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Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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  • ArakaziArakazi Member UncommonPosts: 911
    It really depends on the overall game design but I use skill bars for more than just spells and skills... when I see that I only have eight slots I think "this is just a game".
  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Talking about complexity and number of options.

    Look at Chess and Go.

    Chess has 6 types of pieces.

    Go has 1 type of piece.

    And Chess is not too shabby about complexity.

    Yep. you have 6 pieces in chess.... You dont have 12 and pick 6 pieces to use for any giving game. Or 6 pieces and only use 4. You use them ALL. Why is it so hard for you to grasp this concept?

    The hard concept for you to grasp is that Go has only one piece and it is more depth than the 6 piece chess.

    The number of pieces aren't the only aspect determining complexity and more important depth.

    Playing chess while juggling is more complex than regular chess but it adds no depth to it.

    A game where you have tons of choices and end up with only a few is MtG or any deckbuilder game.

     

     

    Its the rules of the game that can create complexity. Take your one piece from Go. It may be one piece, but you do see two colors? Now change the rules to add another color. and another. How much more complex does that game now become? Your notion that the lack of options makes things more complex is just silly and im done with this nonsense. Its like arguing with a baby. Have fun in your 3 skill mmo.

     

    image

  • OrtwigOrtwig Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Originally posted by Naevius
    Would Magic be a better game if you had ALL the cards in your deck?

    This.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,372

    My theory.   LAS's in modern MMORPG's aren't necessarily being introduced in order to release the game on both consoles and PC's, rather they are being used to design combat systems that appeal to gamers who traditionally gamed on consoles.

    I dare say GW1, GW2, ESO in particular are all geared to appealing to a console oriented gamer, and not one who traditionally has favored standard MMORPG gameplay.

    Further evidence, these same games have "action oriented" combat, another console hallmark, simplified skill systems, again, from consoles, heavily solo, story driven content, again, all hallmarks of console games, and only recently incorporated into MMORPG design.

    All of these changes are being made to appeal to the much larger console player base, and draw them into the MMORPG space, just not necessarily on a console platform, since it has limitations in other areas outside of the controller interface.

     

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,372
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Naevius
    Would Magic be a better game if you had ALL the cards in your deck?

    This.

    Would chess be a better game if you could only chose 6 pieces to play with, instead of the full set?

    All depends on the game design, and I don't favor games where the element of winning involves more luck in guessing what your opponent will bring to the fight rather than how well they employ the skills at their disposal.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Azrile

    It does dumb down the game because it turns every mob into ´mob´ 

    I will give two examples of skills that are being ´taken away´...

    Lets suppose you are fighting a goblin, and then a skeleton.

    With your 6-8 keys, those two mobs are exactly the same (assuming same level).  They both run up to you and whack you with swords.

    Now lets add a skill  ´ turn undead´. 

    This spell can be used to fear the skeleton for 4 seconds, but not the goblin.

    Now these two mobs are completely different in how you fight them.

    Now lets add a rock elemental that punches you in the face as it´s main attack.

    And now lets add ´disarm´   another skill that is getting taken away when we reduce the game to 8 keys.

    That skeleton attacks you, you can turn it ( fear it for 4 seconds)  and then you can disarm it, which reduces the damage it can do to you.

    That goblin runs at you, you can disarm it

    That rock elemental runs at you, those two skills are useless

    Just in that brief example,  You now have 3 mobs which would be exactly the same in your game, but would be completely different if players had those two extra abilities to use.  Yes, there will ALWAYS be players who even if you gave them disarm and turn undead would still cast fireballx8 in the face.  But in a good game, those type of players should always perform worse than players who use all their skills effectively.  If I turn that skeleton and then disarm him, maybe I escape the encountered uninjured, where if you cast fireballx8  you finish at 75% health.

    By removing skills, you turn every player in Fireballx8  and you turn that skeleton, goblin and rock elemental into ´mob lvl 12´

     

    I will use WOW as an example, even though it has a lot of action bars, they still have dumbed it down

    When fighting mobs while leveling, there are two mobs..  have ranged,   does not have ranged.   That is it... everything else is just the graphic used to represent the mob.  You may fight a ranged mob differently than a melee only mob.

    As far as your skills.   1-90  I can level any character easily by only using 3 skills.  Nothing about the mob at all changes what keys I press.   I run up to the mob, any mob, and press  123332     mob is dead.   Nothing about the mob, nor nothing the mob does changes what abilities I use and in what order I use them.

    that is dumbed down gameplay compared to what I talked about before.

     Lineage 2 player posing as a WoW player spotted! 

    And your logic is faulty. Sure there was the option to do what you describe in lineage 2, most definitely. But having the option and actually using it are 2 different things. For my playtime in Lineage 2 (about 8 years, from launch to Gw2) I have never, even once used turn undead to fear them away. 90%+ of the players in this game never used that silly skill. It wasn't on either of my 3 rows of skills. 

