I agree with a couple above posters, you have many flaws in your arguments/statements and I think the worst part is the sheer number of people agreeing with these points. Of course if you deal in absolutes, you can cast away anything in your own mind as terrible i.e. if any game involves money its pay to win no matter how you slice it -- GW2 comment.
Then you make an exception for EVE Online because its an obvious hole in your way of thinking in terms of pay to win.
You have no gray area and only deal in terms of black and white and polarizing a topic doesn't necessarily mean this discussion gets any more meaningful (especially one that's beat to death).
You never even fully explain why something is always pay to win, what if the only thing you can buy are cosmetic changes to every piece of armor, is that pay to win? Mounts? Pay to win? What exactly is winning even in an MMO? The fact you hit max level, got that rare piece of loot or perhaps the fact you managed to successful enjoy the last 3 hours of your time with friends?
I think this is the root of the issue with people and MMO's, most approach it the wrong way, everyone just focuses on the loot aka carrot on the stick rather than emphasize the experience you are having with a group of people. MMO's currently are being treated as single player games with very human AI and not as a socializing medium. I see many people enter and leave MMO's due to the same reasons like its boring, I can't find "static/steady raid groups" etc., you feel too obligated to it etc., all reasons that ignored the biggest advantage an MMO can provide over any other genre: socializing and bringing people together.
So ultimately, given there's attempts made to try to keep down illegal RMT, gold selling etc. or the existence of company RMT etc., who really cares? Is gold selling nerfing my ability to talk to my guildmates? Is it making it harder to grouping with others? Is it ruining my social experience overall? Most likely its no and if it is, use the ignore features and help everyone by reporting.
PS if it helps you get you to improve your experience a bit more (assuming you are even playing MMO's), just pretend the RMT'ers is the MMO equivalent to a black market, they aren't supposed to exist but they do anyway and that IMO could possibly be realer than anything solely reliant on a subscription (which are fading away fast).
Perhaps its not the MMO industry that is slipping or "going down the toilet", it could possibly be your own expectations of what you think MMO's "should be" that are.
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
Originally posted by Ikonis I stopped reading when you said Eve PLEX is pay to win. Shows you know a absolutely nothing about the game.
Technically, PLEXes are pay to win. There is no way to circumvent that. But it also shows that P2W is a lot more complicated than what others would want to believe.
I used to be so glad that there were players in Eve who thought PLEX was going to buy them kills. They just learned a battleship skill so they'd buy a Mach or a Nightmare and fit it up with deadspace mods and head to low sec to "win Eve". It made our kill boards look great and kept us funded.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I think a game that makes the reward too difficult to attain already opens a demand for shortcuts aka cheating.
So any game that has long gear grinds or terrible money sinks creates a demand for some kind of short cut, exploit, cheat, to avoid that.
Another example could be people going afk in instanced pvp. They are there to collect the reward which takes too much time. Thus its not so much about the content, but the goal to then begin the content.
So maybe content should be designed in such a way that the demand for short cuts is less. I know ppl also enjoy the challenge of being patient and eventually getting their reward. However these people must put down a lot of down time on something that is actualyl temporary since gear changes with updates and not even expansions... or they are fine not being the best geared person whcih for others is a problem hence the demand to cheat to buy gold/in game currecny to buy better gear for example.
Games are not as rewarding as they should be. And making the greatest story in a mmo wont fix that, since some people will just want to get to the end game. So the longer the jounrey can also create a demand for cheating. This issue might be more minor than other issues in the game such as a terrible gear grind... but its still a valid concern to not make it feel like a waste of time.
I think this is especially true for casual players who don't have the hours to put into a game, who want to have fun instead of deadly grinding for a few gold. Maybe some developers will wake up and make a two tier game, a choice for the hard core gamers, and one for those who don't consider hard core, fun. Of course, they couldn't then participate In the same PvP.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
Yeh ... and "compromise" is relative. May be it is a much more fun game after steroid is legalizing. Not only the athletes can compete, the doctors can compete with better "super soldier serum" too.
If the rule is the same for everyone, and sanctioned by the owner of the game, there is no cheating.
MMORPG.com needs to get on to adding a +1 button of some sort so I don't have to just quote these sorts of things.
To OP and my assumed point of the post...
