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Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    The issue is certainly NOT of the controller. You can even buy a mouse with tons of keys on it.

    The issue is whether "more is fun". Certainly no one is arguing to have just one button .... but having 20 or 30 buttons are getting to the point where players are fighting buttons (unless you train, train and train, and normal players just don't do that for merely games) instead of playing.

    Plus, who says you have to use the SAME set of limited key all the time? D3 has 6 skills + 4 passive at any one time, but you can switch as long as you are not in combat. So the meta game is actually more complex (it has tons of skills) because you have to consider combo, and not *just* what skill to use.

     

    I don't think the controller is really the issue, either.  It's just a good talking point for those who dislike limited skill bars.

     

    I'm a huge fan of combo moves, and I think they deserve a comeback in a large way in MMOs.  DAoC had an excellent melee system that utilized different combos that started once certain conditions are met.  I'd like to see combos that build off of dodges, blocks, parries, positional starters, crits even.  An intricate system could certainly be developed from a prevalence of such situationally-driven combos.  If MMOs implement this design without the progressive skill bar that was used in Spellborn, small skill bars quickly become a detriment.

     

    In addition to the idea that PvE content should be somewhat randomized to avoid tedium (making it necessary, depending upon the amount of limitations implemented by the bar, to allow on-the-fly swapping), an MMO with multiple combo chains would need an easy way to switch between skill bars quickly and responsively if they limit the number of skills per bar.

    image
  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    The issue is certainly NOT of the controller. You can even buy a mouse with tons of keys on it.

    The issue is whether "more is fun". Certainly no one is arguing to have just one button .... but having 20 or 30 buttons are getting to the point where players are fighting buttons (unless you train, train and train, and normal players just don't do that for merely games) instead of playing.

    Plus, who says you have to use the SAME set of limited key all the time? D3 has 6 skills + 4 passive at any one time, but you can switch as long as you are not in combat. So the meta game is actually more complex (it has tons of skills) because you have to consider combo, and not *just* what skill to use.

     

    I don't think the controller is really the issue, either.  It's just a good talking point for those who dislike limited skill bars.

     

    I'm a huge fan of combo moves, and I think they deserve a comeback in a large way in MMOs.  DAoC had an excellent melee system that utilized different combos that started once certain conditions are met.  I'd like to see combos that build off of dodges, blocks, parries, positional starters, crits even.  An intricate system could certainly be developed from a prevalence of such situationally-driven combos.  If MMOs implement this design without the progressive skill bar that was used in Spellborn, small skill bars quickly become a detriment.

     

    In addition to the idea that PvE content should be somewhat randomized to avoid tedium (making it necessary, depending upon the amount of limitations implemented by the bar, to allow on-the-fly swapping), an MMO with multiple combo chains would need an easy way to switch between skill bars quickly and responsively if they limit the number of skills per bar.

    Completely agree with you about the controller thing.  In fact, at least one of the posters who tried to use the "controller argument" to explain limited skill bars basically admitted that he's never even played with a controller.  So it's an argument made from ignorance.

    And I'm with you regarding combo moves.  I would be all for a game with lots of combo moves, provided that they let you customize your build to a high degree, like a LAS game does.  Basically, I just wouldn't want the combo moves to somehow work against customizability.

    I also don't see the whole LAS idea as being as limiting as many other posters here seem to see it.  The way I see it, character classes in a game are actually limited skill bars.  That's basically what a class is, it's a pre-defined limited skill bar.

    But with a basic class system, you don't have the freedom to build your own skill bar, it's just given to you.  The whole idea behind the LAS is that it gives you the freedom to build your own "class" basically.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    The issue is certainly NOT of the controller. You can even buy a mouse with tons of keys on it.

    The issue is whether "more is fun". Certainly no one is arguing to have just one button .... but having 20 or 30 buttons are getting to the point where players are fighting buttons (unless you train, train and train, and normal players just don't do that for merely games) instead of playing.

    Plus, who says you have to use the SAME set of limited key all the time? D3 has 6 skills + 4 passive at any one time, but you can switch as long as you are not in combat. So the meta game is actually more complex (it has tons of skills) because you have to consider combo, and not *just* what skill to use.

     

    I don't think the controller is really the issue, either.  It's just a good talking point for those who dislike limited skill bars.

