Let's put it this way, I will be level 50 months before I am a master metalworker, even though I spend pretty much all my time farming, trading and crafting and almost never kill anything these days. Same goes for tractor, merchant ship, galleon, farm house, elite glider, etc.
..nad you still need lvls to do anything in the game as the game is based on levels. You cannot craft more/new/more powerful items unless you are required level.
All is level based.
to be fair sandbox games I have played all have a 'level' system. Although not called a level its still progress. To become a better crafter you need to 'level' that skill. i dont know of any sandbox mmo game that does do that other than second life.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Can't speak for other two as I haven't played them nor know much about them.
Sandbox implies no progression. EVE is an example of that. There is no progression, you do not level up from frigate to capital ship. There is no power curve, only tools and specialization, same goes for crafting.
Eve is also a level based game.
In fact, its even more 'level' dependent that other games because you can make the progress move faster by actually playing . you have to wait a set time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Eve is also a level based game.In fact, its even more 'level' dependent that other games because you can make the progress move faster by actually playing . you have to wait a set time.
In fact, its even more 'level' dependent that other games because you can make the progress move faster by actually playing . you have to wait a set time.
You do not understand how the game works.
yes..its level based. skill points grow and you apply them so that you can do other things.
that is a level based system. what do you think a level system is?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Of course there is progression in eve. what do you think the skill point system is for?
Read above...
there is most certiantly progression in eve. Why do you think I am letting my skills increase for a Tech 3 ship so I can move to a worm hole? because its a level based system just like all other games are but scripted a little different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD there is most certiantly progression in eve. Why do you think I am letting my skills increase for a Tech 3 ship so I can move to a worm hole? because its a level based system just like all other games are but scripted a little different.
I guess there is no point replying to you as you are not even bothering to read the reply..
Originally posted by Datawarlock I propose a test for any game that has a sandbox claim to it. Let a cat play in it and see if it shits.
Cats are very particular about the sand they shit in... unlike gamers who will shit in anything.
Fast forward 30 days after the official release of AA in the west and this debate will no longer be of any importance... everyone, including the cats, will have moved on to the next new thing.
The term "Sandpark" has been created expressively for Archeage, because it is a combination of Sandbox and Themepark elements.
So Archeage is not a Sandbox............... it is better.
I believe that a successful modern MMORPG should be a mix between a Sandbox and a Themepark, and Archeage is a step toward the right direction.
I dunno Ste, Fallen Earth was being called a "sandpark" for a long time. Just saying.
Looking forward to giving this a go. Why not?
I would agree that SandPark is better...nope.
Having said that I did like Fallen Earth more than I like ArcheAge now that I have played it. However I havent been able to get to the whole sea thing yet other than swiming to an area that then kicked me back to spawn.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Or even name a single Sandbox element it contains.
First let me preface and say I"m in alpha, have been playing daily, and thoroughly enjoy the game for what it is....a large world battle arena to fight others for the sake of fighting. But this will run it's course very very soon. So I turn to the old arguement everyone falls back on when you bring up the glaring lack of content or "sandbox" tools if you will on the general forums.
"Archeage is a sandbox, if you need someone to hold your hand go back to WoW"
Ok, so I challenge you to name the sandbox elements in Archeage to drive player content. And to cross the big two right off the list, DAoC had essentially identical housing and custumizations...and noone would call it a sandbox. And the nothern continent mess of unimplemented idea is either a really shitty version of DAoC frontiers, or a really really really shitty version of territory control in Shadowbane by tree claiming.
So i will await your answers and just say that after the fun of having open PKing as an option wears off, it becomes very clear why this game is a barren wasteland in both RU and KR.
ArcheAge is a SandBox MMO because it matches the description of what a SandBox MMO is. Google "What is a sandbox MMORPG" and you get this link first:
According to that description, ArcheAge matches it exactly. If your description of what a SandBox MMO is different from the generally accepted description, then you may not say any MMORPG is a SandBox MMO.
The term "Sandpark" has been created expressively for Archeage, because it is a combination of Sandbox and Themepark elements.
So Archeage is not a Sandbox............... it is better.
I believe that a successful modern MMORPG should be a mix between a Sandbox and a Themepark, and Archeage is a step toward the right direction.
I dunno Ste, Fallen Earth was being called a "sandpark" for a long time. Just saying.
Looking forward to giving this a go. Why not?
I would agree that SandPark is better...nope.
Having said that I did like Fallen Earth more than I like ArcheAge now that I have played it. However I havent been able to get to the whole sea thing yet other than swiming to an area that then kicked me back to spawn.
That's OK with me, because Fallen Earth is one of my all time favorites. It's hard to beat IMO. I'll still give AA a try, though my expectations are pretty low.
Originally posted by Datawarlock I propose a test for any game that has a sandbox claim to it. Let a cat play in it and see if it shits.
Cats are very particular about the sand they shit in... unlike gamers who will shit in anything.
Fast forward 30 days after the official release of AA in the west and this debate will no longer be of any importance... everyone, including the cats, will have moved on to the next new thing.
i ran out of cat litter once and filled the box with grapenuts and my cat shit in it for weeks
Some of you are confusing "linearity", with "sandbox".
Linear Progression = single pathway to progress (usually leveling).
Sandbox = having building tools and/or having creation tools.
Alternate pathways to progression isn't what sandbox means.
Archeage does have alternate pathways, but that doesn't mean it's a sandbox mmo.
In Archeage, you cannot create, or build, in a "sandbox" environment. There isn't unrestricted Terraforming, or manipulation, of either the environment, or the content. There is only pre-determined "plots" that you can manipulate, with farming and housing, and it's very restrictive.
In a real-world sandbox, you have "tools", such as, a shovel, water, bucket, etc. The sand can be literally formed into your own creations. The only limitations are real-world physics and your imagination.
In virtual worlds, or MMOs:
"Sand" = content.
"Box" = environment.
If the "sand" cannot be manipulated, in the "box", it's not a sandbox.
I hope i cleared some misconceptions up.
(and yes, some of you will disagree, but that's okay.)
I realize this is a pipe-dream at this point, ever so slightly off topic, and will probably never be read by anyone, but:
I feel like a part of what is ruining the feeling of "emergent gameplay", i.e. that feeling of discovery and delight when discovering something new in a game, is ruined by the painfully intricate descriptions given out before these games ever release. No matter how many sandboxy elements your game has (and ArcheAge does in deed have some of these elements by my reckoning) there will be no sense of discovery, wonderment, and the fraternity and endearing emotion that those things inspire if every damn detail is known by the players before the game enters beta.
The average MMORPG player is, by nature, more inclined to number crunch and strategize before cracking the box than the average player in most game genres (excluding high-tier players). While game companies have always provided info to players who are inclined to know, never before has there been such a large MMO player-base or has there been as much free access to information.
Speaking from experience, my greatest MMO experiences have come from games that I knew next to nothing about pre-purchase. 1/2 the fun comes from entering and exploring an unknown and dangerous world, the other 1/2 from doing it with friends and making new ones. If we want to again be able to appreciate a living world with childlike awe, which I suspect a great number on this site want desperately to do, it might be a good start to suspend our disbelief for a few moments and simply appreciate these worlds for what they are, not what they are not.
Some of you are confusing "linearity", with "sandbox".
Linear Progression = single pathway to progress (usually leveling).
Sandbox = having building tools and/or having creation tools.
Alternate pathways to progression isn't what sandbox means.
Archeage does have alternate pathways, but that doesn't mean it's a sandbox mmo.
In Archeage, you cannot create, or build, in a "sandbox" environment. There isn't unrestricted Terraforming, or manipulation, of either the environment, or the content. There is only pre-determined "plots" that you can manipulate, with farming and housing, and it's very restrictive.
In a real-world sandbox, you have "tools", such as, a shovel, water, bucket, etc. The sand can be literally formed into your own creations. The only limitations are real-world physics and your imagination.
In virtual worlds, or MMOs:
"Sand" = content.
"Box" = environment.
If the "sand" cannot be manipulated, in the "box", it's not a sandbox.
I hope i cleared some misconceptions up.
(and yes, some of you will disagree, but that's okay.)
Not an expert on this, but you point seems to line up with what i thought was a sandbox type game. the majority of the world is created by the player, your given the tools and of you go. Hence the name "sandbox". Peria Chronicles is a good game to compare it to because every bit of content in the game is created by the players for the players, even the towns are created and designed by the players via terraforming.
From what i read Archage has snippets here and there that allow players to do as they please, but slightly restricted. Which imho wouldn't say is a fully sandbox type game, more of a hybrid maybe
Originally posted by Herase Not an expert on this, but you point seems to line up with what i thought was a sandbox type game. the majority of the world is created by the player, your given the tools and of you go. Hence the name "sandbox". Peria Chronicles is a good game to compare it to because every bit of content in the game is created by the players for the players, even the towns are created and designed by the players via terraforming. From what i read Archage has snippets here and there that allow players to do as they please, but slightly restricted. Which imho wouldn't say is a fully sandbox type game, more of a hybrid maybe
So terraforming+crafting = sandbox? Or even terraforming = sandbox?