Paying money isn't cheating, it's capitalism. In Soviet Russia Transfers Real Monied You.
Also in Guild Wars 2.. I only ever saw mini people and stupid outfits on the cash shop. Trading gems for gold and buying something someone crafted out of the AH did seem crazy.. Because crafting and gathering components in Guild Wars 2 WAS NOT as difficult as you've made it out to be.
So you want to be lazy and have access to the top gear in a game?
I think that's your problem. Not that anyone's cheating.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
Yeh ... and "compromise" is relative. May be it is a much more fun game after steroid is legalizing. Not only the athletes can compete, the doctors can compete with better "super soldier serum" too.
If the rule is the same for everyone, and sanctioned by the owner of the game, there is no cheating.
Some things are black and white to me. I think a better analogy is comparing it to something like smoking. Smoking is legal, but you know it's bad for your health. To me RMT is like smoking. It doesn't destroy your health, but it could destroy you financial situation and it's only there to milk people of their money and prey on people in bad situations. To me it's black and white bad. People can try to justify by saying that everyone should be able to play any game no matter how much time they have if they have money. Their welcome to their opinion.
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
Interesting observation. Totally off base IMO, and overlooks so many factors that would go into a person's decision to engage in RMT. Not the least being trying to level the playing field between those who have more time to spend playing a game (always an acceptable advantage it seems) and those who don't.
Doesn't matter if you agree with their perception of the situation, to them the money needs to be spent to save time and increase their enjoyment of the game.
I've known RMT'er who have played a particular MMO for multiple years, perhaps because they have invested somewhat more heavily into the game than those who play them for "Free"
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
Interesting observation. Totally off base IMO, and overlooks so many factors that would go into a person's decision to engage in RMT. Not the least being trying to level the playing field between those who have more time to spend playing a game (always an acceptable advantage it seems) and those who don't.
Doesn't matter if you agree with their perception of the situation, to them the money needs to be spent to save time and increase their enjoyment of the game.
I've known RMT'er who have played a particular MMO for multiple years, perhaps because they have invested somewhat more heavily into the game than those who play them for "Free"
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
I believe what most people fail to admit is that people who have lots of time to play generally sacrificed something in their lives to gain that time. Perhaps they decided not to make a family and have kids. Perhaps they gave up their time to study and make more money. On the flip side the ones paying money decided that MMOs are not important to them at all. They just want to spend money no them and skip playing most of the game. In reality it is not a fair trade if we are looking at fairness, but RMT has never been about making things fair for people. It is simply about making as much money as possible off people.
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
Interesting observation. Totally off base IMO, and overlooks so many factors that would go into a person's decision to engage in RMT. Not the least being trying to level the playing field between those who have more time to spend playing a game (always an acceptable advantage it seems) and those who don't.
Doesn't matter if you agree with their perception of the situation, to them the money needs to be spent to save time and increase their enjoyment of the game.
I've known RMT'er who have played a particular MMO for multiple years, perhaps because they have invested somewhat more heavily into the game than those who play them for "Free"
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
I believe what most people fail to admit is that people who have lots of time to play generally sacrificed something in their lives to gain that time. Perhaps they decided not to make a family and have kids. Perhaps they gave up their time to study and make more money. On the flip side the ones paying money decided that MMOs are not important to them at all. They just want to spend money no them and skip playing most of the game. In reality it is not a fair trade if we are looking at fairness, but RMT has never been about making things fair for people. It is simply about making as much money as possible off people.
No, they just want to play the game in a manner that they enjoy, and if skipping certain content helps with that and they have the means (BTW, most are hardworking, and very employed) they'll go ahead and do it.
Stop looking for fair, nothing in life is fair, seeking such balance is the stuff for fairy tales and maybe organized team sports.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
Interesting observation. Totally off base IMO, and overlooks so many factors that would go into a person's decision to engage in RMT. Not the least being trying to level the playing field between those who have more time to spend playing a game (always an acceptable advantage it seems) and those who don't.
Doesn't matter if you agree with their perception of the situation, to them the money needs to be spent to save time and increase their enjoyment of the game.
