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PvP RvR and guilds

arcundoarcundo OSLOPosts: 49Member Uncommon

First of all homepage says 500 in PvP. I am not sure exactly what is meant by that, but if it is 500 in sieging isnt that a a few to many?

To mention a few examples I think AoC during its development started out with 200 (if I remember correct) and later that was changed to 1 or or 2 raids of 24 on each side, which seemed to work very well.  (One got the feeling of a big battle and at the same time felt that each player had an impact on the outcome, and not only getting zerged.)

TESO has a lot on each side and it is hard to get a feeling that each contributes, and you get downed very quickly.

 

RvR versus GvG.

Having now played both those aforementioned games I am leaning towards GvG as a better model than RvR. Possibly in CU RvR is the best way to go about it, but from what I have seen in TESO, RvR has some weknesses.  For instance groups just roaming around in PvP zones attacking Keeps and not defending them because the guilds feel that they don't own them and have not used resources on buidling it etc.  Also the guild effort is somewhat missing from RvR games. Anyway I think AoC works better than TESO when it comes to this. How can CU make guilds stronger and incorporate things to do (crafting etc.) for the guild effort?  

 

Resources and the rts element in CU

I have not found anything about the fight over resouces in CU, but can guilds expect auto influx of materials which again can be used to craft gear, build/upgrade Keeps etc by controlling areas where there are mines, lumber etc.? (think Arathi Basin in WoW if you actually would get to keep the materials your faction got from the game, or the materials from mines etc. around the Keeps in Border Kingdoms in AoC).

Comments

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    500 players fighting in an area at 30 fps is the performance target they are aiming for with the graphics engine. I agree that fights that actually involve that many players can turn into unsatisfying mindless AE spamfests where any one player has limited impact. It's way too soon to say how common that kind of mass fight will be.

    This is an RvR game. GvG fights will happen but they will be in the same open world area as the rest of RvR meaning there will always be the risk of other players adding onto your GvG fight. There are no plans for GvG instances/arenas or the likes. Unlike Zenimax who is already adding 3v3v3 arenas to TESO, I actually believe CSE will stick to the no arenas policy. So if arenas are what you prefer, then sadly this is not the game for you.

    Resources will be important but exactly how is still undefined other than the obvious facts that you will need them to create gear or buildings. There should be more information on that during the BSC Days presentations sometime in the next month or so.

     

     

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • SgtOxSgtOx San Antonio, TXPosts: 18Member Uncommon
    Unsatisfying mindless AE spamfests you say?  Here's an idea....Incorporate friendly fire!  Talk about calculating combat!  I can see all these aoe spamming key pressing peeps having a fit lol.

    image
  • Jaychi72Jaychi72 Lake Elsinore, CAPosts: 66Member Common
    Originally posted by SgtOx
    Unsatisfying mindless AE spamfests you say?  Here's an idea....Incorporate friendly fire!  Talk about calculating combat!  I can see all these aoe spamming key pressing peeps having a fit lol.

    +100

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SgtOx
    Unsatisfying mindless AE spamfests you say?  Here's an idea....Incorporate friendly fire!  Talk about calculating combat!  I can see all these aoe spamming key pressing peeps having a fit lol.

    Given the kind of people that play RvR games, I would guess friendly fire would be a solution that is worse than the problem it is trying to solve. Too much potential for griefing your own realm mates....

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • arcundoarcundo OSLOPosts: 49Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by meddyck

    500 players fighting in an area at 30 fps is the performance target they are aiming for with the graphics engine. I agree that fights that actually involve that many players can turn into unsatisfying mindless AE spamfests where any one player has limited impact. It's way too soon to say how common that kind of mass fight will be.

    This is an RvR game. GvG fights will happen but they will be in the same open world area as the rest of RvR meaning there will always be the risk of other players adding onto your GvG fight. There are no plans for GvG instances/arenas or the likes. Unlike Zenimax who is already adding 3v3v3 arenas to TESO, I actually believe CSE will stick to the no arenas policy. So if arenas are what you prefer, then sadly this is not the game for you.

    Resources will be important but exactly how is still undefined other than the obvious facts that you will need them to create gear or buildings. There should be more information on that during the BSC Days presentations sometime in the next month or so.

     

    I guess we will have to see how many will be fighting over each objective,

    So guilds will not be able to own anything? I guess the biggest problem with RvR is that noone feels ownership to to what has been taken in PvP (Battle Keep etc.) and thereby the games looses a bit of dynamics since there is only attacking from all sides and very little defending.  Also the factions becomes to big so you do not see rivalries between guilds.  The lack of Arenas is no problem as long guilds can actually build something and gain other benefits from working together as a unit within the faction.

    Yes we will probably more more about this in July.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by arcundo

    I guess we will have to see how many will be fighting over each objective,

    So guilds will not be able to own anything? I guess the biggest problem with RvR is that noone feels ownership to to what has been taken in PvP (Battle Keep etc.) and thereby the games looses a bit of dynamics since there is only attacking from all sides and very little defending.  Also the factions becomes to big so you do not see rivalries between guilds.  The lack of Arenas is no problem as long guilds can actually build something and gain other benefits from working together as a unit within the faction.

    Yes we will probably more more about this in July.

    Yes guilds will be able to own buildings (more than one at a time). We don't know yet what benefits owning a building will give.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • MMOreaverMMOreaver MunichPosts: 35Member Uncommon

    100+ players on each side might be:

    -slideshow

    -aoe mezz/stun spamfest

    -zerging

     

    This will need a lot of work to balance this somewhat..

