In all seriousness, there is nothing P2W in Wildstar.
All this offers is a break to those who heavily support the game, as I can tell you now I doubt I would ever be able to play enough to earn enough gold for a CREDD.
What you are failing to understand is that the GOLD used in these TRANSACTIONS was acquired IN - GAME. It isn't like in GW2 where you trade GEMS, which is purchased with real money, then converted to GOLD.
The people spending THEIR GOLD, which was earned IN GAME is then recycled through the economy. It is different if people can straight out buy currency from thin air, but this is not the case.
All gold exchanged in game is brought into the economy in the game, whether it was earned off a mob, auctions, quests, etc...it was created by the game.
I hope this makes sense for you.
Maybe not atm but as we all know Ncsoft is more favo towards F2P model and how say that the wont add in future thing is the cash shop no one off us here can say that the wont for if Ncsoft don't see any profit the may as well pull the plug and make F2P and start add pay to win item even if it is carbine that made the game it is still Ncsoft that call all shoot we all know what Ncsoft did with Tabula Rasa the force Destination Games to pull the plug on that game for it did not make enough money and have not enough player Ncsoft did not even gave the game chance.
CREDD isn't P2W. Anyone thinking so doesn't fully understand what P2W is.
P2W is a cash shop where the game sells items that are stronger than items a player can normally get in game, or that are stronger than any of the items in game for that level. CREDD does neither, it simply gives you in game currency, which allows a player to buy stronger items IN GAME. In other words, any and all items bought via CREDD, are available in game.
Another point I'll make, a player that gets gear via a raiding guild or a high level friend also gets extremely good gear this way. Is this P2W? I think not, it's part of playing an MMO.
I don't think its very pay-to-win because in this case the money was actually created in the game and didn't just magically enter the game world through an in-game shop. So, since actual in-game work was done for the money, I don't think it has a tremendous impact.
Maybe it is slightly pay-to-win though. But it isn't that big of a deal in the end.
For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
This always makes me laugh. I would rather the company who makes the game make more profit to invest back in its business than it go to gold farmers. Let's face it people will always buy gold on all mmos that farmers exist on so this makes buy to win on every game I ever played.
Buying gold is only pay to win if you can buy top end game gear and this is something that can't be done. Having gold in a game doesn't give you skill which this game does require. This is just a over reaction of a typical hater just trying to troll everyone.
I think you touched the holy grail of internet argument, which is the argument on definition.
A better question is how important gold is in wildstar. If gold is really important in wildstar, you can buy more advantage, if gold isn't really important, most people probably dont' even care.
Why do you care is my question. You said you're not going to buy it or play it, so why start this thread for any other reason than to try to create bad feelings for a game most of us enjoy. Is this not the definition of trolling?
Please, enlighten me then but wait I think you'll say "pay to win" is when the player gains significant advantage against another through buying more powerful items. If that's the case I disagree with you. If the game design/endgame is based around COLLECTING and using expensive RARE items for show off or simply gaining some extra feat/achievement is considered Pay to Win in my book.
That dimishes the point of collecting in first play, thus making the experience unfun, unrewarding and pointless. Also every single item that will require ingame currency to obtain basically can be obtained easily for $ and it won't be just about obtaining items it will be about a lot of other things.
For instance I can easily bring most players I want in my guild for the right sum (which means bringing players from other guilds as well). You'll be surprised what players are willing to do for free currency.
Pay to win refers to paying to defeat something that requires SKILL. Paying to defeat time sync's such as COLLECTING is not defeating any skill. It's always the same, ppl with copious amounts of time to sync hate others being able to use thier money to short circuit them. I bet you complain about the guy that pays a cleaner to clean his house while he gets a golf lesson and gets "ahead" of you. Why do you think sync'ing all your time away is some type of skillfull achievement? It's probably because it's your only option.
The only "point" of collecting to to sync subs out of ppl.
Ok, first of all, you're absolutely clueless on P2W. You keep saying "in my opinion" like you simply can't be wrong if you say that. It's like people who think that by saying "No offense, but..." you can't take offense to whatever follows. You know, like "No offense, but you're an idiot." Sorry, though, you're wrong!
I think it's quite clear at this point that P2W is the ability to purchase items in-game (through cash shops) which are NOT available to regular players. There's a BIG difference between that and what you're talking about. Buying power is completely different. You know what, I could tell people in any game that if they come and join my guild I'll send them $1000 per month through PayPal and I could quite easily get the best guild in the game. Within days. Hoewver, that doesn't guarantee anything, the playing field is still level. Everyone in the game has access to the exact same content with the same bonuses and the same gear, etc.