I've known RMT'er who have played a particular MMO for multiple years, perhaps because they have invested somewhat more heavily into the game than those who play them for "Free"
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
I believe what most people fail to admit is that people who have lots of time to play generally sacrificed something in their lives to gain that time. Perhaps they decided not to make a family and have kids. Perhaps they gave up their time to study and make more money. On the flip side the ones paying money decided that MMOs are not important to them at all. They just want to spend money no them and skip playing most of the game. In reality it is not a fair trade if we are looking at fairness, but RMT has never been about making things fair for people. It is simply about making as much money as possible off people.
No, they just want to play the game in a manner that they enjoy, and if skipping certain content helps with that and they have the means (BTW, most are hardworking, and very employed) they'll go ahead and do it.
Stop looking for fair, nothing in life is fair, seeking such balance is the stuff for fairy tales and maybe organized team sports.
These games are fairy tales. The whole point to play them is escapism. Not to worry about weather you have more money then the next person.
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
Interesting observation. Totally off base IMO, and overlooks so many factors that would go into a person's decision to engage in RMT. Not the least being trying to level the playing field between those who have more time to spend playing a game (always an acceptable advantage it seems) and those who don't.
Doesn't matter if you agree with their perception of the situation, to them the money needs to be spent to save time and increase their enjoyment of the game.
I've known RMT'er who have played a particular MMO for multiple years, perhaps because they have invested somewhat more heavily into the game than those who play them for "Free"
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
I believe what most people fail to admit is that people who have lots of time to play generally sacrificed something in their lives to gain that time. Perhaps they decided not to make a family and have kids. Perhaps they gave up their time to study and make more money. On the flip side the ones paying money decided that MMOs are not important to them at all. They just want to spend money no them and skip playing most of the game. In reality it is not a fair trade if we are looking at fairness, but RMT has never been about making things fair for people. It is simply about making as much money as possible off people.
No, they just want to play the game in a manner that they enjoy, and if skipping certain content helps with that and they have the means (BTW, most are hardworking, and very employed) they'll go ahead and do it.
Stop looking for fair, nothing in life is fair, seeking such balance is the stuff for fairy tales and maybe organized team sports.
These games are fairy tales. The whole point to play them is escapism. Not to worry about weather you have more money then the next person.
The whole point of them is to crush your opponents into the ground while dancing on the tears of their corpses, anything else just a bonus.
But I digress, as has often been said in this thread, if the developers support a particular form of RMT, then it is not cheating the truest sense of the word.
There's MMO's I won't play, because there is too much of a P2W element (Runes of Magic quickly comes to mind) but I can accept certain levels of RMT such as evidenced in EVE, just my particular tolerance level.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Flyte27 Some things are black and white to me. I think a better analogy is comparing it to something like smoking. Smoking is legal, but you know it's bad for your health. To me RMT is like smoking. It doesn't destroy your health, but it could destroy you financial situation and it's only there to milk people of their money and prey on people in bad situations. To me it's black and white bad. People can try to justify by saying that everyone should be able to play any game no matter how much time they have if they have money. Their welcome to their opinion.
If you ever followed any kind of US politics, you should know that analogies really serve zero purpose especially when people (like yourself) seem to liberally apply it to another situation despite not having any direct translation.
Your analogy implies that cash shops in games is bad for its health, which is relative, financially, no it serves to support the game especially if the game doesn't rely on subscriptions i.e. Guild Wars. Lowering barriers and providing a place for people to play an MMO was a huge plus to those that don't think they should have to pay or feel obligated to a subscription, it practically sustained Guild Wars 1 and 2 after box prices and I'm pretty sure Guild Wars 1 persists to this day and it wasn't because it was fed steak and potatoes.
And implying RMT is only there to milk people of their money is somewhat ironic because if we are talking about spending money and MMO's, then subscriptions must bleed everyone out of their money, at least with RMT, people have a choice whether to spend or not (and they tend to do based on whether or not they feel the game is worth it, so game quality matters as much if not more in RMT, it probably represents free market and capitalism more so than subscription which comparatively would be socialist).
You completely ignore the fact every business out there ultimate goal is money, but usually acquiring that money (especially in todays competitive world) requires serving people in their best interest or as much as possible. I guess restaurants are out to milk people of their money too, or retail stores or anywhere else you spent money recently, you best watch your pockets before all your money gets milked by this entirely greedy world we live in.