    Berserker's Disarm however is up and alive in every game. They just call it daze now, and it makes your target unable to use any skills, including auto attack against you, for XX seconds. 

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    My theory.   LAS's in modern MMORPG's aren't necessarily being introduced in order to release the game on both consoles and PC's, rather they are being used to design combat systems that appeal to gamers who traditionally gamed on consoles.

    I dare say GW1, GW2, ESO in particular are all geared to appealing to a console oriented gamer, and not one who traditionally has favored standard MMORPG gameplay.

    Further evidence, these same games have "action oriented" combat, another console hallmark, simplified skill systems, again, from consoles, heavily solo, story driven content, again, all hallmarks of console games, and only recently incorporated into MMORPG design.

    All of these changes are being made to appeal to the much larger console player base, and draw them into the MMORPG space, just not necessarily on a console platform, since it has limitations in other areas outside of the controller interface.

     

     

    I wonder if you have ever played a console RPG....

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    My theory.   LAS's in modern MMORPG's aren't necessarily being introduced in order to release the game on both consoles and PC's, rather they are being used to design combat systems that appeal to gamers who traditionally gamed on consoles.

    I dare say GW1, GW2, ESO in particular are all geared to appealing to a console oriented gamer, and not one who traditionally has favored standard MMORPG gameplay.

    Further evidence, these same games have "action oriented" combat, another console hallmark, simplified skill systems, again, from consoles, heavily solo, story driven content, again, all hallmarks of console games, and only recently incorporated into MMORPG design.

    All of these changes are being made to appeal to the much larger console player base, and draw them into the MMORPG space, just not necessarily on a console platform, since it has limitations in other areas outside of the controller interface.

     

     

    I wonder if you have ever played a console RPG....

    lol yes exactly.

    You know, contrary to popular belief, PC gaming can be, and often is, just as action oriented as console gaming.  FPS, RTS, and MOBA are all extremely twitchy genres that either started on pc or are still pc centric.  Also, the vast majority of pro gaming, which involves INSANE twitch, is on PC.

     

    Sorry, but consoles have no monopoly on action oriented gameplay.

     

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • OrtwigOrtwig Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Naevius
    Would Magic be a better game if you had ALL the cards in your deck?

    This.

    Would chess be a better game if you could only chose 6 pieces to play with, instead of the full set?

    All depends on the game design, and I don't favor games where the element of winning involves more luck in guessing what your opponent will bring to the fight rather than how well they employ the skills at their disposal.

     

    The analogy of chess to MMORPGs is wrong here.  The question is would chess be a better game if there were 200 pieces and were played on a 400x400 square board?  

    The limited number model is pretty standard for gameplay, and the analogies of more players on a sports team than playable positions are accurate.  The coach picks which players make best sense for a particular match.  Recipes have a set number of ingredients, but there are thousands of possible choices that can be used in cooking.  Magic the Gathering has a limited number of cards allowed in the deck but thousands of cards to choose from.

    The limited model actually pushes players to think about their choices AND it introduces more variety to the game.  TSW has 8 active slots and 8 passive slots, but 525 skills to choose from.  This works out to 77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 possible builds, and even if only 1 millionth of 1% of those are viable that's still 772,585,402 possible builds.  Here's math: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/

    Finally, it pushes for matching your build or deck to a particular challenge.

    Sure, you can have your 200x200 chessboard, but how many pieces do you really use?  I assert that players are actually creating more cookie cutter builds in a WoW-style game than they do with limited slots and pools of abilities.

    (By the way, a chess-like game where you could pick 6 "types" from a 200-piece pool for a match would be kinda cool.)  ;)

  • YamotaYamota Member UncommonPosts: 6,593
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Karahandras
    TBH I don't think the current games that are using/going to use limited skills are doing so to add any choice/depth to said game, but are doing so so that they can be played with a controller(usually x-box).

    I don't think any of the MMORPGs we've talked about here with LAS have native controller support.  The only way you can play them with a controller is to use a third party tool like xpadder...soooooo yeah invalid argument.

    I think you missed his point. The point being, they are designed purposefully easier and with limited action/strategy to accommodate a future console release if the game does well enough to justify it. I think this is the reasoning behind a lot of games that choose a LAS. It's certainly the reason why ESO is limited to so few skills, and I believe it's what GW2 and possibly WildStar have in mind as well. D3 is another example of this. In my opinion the console version is infinitely better because playing it on PC feels like a waste of a keyboard. It's like the LAS is designed with a controller in mind for the future.

     

    With a limited controller comes limited options.

    D3 console is a completely different game.  In fact, you can't even play D3 on PC with a controller.  Blizzard stated that they won't add controller support to D3 because it's balanced for KB and mouse.

