the very games(pre wow) the OP was talking about as the hey day of social interaction never did actively manage social interaction, they merely stayed out of the way. I think some of the confusion is he thinks time sinks, dead time were social management features. They actually had nothing to do with social engineering from a developer standpoint, they were content extensions, one of the reasons it took months/years to reach max level in those games.
What you basically said is that we did an amazing job, because you had no idea we were even doing it.
Thank you!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by BMBenderOriginally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by BMBenderOriginally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by BMBender As I said above it was an interesting read. But I remain unsure that developmental recourses devoted towards promoting social interaction is necessarily wise. Such basically represents a nanny state or an exercise in herding cats. I do however agree with the OP that the trends/mechanics that actively de-incentivize social interaction is less than optimal. Social interaction is either spontaneous, forced, or limited. Ideally I supposed allowing social interaction without forcing or limiting it would be the most beneficial path, regardless of whether downtime plays a factor or not. A more accurate look at downtime to my mind would be towards content extension.I'd disagree on that one. With virtual worlds, a big part of what you are building is a virtual community.If you want a healthy, thriving community, you need to work toward building that, actively foster it, and continue to maintain it. This means far more than simple forum moderation and conduct agreements. This means devoting resources not only to managing and leading the community, but to the tools that the community needs or desires to effectively and enjoyably communicate, collaborate and grow.
I respectfully disagree, social interaction should be a choice, not a response of...well I got nothing else to do. No artificial society will be stable, your basically saying developers now need to decide what the "correct" amount of social interaction should be, design content/mechanics to force and or limit to that level then herd all the cats inside. Good luck with that. Social interaction is either going to be a spontaneous and dynamic response among individuals outside developer control, or it will be a nanny state. EDIT imo developer contribution to social interaction should start and stop with not de-incentivizing it.Yes, social interaction is a choice. Nowhere did I say anything about regulating, censoring or forcing interaction. You seemed to have read a whole lot into that that was neither written nor implied in my post. A whole lot. I assume this part of your post Originally posted by Loktofeit I'd disagree on that one. With virtual worlds, a big part of what you are building is a virtual community.If you want a healthy, thriving community, you need to work toward building that, actively foster it, and continue to maintain it. the yous = developer if so then my point stands unless I misread. Communities form on their own; developers do not "create/foster" them in some mmo version of selective communism. Any forcing or limiting "actively fostering" the "true way" of social interaction will go over sooo well. Developers have enough on their plate just making a well targeted game without getting involved in some form of digital social engineering. I think you're misunderstanding here. A virtual world's (VW) community isn't just those currently logged into the client, and their method of communication isn't just local chat. Actually, a good bit of a virtual world's community gathers in and communicates in circles that are often completely separate from the in-game environment. No one is suggesting that a developer should tell those people the "true way" to do anything. The goal is to connect with those branches of the community. A VW's community has many segments, and the overlap to a degree, but they are still distinctly separate. Engaging or at least reaching out to the VW's FB crowd, the Twitter crowd, forum crowd, /r crowd, etc is part of nurturing the community and encouraging interaction.
This is much broader than "hey guys, go talk in local chat." Actually, it has absolutely nothing to do with that at all. It's about supporting a community which is important no matter whether the community is physical or virtual.
Guess we'll just agree to disagree For me if a developer makes a solid game that a group of people enjoy; community will form dynamically as long as they stay out of the way.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by BMBender the very games(pre wow) the OP was talking about as the hey day of social interaction never did actively manage social interaction, they merely stayed out of the way. I think some of the confusion is he thinks time sinks, dead time were social management features. They actually had nothing to do with social engineering from a developer standpoint, they were content extensions, one of the reasons it took months/years to reach max level in those games.
What you basically said is that we did an amazing job, because you had no idea we were even doing it.
There are many scenarios where downtime could work, and where it doesn't.
The first, is for the solo player. Downtime should be minimum, or non-existent, whether they are farming, questing, grinding, etc.
As for the group-oriented player, downtime was actually a positive thing, but that's when content was actually designed for groups in the open world. Guild raids and group content in the open-world made players use strategies, and they often formed these strategies during downtime.
Almost all MMOs have eliminated downtime and group-oriented content, in the open-world. It's not even alive in dungeons and raids anymore, and this is where downtime could work really well.
Instead, MMO developers went to the extreme by eliminating it, instead of finding a balance between various playstyles.
I'm glad I'm not alone in missing downtime. I used to play MMO's for social interaction, relaxation, over time accomplishment. I miss being able to clear a camp, fold some laundry while I gained mana and waited for them to respawn (usually 14-28 mins). The atmosphere of rush rush rush kill kill kill endless resource pools is what created this whole "SKILL BASED" game genre that feels a lot more like a second job than a game. Being able to spam abilities seemingly endlessly makes no sense for an RPG. The audience in a broad sense is used to just reloading or picking up another gun and continuing to shoot. People want to feel powerful constantly, hence the solo game.
Since this is written by a developer, make it happen! I'll gladly watch tv while my mana bar goes up again, in fact I welcome it. Work is stressful enough, let me relax in a world when I get home.
What has happened though is that MMOs have changed in many other ways at the same time that downtime faded away, and many have falsely attributed the lack of socialization to the removal of downtime.
Downtime and interaction really do not have much to do with each other unless one wants to suggest that creating boring non-moments is a desired way to get people to socialize just out of sheer desparation for something... ANYTHING... to do.
I liked your post but I think you are missing something.
Removing those "downtime moments" which were huge social opportunities, DID remove social interaction.
this is not false.
Those moments, whether one thinks they were boring or not, were opportunities for people to interact and they did it. Even so much as grouping in order to minimize overlong downtime.