Originally posted by Flyte27 Some things are black and white to me. I think a better analogy is comparing it to something like smoking. Smoking is legal, but you know it's bad for your health. To me RMT is like smoking. It doesn't destroy your health, but it could destroy you financial situation and it's only there to milk people of their money and prey on people in bad situations. To me it's black and white bad. People can try to justify by saying that everyone should be able to play any game no matter how much time they have if they have money. Their welcome to their opinion.
If you ever followed any kind of US politics, you should know that analogies really serve zero purpose especially when people (like yourself) seem to liberally apply it to another situation despite not having any direct translation.
Your analogy implies that cash shops in games is bad for its health, which is relative, financially, no it serves to support the game especially if the game doesn't rely on subscriptions i.e. Guild Wars. Lowering barriers and providing a place for people to play an MMO was a huge plus to those that don't think they should have to pay or feel obligated to a subscription, it practically sustained Guild Wars 1 and 2 after box prices and I'm pretty sure Guild Wars 1 persists to this day and it wasn't because it was fed steak and potatoes.
And implying RMT is only there to milk people of their money is somewhat ironic because if we are talking about spending money and MMO's, then subscriptions must bleed everyone out of their money, at least with RMT, people have a choice whether to spend or not (and they tend to do based on whether or not they feel the game is worth it, so game quality matters as much if not more in RMT, it probably represents free market and capitalism more so than subscription which comparatively would be socialist).
You completely ignore the fact every business out there ultimate goal is money, but usually acquiring that money (especially in todays competitive world) requires serving people in their best interest or as much as possible. I guess restaurants are out to milk people of their money too, or retail stores or anywhere else you spent money recently, you best watch your pockets before all your money gets milked by this entirely greedy world we live in.
It's funny you say that because I do feel the world is moving more and more towards only caring about money. When I was younger people did things out of kindness or fun. Before that in my parents time the communities were a lot stronger then they are now. It seems a people are now just out there to make money at any cost. It's pretty sickening considering how much I hated the whole idea in the first place when it wasn't as big a deal. It still had a large impact on my life. I'd have been happy if most of the MMOs today had died off. They are pretty horrible games. As for subscriptions they did milk money, but they gave you everything in the game the same as everyone else. This whole idea of a game being completely free for x amount of levels is also stupid IMO. The subscription model worked fine IMO.
It's pretty much like banning players for steroid use and then one day not only legalizing it but selling it to the players. It compromises the entire game.
I can understand how someone would feel it compromises the game as they knew it, however wouldn't it be odd for someone to, after it has been officially made legal, to call it cheating?
Yeh ... and "compromise" is relative. May be it is a much more fun game after steroid is legalizing. Not only the athletes can compete, the doctors can compete with better "super soldier serum" too.
If the rule is the same for everyone, and sanctioned by the owner of the game, there is no cheating.
It's sanctioned cheating.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
He has a valid point though - you can pay $11/month for hacking abilities - pc gamer just ran an article on it and did some interviews with some folks that help run the service.
There are some nice tips on how not to get caught cheating as well.
Add it all up - it's not worth it to rage when you die in pvp and pvp for that matter loses it's status as a metric for ones personal skill progression.
So when did it become ok? - when it makes money, it's ok.
The pc culture won't rebel though, they just keep busting out their wallets, they will buy anything.
Originally posted by Flyte27 It's funny you say that because I do feel the world is moving more and more towards only caring about money. When I was younger people did things out of kindness or fun. Before that in my parents time the communities were a lot stronger then they are now. It seems a people are now just out there to make money at any cost. It's pretty sickening considering how much I hated the whole idea in the first place when it wasn't as big a deal. It still had a large impact on my life. I'd have been happy if most of the MMOs today had died off. They are pretty horrible games. As for subscriptions they did milk money, but they gave you everything in the game the same as everyone else. This whole idea of a game being completely free for x amount of levels is also stupid IMO. The subscription model worked fine IMO.
I'm fairly positive you missed most of the point of my post, money had very little to do with it besides the fact that everyone in society works and exists to make money because its our livelihood.
You never once explain how subscription models is actually better than RMT. As it appears currently or how RMT actually destroys game quality in your opinions. People don't just hand over money to companies unless they think what they are getting is worthwhile and if a game is truly pay to win, wouldn't you think most people would see through that in most of those games?