Next, you continually mention the "Economy" like it's going to somehow collapse by introducing this type of system. Sorry, but EVE Online has the identical system in place and EVE has the most complex, but thriving, economy in any game, period. In history even? Possibly. So you can't say that this is bad for the economy because you don't know.
Oh yeah, and that's the other thing, you don't know! You have no clue how the system actually plays out in the game because you're not a subscriber and you were quite adament that you'd never be a subscriber, or even a player (of F2P version of it).
Firstly, lemme just say I haven't tried/bought or intend to buy/play WildStar and now with the C.R.E.D.D sadly won't be playing if/when it goes F2P as well.
Wildstar is a themepark MMORPG where in game curreny does not play a significant role since players will obtain the loot from bosses and to upgrade it won't be as costly) BUT in a themepark MMORPG where "collecting" plays a big role and is another crucial endgame feature I'm certain ingame currency will be on high demand to craft/own rare/expensive mounts, house items and whatever else they got there for collecting.
Quoting from Massively "C.R.E.D.D. is an in-game item that adds 30 days of play time to an account. Players can purchase one for $19.99 to sell on the exchange or purchase one from another player for in-game gold. Basically, it allows you to buy more game time with in-game currency or to gain more in-game currency with your real-world dollars."
So, basically a player who chooses to spend more $ will be easily bulking up ingame currency, thus the economy won't be existant. The saddest part is that NCsoft, CCP (with their plex system, which I think is same) believe that this will benefit them since they will encourage the "whales" players who willing to spend more $ in their cash shop to earn as much ingame currency as they please will be a good move.
Good thing I dodged WildStar and now I'm just more happy with my decision. As time goes by at least if companies employ these "tactics" I would yet to see them SHOW they actually care others than themself and allow its customers/players a chance for them too to SELL their currency/items for $ in a safe environment.
This community is welcome to share their opinion on this matter (especially if they disagree).
CREDD in no way will make the economy non "existant" as you put it. Same as how PLEX did not make the EVE Online economy non-existent. I'm not sure you understand what CREDD is or how it works.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
Ok, first of all, you're absolutely clueless on P2W. You keep saying "in my opinion" like you simply can't be wrong if you say that. It's like people who think that by saying "No offense, but..." you can't take offense to whatever follows. You know, like "No offense, but you're an idiot." Sorry, though, you're wrong!
I think it's quite clear at this point that P2W is the ability to purchase items in-game (through cash shops) which are NOT available to regular players. There's a BIG difference between that and what you're talking about. Buying power is completely different. You know what, I could tell people in any game that if they come and join my guild I'll send them $1000 per month through PayPal and I could quite easily get the best guild in the game. Within days. Hoewver, that doesn't guarantee anything, the playing field is still level. Everyone in the game has access to the exact same content with the same bonuses and the same gear, etc.
Next, you continually mention the "Economy" like it's going to somehow collapse by introducing this type of system. Sorry, but EVE Online has the identical system in place and EVE has the most complex, but thriving, economy in any game, period. In history even? Possibly. So you can't say that this is bad for the economy because you don't know.
Oh yeah, and that's the other thing, you don't know! You have no clue how the system actually plays out in the game because you're not a subscriber and you were quite adament that you'd never be a subscriber, or even a player (of F2P version of it).
I think the confusion about pay-to-win stems from the gray area of things which can be earned in a game without participating in RMT. In many free-to-play games, players can purchase items with real money, or slowly earn currency to purchase those items. For some, the definition of pay-to-win would exclude those items because they can be earned with time, while for others, the advantage is given to those who pay.
Where do we draw the line, then? I think there should be consideration for the value of whatever is being purchased both in terms of real money and the time it takes to earn it otherwise. If the difference is too great, and the advantage for the paying player is too large, a game is declared pay-to-win. If it only takes a reasonable effort for the value of the reward to earn the item without spending real money, then the game probably isn't pay-to-win. It is just too hard to define what is a modest effort since the issue is so subjective for many.
In the case of WIldStar, paying real money only earns a person in-game currency. It doesn't add currency to the economy, so in that sense, it is somewhat fair. When the consideration is taken that third-parties (a.k.a. gold farmers) often sell the same currency in the game, then it becomes difficult to classify WildStar as pay-to-win. If being able to purchase currency which is already in the economy makes WildStar pay-to-win, then every MMO would be classified as pay-to-win.