     

    I'm a huge fan of combo moves, and I think they deserve a comeback in a large way in MMOs.  DAoC had an excellent melee system that utilized different combos that started once certain conditions are met.  I'd like to see combos that build off of dodges, blocks, parries, positional starters, crits even.  An intricate system could certainly be developed from a prevalence of such situationally-driven combos.  If MMOs implement this design without the progressive skill bar that was used in Spellborn, small skill bars quickly become a detriment.

     

    In addition to the idea that PvE content should be somewhat randomized to avoid tedium (making it necessary, depending upon the amount of limitations implemented by the bar, to allow on-the-fly swapping), an MMO with multiple combo chains would need an easy way to switch between skill bars quickly and responsively if they limit the number of skills per bar.

    Completely agree with you about the controller thing.  In fact, at least one of the posters who tried to use the "controller argument" to explain limited skill bars basically admitted that he's never even played with a controller.  So it's an argument made from ignorance.

    And I'm with you regarding combo moves.  I would be all for a game with lots of combo moves, provided that they let you customize your build to a high degree, like a LAS game does.  Basically, I just wouldn't want the combo moves to somehow work against customizability.

    I also don't see the whole LAS idea as being as limiting as many other posters here seem to see it.  The way I see it, character classes in a game are actually limited skill bars.  That's basically what a class is, it's a pre-defined limited skill bar.

    But with a basic class system, you don't have the freedom to build your own skill bar, it's just given to you.  The whole idea behind the LAS is that it gives you the freedom to build your own "class" basically.

    Again, I think the way Spellborn did it would be the best method if combos were included.  It would be easy to memorize, as you would just place abilities further down the chain on the next bar in the same keyslot.  So a chain that started with an ability at the 1 slot would end at 1 on the 3-4th skill bar.  Though maybe some would find mashing that same button boring?  I dunno.  I'm more a fan of tactical combat, so I wouldn't mind it.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    But with a basic class system, you don't have the freedom to build your own skill bar, it's just given to you.  The whole idea behind the LAS is that it gives you the freedom to build your own "class" basically.

    I think that is the misconception. Many equate LAS with "fewer skills" which is obviously not true if you take a look at a game like D3 which has many many skills.

    LAS is not about few skills, it is about making choices of WHAT skills to use in a large set.

     

  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide Member RarePosts: 1,015
    cute idea but no matter what you do.. you'll always end up with cookie cutter builds. so the format does not matter as long as the audience agrees with it.

    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    cute idea but no matter what you do.. you'll always end up with cookie cutter builds. so the format does not matter as long as the audience agrees with it.

    D3 disagrees.

    Just go to diablofans.com and see lots of different type of builds. Just for the wiz, current popular builds (and there are lots of debate of which one is more efficient for what):

    - MM fire conflag

    - vyr + tal arcane archon

    - fire archon

    - Wand of woe explosion build

    - lightning perma-stun build

    .. and i have not even talk about the less popular ones or variations.

     

    For WD, you can do a pet build, or a jade set build .... everything is viable ... and if you actually play MP, you will see different players with different builds all the way up to the highest torment.

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066

    "When I was young, MMORPGS had billions of skills and none of that movement! Those were proper MMORPGs!",

    The fun part is that those MMORPGs didn't actually have those many skills.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    "When I was young, MMORPGS had billions of skills and none of that movement! Those were proper MMORPGs!",

    The fun part is that those MMORPGs didn't actually have those many skills.

    Now you're talking in generalizations, too.  And as they were wrong for using such generalizations, so are you.

     

    DaoC Paladin twisted 3/4 chants to gain the temporary effects of all 3/4.  That was 3/4 skill slots, unless you macro'd it.  Even if you macro'd, you'd need multiple macros to change out which chants you twisted depending upon the situation.  The chants included, but were not limited to: heal, endurance, resistance (two different sets), ablative armor, and combat speed.

     

    Paladin also had Resurrection, Taunt, self buffs, shield skills (if not 2h), and weapon skills.  Shield skills contained combos of 2-3 weapon skills, as did your weapon skill tree.  These combos started based on situational requirements, and had different traits and effects.  Almost all were useful, depending upon the situation and build.

     

    That would never have fit onto an 8-slot skill bar.  Not even a 10-slot.

    image
  • zach_bzach_b Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    It seems like most MMORPGs nowadays are going with the concept of the "limited skill bar" wherein you might have tons of skills you can choose from, but you can only have a select few (6-12ish) on your bar to use in combat at any given time.  GW1/GW2, ESO, and Wildstar are designed like this; and even EQ Next will use this concept.