     

    It's a nice conspiracy theory, but there is very little evidence to back it up.  In fact, one of the only Mmorpgs on console, FFIV, does not have an LAS.

     

    Oh and just to add, most of the LAS games we've talked about here like Wildstar and GW2, have very PC centric UIs.  Mouse driven inventory, menus, etc.

    If an MMORPG comes out with a UI like skyrim, then you may have something.  But saying that a game is conspiring to be on console just because it has LAS, even though everything else is PC centric...is flimsy at best.

    Conspiracy for something so blatantly obvious. You sure are gullable arent you. Probably one of those that believe whatever the PR people of company says.

    You're really quick to assume that you're right and say how gullible I am, but you're not so quick to actually look at the facts of the matter.

    There are three MMORPGs that I know of which have, or will soon have, both PC and console versions.  FFXI, FFIV, and ESO.

    Of those three, TWO of them have UNlimited action sets.

    And as for the other limited action set games we've discussed like GW, GW2, and Wildstar?  NONE of them have any plans for console ports.

    In fact, if you've ever played GW2, you should know that it would probably work TERRIBLE on consoles.  Yes, it has a limited action set, but MANY of the abilities are ground targeted and require quick mouse movements to use properly.  Also, some classes like Elementalist have like 14 abilities they can use at any one time.  Good luck using your controller with that.

    Anyway, I am sure that the idea that an LAS might help a game get on consoles in the theoretical future definitely crosses dev's minds.  But to suggest that a dev, whose only CURRENT plans are to release the game for PC, would completely change their design just for the hypothetical possibility that the game may go to consoles at some point in the future is kind of ridiculous.

    No, it isn't. And your cherry picking and strawmen arguments wont change that. Proffesional game development is about MONEY and if you can introduce your game to several platforms you make more MONEY.

    As for your other arguments. Being able to go for consoles is the main reason, should have said that instead of only reason, but other reason is to make it easier to balance, as they only need to balance a skill with a limited number of other skills, and that takes less dev work which again saves MONEY.

    Your notion that there are X number of more combinations if you limit the skill set is utterly flawed. A game that has unlimited skillset has just as MORE combinations as one with limited skillset (assuming the same number of skills). The difference is that the one with unlimited skillset can still only use a few skills at the same time so they have MORE number of different combinations, for every encounter, and it is completely dynamic and done on the fly. And this makes for a more difficult and complex game than one where you are set to a certain combination and can only change between fights.

    This is actually simple math. If you have 5 skills, available at all times, you can use the combination 1,2,3,4,5 or 5,4,3,2,1 or 3,2,5,14 and so on with a total number of combinations of 120. So your claim that an unlimited skillset has only one combination is WRONG.

    A game with 5 skills, limited to using three at a time, has the combinations 1,2,3 or 3,2,1 and so on with only 60 number of combinations which actually has less combinations than the one above and they have to wait between fights to change to another combination. And seeing as that is usually a tedious process, people are not likely to do that for every encounter.

    Now increase the number of skills to 20 and the unlimited skillset has close to infinity (for practical means of playing a computer game) where as one with 20 skills with only 5 usable at any one time has only 120 for any encounter.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Karahandras
    TBH I don't think the current games that are using/going to use limited skills are doing so to add any choice/depth to said game, but are doing so so that they can be played with a controller(usually x-box).

    I don't think any of the MMORPGs we've talked about here with LAS have native controller support.  The only way you can play them with a controller is to use a third party tool like xpadder...soooooo yeah invalid argument.

    I think you missed his point. The point being, they are designed purposefully easier and with limited action/strategy to accommodate a future console release if the game does well enough to justify it. I think this is the reasoning behind a lot of games that choose a LAS. It's certainly the reason why ESO is limited to so few skills, and I believe it's what GW2 and possibly WildStar have in mind as well. D3 is another example of this. In my opinion the console version is infinitely better because playing it on PC feels like a waste of a keyboard. It's like the LAS is designed with a controller in mind for the future.

     

    With a limited controller comes limited options.

    D3 console is a completely different game.  In fact, you can't even play D3 on PC with a controller.  Blizzard stated that they won't add controller support to D3 because it's balanced for KB and mouse.

     

    It's a nice conspiracy theory, but there is very little evidence to back it up.  In fact, one of the only Mmorpgs on console, FFIV, does not have an LAS.

     

    Oh and just to add, most of the LAS games we've talked about here like Wildstar and GW2, have very PC centric UIs.  Mouse driven inventory, menus, etc.

    If an MMORPG comes out with a UI like skyrim, then you may have something.  But saying that a game is conspiring to be on console just because it has LAS, even though everything else is PC centric...is flimsy at best.

    Conspiracy for something so blatantly obvious. You sure are gullable arent you. Probably one of those that believe whatever the PR people of company says.

    You're really quick to assume that you're right and say how gullible I am, but you're not so quick to actually look at the facts of the matter.

    There are three MMORPGs that I know of which have, or will soon have, both PC and console versions.  FFXI, FFIV, and ESO.

    Of those three, TWO of them have UNlimited action sets.

    And as for the other limited action set games we've discussed like GW, GW2, and Wildstar?  NONE of them have any plans for console ports.

    In fact, if you've ever played GW2, you should know that it would probably work TERRIBLE on consoles.  Yes, it has a limited action set, but MANY of the abilities are ground targeted and require quick mouse movements to use properly.  Also, some classes like Elementalist have like 14 abilities they can use at any one time.  Good luck using your controller with that.

    Anyway, I am sure that the idea that an LAS might help a game get on consoles in the theoretical future definitely crosses dev's minds.  But to suggest that a dev, whose only CURRENT plans are to release the game for PC, would completely change their design just for the hypothetical possibility that the game may go to consoles at some point in the future is kind of ridiculous.

    No, it isn't. And your cherry picking and strawmen arguments wont change that. Proffesional game development is about MONEY and if you can introduce your game to several platforms you make more MONEY.

    As for your other arguments. Being able to go for consoles is the main reason, should have said that instead of only reason, but other reason is to make it easier to balance, as they only need to balance a skill with a limited number of other skills, and that takes less dev work which again saves MONEY.

    Your notion that there are X number of more combinations if you limit the skill set is utterly flawed. A game that has unlimited skillset has just as MORE combinations as one with limited skillset (assuming the same number of skills). The difference is that the one with unlimited skillset can still only use a few skills at the same time so they have MORE number of different combinations, for every encounter, and it is completely dynamic and done on the fly. And this makes for a more difficult and complex game than one where you are set to a certain combination and can only change between fights.

    This is actually simple math. If you have 5 skills, available at all times, you can use the combination 1,2,3,4,5 or 5,4,3,2,1 or 3,2,5,14 and so on with a total number of combinations of 120. So your claim that an unlimited skillset has only one combination is WRONG.

    A game with 5 skills, limited to using three at a time, has the combinations 1,2,3 or 3,2,1 and so on with only 60 number of combinations which actually has less combinations than the one above and they have to wait between fights to change to another combination. And seeing as that is usually a tedious process, people are not likely to do that for every encounter.

    Now increase the number of skills to 20 and the unlimited skillset has close to infinity (for practical means of playing a computer game) where as one with 20 skills with only 5 usable at any one time has only 120 for any encounter.

    Wow.

    Okay so first, cherrypicking?  Seriously, cherrypicking?

    I listed the only three MMORPGs I could think of that are on console and PC.  And after some research the only other one I could find was DCUO, which I never played.  So yeah, no cherrypicking here.  Once again, most PC MMORPGs with a LAS have no plans  for a console release.  Like, if these LAS games were all intended to be released on consoles as well...don't you think they would at least have native controller support?

    Also...I have to ask, have you ever played a PC game that is actually dumbed down by it being also on consoles???  It's pretty easy to tell, the menu systems are usually all jacked up because they are meant for a controller, sometimes the keybindings are just weird.  Like, play Skyrim or Oblivion, then play Morrowwind, you will see the difference.

    Also, I completely agree that an unlimited skillset does not have only one combination of skills to use.  I have no clue where you got the notion that I ever said it did, but hey, I'm with you here with beating up that strawman.  Die strawman, die.

    Maybe you are confusing the fact that I said an unlimited skill set, without anything like talent trees or classes to limit the skill set, has only one build (which it does) with it only have one combination of usable skills.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    Originally posted by Yamota
    The only reason they limited the skill bar is to make it console friendly, not for game play reasons and the long ass list the OP made. LOL

    Many of the games being mentioned were never planned to release on consoles. Plus do you think the limiting your hand to just  7 cards in Magic the Gathering was done with consoles in mind. No buddy, less is more. The math supports this. You need to think before you blurt out something stupid like that.

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Karahandras
    TBH I don't think the current games that are using/going to use limited skills are doing so to add any choice/depth to said game, but are doing so so that they can be played with a controller(usually x-box).

    I don't think any of the MMORPGs we've talked about here with LAS have native controller support.  The only way you can play them with a controller is to use a third party tool like xpadder...soooooo yeah invalid argument.

    I think you missed his point. The point being, they are designed purposefully easier and with limited action/strategy to accommodate a future console release if the game does well enough to justify it. I think this is the reasoning behind a lot of games that choose a LAS. It's certainly the reason why ESO is limited to so few skills, and I believe it's what GW2 and possibly WildStar have in mind as well. D3 is another example of this. In my opinion the console version is infinitely better because playing it on PC feels like a waste of a keyboard. It's like the LAS is designed with a controller in mind for the future.

     

    With a limited controller comes limited options.

