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Why limited skill bars are a good thing

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  • AzrileAzrile Member Posts: 2,582
    Originally posted by timtrack

    I'm a bit of a fan of both sides here. I do enjoy a complex system with many options and reactive abilities such as the skeleton/goblin scenario. However, i'm not as "hardcore" as i used to be and i don't play nearly as much these days. I just don't have the time. For that reason i enjoy the limited skill-sets as well, simply because i can be AFK for a week or a month and it will only take me a couple of minutes to get back in to the action. With more complex games it could take hours to get back in to your old keybindings and setting the muscle memory for that Fear Undead reactive skill you had on shift-F5. And maybe i only had 3 hours to play that week, and i had to spend them "learning" my game again.

    Exactly.  I am in no way insulting twitch games.  I love playing Diablo3.

    Another big thing is just the speed of the game.  If you have a lot of abilities and want that decision-making, then you can´t balance your game around mobs dying in 3 seconds like in D3.  You also have to push out the GCD, or make other resources much more important than GCDs for overall DPS.   In other words, in a game like D3, you are expected, and the game is built around you smashing a button every second.  Rogues in WOW are built around you smashing a button every second.  If you miss a GCD, you have a big DPS loss.   If you add more skills, then you have to give players time to think...  which means maybe making that 1 sec GCD to be 3seconds, or else make mana or energy the real constraint to your overall dps over the length of time it takes to kill a normal mob.

  • NaeviusNaevius Member UncommonPosts: 334
    Would Magic be a better game if you had ALL the cards in your deck?
  • AzrileAzrile Member Posts: 2,582

    Actually, it's ideas like this that made me create this OP in the first place.  No one will argue that they want less mob variety.  But there is really no correlation between mob variety and a limited skill bar.  So this is a straw man argument.

    In fact BOTH examples given above work AGAINST this argument.  WoW is given as an example of a game with no mob variety, yet is does not have a limited skill bar.  And Everquest is given as an example of a game with lots of mob variety, yet it DOES have a limited skill bar.

    So I mean, you guys have basically worked to invalidate your own argument ;)

    Just not true.  WOW has ´unlimited´  skillbars, but they have gutted all abilities except the core rotation abilities.  Basically WOW let´s you put 100 skills on your toolbars, but only 5 of them will ever be used while questing.   Yes, WOW has a disarm, but it is worthless during questing.. mobs do just as much damage with or without a weapon.    They also make any non-generic mob immune to everything except basic damage.   You can´t fear, turn, disorient, stun, freeze or disarm bosses.   So while, yes, you can put a ton of abilities on your toolbar, you are just never going to use them.   Also, WOW has finally come to grips with this and is removing all those ´excess´ abilities in WoD.

  • AzrileAzrile Member Posts: 2,582
    Originally posted by Naevius

     


    Originally posted by Azrile It does dumb down the game because it turns every mob into ´mob´  ... That skeleton attacks you, you can turn it ( fear it for 4 seconds)  and then you can disarm it, which reduces the damage it can do to you. That goblin runs at you, you can disarm it That rock elemental runs at you, those two skills are useless

     

    Nothing prevents a a game like GW from having disarm, turn, and fireball skills - you just need to figure out which you wish to carry on your limited bar. Makes the game more interesting.

    so then you are going to use those same skills on every single mob?    With a limited toolset, you end up using the same skills on every single fight.  There is no decision-making.. you just mash the 1 key repeatedly.

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Member UncommonPosts: 1,729
    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Limited skill bars are destroying what little complexity this genre once had. Sorry, but even though I'm older doesn't mean I have trouble using a keyboard. Any game with limited skill bars is a shadow of what it could be, even the two I'm currently playing now.

     

    It means less choices and a dumbed down interface/genre in my opinion, and that's not likely to change.

    +1

    Played-Everything
    Playing-LoL

  • SmashixSmashix Member UncommonPosts: 91

    I'm not a fan of limited skill bars, but perhaps mostly due to the implementations I've seen. Take GW2, for example, since that is the game like this I have tried most recently and still play off and on if my friends are on.

    I don't generally mind being limited to 10 skills, but I'm really limited much more:

    1. I am limited by my weapon of choice. For example, as a warrior, if I use a bow, I will have the same 5 bow skills from level 1 to 80). If I use another weapon as my main weapon, or even if I switch between weapons, maybe I can have 10 skills from 1 to 80. What I have found in reality is that the long bow is the best weapon while leveling, even at close range, so I really use the same 5 weapon skills almost all of the time during levels 1 - 80.

    2. I am limited because I can't even rearrange the skills how I like. For example, on my guardian, when I use a greatsword, "Leap of Faith", which teleports me to my foe while attacking, is locked to skill slot 3; the similar skill on the Sword, "Flashing Blade", which teleports me to my foe while attacking, is locked to skill slot 2. So when switching between those 2 weapons, I can't even count how many times I wanted to "charge" my foe but hit the wrong button.

    Let me decide which skill slot to tie my skills to. I don't understand this arbitrary rigidity. If I want to pout a utility skill in slot 1, why not let me?

    3. I wonder how many GW2 players switch to a weapon just for one skill? For example, on my warrior I switch from my longbow to my warhorn just for the 15 second speed buff. 10 seconds later, switch again, hit 4, rinse and repeat. What an awful workaround mechanic instead of implementing a real speed buff solution.

    4. Even if you limit the number of combat skills, why the heck can't I have some out-of-combat toolbar slots for foods, etc.? Again, just an arbitrary choice that makes us press extra buttons all day long for no good reason.

    So, in theory, one could some up with a decent implementation of limited skill bars, but in reality I haven't seen one I really like.

    I tend to like games like WoW, Rift and EQ 2. While there is the reality that I use maybe 5 or 8 skills 99% of the time on any given characters, these games GIVE ME THE CHOICE.

    Bottom Line: I'm the player/customer, give ME the choice to do what I want.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau

    Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

    and the train keeps on a rollin.

    ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

    Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

    Your argument breaks down to this.

    I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

    Examples,

    Fact: Less is not more.

    Less does not give more options than more.

    Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

    More, is more.

    To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

    You, like things simple.

    I don't, I like complexity and depth.

    I really think you're missing the point...

    Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

     

    Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

    Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

     

    Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,373
    Originally posted by Chrisbox
    Originally posted by Aeonblades

    Limited skill bars are destroying what little complexity this genre once had. Sorry, but even though I'm older doesn't mean I have trouble using a keyboard. Any game with limited skill bars is a shadow of what it could be, even the two I'm currently playing now.

     

    It means less choices and a dumbed down interface/genre in my opinion, and that's not likely to change.

    +1

    +1 - There might be a lot of valid arguments in favor of limited skill slots, I don't care, I like having almost an unlimited number of them, at least enough to slot every useful skill in my kit.

    Currently playing ArcheAge and just opened my 4th skill bar and I think I'll make it to level 50 with 4 or 5 open slots to spare.

    Nothing I hate more than being in a fight and knowing there is a perfect skill or skill combo to use if only I had been lucky or smart enough to slot it in advance.  Would much rather have all of them on the board and know that when I need it, I just have to press it.

     

     

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    That's not very relevant either. In the game with more abilities to be used you can still only use one at a time.

    It's a choice of which one of the 10 plus vs which one of the 7 plus. Only the seven gives me less ability.

    Neither one necessarily makes for more depth.

    And the other was relevant because it does people wanted more choice than 8 hotbuttons so they added many more. Even then casters had 8 hot buttons and 8 spell icons. People will say but they didn't have the Melee skills which is true but then melee only had a few skills as well. Auto kick stab bash mend
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    At Kyleran n. Exactly. The fun and challenge is in knowing what to use and when. Not having the ability eliminated that imo.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau

    Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

    and the train keeps on a rollin.

    ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

    Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

    Your argument breaks down to this.

    I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

    Examples,

    Fact: Less is not more.

    Less does not give more options than more.

    Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

    More, is more.

    To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

    You, like things simple.

    I don't, I like complexity and depth.

    I really think you're missing the point...

    Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

    Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

    Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

     

    Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

    Agreed. It adds preparedness and prediction to the equation. When you have to choose a limited set from a larger pool there is now the consideration of what the opponent will have and what skills to choose to counter or mitigate that. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • xAPOCxxAPOCx Member UncommonPosts: 869
    I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Limited skill bars is just that, limited. I could not imagine how classes like my necro or my BM would have played in Vanguard IF they had limited skills. I had so much fun with those classes and it has allot to do with the skills and how they worked in that world. Limiting skill bars is not the answer.

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by xAPOCx
    I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Limited skill bars is just that, limited. I could not imagine how classes like my necro or my BM would have played in Vanguard IF they had limited skills. I had so much fun with those classes and it has allot to do with the skills and how they worked in that world. Limiting skill bars is not the answer.