For example money isn't "that" important in wow, since all the best item drop from raids.
But money is far more important in GW2, eventhough GW2 have no stats progression. But money is more important since you can buy "everything" with money.
And money is even more important when you can buy power in games like Atlantica Online.
You must be pretty new around here...
People in WoW take you to ANY instance and let you get ANY PVP TITLE with the right amount of gold...
Ok, first of all, you're absolutely clueless on P2W. You keep saying "in my opinion" like you simply can't be wrong if you say that. It's like people who think that by saying "No offense, but..." you can't take offense to whatever follows. You know, like "No offense, but you're an idiot." Sorry, though, you're wrong!
I think it's quite clear at this point that P2W is the ability to purchase items in-game (through cash shops) which are NOT available to regular players. There's a BIG difference between that and what you're talking about. Buying power is completely different. You know what, I could tell people in any game that if they come and join my guild I'll send them $1000 per month through PayPal and I could quite easily get the best guild in the game. Within days. Hoewver, that doesn't guarantee anything, the playing field is still level. Everyone in the game has access to the exact same content with the same bonuses and the same gear, etc.
Next, you continually mention the "Economy" like it's going to somehow collapse by introducing this type of system. Sorry, but EVE Online has the identical system in place and EVE has the most complex, but thriving, economy in any game, period. In history even? Possibly. So you can't say that this is bad for the economy because you don't know.
Oh yeah, and that's the other thing, you don't know! You have no clue how the system actually plays out in the game because you're not a subscriber and you were quite adament that you'd never be a subscriber, or even a player (of F2P version of it).
Yeah, that is about the same as I feel too. Far too many people calls any game with an itemshop of any kind pay2win and that just isn't right. There are however some F2P game where you more or less must spend money to be able to do anything and the more money you spend the better you become and those games are indeed pay2win.
Originally posted by bcbullyBuying gold or converting cash to gold is no longer pay to win, and PC games sell more physical copies than digital downloads.mmorpg.com community circa June 2014
Ok, first of all, you're absolutely clueless on P2W. You keep saying "in my opinion" like you simply can't be wrong if you say that. It's like people who think that by saying "No offense, but..." you can't take offense to whatever follows. You know, like "No offense, but you're an idiot." Sorry, though, you're wrong!
I think it's quite clear at this point that P2W is the ability to purchase items in-game (through cash shops) which are NOT available to regular players. There's a BIG difference between that and what you're talking about. Buying power is completely different. You know what, I could tell people in any game that if they come and join my guild I'll send them $1000 per month through PayPal and I could quite easily get the best guild in the game. Within days. Hoewver, that doesn't guarantee anything, the playing field is still level. Everyone in the game has access to the exact same content with the same bonuses and the same gear, etc.
Next, you continually mention the "Economy" like it's going to somehow collapse by introducing this type of system. Sorry, but EVE Online has the identical system in place and EVE has the most complex, but thriving, economy in any game, period. In history even? Possibly. So you can't say that this is bad for the economy because you don't know.
Oh yeah, and that's the other thing, you don't know! You have no clue how the system actually plays out in the game because you're not a subscriber and you were quite adament that you'd never be a subscriber, or even a player (of F2P version of it).
I think the confusion about pay-to-win stems from the gray area of things which can be earned in a game without participating in RMT. In many free-to-play games, players can purchase items with real money, or slowly earn currency to purchase those items. For some, the definition of pay-to-win would exclude those items because they can be earned with time, while for others, the advantage is given to those who pay.
Where do we draw the line, then? I think there should be consideration for the value of whatever is being purchased both in terms of real money and the time it takes to earn it otherwise. If the difference is too great, and the advantage for the paying player is too large, a game is declared pay-to-win. If it only takes a reasonable effort for the value of the reward to earn the item without spending real money, then the game probably isn't pay-to-win. It is just too hard to define what is a modest effort since the issue is so subjective for many.
In the case of WIldStar, paying real money only earns a person in-game currency. It doesn't add currency to the economy, so in that sense, it is somewhat fair. When the consideration is taken that third-parties (a.k.a. gold farmers) often sell the same currency in the game, then it becomes difficult to classify WildStar as pay-to-win. If being able to purchase currency which is already in the economy makes WildStar pay-to-win, then every MMO would be classified as pay-to-win.
Yeah, I think we're on the same page here. My point is, let's not dilute the meaning of P2W. There are definitely games out there where you cannot compete at the highest level without investing money into the game. That's P2W. Unfortunately, people like the OP continually challenge that notion and continually expand the scope of what P2W means, which actually trivializes the meaning.