Originally posted by Herase Not an expert on this, but you point seems to line up with what i thought was a sandbox type game. the majority of the world is created by the player, your given the tools and of you go. Hence the name "sandbox". Peria Chronicles is a good game to compare it to because every bit of content in the game is created by the players for the players, even the towns are created and designed by the players via terraforming.
From what i read Archage has snippets here and there that allow players to do as they please, but slightly restricted. Which imho wouldn't say is a fully sandbox type game, more of a hybrid maybe
So terraforming+crafting = sandbox? Or even terraforming = sandbox?
I do not think so...
???
I didn't just say terraforming and i didn't even say crafting. I said player made content, your given the tools to forge your own adventure/content. i pointed out Peria because the whole games content it made by the players and it goes as far as to let you build your own towns, VIA terraforming.
According to that description, ArcheAge matches it exactly. If your description of what a SandBox MMO is different from the generally accepted description, then you may not say any MMORPG is a SandBox MMO.
The very first sentence on that page states: "Sandbox Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) games are typically developed to give as much freedom and creative control to players as possible."
That very much contradicts what ArcheAge is directed toward with Labor Points and having specific zones for housing. Labor Points are handcuffs that limit the amount of progress players can do in non-combat scenerios. Where is the freedom there? In this regard, a good portion themeparks have more freedom in crafting, due to having no limiter on daily progress.
With the push of patch 1.2 to the alpha servers, the handcuffs became much tighter.
According to that description, ArcheAge matches it exactly. If your description of what a SandBox MMO is different from the generally accepted description, then you may not say any MMORPG is a SandBox MMO.
The very first sentence on that page states: "Sandbox Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) games are typically developed to give as much freedom and creative control to players as possible."
That very much contradicts what ArcheAge is directed toward with Labor Points and having specific zones for housing. Labor Points are handcuffs that limit the amount of progress players can do in non-combat scenerios. Where is the freedom there? In this regard, a good portion themeparks have more freedom in crafting, due to having no limiter on daily progress.
With the push of patch 1.2 to the alpha servers, the handcuffs became much tighter.
Labor points help to have an healthy economy. Without LPs the game economy would just be screwed. Farmers planting and gathering mats 24/7 flooding the ah with not enough exits for them. Grinders getting hundreds of gold from monster packs and adding to an already evident inflation problem. The LPs are fine as they are, the regen 10 every 5m (at release) will also be fine; because that's what we had until 1.2 already. After 1.2 you use more LPs for some stuff and less LPs for other stuff so it didn't really change much.
Labor points are vital, unless XL decides to add item decay; which will probably never happen.
Not to mention how useless and non existant is crafting in other games. Here crafting plays a very big role.
According to that description, ArcheAge matches it exactly. If your description of what a SandBox MMO is different from the generally accepted description, then you may not say any MMORPG is a SandBox MMO.
The very first sentence on that page states: "Sandbox Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) games are typically developed to give as much freedom and creative control to players as possible."
That very much contradicts what ArcheAge is directed toward with Labor Points and having specific zones for housing. Labor Points are handcuffs that limit the amount of progress players can do in non-combat scenerios. Where is the freedom there? In this regard, a good portion themeparks have more freedom in crafting, due to having no limiter on daily progress.
With the push of patch 1.2 to the alpha servers, the handcuffs became much tighter.
so yeah...
according to wiki and other sources I have read (which I do not agree with) GTA series is a sandbox. Well fine, if that is what they want to call it then we all need a word to describe the other games that make GTA series and ArcheAge look lineral. I dont care what that word is but that word has to exist.
that is my take on this subject anyway.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
to be fair sandbox games I have played all have a 'level' system. Although not called a level its still progress. To become a better crafter you need to 'level' that skill. i dont know of any sandbox mmo game that does do that other than second life.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Eve is also a level based game.
In fact, its even more 'level' dependent that other games because you can make the progress move faster by actually playing . you have to wait a set time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You do not understand how the game works.
yes..its level based. skill points grow and you apply them so that you can do other things.
that is a level based system. what do you think a level system is?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Progression.
...and as I pointed out, there is no progression in EVE.
I am starting to think you are trolling people.
Of course there is progression in eve. what do you think the skill point system is for?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Read above...
there is most certiantly progression in eve. Why do you think I am letting my skills increase for a Tech 3 ship so I can move to a worm hole? because its a level based system just like all other games are but scripted a little different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
See, you just don't understand. Wurm Online is not a sandbox either.
Eve is the One True Sandbox, because Eve is the only good game and sandbox = good.
If you don't agree, it is impossible to have a constructive conversation with you. I am Gdemami and it's my universe, you all are just living in it.
I guess there is no point replying to you as you are not even bothering to read the reply..
I dunno Ste, Fallen Earth was being called a "sandpark" for a long time. Just saying.