It's funny that you have this perspective that everyone just does things out of greed but I guess when you wake up in the morning (or at night) and go to work, you do it for free and out of the goodness of your heart and only ask to be paid in bread, water, electricity and internet. It's a very absurd and self-righteous notion and unfortunate that's really how you view the world. I guess some of us don't see a problem in giving up money for things they find worthwhile and working for money in return but I wouldn't also generalize anyone's sole purpose is to go out and get money, that's an entirely untrue and baseless opinion (unless you actually provide a base for us) that does things like poison these forums.
I'm fairly positive you missed most of the point of my post, money had very little to do with it besides the fact that everyone in society works and exists to make money because its our livelihood.
You never once explain how subscription models is actually better than RMT. As it appears currently or how RMT actually destroys game quality in your opinions. People don't just hand over money to companies unless they think what they are getting is worthwhile and if a game is truly pay to win, wouldn't you think most people would see through that in most of those games?
I actually did explain how subscription model is better then the RMT model. In the RMT model the game invades on real life by constantly attempting to get you to spend more money in game. In a subscription model everything is equal and there is no invasion of real life in the game. Everyone has equal opportunity in the game provided they are willing to sacrifice some of their time to get it.
I also don't play games to buy things for real money in games. I play games to have a good time. Having to think about weather I want to buy something in game is not a good time to me. I'm buying the game itself. That should be enough. I'm buying the experience of playing the game. Not virtual goods that will not do me any good in real life. It's pointless and I will never buy a virtual item in a game.
It's funny that you have this perspective that everyone just does things out of greed but I guess when you wake up in the morning (or at night) and go to work, you do it for free and out of the goodness of your heart and only ask to be paid in bread, water, electricity and internet. It's a very absurd and self-righteous notion and unfortunate that's really how you view the world. I guess some of us don't see a problem in giving up money for things they find worthwhile and working for money in return but I wouldn't also generalize anyone's sole purpose is to go out and get money, that's an entirely untrue and baseless opinion (unless you actually provide a base for us) that does things like poison these forums.
It's pretty obvious the greed out there these days. There are people everywhere doing scams. RMT is a scam IMO, but companies are able to make whatever they want legal because they have the power.
Comments
I agree with a couple above posters, you have many flaws in your arguments/statements and I think the worst part is the sheer number of people agreeing with these points. Of course if you deal in absolutes, you can cast away anything in your own mind as terrible i.e. if any game involves money its pay to win no matter how you slice it -- GW2 comment.
Then you make an exception for EVE Online because its an obvious hole in your way of thinking in terms of pay to win.
You have no gray area and only deal in terms of black and white and polarizing a topic doesn't necessarily mean this discussion gets any more meaningful (especially one that's beat to death).
You never even fully explain why something is always pay to win, what if the only thing you can buy are cosmetic changes to every piece of armor, is that pay to win? Mounts? Pay to win? What exactly is winning even in an MMO? The fact you hit max level, got that rare piece of loot or perhaps the fact you managed to successful enjoy the last 3 hours of your time with friends?
I think this is the root of the issue with people and MMO's, most approach it the wrong way, everyone just focuses on the loot aka carrot on the stick rather than emphasize the experience you are having with a group of people. MMO's currently are being treated as single player games with very human AI and not as a socializing medium. I see many people enter and leave MMO's due to the same reasons like its boring, I can't find "static/steady raid groups" etc., you feel too obligated to it etc., all reasons that ignored the biggest advantage an MMO can provide over any other genre: socializing and bringing people together.
So ultimately, given there's attempts made to try to keep down illegal RMT, gold selling etc. or the existence of company RMT etc., who really cares? Is gold selling nerfing my ability to talk to my guildmates? Is it making it harder to grouping with others? Is it ruining my social experience overall? Most likely its no and if it is, use the ignore features and help everyone by reporting.
PS if it helps you get you to improve your experience a bit more (assuming you are even playing MMO's), just pretend the RMT'ers is the MMO equivalent to a black market, they aren't supposed to exist but they do anyway and that IMO could possibly be realer than anything solely reliant on a subscription (which are fading away fast).
Perhaps its not the MMO industry that is slipping or "going down the toilet", it could possibly be your own expectations of what you think MMO's "should be" that are.
