have a respectable opinion. I wont shoot you down just because you're saying how you feel about something from your observations. Let it go, man. Dont worry about being heard so much. We can all read here (hopefully).

     

    +1

    I swear to god I will never post a link again.

    you all want to believe whatever comes to your head without having read a single article to suggest you might actually might be right...that is how you guys role and that is not the soup I swim in.

    The double standard some of you show is amazing...

    What double standard would that be? Everything I wrote earlier was based on many articles about games like Flower, Journey and Minecraft, that have led to positive word of mouth advertising and massive sales. Either way what I wrote was still mostly opinion based, and not based on actual facts. Hence why I would not attempt to state my post as being fact. It's an opinion formed from what I've read and seen.

     

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • 0effort0effort NicosiaPosts: 103Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

    Anything good needs cash or some type of a strong long run investment . Some happened to be exceptions aka Minecraft and they made it through word of mouth. That does not mean Minecraft is the greatest sandbox construction game but Minecraft like World of Warcraft in that time filled a massive void. And as long as there is this massive void, there will be millions of players playing both of them.

    In every crisis or stale period, there are opportunities that whoever is the fastest and the smarter hits gold. If we had Star Citizen the same time with EVE Online, EVE would be nothing than a major niche game. Some MMOrpgs are good at doing that - filling up a hole through a period of crisis or stale in the market. When things get better players will move on. 

    Option is always good but when within any genre the minority dominates that is unhealthy. It is unhealthy because as soon as one MMOrpg fulfills the gap, the rest will get wiped, studios will close down, jobs will be lost and so on and so forth. And there are two huge gaps - making a complete MMOrpg in general and making great MMOrpg according to the theme. If right now someone released the closest thing to a Skyrim multiplayer, ESO Online would go bankrupt.

    Look at ArcheAge. Is it a successful game so far? It is but it will never be a true sandbox game and it will never have millions of subscribers because it never had that intention, not by the developers, but by the other parties (publisher(s), higher ups, ect). Companies right now will not allow for complete MMOs to appear because there is no need to because there is not a good competitive market and there are way too many gaps. Most MMOs are being made out of "opportunitism" - to take advantage -  of a thirst of a niche MMO group. The hardcore Lineage-esque crowd will support ArcheAge until there is a better game than that.

    That is the exact problem of this F2P culture - that as long as it exist, as long as there is no competition you will get unfinished products that cater to the "niche" and will do major updates every 3-5 years (i.e graphics update) because there is no need, no stress to improve when the market has not set a high bar. When the bar is low or average, the situation will not change unless someone steps up his game. That is why you will have ESO Online and SWOTOR being profitable as hell for many, and many years unless things progress.

    It is just a bubble waiting to be burst.

     

     

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by 0effort
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    a few things on this matter.

    1. Gaming is an art form. Measuring the quality of Art by dollars sold is when not even factoring in the affects of advertising is...well...terrible.

    2. Appealing to the masses is an element of the past. Its no longer a requirement to be successful. Now, good developers quit their jobs at the big firms and end up making MORE money as an indie then they would working for a AAA. This was not realistically as possible before digital distrubution became so wide spread. So now we are entering a phase where its easier for a small group of developers to focus on a small group of gamers and still make great money.

    3. If you measure quality of game by the amount of things you can do (which in general is what I do) then indies come out on top by a long shot.

     

    Anything good needs cash or some type of a strong long run investment . 

     

     

    1. 'good' is subjective.

    2. You are trusting that those people who invest money into a game know what good game and a bad game is simply because they have money.  AND that the person who wants to make a game on his own does not know what a good game is because he didnt get that other guy to agree with him......think about  that

    Correlation does not imply causation

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