It doesnt' make sense to suggest that removing moments of "downtime social activity" falsely attributed to the lack of socializating.
If that's when people were socialing and you remove it then you remove those moments. I'm not sure why that's difficult to see?
There's a saying "there's a lot of music in the silence", It essentially means that silence is not about "nothing".
Heck, I met one of my best friends at a bus stop. we are very different people and normally would never have met each other but for "downtime" at a bus stop.
Though the idea of "being bored" because you are alone with your own thoughts is a bit disturbing to me I suppose some people just don't like it so I have to accept it. But let's not suggest that one size fits all here. You don't like downtime, you get bored, not everyone sees it that way. But I do understand the idea of "not playing" being disliked. I get it as modern quests seem to be the biggest contributor of "not playing" as you mostly are running from one small moment of game play to another all the while "not playing" while you are just running from arrow to arrow.
While waiting for a ship in lineage 2 one opened themselves up for attack from enemies. Sometimes others would help the one being attacked and you would have "game play".
Pauses in activity aren't bad except for those who don't want to take advantage of those pauses. And Lineage 2 had a LOT of downtime (at times). Sometimes you would meet buffers looking to minimize some of that downtime and you get grouping buddies. There was still downtime but by banding together with other players you would have grouping moments and many great stories that grew out of those groups.
I do agree with your assessment of piling on different personalities. Just doesn't work.
I thought ESO was supposed to allow people of like mind to be in the same game instance?
guess that didn't happen.
You nailed it Sovrath, exactly how downtime used to work, intentional or not, and you are correct, removal of downtime definitely and unarguably removed significant opportunities to socialize.
Sure, if you were soloing, downtime really sucks. I recall playing DAOC and having to sit several minutes between fights if soloing on a character without self healing, and it was dull. Definitely encouraged me to seek out other players to group with who had buffs and regen spells that could heal the party, and return back to the action sooner than if sitting alone.
One of my first online friends, and still friends 12 years later came from sitting on a "boring" 10 minute boat ride from Talking Island in Lineage 1 which all new players had to suffer though until they learned to use teleportation scrolls.
I recall many conversations in DAOC within the party while waiting for health to regen, as someone else mentioned, crafters used to chat for hours while grinding up their professions.
Even in ArcheAge, which has a modern KiLLer combat design (where I almost never interacted with anyone leveling from 1-50) the real socialization has occurred on my guild's trade runs, moving from one continent to another, fighting and dying together. Last evening a guildmate ran into an issue trying to transport a large number of trade packs and his ship was forced on to some rocks with other players trying steal it all from him. The guild responded with a quick rescue where we all grabbed the packs, took them to a nearby guild farm and socialized through the experience.
While I missed it, the guild went out pirate hunting, and just listening to them on TS and the fun they were having wandering around looking for pirates to fight and you could tell, it's the downtime that's important.
Now is socialization important to everyone? Of course not, many players have no interest in socializing online, just not how they are wired. But I dare say a large segment of the current playerbase has no idea what they are missing, as social MMO's haven't been made for a very long time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is why i never respected a game like Wow or Blizzard,they really don't have a clue as to what genre they are making their games for.
You are suppose to be making a ROLE PLAYING game,it should not be called downtime but a natural presence that would be expected in a rpg.Role playing is a form of playing out a realistic life style even within a Fantasy setting,eliminating the realistic factors just cheapens the role playing aspect.
Other examples would be you don't craft or earn anything,just spam every players in box with every weapon,armor,item they want,nothing is earned after all we don't want down time right?See the point,it makes no sense at all,why even play a rpg if you want everything instantly,right away?
Well i guess in a way Blizzard and SOE have already shown how to ruin a game,give away max level players nothing earned.
I would hope anyone that wants to play a game ,actually wants "to play the game".
I can go even further to show how ridiculous the analogy is,why not have players just stand in one spot and the game automates all quests .Then all they do is click that quest and the game auto brings the mobs to them,they don't even have to move.Even better yet,lets put every single player on the server into an auto group and as long as one player finishes the quest ,everyone gets credit,oh ya now that's eliminating down time.
Whaty else,oh yes we can put an unlimited amount of gold in each players bank,well i guess no reason for gold if the game just eliminates all down tiem and gives the players everything they need for free,no effort,no time wasted.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What has happened though is that MMOs have changed in many other ways at the same time that downtime faded away, and many have falsely attributed the lack of socialization to the removal of downtime.
Downtime and interaction really do not have much to do with each other unless one wants to suggest that creating boring non-moments is a desired way to get people to socialize just out of sheer desparation for something... ANYTHING... to do.
I liked your post but I think you are missing something.
Removing those "downtime moments" which were huge social opportunities, DID remove social interaction.
this is not false.
Those moments, whether one thinks they were boring or not, were opportunities for people to interact and they did it. Even so much as grouping in order to minimize overlong downtime.
It doesnt' make sense to suggest that removing moments of "downtime social activity" falsely attributed to the lack of socializating.
If that's when people were socialing and you remove it then you remove those moments. I'm not sure why that's difficult to see?
There's a saying "there's a lot of music in the silence", It essentially means that silence is not about "nothing".
Heck, I met one of my best friends at a bus stop. we are very different people and normally would never have met each other but for "downtime" at a bus stop.
Though the idea of "being bored" because you are alone with your own thoughts is a bit disturbing to me I suppose some people just don't like it so I have to accept it. But let's not suggest that one size fits all here. You don't like downtime, you get bored, not everyone sees it that way. But I do understand the idea of "not playing" being disliked. I get it as modern quests seem to be the biggest contributor of "not playing" as you mostly are running from one small moment of game play to another all the while "not playing" while you are just running from arrow to arrow.