RMT has exsisted for as long as mmos has. even in the late 90s with everquest. only difference is back then, RMT was a lot of profit with minimal investment. now with so many people doing it, including the companies themselves, its a lot more work with less profit.
theres always going to be a segment of people who need instant gratifications. one thing i've learned is that these people arent real mmo players. they think they are because they are playing mmos, but in truth they haven't figured out that one plays an mmo for the long term, not the instant gratification. they are way better off playing regular multiplayer games like call of duty and league of legends. when they figure out they cant get what they want instantly, they resort to RMT to get that instant gratification fix they need. these are usually the players who will hop on a game for a couple of months and off they go to the next big new release. the influx of these types of players have increased with the internet becoming more and more readily available. the asian mmos figured this out first. now the western mmo companies have started to figure it out and want to get into the piece of that pie.
lets face it, those older nerds like us who remember the days of 28.8 and 56k have seen how the internet has gone from mostly nerds to all kinds of people. its no big surprise when all kinds of people join the online community and drive up the activity number of what ever they are into. in this case, people who buy ingame gold for cash.
I used to be so glad that there were players in Eve who thought PLEX was going to buy them kills. They just learned a battleship skill so they'd buy a Mach or a Nightmare and fit it up with deadspace mods and head to low sec to "win Eve". It made our kill boards look great and kept us funded.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I think this is especially true for casual players who don't have the hours to put into a game, who want to have fun instead of deadly grinding for a few gold. Maybe some developers will wake up and make a two tier game, a choice for the hard core gamers, and one for those who don't consider hard core, fun. Of course, they couldn't then participate In the same PvP.
Yeh ... and "compromise" is relative. May be it is a much more fun game after steroid is legalizing. Not only the athletes can compete, the doctors can compete with better "super soldier serum" too.
If the rule is the same for everyone, and sanctioned by the owner of the game, there is no cheating.
MMORPG.com needs to get on to adding a +1 button of some sort so I don't have to just quote these sorts of things.
To OP and my assumed point of the post...
Paying money isn't cheating, it's capitalism. In Soviet Russia Transfers Real Monied You.
Also in Guild Wars 2.. I only ever saw mini people and stupid outfits on the cash shop. Trading gems for gold and buying something someone crafted out of the AH did seem crazy.. Because crafting and gathering components in Guild Wars 2 WAS NOT as difficult as you've made it out to be.
So you want to be lazy and have access to the top gear in a game?
I think that's your problem. Not that anyone's cheating.
a yo ho ho
Some things are black and white to me. I think a better analogy is comparing it to something like smoking. Smoking is legal, but you know it's bad for your health. To me RMT is like smoking. It doesn't destroy your health, but it could destroy you financial situation and it's only there to milk people of their money and prey on people in bad situations. To me it's black and white bad. People can try to justify by saying that everyone should be able to play any game no matter how much time they have if they have money. Their welcome to their opinion.
Interesting observation. Totally off base IMO, and overlooks so many factors that would go into a person's decision to engage in RMT. Not the least being trying to level the playing field between those who have more time to spend playing a game (always an acceptable advantage it seems) and those who don't.
Doesn't matter if you agree with their perception of the situation, to them the money needs to be spent to save time and increase their enjoyment of the game.
I've known RMT'er who have played a particular MMO for multiple years, perhaps because they have invested somewhat more heavily into the game than those who play them for "Free"
The motivations can be many, including of course actually wanting to buy items of power. EVE did a study a few years ago which came to the conclusion that items of power are the greatest money makers in any game, they just have the unfortunate side affect of alienating everyone else who doesn't want them and makes it self defeating to provide, unless you can disguise them somehow in the form of lock boxes, or gear enhancements.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I believe what most people fail to admit is that people who have lots of time to play generally sacrificed something in their lives to gain that time. Perhaps they decided not to make a family and have kids. Perhaps they gave up their time to study and make more money. On the flip side the ones paying money decided that MMOs are not important to them at all. They just want to spend money no them and skip playing most of the game. In reality it is not a fair trade if we are looking at fairness, but RMT has never been about making things fair for people. It is simply about making as much money as possible off people.
No, they just want to play the game in a manner that they enjoy, and if skipping certain content helps with that and they have the means (BTW, most are hardworking, and very employed) they'll go ahead and do it.