    D3 console is a completely different game.  In fact, you can't even play D3 on PC with a controller.  Blizzard stated that they won't add controller support to D3 because it's balanced for KB and mouse.

     

    It's a nice conspiracy theory, but there is very little evidence to back it up.  In fact, one of the only Mmorpgs on console, FFIV, does not have an LAS.

     

    Oh and just to add, most of the LAS games we've talked about here like Wildstar and GW2, have very PC centric UIs.  Mouse driven inventory, menus, etc.

    If an MMORPG comes out with a UI like skyrim, then you may have something.  But saying that a game is conspiring to be on console just because it has LAS, even though everything else is PC centric...is flimsy at best.

    Conspiracy for something so blatantly obvious. You sure are gullable arent you. Probably one of those that believe whatever the PR people of company says.

    I don't think anyone should listen to you at this point. Obviously you're here only to disrupt the discussion.

     

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Yamota
     

    Wow.

    Okay so first, cherrypicking?  Seriously, cherrypicking?

    I listed the only three MMORPGs I could think of that are on console and PC.  And after some research the only other one I could find was DCUO, which I never played.  So yeah, no cherrypicking here.  Once again, most PC MMORPGs with a LAS have no plans  for a console release.  Like, if these LAS games were all intended to be released on consoles as well...don't you think they would at least have native controller support?

    Also...I have to ask, have you ever played a PC game that is actually dumbed down by it being also on consoles???  It's pretty easy to tell, the menu systems are usually all jacked up because they are meant for a controller, sometimes the keybindings are just weird.  Like, play Skyrim or Oblivion, then play Morrowwind, you will see the difference.

    Also, I completely agree that an unlimited skillset does not have only one combination of skills to use.  I have no clue where you got the notion that I ever said it did, but hey, I'm with you here with beating up that strawman.  Die strawman, die.

    Maybe you are confusing the fact that I said an unlimited skill set, without anything like talent trees or classes to limit the skill set, has only one build (which it does) with it only have one combination of usable skills.

    Don't indulge him, please.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by JudgeUK

    OP - whilst I admire your determination to promote the reduced skill bars, I feel you are overlooking what happens away from the forums, i.e actual gameplay.

    Irrespective of whether players have 20 skills or 7, sooner or later there will be the most popular class builds/guides out there. Players will then use these more or less parrot fashion to get "highest dps" "best build for pvp" etc etc.

    If the other side is stupid enough to pick the complementing set each time, then you are correct. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Naevius
    Would Magic be a better game if you had ALL the cards in your deck?

    This.

    Would chess be a better game if you could only chose 6 pieces to play with, instead of the full set?

    All depends on the game design, and I don't favor games where the element of winning involves more luck in guessing what your opponent will bring to the fight rather than how well they employ the skills at their disposal.

     

    The analogy of chess to MMORPGs is wrong here.  The question is would chess be a better game if there were 200 pieces and were played on a 400x400 square board?  

    The limited number model is pretty standard for gameplay, and the analogies of more players on a sports team than playable positions are accurate.  The coach picks which players make best sense for a particular match.  Recipes have a set number of ingredients, but there are thousands of possible choices that can be used in cooking.  Magic the Gathering has a limited number of cards allowed in the deck but thousands of cards to choose from.

    The limited model actually pushes players to think about their choices AND it introduces more variety to the game.  TSW has 8 active slots and 8 passive slots, but 525 skills to choose from.  This works out to 77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 possible builds, and even if only 1 millionth of 1% of those are viable that's still 772,585,402 possible builds.  Here's math: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/

    Finally, it pushes for matching your build or deck to a particular challenge.

    Sure, you can have your 200x200 chessboard, but how many pieces do you really use?  I assert that players are actually creating more cookie cutter builds in a WoW-style game than they do with limited slots and pools of abilities.

    (By the way, a chess-like game where you could pick 6 "types" from a 200-piece pool for a match would be kinda cool.)  ;)

    The whole "building your deck for a particular challenge" thing only works if you know exactly what you're facing in that particular challenge.  AKA, that same dungeon you've ran 5 times before.  That's boring to me.  It simply means I shuffle some skills around before I start, knowing full well the content I'm about to experience.

     

    I'd rather be given an unlimited skill bar and not know exactly what I'm facing going into the battle so I can adapt on the fly and use the abilities best suited to the given situation.

     

    Limited skill bar + unknown nature of challenge = luck if you happen to build your "deck" to suit the challenge.  I'd rather not rely on luck.

    image
  • OrtwigOrtwig Member UncommonPosts: 1,163
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Naevius
    Would Magic be a better game if you had ALL the cards in your deck?

    This.

    Would chess be a better game if you could only chose 6 pieces to play with, instead of the full set?

    All depends on the game design, and I don't favor games where the element of winning involves more luck in guessing what your opponent will bring to the fight rather than how well they employ the skills at their disposal.