While waiting for a ship in lineage 2 one opened themselves up for attack from enemies. Sometimes others would help the one being attacked and you would have "game play".
Pauses in activity aren't bad except for those who don't want to take advantage of those pauses. And Lineage 2 had a LOT of downtime (at times). Sometimes you would meet buffers looking to minimize some of that downtime and you get grouping buddies. There was still downtime but by banding together with other players you would have grouping moments and many great stories that grew out of those groups.
I do agree with your assessment of piling on different personalities. Just doesn't work.
I thought ESO was supposed to allow people of like mind to be in the same game instance?
guess that didn't happen.
Your bus stop example is real life. Yes, standing on a line or at a bus stop you may meet others and socialize. Waiting for the TI boat in L2 or standing online for your turn at a boss kill in AC are places where people socialized. Yes, that will happen. Yes, periods of low activity to allow for engagement are necessary. I have said that already.
My suggestions are to have more support for smaller communities within the game community to let groups form and grow and to offer more features with low-activity mechanics so that both hands and minds are more available to socialize.
Your suggestion seems to be that devs should create scenarios where the entertainment that people are paying for is forced to a stop to get people to socialize. That seems like less than optimal design, but it seems to me you are of the mind that it is a necessary evil. Am I reading you correctly?
It doesnt' make sense to suggest that removing moments of "downtime social activity" falsely attributed to the lack of socializating.
Can you link to where you are quoting me from here?
"I thought ESO was supposed to allow people of like mind to be in the same game instance? guess that didn't happen. "
Do you have a link to that? I never knew that was a plan of theirs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Seems like what's needed is something that does what downtime does, give players a space to chat and learn about the game, without actually looking like downtime. I'd like to see what you come up with as a solution.
A while back I thought about integrated a game's forums into the game itself in some way, with bulletin boards or signs or something. It wouldn't be very in keeping with most games' theme or environment, but it would certainly give players a reason for downtime, and a way to interact with other players in the game.
A break from the action is always good and your forum idea hits on how the break works best - when it is user chosen as opposed to game enforced. What has happened though is that MMOs have changed in many other ways at the same time that downtime faded away, and many have falsely attributed the lack of socialization to the removal of downtime. Some of those other changes are:
Forcing the server's various groups together at main hubs (ex: Orgrimmar/Ironforge), effectively reducing each community's 'personal space' to a chat channel. At work, at a bar, at a club or any other mixed group of people there are sub groups that people gravitate to. Without the ability to break into subgroups, social interaction breaks down. Differing views, the easily offended, the all-to-brash, the sports fans, the gamers, the rich guys, the hood crowd, etc... each group has their own way of interacting, their own boundaries and their own culture. They often clash. The hub system of today's MMOs, both in virtual space and Global/Zone channels make it so that all these groups are in one big pile on. That's as much a formula for disaster in the real world as it is in the virtual world. Most developers have either completely forgotten that, or they genuinely think they are going to solve the world's problems through a video game. While such a noble act isn't completely impossible, it's an unrealistic and unreasonable approach in light of the alternative - just build gamespace and communication channels that support how people DO interact.
Removal of most aspects of micromanagement and other low-activity tasks where people can chat while getting something accomplished in game. DAoC is an interesting example of that. While no one really wants to go back to watching progress bars crawl by, most DAoC crafters seem to fondly remember chatting merrily with others while getting their stuff done.
Linear, single-focus gameplay. Kill, loot, level, repeat (KiLLeR). There is little else to do in most mainstream MMOs beyond that. As a result, if a player is not grinding down the path, they are 'wasting time'. When other activities are present, they are designed to be secondary to the KiLLeR gameplay, often limited in how far you can advance by your KiLLeR* progression. Fensfield (above) mentioned Mabinogi, which is a great game to look at for diverse low-req gameplay that allows for and encourages interaction.
But to get back to your idea...
I think MMOs are building toward supporting community, but they are doing so in ways that may cater to communities most here aren't part of. Twitter/FB integration, Twitch streaming and in-game browsers allow many players to socialize in the ways they are more accustomed to. More importantly, it allows them to do so in their chosen circles, where they are far more comfortable and far more likely to encounter like-minded or similarly-interested gamers.
"Can we make downtime fun and slow enough to allow for rich social interaction?" - Mark Kern
It seems the better question would be:
"How can we support social interaction in a manner that is makes sense to today's gamers?"
Downtime and interaction really do not have much to do with each other unless one wants to suggest that creating boring non-moments is a desired way to get people to socialize just out of sheer desparation for something... ANYTHING... to do. AC, UO, ATITD are all MMOs where you can just grind your ass off if you wanted with zero downtime, yet people regularly made time to stop by their favorite watering hole to BS with their buddies, sometimes for hours on end. Coming at socialization and community interaction from the angle of downtime seems to be the least optimal way to approach it.
*not an industry term. Acronym is solely for my own amusement
I am amazed that the whole Facebook/Twitter thing hasn't happened yet. I've been messing around with Villagers & Heroes, and one of the things that surprised me was not having to setup a V&H account. My Steam login is my V&H login. This is good, because it's convenient, and it's an opportunity to tie the game to some sort of social network. I am surprised that Facebook & Co. have no tried to jump on this.
I think it would be better to take queues from Facebook or Twitter rather than run full tilt into integration with those sites. Even just letting people join multiple guilds or clubs based on interest would be a step in the right direction.
I am also amazed, literally amazed, not figuratively amazed that there is not some sort of interaction between MMORPGs and cell phones. Chat, voice chat, information lookup, direct game interactions like auction houses, etc. You could have people interacting with the game right there, and interacting with each other in a manner that they are accustomed to, and which would be very convenient.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
For the love of God, please keep Facebook and Twitter out of mmorpgs. I play these games so that I can roleplay another character in another world. Why would I want to be connected to my real life internet persona?
Your bus stop example is real life. Yes, standing on a line or at a bus stop you may meet others and socialize. Waiting for the TI boat in L2 or standing online for your turn at a boss kill in AC are places where people socialized. Yes, that will happen. Yes, periods of low activity to allow for engagement are necessary. I have said that already.
My suggestions are to have more support for smaller communities within the game community to let groups form and grow and to offer more features with low-activity mechanics so that both hands and minds are more available to socialize.
Your suggestion seems to be that devs should create scenarios where the entertainment that people are paying for is forced to a stop to get people to socialize. That seems like less than optimal design, but it seems to me you are of the mind that it is a necessary evil. Am I reading you correctly?
It doesnt' make sense to suggest that removing moments of "downtime social activity" falsely attributed to the lack of socializating.
Can you link to where you are quoting me from here?
"I thought ESO was supposed to allow people of like mind to be in the same game instance? guess that didn't happen. "
Do you have a link to that? I never knew that was a plan of theirs.
I already included it in my snipped:
What has happened though is that MMOs have changed in many other ways at the same time that downtime faded away, and many have falsely attributed the lack of socialization to the removal of downtime.
You say the lack of socilization is falsely attributed to the removal of downtime. I'm saying that those were the moments "in the world" where socializing happened and by removing them you removed a chunk of socializing.
example the dotted lines are active play and the segments of downtime are between | these |
I dont' see downtime as a necessary "evil" because I don't view it as evil. You do. And I respect that but that is where people interacted. My bus stop example may be "real life" but so is my waiting for the boat to talking island. You are sitting at your keyboard, you see other players, you can either get up and walk away or make an observation because it's a shared experience. That gets you talking with people. Suddenly someone says "anyone trying to kill X boss? I am and need help". That gives people an opportunity to join.
As far as ESO goes, that was common knowledge and one of their selling points.
Here is a thread on this site talking about it. I'm sure others here can chime in as it was supposed to be a big deal.
There’s even going to be a survey in game that will let you choose what type of player you are and then it will group you with like-minded folks in the game’s many areas.
The best implementation of non-downtime downtime was the entertainer classes in Star Wars Galaxies. The class was built to hang out in cantinas playing music, dancing, and chatting. Player would come into the cantina and hang out, chatting with the entertainers and each other, all the while slowly getting buffed from watching the entertainers. The entertainers made a living from tips given by the folks that visited the bar.
I think LOTRO and a few other games could make this work just as well with their instrument systems if listening gave buffs that built up strength and duration the longer you sat and listened.
Ironically, the "Bard" classes in most MMOs are just weak rogue/mages with a new paint job, when they could fulfill a similar role to SWGs entertainers.
It's always boggled my mind that no other game has taken advantage of this type of mechanic, as I recall the entertainer was a fairly popular role to play.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
Did not read everything. I have to say that the world has changed. Games, money, and time are all different plus the speed which most people do things.
THE PAST
Corpse runs were something I never hated. I disliked going after them sometimes (lava) but overall was not horrible experience for me. Sitting and regenerating was not an issue. I still enjoyed the fact I had to be super careful and fully aware or else was going to have not made much gain when solo. I also was more willing to group up with others. Tagging a spawn meaning you get the credit was a problem but at same time also led to more groups. It is a loss/loss with a bright spot because it is either be a jerk or worry about ninja looters.
TODAY
I do socialize a little but not much. I don't worry about much or even equipment really as it doesn't matter. There is no need to try and be careful or even try and be efficient. The game really only needs me to push some buttons. I can find what I want through google if looking for something or if I just want to play then I will get my levels. People are speeding through so just wait a bit if need big thing killed as someone come along and you just get a few hits in on it for quest complete.
I am not impressed by MMOs any more. They can be fun but they really do not offer much challenge most times except for the things that require a group or raid. So the forced interaction seems to be the permanent to the games. That is not a bad thing but reality. Being social is totally different. People have their devices to mess with outside the game or alt tab to look at or play other things. I can see interesting mini games working to a degree but what is actually going to make players want to interact. Seems like at least 50% of the community I see speaking in chat are people I don't want to socialize with. I normally make a chat tab for party and say chat plus guild if in one.
I see people interacting because they want to. A member of a Wildstar guild yesterday was talking about how had 5 people join and they will not talk to the guild and only group with each other. I am in a guild in GW2 that has 2 people who will sit in guild chat and talk for a couple of hours while doing nothing else. If want to interact with others then interact. I enjoy reasons to slow down and stop for a few but forcing it is not going to work. I make few friends now but I still make them in MMOs if I desire to try.
As far as I'm concerned, action combat was and is the greatest enemy of social interactions in an MMORPG. Fast paced combat, fast paced content, instancing and the overall loss of virtual worlds design style have queued the death knell of natural socializing in a MMORPG game.
Originally posted by Vorthanion As far as I'm concerned, action combat was and is the greatest enemy of social interactions in an MMORPG. Fast paced combat, fast paced content, instancing and the overall loss of virtual worlds design style have queued the death knell of natural socializing in a MMORPG game.
It definitely does switch the combat to a system where socializing becomes difficult, but I think the more pressing issue is that MMOs have become solely about combat. Most western MMOs are little more than genocide simulators.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man, the OP is crazy right about everything! Every thing he ever wrote here is 100% true and everyone should listen to him. Why doesn't anyone let him make his own game?
By the way, has anyone ever played that awesome game that is in beta and shortly about to launch named Firefall?! It is like the best game ever made, I heard they even have a tour bus for esports matches across the country!