    The GvG part should be different and will also take time.

    I fear that you get a crappy unfinished game at release and they patch for 1-2years till it´s playable ;(

  • arcundoarcundo OSLOPosts: 49Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Yes guilds will be able to own buildings (more than one at a time). We don't know yet what benefits owning a building will give.

    Cool! Looking forward to learn more about that part.

  • Velonius650Velonius650 Toronto, ONPosts: 27Member
    If it's like daoc it should have something for the zergers and something for the small scale crowd. 

    DAOC (retired): RR11 Merc
    Upcoming: CU, Wasteland 2, Eternity, Planescape

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Velonius650
    If it's like daoc it should have something for the zergers and something for the small scale crowd. 

    Mark Jacobs has mentioned a number of times that he wants CU to support a variety of play styles and not just be about zerging and sieging like some other RvR games.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    GvG = HECK NO !

    My vision for the game is DAOC 2

  • GreenthinggGreenthingg Montreal, QCPosts: 23Member

    500 players in a zone is something I'd thrive for.

     

    In Warhammer, I participated in many 200+ players keep fights, and the only thing holding it back was server sided, my PC could handle it perfectly.

     

    the thing to counter zergs is combat mechanics.  Strong healing and tanking, and also, collision detection and chokepoints.  once you have those mechanics right, you can have fun zerg v zerg fights.  I remember tanking with my Black Orc blocking a keep door entrance, spamming my surviving tools and CC (I had like close to 100% block and a shit ton of toughness mitigating every damage bits and strong healing partners) doing that for 30 mins and eventually coordinating a realm push from the flank that would wipe the ennemy backline, those were the best days of that game.  Sadly, no other game ever did that correctly, other than the old DAOC.

    Recipe for success in a RvR game : 

    combat mechanics to support zerg fighting

    collision detection

    strategic map designs

    strong server side technology (GW2 did that right in the end, in the beginning it wouldnt load the ennemies right away, but they fixed it).  On client side, I wouldnt mind having to lower the graphics or having to deal with poor textures IF the game is fun to play.

     

    People hate zerg v zerg when it's not well done, when they don't have a group to run with.  Let me tell you, when you find some group of friends and play like it's meant to be played, rvR is the best PvP I've ever played.  Nothing like GW2 and ESO siege v siege BS.

  • arcundoarcundo OSLOPosts: 49Member Uncommon

    Since it is based around crafting and PvP (will it be leveling btw?) PvP needs to have have fight over objectives (preferably resources ;) ) at least for xp , faction points or whatever rewards it will be .  

    Giving out to much xp etc. for defeating other players solo or in random groups will prob. not be enough to keep up player interest and to really be a MMORPG.

    So hopefully small groups can do some fighting over objectives that means something.  Then again from what I have seen in TESO fighting over smaller resources  in TESO isnt really a option. You would probably stand alot idle waiting at your resource while 98% of the other players fights over a Keep. And the influx of xp or materials for crafting is minimal.

     

    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by Velonius650
    If it's like daoc it should have something for the zergers and something for the small scale crowd. 

    Mark Jacobs has mentioned a number of times that he wants CU to support a variety of play styles and not just be about zerging and sieging like some other RvR games.

     

     

  • arcundoarcundo OSLOPosts: 49Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Shadanwolf

    GvG = HECK NO !

    My vision for the game is DAOC 2

    Why not? Don't you think that RvR games lack something? Like guild rivalry, ownership of conquered objectives, developing good teamwork etc. RvR is to just to big and anonymous.

    Ofc. I do understand that CU is way beyound the development decision of wether to go RvR or GvG.  But it would be nice if they take into consideration the downsides to RvR.

    Over to the DAOC2 vision. From what I understand DAOC did something right when it comes to guilds, that TESO didnt do. Something about some rivalry and that you played more with your guild than in TESO. Can someone please explain what that was? (didnt play the game) 

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,496Member Uncommon

    Going beyond 200 players engaging in PvP in one small area - any server is going to be stressed.

    DAoC, WAR, ESO all perform very well with 200ish number - but doubling that and adding another 100 - that's hard without cratering the servers.

    Planetside can do it - but the number of player/attack variations is small - so it's a lot less server overhead. Your typical fantasy MMO with lots of skills for each player is exponentially more difficult to pull off in mass PvP.

    Does CU have a really limited skill set per player in PvP?

     

     

     

  • arcundoarcundo OSLOPosts: 49Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Greenthingg

    500 players in a zone is something I'd thrive for.

    [snip]

    the thing to counter zergs is combat mechanics.  Strong healing and tanking, and also, collision detection and chokepoints.  once you have those mechanics right, you can have fun zerg v zerg fights.  I remember tanking with my Black Orc blocking a keep door entrance, spamming my surviving tools and CC (I had like close to 100% block and a shit ton of toughness mitigating every damage bits and strong healing partners) doing that for 30 mins and eventually coordinating a realm push from the flank that would wipe the ennemy backline, those were the best days of that game.  Sadly, no other game ever did that correctly, other than the old DAOC.

     

    AoC did(?) (although not that many in same siege but possibly in zone).

    So you are saying it isnt working that well in TESO because it lacks collition detection (in PvP ) then?

    Also you are saying that RvR is not fun when you don't have a group to run with (which is true). It is neither guaranteed to be fun with a group. To me it seems that RvR is more pug group based than GvG MMO(s), probably because the guild thing is toned down in RvR games.

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