    Yet, despite the apparenty popularity of this design with developers, I see so many people here complain about the limited skill bar.  Saying things like it "dumbs down" the game, or makes combat worse/less-varied.

    Well my friends, I think you're wrong.  I think that limited skill bars are (usually) a very good thing for a game, and here are a few reasons why:

    1.  Build Variety:  Imagine you have a game where each character has 20 skills, and can have all of them on their bar.  How many different skill builds are there for this character?  Answer is pretty easy here one.  Now imagine a game where each character has 20 skills, but can only choose 10 to be on their bar.  How many different skill builds now?  The answer is 184,756.  True, most of these probably are not optimal or are very similar to others...but even if only one percent of these builds are viable, that's still over a THOUSAND different ways you can choose to build your character.

    I know I've spent hours just theorycrafting different builds, and agonizing over what skill goes in that last slot.  You just don't get this kind of investment in your character's build from a game that lets you put all your skills on the bar at the same time.

     

    2.  More Interesting/Versatile Skills:  I think that limiting the skill bar really forces both players and developers to be more creative with how they use/create skills, and this can create a really interesting combat dynamic in the game.  For example, the spellslinger's blink ability in wildstar teleports them forward a fairly short distance and stuns anything they blink through.  So in effect this one ability functions as:  a chase, an escape, or an offensive/defensive stun. 

    And remember, all this utility is on the SAME cooldown.  This really makes you consider how you want to use this ability because if you use it one way, you sacrifice the other uses of it.  For example, if I use it to initiate combat on a player with a stun...then I'm not going to be able to use it to escape if things go poorly, and vice versa.

     

    3.  No "Macroable" Skills:  In games with MASSIVE skill bars like Rift, macros that just basically shot skills off in a sequence with one button were very common.  The reason they were common was because there was essentially one skill rotation that was optimal under just about any circumstance.  So instead of pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9; players would just press 1,1,1,1,1....and get the same effect.  So in effect, that massive skill bar gets reduced to just a few buttons because so many of the skills are always fired in the same sequence and there is never any reason to deviate from that.

    This is definitely not so in a limited skill bar game.  Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of skills in these games are multi-purpose, and trying to force them into a rotation is going to really screw you over.

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

    2.) This isn't more interesting or versatile. With 20 choices, you have more interesting decisions assuming all 20 apply to the current situation and more versatility because you can have multiple ways to deal with the current situation.

    3.) Most of the MMO's do not allow for timer based skills or very much logic at all. This was taken out in Vanilla WoW and almost no one has repeated that mistake since. Many require you to hit the key a multitude of times to work through the macro, but at the end of the day you are instantiating the same number of button presses.

    You should probably learn to formulate a correct argument instead of one that can be proven as patently false.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

  • zach_bzach_b Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    To you may be ... it is not irrelevant to people who enjoy making decisions of builds and gear. And don't tell me you don't know there are knows who enjoy making builds and stuff. Just look on youtube.

    Are you denying there are more decisions PRE-combat with a limited skill bar? .. in fact WAY more decisions pre-combat than in combat.

    All you are saying is that you don't like pre-combat decision, and only like combat decisions.

    Well, your preference don't represent mine, or others.

  • zach_bzach_b Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    To you may be ... it is not irrelevant to people who enjoy making decisions of builds and gear. And don't tell me you don't know there are knows who enjoy making builds and stuff. Just look on youtube.

    Are you denying there are more decisions PRE-combat with a limited skill bar? .. in fact WAY more decisions pre-combat than in combat.

    All you are saying is that you don't like pre-combat decision, and only like combat decisions.

    Well, your preference don't represent mine, or others.

    I'm saying reducing the number of possible decisions is a restriction and increasing the number of decisions is freedom. You, on one hand, restrict the number of decisions made at instantiation. I, on the other hand, lobby for more versatility, capability, and decision making ability. I don't deign to limit peoples freedom of choice.

    If you were to restricted to only using 8 words per day out of 20 and I could use all 20 each day, who has more freedoms? Me or you?