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
Dislike action combat. Dislike permanent uptime. Miss spawn camping.
My favorite activity back in original EQ was going into Lower Guk or Sol B and just camping a named spawn. You'd clear the room and just hang out. You could socialize, you could get up from the computer and do stuff, or you keep pulling trash for exp. You could relax and enjoy the game.
Now every game forces you to be a hyperactive energy drink chugging coke fiend. It's like... OMG OMG DODGE SLASH RUN OVER HERE DODGE EVADE OMG WHATS HAPPENING DODGE SLASH OMG OMG... When you're done you just want to grab a cigeratte, roll over, and go to bed. But you can't because you're only 20 seconds into the dungeon and that was the first pull.
I'm wondering if Mark Kern is actually playing games the MMOs he's making.
Let me help you OP and introduce you to the new wave of gaming
1. There are cities full of players just casually chatting
2. Do not curse action combat, it was needed and it didn't lower socialization. People just use Ts3 now, how about you start integrating VoIP in your MMOs? Maybe make it so when I speak on the VoIP its as if my character is talking in the room, add the room's echo, it will increase immersion than 10000%.....Or the bandwidth gets too expensive? xD
3. Games are much better now than what they were. Take your nostalgia home and don't hinder progress.
We live in the multi core era, there are no single core computers, hell some of us even have 2 GPUs. You can not tell me that another thread just for VoIP is going to tax the system too much.
Your bus stop example is real life. Yes, standing on a line or at a bus stop you may meet others and socialize. Waiting for the TI boat in L2 or standing online for your turn at a boss kill in AC are places where people socialized. Yes, that will happen. Yes, periods of low activity to allow for engagement are necessary. I have said that already.
My suggestions are to have more support for smaller communities within the game community to let groups form and grow and to offer more features with low-activity mechanics so that both hands and minds are more available to socialize.
Your suggestion seems to be that devs should create scenarios where the entertainment that people are paying for is forced to a stop to get people to socialize. That seems like less than optimal design, but it seems to me you are of the mind that it is a necessary evil. Am I reading you correctly?
It doesnt' make sense to suggest that removing moments of "downtime social activity" falsely attributed to the lack of socializating.
Can you link to where you are quoting me from here?
"I thought ESO was supposed to allow people of like mind to be in the same game instance? guess that didn't happen. "
Do you have a link to that? I never knew that was a plan of theirs.
I already included it in my snipped:
What has happened though is that MMOs have changed in many other ways at the same time that downtime faded away, and many have falsely attributed the lack of socialization to the removal of downtime.
You say the lack of socilization is falsely attributed to the removal of downtime. I'm saying that those were the moments "in the world" where socializing happened and by removing them you removed a chunk of socializing.
example the dotted lines are active play and the segments of downtime are between | these |
I dont' see downtime as a necessary "evil" because I don't view it as evil. You do. And I respect that but that is where people interacted. My bus stop example may be "real life" but so is my waiting for the boat to talking island. You are sitting at your keyboard, you see other players, you can either get up and walk away or make an observation because it's a shared experience. That gets you talking with people. Suddenly someone says "anyone trying to kill X boss? I am and need help". That gives people an opportunity to join.
As far as ESO goes, that was common knowledge and one of their selling points.
Here is a thread on this site talking about it. I'm sure others here can chime in as it was supposed to be a big deal.
There’s even going to be a survey in game that will let you choose what type of player you are and then it will group you with like-minded folks in the game’s many areas.
Yes, people socialized during downtime. I never said they didn't. Yes, with forced downtime gone, those opportunities to interact (opportunities, not guaranteed moments) are no longer present. Did the removal of downtime cause the complete breakdown in socialization? No, Sovrath, it didn't.
Was downtime removed with nothing to replace it? No, Sovrath, it wasn't. There are more guild tools, more chat channels, in-game and out of game VoIP, collaborative objectives and other features in today's MMOs than there were in many of the older MMOs. You may not prefer them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Not sure whether you are trying to create a set of red herrings or just misunderstanding.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One step would be to actually be able to do combat and type at the same time... Away with the boring shallow twitch combat and in with more strategic combat and all longer fights.
Then give players a reason to socialize, away with the cursed action house, in with manual player trades. Make players dependent on eachother both in combat by using roles, and out of combat by buying and selling services to eachother.. Repairing, tradeskilling, training and much more.
Forced downtime caused me to take a bio-break, get a snack, and surf the web. I have nothing to talk about with people I'll never meet.
Forget that original EQ had the largest game world at release of any MMO since. Forget that it had slower leveling, so even hot-seating you couldn't level to max in a week, forget that it had distinct areas of the same level to advance in so even if you had leveled up to max you could play the game entirely again and never hit the same spot you used to level on your first character. Nevermind that each expansion was huge in its own right and added a significantly large area to adventure in again. Nevermind the fact that full MMO game worlds today are a fraction of the places to see and adventure in that vanilla EQ was.
Sure, it was forced grouping.... If you conveniently forget about all the above points.
Don't gloss over the laziness of the initial game world design in games today, or the impatience of the publishers. The reason the soup isn't as good today as it was back then isn't because you had all your friends help you make it, it's because it was made from fresh ingredients and attentive care, and enough time to let it simmer, NOT just poured out of a Campell's can and boiled as fast as possible with the stove set on High.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Again, I'm in absolute agreement with Mark. Downtime was time to BS around with the your group mates, chat with guildmates, or browse forums and interact that way. That's missing from today's MMOs.
I will say that EVE Online, due to the unique nature by which their combat and other activities are accomplished, provides time for this interaction. And it really shows, as channel after channel is alive with constant conversation between players. I really feel that this contributes to EVE's ability to maintain such a solid and loyal player base over the years. Players don't just blow through content as quickly as possible and move on. They stay a while, progress their characters, and make pals and enemies. All this supports an attachment to the game that I think really shows.