Stop looking for fair, nothing in life is fair, seeking such balance is the stuff for fairy tales and maybe organized team sports.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
These games are fairy tales. The whole point to play them is escapism. Not to worry about weather you have more money then the next person.
The whole point of them is to crush your opponents into the ground while dancing on the tears of their corpses, anything else just a bonus.
But I digress, as has often been said in this thread, if the developers support a particular form of RMT, then it is not cheating the truest sense of the word.
There's MMO's I won't play, because there is too much of a P2W element (Runes of Magic quickly comes to mind) but I can accept certain levels of RMT such as evidenced in EVE, just my particular tolerance level.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
TL;DR - RAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE!!!!!! CHEEAAATTEERRRRRRRRRSSSSSSS!!!!!!! RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't like the cheating either but man, that was a Great Wall of China Text......
I would not say that cheating, hacking, botting and exploiting is suddenly "okay".
People dont like cheaters, bots, hacks, exploits who give others an advantage and this wont change.
If you ever followed any kind of US politics, you should know that analogies really serve zero purpose especially when people (like yourself) seem to liberally apply it to another situation despite not having any direct translation.
Your analogy implies that cash shops in games is bad for its health, which is relative, financially, no it serves to support the game especially if the game doesn't rely on subscriptions i.e. Guild Wars. Lowering barriers and providing a place for people to play an MMO was a huge plus to those that don't think they should have to pay or feel obligated to a subscription, it practically sustained Guild Wars 1 and 2 after box prices and I'm pretty sure Guild Wars 1 persists to this day and it wasn't because it was fed steak and potatoes.
And implying RMT is only there to milk people of their money is somewhat ironic because if we are talking about spending money and MMO's, then subscriptions must bleed everyone out of their money, at least with RMT, people have a choice whether to spend or not (and they tend to do based on whether or not they feel the game is worth it, so game quality matters as much if not more in RMT, it probably represents free market and capitalism more so than subscription which comparatively would be socialist).
You completely ignore the fact every business out there ultimate goal is money, but usually acquiring that money (especially in todays competitive world) requires serving people in their best interest or as much as possible. I guess restaurants are out to milk people of their money too, or retail stores or anywhere else you spent money recently, you best watch your pockets before all your money gets milked by this entirely greedy world we live in.
It's funny you say that because I do feel the world is moving more and more towards only caring about money. When I was younger people did things out of kindness or fun. Before that in my parents time the communities were a lot stronger then they are now. It seems a people are now just out there to make money at any cost. It's pretty sickening considering how much I hated the whole idea in the first place when it wasn't as big a deal. It still had a large impact on my life. I'd have been happy if most of the MMOs today had died off. They are pretty horrible games. As for subscriptions they did milk money, but they gave you everything in the game the same as everyone else. This whole idea of a game being completely free for x amount of levels is also stupid IMO. The subscription model worked fine IMO.
I'm not sure if it was in the first hour, but at least by the end of the first day the internet went live.
It's sanctioned cheating.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/He has a valid point though - you can pay $11/month for hacking abilities - pc gamer just ran an article on it and did some interviews with some folks that help run the service.
There are some nice tips on how not to get caught cheating as well.
Add it all up - it's not worth it to rage when you die in pvp and pvp for that matter loses it's status as a metric for ones personal skill progression.
So when did it become ok? - when it makes money, it's ok.
The pc culture won't rebel though, they just keep busting out their wallets, they will buy anything.
I'm fairly positive you missed most of the point of my post, money had very little to do with it besides the fact that everyone in society works and exists to make money because its our livelihood.
You never once explain how subscription models is actually better than RMT. As it appears currently or how RMT actually destroys game quality in your opinions. People don't just hand over money to companies unless they think what they are getting is worthwhile and if a game is truly pay to win, wouldn't you think most people would see through that in most of those games?
It's funny that you have this perspective that everyone just does things out of greed but I guess when you wake up in the morning (or at night) and go to work, you do it for free and out of the goodness of your heart and only ask to be paid in bread, water, electricity and internet. It's a very absurd and self-righteous notion and unfortunate that's really how you view the world. I guess some of us don't see a problem in giving up money for things they find worthwhile and working for money in return but I wouldn't also generalize anyone's sole purpose is to go out and get money, that's an entirely untrue and baseless opinion (unless you actually provide a base for us) that does things like poison these forums.