    I am merely saying do not limit people because you cannot make quick decisions, and do not dumb down a game because you cannot make quick decisions while hiding behind abusing permutations to falsely claim you made more decisions than me with fewer decision points. 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    Not necessarily true. When players have all the skills, they repeat the same strategy or tactics over and over. It's more restricted, because you really have little choice other than to use what is the most optimal set up of those 20. When you have to discover what the enemy is using and come up with both offensive and counter strategies, each battle is different. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    Not necessarily true. When players have all the skills, they repeat the same strategy or tactics over and over. It's more restricted, because you really have little choice other than to use what is the most optimal set up of those 20. When you have to discover what the enemy is using and come up with both offensive and counter strategies, each battle is different. 

    Both styles are the same.  Players eventually begin to use those skills/talents/mutations which give the best efficiency or what they like to use the most.  Just because you've made a player pick 8 (or whatever number) to use during combat doesn't mean there is more or less strategery involved.  That's just general gameplay for general players.

    Where the no-limitation system shines is when you have a player engaging with horrible odds and able to use the aditional skills effectively to win or turn the tide.  

    In the end, it comes down to preference.  

    Star Citizen Referral Code: STAR-DPBM-Z2P4
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    To you may be ... it is not irrelevant to people who enjoy making decisions of builds and gear. And don't tell me you don't know there are knows who enjoy making builds and stuff. Just look on youtube.

    Are you denying there are more decisions PRE-combat with a limited skill bar? .. in fact WAY more decisions pre-combat than in combat.

    All you are saying is that you don't like pre-combat decision, and only like combat decisions.

    Well, your preference don't represent mine, or others.

    I'm saying reducing the number of possible decisions is a restriction and increasing the number of decisions is freedom. You, on one hand, restrict the number of decisions made at instantiation. I, on the other hand, lobby for more versatility, capability, and decision making ability. I don't deign to limit peoples freedom of choice.

    If you were to restricted to only using 8 words per day out of 20 and I could use all 20 each day, who has more freedoms? Me or you?

    I am merely saying do not limit people because you cannot make quick decisions, and do not dumb down a game because you cannot make quick decisions while hiding behind abusing permutations to falsely claim you made more decisions than me with fewer decision points. 

    You purposely ignore the fact that 125970 is vastly bigger than 20. What restriction? I am letting them have more freedom PRE-COMBAT.

    In fact, it is dumbing down to let them have 20 options at all time, when it is harder to consider 125970 combinations every time before you have to go into combat.

    Tell me, are you really saying 125970 is *smaller* than 20?

  • QuesaQuesa Member UncommonPosts: 1,432
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    To you may be ... it is not irrelevant to people who enjoy making decisions of builds and gear. And don't tell me you don't know there are knows who enjoy making builds and stuff. Just look on youtube.

    Are you denying there are more decisions PRE-combat with a limited skill bar? .. in fact WAY more decisions pre-combat than in combat.

    All you are saying is that you don't like pre-combat decision, and only like combat decisions.

    Well, your preference don't represent mine, or others.

    I'm saying reducing the number of possible decisions is a restriction and increasing the number of decisions is freedom. You, on one hand, restrict the number of decisions made at instantiation. I, on the other hand, lobby for more versatility, capability, and decision making ability. I don't deign to limit peoples freedom of choice.

    If you were to restricted to only using 8 words per day out of 20 and I could use all 20 each day, who has more freedoms? Me or you?

    I am merely saying do not limit people because you cannot make quick decisions, and do not dumb down a game because you cannot make quick decisions while hiding behind abusing permutations to falsely claim you made more decisions than me with fewer decision points. 

    You purposely ignore the fact that 125970 is vastly bigger than 20. What restriction? I am letting them have more freedom PRE-COMBAT.

    In fact, it is dumbing down to let them have 20 options at all time, when it is harder to consider 125970 combinations every time before you have to go into combat.

    Tell me, are you really saying 125970 is *smaller* than 20?

    More possible combinations, while it doesn't matter or have an impact on your encounter.  You can say "more combinations!!!" all you want but when it comes down to it, you are limited in what you can use.  Combinations doesn't necessarily equate freedom either because the you are forced to choose a limited amount of skills, unless of course you think limit=freedom.

    The true distinction comes when a player utilizes those not-so-often-used skills to great effect, something you can't do with a limited set of skills during an encounter.

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    You purposely ignore the fact that 125970 is vastly bigger than 20. What restriction? I am letting them have more freedom PRE-COMBAT.

    In fact, it is dumbing down to let them have 20 options at all time, when it is harder to consider 125970 combinations every time before you have to go into combat.