Looking forward to giving this a go. Why not?
Joined - July 2004
Cats are very particular about the sand they shit in... unlike gamers who will shit in anything.
Fast forward 30 days after the official release of AA in the west and this debate will no longer be of any importance... everyone, including the cats, will have moved on to the next new thing.
I would agree that SandPark is better...nope.
Having said that I did like Fallen Earth more than I like ArcheAge now that I have played it. However I havent been able to get to the whole sea thing yet other than swiming to an area that then kicked me back to spawn.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
ArcheAge is a SandBox MMO because it matches the description of what a SandBox MMO is. Google "What is a sandbox MMORPG" and you get this link first:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-sandbox-mmo.htm
According to that description, ArcheAge matches it exactly. If your description of what a SandBox MMO is different from the generally accepted description, then you may not say any MMORPG is a SandBox MMO.
That's OK with me, because Fallen Earth is one of my all time favorites. It's hard to beat IMO. I'll still give AA a try, though my expectations are pretty low.
Joined - July 2004
i ran out of cat litter once and filled the box with grapenuts and my cat shit in it for weeks
Some of you are confusing "linearity", with "sandbox".
I realize this is a pipe-dream at this point, ever so slightly off topic, and will probably never be read by anyone, but:
I feel like a part of what is ruining the feeling of "emergent gameplay", i.e. that feeling of discovery and delight when discovering something new in a game, is ruined by the painfully intricate descriptions given out before these games ever release. No matter how many sandboxy elements your game has (and ArcheAge does in deed have some of these elements by my reckoning) there will be no sense of discovery, wonderment, and the fraternity and endearing emotion that those things inspire if every damn detail is known by the players before the game enters beta.
The average MMORPG player is, by nature, more inclined to number crunch and strategize before cracking the box than the average player in most game genres (excluding high-tier players). While game companies have always provided info to players who are inclined to know, never before has there been such a large MMO player-base or has there been as much free access to information.
Speaking from experience, my greatest MMO experiences have come from games that I knew next to nothing about pre-purchase. 1/2 the fun comes from entering and exploring an unknown and dangerous world, the other 1/2 from doing it with friends and making new ones. If we want to again be able to appreciate a living world with childlike awe, which I suspect a great number on this site want desperately to do, it might be a good start to suspend our disbelief for a few moments and simply appreciate these worlds for what they are, not what they are not.
I'm gonna go with a car accident in your youth,
so I can finally make sense with hundreds of nonsense posts you generated.
Not an expert on this, but you point seems to line up with what i thought was a sandbox type game. the majority of the world is created by the player, your given the tools and of you go. Hence the name "sandbox". Peria Chronicles is a good game to compare it to because every bit of content in the game is created by the players for the players, even the towns are created and designed by the players via terraforming.
From what i read Archage has snippets here and there that allow players to do as they please, but slightly restricted. Which imho wouldn't say is a fully sandbox type game, more of a hybrid maybe
So terraforming+crafting = sandbox? Or even terraforming = sandbox?
I do not think so...
???
I didn't just say terraforming and i didn't even say crafting. I said player made content, your given the tools to forge your own adventure/content. i pointed out Peria because the whole games content it made by the players and it goes as far as to let you build your own towns, VIA terraforming.
The very first sentence on that page states: "Sandbox Massively Multiplayer Online (MMO) games are typically developed to give as much freedom and creative control to players as possible."
That very much contradicts what ArcheAge is directed toward with Labor Points and having specific zones for housing. Labor Points are handcuffs that limit the amount of progress players can do in non-combat scenerios. Where is the freedom there? In this regard, a good portion themeparks have more freedom in crafting, due to having no limiter on daily progress.
With the push of patch 1.2 to the alpha servers, the handcuffs became much tighter.
Labor points help to have an healthy economy. Without LPs the game economy would just be screwed. Farmers planting and gathering mats 24/7 flooding the ah with not enough exits for them. Grinders getting hundreds of gold from monster packs and adding to an already evident inflation problem. The LPs are fine as they are, the regen 10 every 5m (at release) will also be fine; because that's what we had until 1.2 already. After 1.2 you use more LPs for some stuff and less LPs for other stuff so it didn't really change much.
Labor points are vital, unless XL decides to add item decay; which will probably never happen.
Not to mention how useless and non existant is crafting in other games. Here crafting plays a very big role.
so yeah...
according to wiki and other sources I have read (which I do not agree with) GTA series is a sandbox. Well fine, if that is what they want to call it then we all need a word to describe the other games that make GTA series and ArcheAge look lineral. I dont care what that word is but that word has to exist.
that is my take on this subject anyway.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me