    Game mechanics aren't plug-n-play. What works well in one game may be horrible in another. MOBAs are a great genre to look at in regard to limited sets. Part of the complexity is having a group composition that complements each other's attack/defense type and provides sufficient counter for what the other team plans to bring down the line of both archetypes and damage type. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by xAPOCx I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Limited skill bars is just that, limited. I could not imagine how classes like my necro or my BM would have played in Vanguard IF they had limited skills. I had so much fun with those classes and it has allot to do with the skills and how they worked in that world. Limiting skill bars is not the answer.
    Game mechanics aren't plug-n-play. What works well in one game may be horrible in another. MOBAs are a great genre to look at in regard to limited sets. Part of the complexity is having a group composition that complements each other's attack/defense type and provides sufficient counter for what the other team plans to bring down the line of both archetypes and damage type. 

    Agreed. Its all about what works with with they type of combat you are going for.

    Unlimited vs limited skills doesn't correlate to simple vs complex games. There are numerous examples of every type of combat both working and not working.

    I think its fair to acknowledge that at least.

  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 618

    Let's see, what's the real difference between one skill with a 2 second cast and  a no cooldown that does ~500 damage being cast 6 times, and six skills with a 2 second cast each and a 12 second cooldown each and ~ 500 damage each being cast once each in sequence?

    Both ways you get about ~250 dps, except with the second version, you need to take up six buttons unless you can bind them to macros.

    Haven't you noticed that games, Rift included, that have a lot of these different attack skills/spells that you end up having to use are all pretty much the same? Sure, they have different names, and sometimes some different graphics, and the damage is slightly different, but they still boil down to very minor variations of the exact same thing.

    Why have so many duplicates except to be able to make it LOOK like there's more there than there actually is.

    After all, if one guy has a bushel of oranges that weights 25 lbs, and another guys has 25 lbs of oranges that would fill a bushel, why argue over it. Unless of course the guy with the bushel gets to use the bushel basket, and the guy with the 25 lbs has to try and fit them in his pockets or whatever because he doesn't get a basket...

     

    It boils down to multiple skills/buttons for the same character that do significantly the same thing are a waste of resources.

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198

    I think what developers are missing out with limited skill bars are non-combat abilities.  They also need to grant a ton of abilities.  I don't like one character does it all with a button push.  Pick your path.  If you want to change it then stick with the new one or make an alt.  

     

    I would perfer 10 combat abilities active and unlimited utility spells able to be up.  

  • JOverlordJOverlord Member Posts: 132
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau

    Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

    and the train keeps on a rollin.

    ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

    Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

    Your argument breaks down to this.

    I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

    Examples,

    Fact: Less is not more.

    Less does not give more options than more.

    Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

    More, is more.

    To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

    You, like things simple.

    I don't, I like complexity and depth.

    I really think you're missing the point...

    Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

     

    Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

    Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

     

    Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

    Thats not the argument though. The argument is using 10 players out of 50 players, with the ability to use all 50 players or using 4 out of 50. The team that can use 10 players will have all of the bases covered, the team with 4 will not be able to have people in the outfield, wont have a catcher, etc. The team is now gimped.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by barasawa

    Let's see, what's the real difference between one skill with a 2 second cast and  a no cooldown that does ~500 damage being cast 6 times, and six skills with a 2 second cast each and a 12 second cooldown each and ~ 500 damage each being cast once each in sequence?

    Both ways you get about ~250 dps, except with the second version, you need to take up six buttons unless you can bind them to macros.

    You'd royally suck at Guild Wars PVP. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by JOverlord
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau

    Your argument is invalidated because you are leaving out the known fact that EQ1 became the first MMORPG to have players create their own UIs to replace the games limited version which was done for the purpose of the console version. The player created UIs popularity alongside what was done by players for AC1 led to the next gen of MMORPGS, DaoC/SWG to have more toolbars and SWG even went farther with a customizable UI. It also led Blizzard to allow mods in game.

    and the train keeps on a rollin.

    ummm this seems completely irrelevant to the argument.

    Of course, because it invalidates the argument you provided. Cant have that! Much like ignoring my first post.

    Your argument breaks down to this.

    I like less options and I hate more options, because of potato, or at least may as well be potato since its all based on your personal preferences, not actual facts.

    Examples,

    Fact: Less is not more.

    Less does not give more options than more.

    Less does not provide more depth of combat than more.

    More, is more.

    To remove more, for less is to make things simpler.

    You, like things simple.

    I don't, I like complexity and depth.

    I really think you're missing the point...

    Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

     

    Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

    Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

     

    Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

    Thats not the argument though. The argument is using 10 players out of 50 players, with the ability to use all 50 players or using 4 out of 50. The team that can use 10 players will have all of the bases covered, the team with 4 will not be able to have people in the outfield, wont have a catcher, etc. The team is now gimped.

    This makes no sense as an analogy.  If a game has a limited skill bar EVERY player in the game has the same limited skill bar (roughly).  It's not like one player gets to use 10 skills, and another gets to use 50 (assuming both are at max level).

    Your analogy states that one team has 4 players (skills) and the other has 10 players (skills).  That is not how limited skill bar games are designed.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

    I think what developers are missing out with limited skill bars are non-combat abilities.  They also need to grant a ton of abilities.  I don't like one character does it all with a button push.  Pick your path.  If you want to change it then stick with the new one or make an alt.  

     

    I would perfer 10 combat abilities active and unlimited utility spells able to be up.  

    Yep, I agree with this.  Provided that the utilities don't have combat use like blink or defense things.  Abilities like recall or flavor abilities would be fine though.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • AzrileAzrile Member Posts: 2,582

    I get the whole ´set up your team wisely´  part of it.

    But gameplay wise... you are still talking about killing thousands of mobs, using exactly the same 3-4 skills over and over again...

    Sure, as a raid leader it makes it more interesting if everyone can only have 4 skills and YOU get to choose what skills everyone brings.  But for those players??   1232324231    for 30 hours a week?

    and again, the less skills you have, the less thinking you need to do before pushing those spells.    MMORPGs, by their very nature involve killing a lot of mobs..  if you only have a few skills, then every mob is going to be killed exactly the same way.

    Play DDO online, and play Diablo3.... both are great games, but DDO involves much more interesting combat and much more strategy because you have dozens of useful abilities that become less or more important depending on what you are fighting.

    Again, if you like smashing the 1 key repeatedly and calling that a challenge, more power to you.  But it is boring and mindless gameplay.

  • TbauTbau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 401
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I really think you're missing the point...

    Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

     

    Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

    Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

     

    Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

    Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

     

    Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

    Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

     

    Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Azrile

    I get the whole ´set up your team wisely´  part of it.

    But gameplay wise... you are still talking about killing thousands of mobs, using exactly the same 3-4 skills over and over again...

    Sure, as a raid leader it makes it more interesting if everyone can only have 4 skills and YOU get to choose what skills everyone brings.  But for those players??   1232324231    for 30 hours a week?

    and again, the less skills you have, the less thinking you need to do before pushing those spells.    MMORPGs, by their very nature involve killing a lot of mobs..  if you only have a few skills, then every mob is going to be killed exactly the same way.

    Play DDO online, and play Diablo3.... both are great games, but DDO involves much more interesting combat and much more strategy because you have dozens of useful abilities that become less or more important depending on what you are fighting.

    Again, if you like smashing the 1 key repeatedly and calling that a challenge, more power to you.  But it is boring and mindless gameplay.

    Play a MOBA, then tell me if you are doing the same 3-4 skills on rotation ;).

    I do think that for an MMORPG though, 3-4 skills are too few.  I think that 8-12 is a good number.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Tbau
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I really think you're missing the point...

    Let's try this, imagine these scenarios:

     

    Scenario 1:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 7 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

    Scenario 2:  you are a team captain, you have to pick 4 players for your team and there are 7 players to choose from.

     

    Which of these scenarios contains the more complex and interesting decision?  Anyone should know it's the second scenario.  Picking 7 players from a pool of 7 isn't a decision at all...but picking 4 definitely is.  Same logic with limited skill bar.

    Your example does not match the actual points of the discussion.

     

    Scenario 1: you are a team captain, you have a team of 53 players consisting of an offensive unit, a defensive unit, a special teams unit with the remaining as backup players incase of injury or super special situations. This is American FOOTBALL.

    Scenario 2: you have Tom, Ted, Ned, Ben and Jerry. Have fun playing tag.

     

    Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

    I can so confidently that I definitely do not get it...if "it" is whatever it is you are trying to convey with your posts, and I don't think I ever will lol ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • TbauTbau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 401
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Tbau

    Get it yet? Doubt it because you are pushing personal opinions as facts instead of just as your personal preference. Your preference does not trump universal truths.

    I can so confidently that I definitely do not get it...if "it" is whatever it is you are trying to convey with your posts, and I don't think I ever will lol ;).

    Once again I am one step ahead of you.

    Oh wait, I forgot that you mentioned earlier that MOBA combat is superior to MMORPG combat which explains everything. 

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