Originally posted by Thupli I started wow in tbc (coming from final fantasy 11). I always wished that there was more to an inn than simply parking your toon there. Ie, if there were mechanics that made you take your character to an inn to "decompress XP" so to speak, that would be great. BUT you would need something to 1. facilitate not getting too bored 2. not be required too often to make it tedious 3. make it not eat up to much time.Inns have so much potential to capitalize on.
That's actually an excellent idea. stick a mini game in every in, Have ale that buffs and GIVE xp while you are there. Nothing draws characters in like xp!
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Comments
What you basically said is that we did an amazing job, because you had no idea we were even doing it.
Thank you!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, social interaction is a choice. Nowhere did I say anything about regulating, censoring or forcing interaction. You seemed to have read a whole lot into that that was neither written nor implied in my post. A whole lot.
I assume this part of your post Originally posted by Loktofeit I'd disagree on that one. With virtual worlds, a big part of what you are building is a virtual community.If you want a healthy, thriving community, you need to work toward building that, actively foster it, and continue to maintain it.
the yous = developer if so then my point stands unless I misread. Communities form on their own; developers do not "create/foster" them in some mmo version of selective communism. Any forcing or limiting "actively fostering" the "true way" of social interaction will go over sooo well. Developers have enough on their plate just making a well targeted game without getting involved in some form of digital social engineering.
I think you're misunderstanding here. A virtual world's (VW) community isn't just those currently logged into the client, and their method of communication isn't just local chat. Actually, a good bit of a virtual world's community gathers in and communicates in circles that are often completely separate from the in-game environment. No one is suggesting that a developer should tell those people the "true way" to do anything. The goal is to connect with those branches of the community. A VW's community has many segments, and the overlap to a degree, but they are still distinctly separate. Engaging or at least reaching out to the VW's FB crowd, the Twitter crowd, forum crowd, /r crowd, etc is part of nurturing the community and encouraging interaction.
This is much broader than "hey guys, go talk in local chat." Actually, it has absolutely nothing to do with that at all. It's about supporting a community which is important no matter whether the community is physical or virtual.
Guess we'll just agree to disagree
Thank you!
think you mis read
There are many scenarios where downtime could work, and where it doesn't.
The first, is for the solo player. Downtime should be minimum, or non-existent, whether they are farming, questing, grinding, etc.
As for the group-oriented player, downtime was actually a positive thing, but that's when content was actually designed for groups in the open world. Guild raids and group content in the open-world made players use strategies, and they often formed these strategies during downtime.
Almost all MMOs have eliminated downtime and group-oriented content, in the open-world. It's not even alive in dungeons and raids anymore, and this is where downtime could work really well.
Instead, MMO developers went to the extreme by eliminating it, instead of finding a balance between various playstyles.
I'm glad I'm not alone in missing downtime. I used to play MMO's for social interaction, relaxation, over time accomplishment. I miss being able to clear a camp, fold some laundry while I gained mana and waited for them to respawn (usually 14-28 mins). The atmosphere of rush rush rush kill kill kill endless resource pools is what created this whole "SKILL BASED" game genre that feels a lot more like a second job than a game. Being able to spam abilities seemingly endlessly makes no sense for an RPG. The audience in a broad sense is used to just reloading or picking up another gun and continuing to shoot. People want to feel powerful constantly, hence the solo game.
Since this is written by a developer, make it happen! I'll gladly watch tv while my mana bar goes up again, in fact I welcome it. Work is stressful enough, let me relax in a world when I get home.
Basically , we talk about everything but leave the root of problem ... "instance" .
IMO , "down time" wasn't main problem here ,
i used to play MMORPG called Priston tale and in that game there are no down time in combat .
Monster just spawn like crazy and players H&S them while spam potion. but people still talk with other even in middle of battle.
Down time wasn't problem.
Or at less , it not main problem
You nailed it Sovrath, exactly how downtime used to work, intentional or not, and you are correct, removal of downtime definitely and unarguably removed significant opportunities to socialize.
Sure, if you were soloing, downtime really sucks. I recall playing DAOC and having to sit several minutes between fights if soloing on a character without self healing, and it was dull. Definitely encouraged me to seek out other players to group with who had buffs and regen spells that could heal the party, and return back to the action sooner than if sitting alone.
One of my first online friends, and still friends 12 years later came from sitting on a "boring" 10 minute boat ride from Talking Island in Lineage 1 which all new players had to suffer though until they learned to use teleportation scrolls.
I recall many conversations in DAOC within the party while waiting for health to regen, as someone else mentioned, crafters used to chat for hours while grinding up their professions.
Even in ArcheAge, which has a modern KiLLer combat design (where I almost never interacted with anyone leveling from 1-50) the real socialization has occurred on my guild's trade runs, moving from one continent to another, fighting and dying together. Last evening a guildmate ran into an issue trying to transport a large number of trade packs and his ship was forced on to some rocks with other players trying steal it all from him. The guild responded with a quick rescue where we all grabbed the packs, took them to a nearby guild farm and socialized through the experience.
While I missed it, the guild went out pirate hunting, and just listening to them on TS and the fun they were having wandering around looking for pirates to fight and you could tell, it's the downtime that's important.
Now is socialization important to everyone? Of course not, many players have no interest in socializing online, just not how they are wired. But I dare say a large segment of the current playerbase has no idea what they are missing, as social MMO's haven't been made for a very long time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is why i never respected a game like Wow or Blizzard,they really don't have a clue as to what genre they are making their games for.
You are suppose to be making a ROLE PLAYING game,it should not be called downtime but a natural presence that would be expected in a rpg.Role playing is a form of playing out a realistic life style even within a Fantasy setting,eliminating the realistic factors just cheapens the role playing aspect.
Other examples would be you don't craft or earn anything,just spam every players in box with every weapon,armor,item they want,nothing is earned after all we don't want down time right?See the point,it makes no sense at all,why even play a rpg if you want everything instantly,right away?
Well i guess in a way Blizzard and SOE have already shown how to ruin a game,give away max level players nothing earned.
I would hope anyone that wants to play a game ,actually wants "to play the game".
I can go even further to show how ridiculous the analogy is,why not have players just stand in one spot and the game automates all quests .Then all they do is click that quest and the game auto brings the mobs to them,they don't even have to move.Even better yet,lets put every single player on the server into an auto group and as long as one player finishes the quest ,everyone gets credit,oh ya now that's eliminating down time.
Whaty else,oh yes we can put an unlimited amount of gold in each players bank,well i guess no reason for gold if the game just eliminates all down tiem and gives the players everything they need for free,no effort,no time wasted.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Your bus stop example is real life. Yes, standing on a line or at a bus stop you may meet others and socialize. Waiting for the TI boat in L2 or standing online for your turn at a boss kill in AC are places where people socialized. Yes, that will happen. Yes, periods of low activity to allow for engagement are necessary. I have said that already.
My suggestions are to have more support for smaller communities within the game community to let groups form and grow and to offer more features with low-activity mechanics so that both hands and minds are more available to socialize.
Your suggestion seems to be that devs should create scenarios where the entertainment that people are paying for is forced to a stop to get people to socialize. That seems like less than optimal design, but it seems to me you are of the mind that it is a necessary evil. Am I reading you correctly?
It doesnt' make sense to suggest that removing moments of "downtime social activity" falsely attributed to the lack of socializating.
Can you link to where you are quoting me from here?
"I thought ESO was supposed to allow people of like mind to be in the same game instance? guess that didn't happen. "
Do you have a link to that? I never knew that was a plan of theirs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am amazed that the whole Facebook/Twitter thing hasn't happened yet. I've been messing around with Villagers & Heroes, and one of the things that surprised me was not having to setup a V&H account. My Steam login is my V&H login. This is good, because it's convenient, and it's an opportunity to tie the game to some sort of social network. I am surprised that Facebook & Co. have no tried to jump on this.
I think it would be better to take queues from Facebook or Twitter rather than run full tilt into integration with those sites. Even just letting people join multiple guilds or clubs based on interest would be a step in the right direction.
I am also amazed, literally amazed, not figuratively amazed that there is not some sort of interaction between MMORPGs and cell phones. Chat, voice chat, information lookup, direct game interactions like auction houses, etc. You could have people interacting with the game right there, and interacting with each other in a manner that they are accustomed to, and which would be very convenient.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
For the love of God, please keep Facebook and Twitter out of mmorpgs. I play these games so that I can roleplay another character in another world. Why would I want to be connected to my real life internet persona?
I already included it in my snipped:
What has happened though is that MMOs have changed in many other ways at the same time that downtime faded away, and many have falsely attributed the lack of socialization to the removal of downtime.
You say the lack of socilization is falsely attributed to the removal of downtime. I'm saying that those were the moments "in the world" where socializing happened and by removing them you removed a chunk of socializing.
example the dotted lines are active play and the segments of downtime are between | these |
------------- | downtime socializing | --------------| downtime socializing | --------------| downtime socializing | ----- etc
now remove that downtime and the opportunities to soicalize without replacing it with anything and you have:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- etc
I dont' see downtime as a necessary "evil" because I don't view it as evil. You do. And I respect that but that is where people interacted. My bus stop example may be "real life" but so is my waiting for the boat to talking island. You are sitting at your keyboard, you see other players, you can either get up and walk away or make an observation because it's a shared experience. That gets you talking with people. Suddenly someone says "anyone trying to kill X boss? I am and need help". That gives people an opportunity to join.
As far as ESO goes, that was common knowledge and one of their selling points.
Here is a thread on this site talking about it. I'm sure others here can chime in as it was supposed to be a big deal.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/view/forums/thread/408710/Initial-survey.html
another thread where it's mentioned though it was presented in some interviews. Will have to find them.
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1vdsa4/rp_shard_concerns_on_the_megaserver/
article on this site:
There’s even going to be a survey in game that will let you choose what type of player you are and then it will group you with like-minded folks in the game’s many areas.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/6821/Stuff-We-Didnt-Play-PVP-and-Social-Integration.html
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The best implementation of non-downtime downtime was the entertainer classes in Star Wars Galaxies. The class was built to hang out in cantinas playing music, dancing, and chatting. Player would come into the cantina and hang out, chatting with the entertainers and each other, all the while slowly getting buffed from watching the entertainers. The entertainers made a living from tips given by the folks that visited the bar.
I think LOTRO and a few other games could make this work just as well with their instrument systems if listening gave buffs that built up strength and duration the longer you sat and listened.
Ironically, the "Bard" classes in most MMOs are just weak rogue/mages with a new paint job, when they could fulfill a similar role to SWGs entertainers.
It's always boggled my mind that no other game has taken advantage of this type of mechanic, as I recall the entertainer was a fairly popular role to play.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
Did not read everything. I have to say that the world has changed. Games, money, and time are all different plus the speed which most people do things.
THE PAST
Corpse runs were something I never hated. I disliked going after them sometimes (lava) but overall was not horrible experience for me. Sitting and regenerating was not an issue. I still enjoyed the fact I had to be super careful and fully aware or else was going to have not made much gain when solo. I also was more willing to group up with others. Tagging a spawn meaning you get the credit was a problem but at same time also led to more groups. It is a loss/loss with a bright spot because it is either be a jerk or worry about ninja looters.
TODAY
I do socialize a little but not much. I don't worry about much or even equipment really as it doesn't matter. There is no need to try and be careful or even try and be efficient. The game really only needs me to push some buttons. I can find what I want through google if looking for something or if I just want to play then I will get my levels. People are speeding through so just wait a bit if need big thing killed as someone come along and you just get a few hits in on it for quest complete.
I am not impressed by MMOs any more. They can be fun but they really do not offer much challenge most times except for the things that require a group or raid. So the forced interaction seems to be the permanent to the games. That is not a bad thing but reality. Being social is totally different. People have their devices to mess with outside the game or alt tab to look at or play other things. I can see interesting mini games working to a degree but what is actually going to make players want to interact. Seems like at least 50% of the community I see speaking in chat are people I don't want to socialize with. I normally make a chat tab for party and say chat plus guild if in one.
I see people interacting because they want to. A member of a Wildstar guild yesterday was talking about how had 5 people join and they will not talk to the guild and only group with each other. I am in a guild in GW2 that has 2 people who will sit in guild chat and talk for a couple of hours while doing nothing else. If want to interact with others then interact. I enjoy reasons to slow down and stop for a few but forcing it is not going to work. I make few friends now but I still make them in MMOs if I desire to try.
It definitely does switch the combat to a system where socializing becomes difficult, but I think the more pressing issue is that MMOs have become solely about combat. Most western MMOs are little more than genocide simulators.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man, the OP is crazy right about everything! Every thing he ever wrote here is 100% true and everyone should listen to him. Why doesn't anyone let him make his own game?
By the way, has anyone ever played that awesome game that is in beta and shortly about to launch named Firefall?! It is like the best game ever made, I heard they even have a tour bus for esports matches across the country!
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
Dislike permanent uptime.
Miss spawn camping.
My favorite activity back in original EQ was going into Lower Guk or Sol B and just camping a named spawn. You'd clear the room and just hang out. You could socialize, you could get up from the computer and do stuff, or you keep pulling trash for exp. You could relax and enjoy the game.
Now every game forces you to be a hyperactive energy drink chugging coke fiend. It's like... OMG OMG DODGE SLASH RUN OVER HERE DODGE EVADE OMG WHATS HAPPENING DODGE SLASH OMG OMG... When you're done you just want to grab a cigeratte, roll over, and go to bed. But you can't because you're only 20 seconds into the dungeon and that was the first pull.
Yeah, forget that.
I'm wondering if Mark Kern is actually playing games the MMOs he's making.
Let me help you OP and introduce you to the new wave of gaming
1. There are cities full of players just casually chatting
2. Do not curse action combat, it was needed and it didn't lower socialization. People just use Ts3 now, how about you start integrating VoIP in your MMOs? Maybe make it so when I speak on the VoIP its as if my character is talking in the room, add the room's echo, it will increase immersion than 10000%.....Or the bandwidth gets too expensive? xD
3. Games are much better now than what they were. Take your nostalgia home and don't hinder progress.
We live in the multi core era, there are no single core computers, hell some of us even have 2 GPUs. You can not tell me that another thread just for VoIP is going to tax the system too much.
Yes, people socialized during downtime. I never said they didn't. Yes, with forced downtime gone, those opportunities to interact (opportunities, not guaranteed moments) are no longer present. Did the removal of downtime cause the complete breakdown in socialization? No, Sovrath, it didn't.
Was downtime removed with nothing to replace it? No, Sovrath, it wasn't. There are more guild tools, more chat channels, in-game and out of game VoIP, collaborative objectives and other features in today's MMOs than there were in many of the older MMOs. You may not prefer them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Not sure whether you are trying to create a set of red herrings or just misunderstanding.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One step would be to actually be able to do combat and type at the same time... Away with the boring shallow twitch combat and in with more strategic combat and all longer fights.
Then give players a reason to socialize, away with the cursed action house, in with manual player trades. Make players dependent on eachother both in combat by using roles, and out of combat by buying and selling services to eachother.. Repairing, tradeskilling, training and much more.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Forced downtime caused socialization?
Forced downtime caused me to take a bio-break, get a snack, and surf the web. I have nothing to talk about with people I'll never meet.
Forget that original EQ had the largest game world at release of any MMO since. Forget that it had slower leveling, so even hot-seating you couldn't level to max in a week, forget that it had distinct areas of the same level to advance in so even if you had leveled up to max you could play the game entirely again and never hit the same spot you used to level on your first character. Nevermind that each expansion was huge in its own right and added a significantly large area to adventure in again. Nevermind the fact that full MMO game worlds today are a fraction of the places to see and adventure in that vanilla EQ was.
Sure, it was forced grouping.... If you conveniently forget about all the above points.
Don't gloss over the laziness of the initial game world design in games today, or the impatience of the publishers. The reason the soup isn't as good today as it was back then isn't because you had all your friends help you make it, it's because it was made from fresh ingredients and attentive care, and enough time to let it simmer, NOT just poured out of a Campell's can and boiled as fast as possible with the stove set on High.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I will say that EVE Online, due to the unique nature by which their combat and other activities are accomplished, provides time for this interaction. And it really shows, as channel after channel is alive with constant conversation between players. I really feel that this contributes to EVE's ability to maintain such a solid and loyal player base over the years. Players don't just blow through content as quickly as possible and move on. They stay a while, progress their characters, and make pals and enemies. All this supports an attachment to the game that I think really shows.
That's actually an excellent idea. stick a mini game in every in, Have ale that buffs and GIVE xp while you are there. Nothing draws characters in like xp!
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development