     

    The analogy of chess to MMORPGs is wrong here.  The question is would chess be a better game if there were 200 pieces and were played on a 400x400 square board?  

    The limited number model is pretty standard for gameplay, and the analogies of more players on a sports team than playable positions are accurate.  The coach picks which players make best sense for a particular match.  Recipes have a set number of ingredients, but there are thousands of possible choices that can be used in cooking.  Magic the Gathering has a limited number of cards allowed in the deck but thousands of cards to choose from.

    The limited model actually pushes players to think about their choices AND it introduces more variety to the game.  TSW has 8 active slots and 8 passive slots, but 525 skills to choose from.  This works out to 77,258,540,228,633,700,000,000 possible builds, and even if only 1 millionth of 1% of those are viable that's still 772,585,402 possible builds.  Here's math: http://karl3d.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/tsw-builds-final/

    Finally, it pushes for matching your build or deck to a particular challenge.

    Sure, you can have your 200x200 chessboard, but how many pieces do you really use?  I assert that players are actually creating more cookie cutter builds in a WoW-style game than they do with limited slots and pools of abilities.

    (By the way, a chess-like game where you could pick 6 "types" from a 200-piece pool for a match would be kinda cool.)  ;)

    The whole "building your deck for a particular challenge" thing only works if you know exactly what you're facing in that particular challenge.  AKA, that same dungeon you've ran 5 times before.  That's boring to me.  It simply means I shuffle some skills around before I start, knowing full well the content I'm about to experience.

     

    I'd rather be given an unlimited skill bar and not know exactly what I'm facing going into the battle so I can adapt on the fly and use the abilities best suited to the given situation.

     

    Limited skill bar + unknown nature of challenge = luck if you happen to build your "deck" to suit the challenge.  I'd rather not rely on luck.

    Well, in most MMOs these days there's very little random element to encounters -- people know (and are expected to know) what they are getting into; hell, there's thousands of YouTube videos and addons that are designed to tell you EXACTLY what to do in a dungeon, raid, what have you.  There are raid groups who will kick you if you don't know EXACTLY what to do when.  So that's more a criticism of dungeon design and player culture than on skillbar systems.  

    I think the nicest tradeoff would be encounters designed to keep players on their toes (a random element), but the ability to quickly and efficiently slot in certain abilities once you know what's going on.  A few games are experimenting with this, but we're definitely not there yet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
     

    The whole "building your deck for a particular challenge" thing only works if you know exactly what you're facing in that particular challenge.  AKA, that same dungeon you've ran 5 times before.  That's boring to me.  It simply means I shuffle some skills around before I start, knowing full well the content I'm about to experience.

     

    When someone builds a deck for a CCG game, they do not know what deck their opponent is playing. And if you think that it is only luck, you will be wrong. There are decks that are more versatile than others. Same can be done here.

    In fact, it is done in games like D3 where the encounters (i.e. dungeons) are random.

     

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,372

    Originally posted by BailoPan15

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    My theory.   LAS's in modern MMORPG's aren't necessarily being introduced in order to release the game on both consoles and PC's, rather they are being used to design combat systems that appeal to gamers who traditionally gamed on consoles.

    I dare say GW1, GW2, ESO in particular are all geared to appealing to a console oriented gamer, and not one who traditionally has favored standard MMORPG gameplay.

    Further evidence, these same games have "action oriented" combat, another console hallmark, simplified skill systems, again, from consoles, heavily solo, story driven content, again, all hallmarks of console games, and only recently incorporated into MMORPG design.

    All of these changes are being made to appeal to the much larger console player base, and draw them into the MMORPG space, just not necessarily on a console platform, since it has limitations in other areas outside of the controller interface.

    I wonder if you have ever played a console RPG....

    Nope.  I only game on PC's, period.  There are no other platforms in my world, at least not for MMORPG's.

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by BailoPan15
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    My theory.   LAS's in modern MMORPG's aren't necessarily being introduced in order to release the game on both consoles and PC's, rather they are being used to design combat systems that appeal to gamers who traditionally gamed on consoles.

    I dare say GW1, GW2, ESO in particular are all geared to appealing to a console oriented gamer, and not one who traditionally has favored standard MMORPG gameplay.

    Further evidence, these same games have "action oriented" combat, another console hallmark, simplified skill systems, again, from consoles, heavily solo, story driven content, again, all hallmarks of console games, and only recently incorporated into MMORPG design.

    All of these changes are being made to appeal to the much larger console player base, and draw them into the MMORPG space, just not necessarily on a console platform, since it has limitations in other areas outside of the controller interface.

    I wonder if you have ever played a console RPG....

    lol yes exactly.

    You know, contrary to popular belief, PC gaming can be, and often is, just as action oriented as console gaming.  FPS, RTS, and MOBA are all extremely twitchy genres that either started on pc or are still pc centric.  Also, the vast majority of pro gaming, which involves INSANE twitch, is on PC.

    Sorry, but consoles have no monopoly on action oriented gameplay.

    I don''t play FPS, RTS, and MOBA's, and MMORPGs have traditionally been and are best (IMO) played on a PC, without action oriented game play.  I eschew games such as GW1, GW2 and anything else that uses controller style game play rather than PC keyboard and mouse. 

     

     

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
     

    The whole "building your deck for a particular challenge" thing only works if you know exactly what you're facing in that particular challenge.  AKA, that same dungeon you've ran 5 times before.  That's boring to me.  It simply means I shuffle some skills around before I start, knowing full well the content I'm about to experience.

     

    When someone builds a deck for a CCG game, they do not know what deck their opponent is playing. And if you think that it is only luck, you will be wrong. There are decks that are more versatile than others. Same can be done here.

    In fact, it is done in games like D3 where the encounters (i.e. dungeons) are random.

     

    That analogy only works if I randomly draw abilities during the match.  Oh, and if the match is turn-based.  And my abilities contained a large enough pool that I could reliably draw an incredibly varied stack of abilities over multiple successive encounters.  And I needed to draw resources to use the abilities I've drawn.  And if a core element to each class (deck) was the ability to spawn multiple pawns capable of special abilities themselves.  None of that sounds very fun in an MMO already (save for maybe spawning some pawns!).  Add in real-time combat and the shorter amount of time battles last in MMOs, and it falls apart completely.  You could lengthen battles so even 1 character versus 1 mob or player lasts 5-10 minutes straight (or more, if CCG games are the model by which we build) and is slow and methodical, but I doubt you'd play a game like that.  Not action-oriented enough, too much time sink to get any progression done.  There's a reason turn-based combat isn't wildly popular in modern MMOs and RPGs.

     

    D3 =/= MMO.  It is designed around a singleplayer experience; multiplayer is optional.  Classes must be able to adequately handle all encounters by definition, else the singleplayer game itself is broken.  Though there is something to be said for random encounters being spawned that I think MMOs could definitely use.  The whole idea that dungeons are static and, as such, can be memorized until the only barrier to completion is having adequate gear farmed is so antiquated that it should be a shame to have such dungeons in an MMO anymore.  Venturing into the unknown is much more exciting than farming the same exact dungeon multiple times.

     

    Assuming you don't run content that is memorized (thereby turning the "prep" stage of limited skill bar combat into a boringly simple affair) the player will not know exactly what he/she is about to face.  Again, this means his/her "build" comes down to luck (as MMO classes prove far less versatile in a group dungeon setting than RPG classes do in singleplayer games).  If, in response to this, you're going to enable the player to switch out his builds on the fly in battle, what's the point of making the player switch at all?  That's just a cumbersome feature that can be bypassed by simply allowing the player to place multiple bars on his screen.

     

    The only system I've seen in which it seemed uniquely-enough built to make limited skill bars a boon instead of a detriment was Spellborn.  With a system like that, I could get behind limited skill bars.  Otherwise, I cannot see a situation in which limiting the player's ability to use all of his spells/skills makes for a more enjoyable experience than allowing him to use whatever is available to him, whenever the situation calls for it.

    image
  • furbansfurbans Member UncommonPosts: 968

    Whenever some new MMO comes along this same thread gets started to defend their precious new MMO and try to justify that it's the better.

     

    Limited skill slots/bar are completely irrelevant.  If your combat design and mechanics are good and gameplay is good then it doesn't matter if you got 8 or 18 abilities.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie

    D3 =/= MMO.  It is designed around a singleplayer experience; multiplayer is optional.  Classes must be able to adequately handle all encounters by definition, else the singleplayer game itself is broken.  Though there is something to be said for random encounters being spawned that I think MMOs could definitely use.  The whole idea that dungeons are static and, as such, can be memorized until the only barrier to completion is having adequate gear farmed is so antiquated that it should be a shame to have such dungeons in an MMO anymore.  Venturing into the unknown is much more exciting than farming the same exact dungeon multiple times.

     

    Yes, MP is optional, but it still works well, and lots of players are playing MP mode. In fact, MP mode in D3, to me, is more fun than most 5-man type dungeons precisely because

    a) random dungeons,

    b) variety of builds because of the limited skill bars + how gear are done.

    There is no reason why that cannot work in a MMO ... heck .. running 5-man dungeons are essentially D3 gameplay without the randomness, and trinity.

    And if MMOs are more like ARPGs where you can solo, and you can multiplayer ... it is a good thing ... options are good.