You're right, if we accept the OPs classification then, essentially, every MMO is P2W, since I can easily spend real money outside the game to acquire in-game currency, items, etc. without working for them. However, in true P2W games, this isn't possible. The "Superior" items are found only in the cash shop and must be purchased through the cash shop (cannot be found in-game)
You're right, if we accept the OPs classification then, essentially, every MMO is P2W, since I can easily spend real money outside the game to acquire in-game currency, items, etc. without working for them. However, in true P2W games, this isn't possible. The "Superior" items are found only in the cash shop and must be purchased through the cash shop (cannot be found in-game)
The OP even refers to CCP and Plex and proving thereby that he has no real idea what he is talking about.
In EvE the system is in essence paid work. People with more money than time buy plex and sell them to people with more time than money. The difference to the typical fantasy MMO though is that there are no bound items and that everything you carry with you in space is either destroyed or drops in case of your untimely death.
So whatever you buy for your shiny Plex will sooner or later end up in some other guys hands or be lost forever. Or you decide to just fit them to a ship and never fly it. In which case the "P2W" also loses some meaning.
In games without item loss, full loot pvp mechanics etc. the case is a bit different. Players will eventually max out on all worthwhile (for them!) things given enough time. When they want to cut short they can buy some acceleration via converted real money, but everything they might buy is a temporary advantage at best. And usually even not that because people buying their top gear usually suck regardless of what they are wearing (excemptions may prove the rule).
As you said: As long as it i s not at the same time cash shop exclusive and decidedly better than ingame items it is not "pay to win" but rather "temporary fix for insufficient e-peen".
Looks like the majority realize that W* isn't p2W. Still funny that a few people believe a game without a cash shop is now p2w. So paying for a subscription is winning? Well I guess it depends on what game you are subscribed too.
Comments
Maybe not atm but as we all know Ncsoft is more favo towards F2P model and how say that the wont add in future thing is the cash shop no one off us here can say that the wont for if Ncsoft don't see any profit the may as well pull the plug and make F2P and start add pay to win item even if it is carbine that made the game it is still Ncsoft that call all shoot we all know what Ncsoft did with Tabula Rasa the force Destination Games to pull the plug on that game for it did not make enough money and have not enough player Ncsoft did not even gave the game chance.
CREDD isn't P2W. Anyone thinking so doesn't fully understand what P2W is.
P2W is a cash shop where the game sells items that are stronger than items a player can normally get in game, or that are stronger than any of the items in game for that level. CREDD does neither, it simply gives you in game currency, which allows a player to buy stronger items IN GAME. In other words, any and all items bought via CREDD, are available in game.
Another point I'll make, a player that gets gear via a raiding guild or a high level friend also gets extremely good gear this way. Is this P2W? I think not, it's part of playing an MMO.
Are you serious? Complete baiting thread. You're just asking to start a flame war. Reported.
I don't think its very pay-to-win because in this case the money was actually created in the game and didn't just magically enter the game world through an in-game shop. So, since actual in-game work was done for the money, I don't think it has a tremendous impact.
Maybe it is slightly pay-to-win though. But it isn't that big of a deal in the end.
The Weekly Wizardry blog
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-keep-using-that-word-i-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Let's face it people will always buy gold on all mmos that farmers exist on so this makes buy to win on every game I ever played.
Buying gold is only pay to win if you can buy top end game gear and this is something that can't be done.
Having gold in a game doesn't give you skill which this game does require.
This is just a over reaction of a typical hater just trying to troll everyone.
I feel it's pay to win but every game is pay to win.
Most just require you to pay with your time instead of money.
I think you touched the holy grail of internet argument, which is the argument on definition.
A better question is how important gold is in wildstar. If gold is really important in wildstar, you can buy more advantage, if gold isn't really important, most people probably dont' even care.
Pay to win refers to paying to defeat something that requires SKILL. Paying to defeat time sync's such as COLLECTING is not defeating any skill. It's always the same, ppl with copious amounts of time to sync hate others being able to use thier money to short circuit them. I bet you complain about the guy that pays a cleaner to clean his house while he gets a golf lesson and gets "ahead" of you. Why do you think sync'ing all your time away is some type of skillfull achievement? It's probably because it's your only option.
The only "point" of collecting to to sync subs out of ppl.