    Tell me, are you really saying 125970 is *smaller* than 20?

    125970 combinations of skills is 125970 combinations whether the player can access all those combinations at once by simply pressing them in the right order, or has to wait to change out his build.

     

    Limiting the player's available skills per fight does not magically make more combinations.  It just means he can only use one combination per fight.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    You purposely ignore the fact that 125970 is vastly bigger than 20. What restriction? I am letting them have more freedom PRE-COMBAT.

    In fact, it is dumbing down to let them have 20 options at all time, when it is harder to consider 125970 combinations every time before you have to go into combat.

    Tell me, are you really saying 125970 is *smaller* than 20?

    125970 combinations of skills is 125970 combinations whether the player can access all those combinations at once by simply pressing them in the right order, or has to wait to change out his build.

     

    Limiting the player's available skills per fight does not magically make more combinations.  It just means he can only use one combination per fight.

    But he can use any of those 125950 combinations (and granted .. not all make sense, but in a game like D3, you can easily have to choose between hundreds including variations) .. and so it is a choice BEFORE combat, of what combination to use.

    And don't tell me you don't agree that he has to make a choice BEFORE combat, where that choice has 125950 options to choose from.

     

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    I just like having the choice and not having it decided for me.  SWTOR I can pick 1, 2, 3 or more skill bars.  It's up to me.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • zach_bzach_b Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by zach_b
     

    1.) What? You have the freedom to have 20 different decisions to make, and now you are limiting me to 8 decisions. Yours removes choice, not enhances it. This isn't build variety, this is decision restriction.

     

    Choosing 8 abilities to bring to combat from 20 ... has 125970 combinations. So there are many MORE possible decisions if you restrict it then 20.

    Of course you will be making the complex decision up front BEFORE combat, and fewer decisions to make in combat.

    But hey .. having a much more complex meta game up front (125970 is way more than 20) is good trade off to fewer decisions later.

    It is more freedom.

    However, at the point of combat, you are only capable of having 8 decisions versus 20 decisions. The total number of pre-combat builds is irrelevant. It's not adding complexity to your decision making, it's removing decision making at the point of instantiation, thus rendering a simpler decision and an easier environment. Either way you word it, at the end of the day during your decision timeframe you are making fewer decisions.

    You are still removing freedom, I cannot use all 20 skills any time I wish, I can only use 8. That is a restriction, not an enhancement.

    To you may be ... it is not irrelevant to people who enjoy making decisions of builds and gear. And don't tell me you don't know there are knows who enjoy making builds and stuff. Just look on youtube.

    Are you denying there are more decisions PRE-combat with a limited skill bar? .. in fact WAY more decisions pre-combat than in combat.

    All you are saying is that you don't like pre-combat decision, and only like combat decisions.

    Well, your preference don't represent mine, or others.

    I'm saying reducing the number of possible decisions is a restriction and increasing the number of decisions is freedom. You, on one hand, restrict the number of decisions made at instantiation. I, on the other hand, lobby for more versatility, capability, and decision making ability. I don't deign to limit peoples freedom of choice.

    If you were to restricted to only using 8 words per day out of 20 and I could use all 20 each day, who has more freedoms? Me or you?

    I am merely saying do not limit people because you cannot make quick decisions, and do not dumb down a game because you cannot make quick decisions while hiding behind abusing permutations to falsely claim you made more decisions than me with fewer decision points. 

    You purposely ignore the fact that 125970 is vastly bigger than 20. What restriction? I am letting them have more freedom PRE-COMBAT.

    In fact, it is dumbing down to let them have 20 options at all time, when it is harder to consider 125970 combinations every time before you have to go into combat.

    Tell me, are you really saying 125970 is *smaller* than 20?

    I think you're maybe too busy trying to defend your incorrectness to realize you're incorrect. When your decision matters, which is at the point of combat: with an LAS you are only tasked to make 1 of 8 choices. With an non-LAS system, you are tasked to make 20. The fact you made decisions before is completely irrelevant. You have limited your freedoms and only served to further homogenize and smooth out the skill-gap of players. Don't lie to yourself and everyone here saying there is a pre-combat "meta game of skill choices". There isn't. The same way I don't pretend I will use all 20 skills during a fight, even though each time I am subconsciously paring them down due to repetition. There are optimal builds and they are usually limited to 2-3. Adding a freebie "utility" slot will rarely ever serve to swing the course of a raid encounter.

    With LAS, you are only expected to perform 1 action, and likely can't do more than 1 role. I have yet to find one where you could even partially fill a secondary role if you had to during a fight when shit goes wrong. In the majority of LAS games you are using ~6 slots to maximize your role. The remaining 2 are typically utility of some sort. In non-LAS, you are expected to utilize the full potential of your kit, which could consist of 8 primary role, 8 secondary role, 4 utility. Given an intelligent and skilled enough player, you can demonstrate your abilities by switching to a secondary role if shit hits the fan. WoW:TBC was the epitome of when this was prevalent. As a druid I could perform many different functions and alleviate raid problems if I absolutely had to during a fight. I'm not simply talking a Brez. There were multiple occasions during the course of the expansion where quick thinking, and utilizing ~15-20 skills in a fight served to propel us to a victory rather than me sitting in bear form not being able to do shit about it, shrugging my shoulders, and taking the L.

    You advocate for an easier, less skill-based environment. I happen to advocate for forcing people to think and make more decisions while operating on a higher cognitive plane.

    I'll answer your question when you answer mine since I asked first. If you can only use 8 words per conversation each day and have to select them ahead of time whereas I can use 20, are you saying that you have more freedom than I do?

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Limiting your skills in any single encounter adds strategy to tactics - not only do you need to know how to use the skills you have, but you need to plan ahead to make sure you have the skills you need.

    The design concept goes back to spellcasters in pen and paper D&D, who needed to pick which skills to memorize.

     

    The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

    First off every damage dealer regardless of how many skills they have will be taking the highest damage output.

    Limiting skills also completely takes the skill out of learning how to use the skills you have like you mentioned.  The whole challenge of doing that is when you have an overwhelming amount of skills at your disposal and have to learn when and how to use them properly, when you limit it to a single digit number you take all of that away.

     

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Limiting your skills in any single encounter adds strategy to tactics - not only do you need to know how to use the skills you have, but you need to plan ahead to make sure you have the skills you need.

    The design concept goes back to spellcasters in pen and paper D&D, who needed to pick which skills to memorize.

     

    The problem is that this ISN'T the case in modern pve focused MMO's.

    First off every damage dealer regardless of how many skills they have will be taking the highest damage output.

    Limiting skills also completely takes the skill out of learning how to use the skills you have like you mentioned.  The whole challenge of doing that is when you have an overwhelming amount of skills at your disposal and have to learn when and how to use them properly, when you limit it to a single digit number you take all of that away.

     

    If we are talking about a game with no resistances, damage types, range considerations, attack positioning or other elements of combat outside of strict DPS, then you are correct. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    "When I was young, MMORPGS had billions of skills and none of that movement! Those were proper MMORPGs!",

    The fun part is that those MMORPGs didn't actually have those many skills.

    Now you're talking in generalizations, too.  And as they were wrong for using such generalizations, so are you.

     

    DaoC Paladin twisted 3/4 chants to gain the temporary effects of all 3/4.  That was 3/4 skill slots, unless you macro'd it.  Even if you macro'd, you'd need multiple macros to change out which chants you twisted depending upon the situation.  The chants included, but were not limited to: heal, endurance, resistance (two different sets), ablative armor, and combat speed.

     

    Paladin also had Resurrection, Taunt, self buffs, shield skills (if not 2h), and weapon skills.  Shield skills contained combos of 2-3 weapon skills, as did your weapon skill tree.  These combos started based on situational requirements, and had different traits and effects.  Almost all were useful, depending upon the situation and build.

     

    That would never have fit onto an 8-slot skill bar.  Not even a 10-slot.

    Lets look at GW2.

    Guardian skills

       F1 F2 F3

       1 2 3 4 5  6 7 8 9 0

    `  1 2 3 4 5

        V F

    That is 20 skills and some of them might even add different skills.

    Elemetalist skills

     F1 F2 F3 F4

    1 2 3 4 5  6 7 8 9 0

    1 2 3 4 5 

    1 2 3 4 5

    1 2 3 4 5

     V F

    31 skills accessible and some of the 7-0 might add another 1 2 3 4 5.

    You have a ton of skills, they just aren't visible.

    So you need to take in account weapon swap (attunement) cooldown and guess the cooldown of the hidden skills.

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  • ShrewdDuckShrewdDuck Member UncommonPosts: 21
    Limited skill hence limited skill bar. That is all.
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