     

  • ExiledTyrantExiledTyrant Member UncommonPosts: 69

    The ignorance regarding this threads knowledge on console controllers is quite frankly appalling. It is not the  the console controllers fault there are limited skill bars. Console controllers have far more than enough buttons to do everything a keyboard/mouse does but better. It's like no one arguing the point has even sat down and looked at a controller.

    An extremely basic emulator can allow  64 skills to be used at any time, arguably 56- 48 if you want to tailor some outside functionality such as inventory character screen, but if you hybrid the mouse in you can just select the the old fashion way by point and click. A more advanced emulator could allow you to access  double that, and with Tera like compatibility the combination of buttons could then take that number even farther. This is all without controller support.  With controller support and enough backing for all the systems a controller contains the possibilities are nearing endless combinations.

     

    The above is a fact. Arguing with it might as well be as silly as arguing with me about  global warming, which sadly by the looks of these post it seems some of you would try to do.

     

     

    Also last time I checked keyboards don't have 6 - axis motion detection, pressure sensitive control, touch pad integration which is getting better each time I see it ( now we are drawing simple items into a game but in a few years who knows), a shape that has been modeled over literally 1000's of different hands specifically for gaming, or the basic closeness of buttons  and logical layout a controller posses.

     

    My opinion is that I like limited skill bars, but not because it's less to a hassle to bind keys. Even older MMOs like DDO only have me bind around 32 keys and I played the sorcerer ( they need to fix the EK). I am a proponent of specialization, I like the the strategy involved, and if you have ever played a console game of this Century you would realize games like Devil May cry, or fighting games like Soul Calibur can quickly turn 4 buttons into a skill list of hundreds without clogging my game up with useless information. For instance GW2 has limited skills although those skills can morph mid game play.

     

     

    This will be my first and last post on the discussion.

     

    "Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Member Posts: 2,083
    Originally posted by ExiledTyrant

    The ignorance regarding this threads knowledge on console controllers is quite frankly appalling. It is not the  the console controllers fault there are limited skill bars. Console controllers have far more than enough buttons to do everything a keyboard/mouse does but better. It's like no one arguing the point has even sat down and looked at a controller.

    An extremely basic emulator can allow  64 skills to be used at any time, arguably 56- 48 if you want to tailor some outside functionality such as inventory character screen, but if you hybrid the mouse in you can just select the the old fashion way by point and click. A more advanced emulator could allow you to access  double that, and with Tera like compatibility the combination of buttons could then take that number even farther. This is all without controller support.  With controller support and enough backing for all the systems a controller contains the possibilities are nearing endless combinations.

     

    The above is a fact. Arguing with it might as well be as silly as arguing with me about  global warming, which sadly by the looks of these post it seems some of you would try to do.

     

     

    Also last time I checked keyboards don't have 6 - axis motion detection, pressure sensitive control, touch pad integration which is getting better each time I see it ( now we are drawing simple items into a game but in a few years who knows), a shape that has been modeled over literally 1000's of different hands specifically for gaming, or the basic closeness of buttons  and logical layout a controller posses.

     

    My opinion is that I like limited skill bars, but not because it's less to a hassle to bind keys. Even older MMOs like DDO only have me bind around 32 keys and I played the sorcerer ( they need to fix the EK). I am a proponent of specialization, I like the the strategy involved, and if you have ever played a console game of this Century you would realize games like Devil May cry, or fighting games like Soul Calibur can quickly turn 4 buttons into a skill list of hundreds without clogging my game up with useless information. For instance GW2 has limited skills although those skills can morph mid game play.

     

     

    This will be my first and last post on the discussion.

     

    The sad part is, I would argue with you about global warming :)

     

    A fairly strong post about controller complexity though, I can see where and what you are getting at even if I disagree personally.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
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    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    The issue is certainly NOT of the controller. You can even buy a mouse with tons of keys on it.

    The issue is whether "more is fun". Certainly no one is arguing to have just one button .... but having 20 or 30 buttons are getting to the point where players are fighting buttons (unless you train, train and train, and normal players just don't do that for merely games) instead of playing.

    Plus, who says you have to use the SAME set of limited key all the time? D3 has 6 skills + 4 passive at any one time, but you can switch as long as you are not in combat. So the meta game is actually more complex (it has tons of skills) because you have to consider combo, and not *just* what skill to use.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie

    The whole "building your deck for a particular challenge" thing only works if you know exactly what you're facing in that particular challenge.  AKA, that same dungeon you've ran 5 times before.  That's boring to me.  It simply means I shuffle some skills around before I start, knowing full well the content I'm about to experience.

     

    That is true of the current state of dungeon/raid/PvE content. Maybe (hopefully) they will start changing that. On the other hand, when it comes to PVP - much like MOBAs, FPS, TCGs and other PVP games - there is the added dimension of prediction and preparation. If there was a single best set, all GW teams would be the same, only 3 characters and a predefined item set would be viable in LoL, and only one deck would ever get used in Hearthstone. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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