Ok, first of all, you're absolutely clueless on P2W. You keep saying "in my opinion" like you simply can't be wrong if you say that. It's like people who think that by saying "No offense, but..." you can't take offense to whatever follows. You know, like "No offense, but you're an idiot." Sorry, though, you're wrong!
I think it's quite clear at this point that P2W is the ability to purchase items in-game (through cash shops) which are NOT available to regular players. There's a BIG difference between that and what you're talking about. Buying power is completely different. You know what, I could tell people in any game that if they come and join my guild I'll send them $1000 per month through PayPal and I could quite easily get the best guild in the game. Within days. Hoewver, that doesn't guarantee anything, the playing field is still level. Everyone in the game has access to the exact same content with the same bonuses and the same gear, etc.
Next, you continually mention the "Economy" like it's going to somehow collapse by introducing this type of system. Sorry, but EVE Online has the identical system in place and EVE has the most complex, but thriving, economy in any game, period. In history even? Possibly. So you can't say that this is bad for the economy because you don't know.
Oh yeah, and that's the other thing, you don't know! You have no clue how the system actually plays out in the game because you're not a subscriber and you were quite adament that you'd never be a subscriber, or even a player (of F2P version of it).
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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CREDD in no way will make the economy non "existant" as you put it. Same as how PLEX did not make the EVE Online economy non-existent. I'm not sure you understand what CREDD is or how it works.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
Nah,it's not pay to win.
It's Pay to win + sub.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
I think the confusion about pay-to-win stems from the gray area of things which can be earned in a game without participating in RMT. In many free-to-play games, players can purchase items with real money, or slowly earn currency to purchase those items. For some, the definition of pay-to-win would exclude those items because they can be earned with time, while for others, the advantage is given to those who pay.
Where do we draw the line, then? I think there should be consideration for the value of whatever is being purchased both in terms of real money and the time it takes to earn it otherwise. If the difference is too great, and the advantage for the paying player is too large, a game is declared pay-to-win. If it only takes a reasonable effort for the value of the reward to earn the item without spending real money, then the game probably isn't pay-to-win. It is just too hard to define what is a modest effort since the issue is so subjective for many.
In the case of WIldStar, paying real money only earns a person in-game currency. It doesn't add currency to the economy, so in that sense, it is somewhat fair. When the consideration is taken that third-parties (a.k.a. gold farmers) often sell the same currency in the game, then it becomes difficult to classify WildStar as pay-to-win. If being able to purchase currency which is already in the economy makes WildStar pay-to-win, then every MMO would be classified as pay-to-win.
You must be pretty new around here...
People in WoW take you to ANY instance and let you get ANY PVP TITLE with the right amount of gold...
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
Yeah, that is about the same as I feel too. Far too many people calls any game with an itemshop of any kind pay2win and that just isn't right. There are however some F2P game where you more or less must spend money to be able to do anything and the more money you spend the better you become and those games are indeed pay2win.
Wildstar isn't one of those games.
tried to multi-quote nvm
Yeah, I think we're on the same page here. My point is, let's not dilute the meaning of P2W. There are definitely games out there where you cannot compete at the highest level without investing money into the game. That's P2W. Unfortunately, people like the OP continually challenge that notion and continually expand the scope of what P2W means, which actually trivializes the meaning.
You're right, if we accept the OPs classification then, essentially, every MMO is P2W, since I can easily spend real money outside the game to acquire in-game currency, items, etc. without working for them. However, in true P2W games, this isn't possible. The "Superior" items are found only in the cash shop and must be purchased through the cash shop (cannot be found in-game)
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The OP even refers to CCP and Plex and proving thereby that he has no real idea what he is talking about.
In EvE the system is in essence paid work. People with more money than time buy plex and sell them to people with more time than money. The difference to the typical fantasy MMO though is that there are no bound items and that everything you carry with you in space is either destroyed or drops in case of your untimely death.
So whatever you buy for your shiny Plex will sooner or later end up in some other guys hands or be lost forever. Or you decide to just fit them to a ship and never fly it. In which case the "P2W" also loses some meaning.
In games without item loss, full loot pvp mechanics etc. the case is a bit different. Players will eventually max out on all worthwhile (for them!) things given enough time. When they want to cut short they can buy some acceleration via converted real money, but everything they might buy is a temporary advantage at best. And usually even not that because people buying their top gear usually suck regardless of what they are wearing (excemptions may prove the rule).
As you said: As long as it i s not at the same time cash shop exclusive and decidedly better than ingame items it is not "pay to win" but rather "temporary fix for insufficient e-peen".
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor