Very well put out, I more or less completely agree.
And I have no doubt majority of gamers will never comprehend what you pointed out. And even if they do, the lack of morals and ethichs combined with the gaming addiction combined with our competitive nature will keep thousands if not millions still happily use such systems made by people who are in just to make money and than some more.
Or can we wake up one day and show companies that people actually have all the power if only we knew how to get over personal boundaries?
I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ released, and I've played most of the biggies along the way and been a huge fan of the genre.
For the majority of this ride, there have been several things that have clearly been cheating. Client-side hacks like teleport hacks or speed hacks, for example. Real money trading (RMT) for another.
Along the way the quality of MMORPGs has kind of slid into the toilet and so many games either end up F2P or start of F2P and switch to using pay 2 win cash shops to continue to make money. Sometimes part of that pay 2 win cash shop involves selling in-game currency for cash - which means the company is now the RMT provider and cheating is now part of the game. You get what you pay for. And somebody IS paying in F2P, you either "pay" by playing a crappy game or you buy a lot of game data for cash that you'd spend time earning in real games.
Players have pretty much come to expect pay 2 win in cash shops and even cash for game currency isn't really a big deal in F2P games anymore. We expect sleaze in F2P MMORPGs, we get sleaze in MMORPGs.
So then, what happens when games like EVE have plex? Now, I don't consider EVE to be an MMORPG the same way that EQ, or WoW, or FFXIV are MMORPGs. It's massive. It has subs. It's online. But it's not exactly the same style of game for gameplay or overall flow. So....the fact that plex is basically cash for currency doesn't much matter to me in that game.
Maybe it's because I'm older and not part of the steal everything that isn't being guarded by someone with an assault rifle generation that I've often heard, and believe that just because someone else does something bad/illegal/whatever doesn't mean it's ok to do a bad/illegal/whatever thing. So to me, the fact that EVE, a game I don't play and don't care about, allows players to pay 2 win with cash, doesn't mean that it's now OK in any other game that wants to include it.
To me, cheating is cheating. I'm not a jock but I used to play some sports, and played a lot of sports growing up, and played board games of all types, and card games, and then consoles (this is back in Atari 2600 times, before PCs were common), and eventually PC games. At no time in all of my sports or gaming life has cheating ever been acceptable.
And to me, RMT is cheating. As it has been in most MMORPGs since MMORPGs began. Paying cash for gold is just like using a console cheat code in a single player game - except the cheater is an even bigger loser because they're are PAYING to cheat (how dumb to you have to be?).
Another slippery slope shows up with a game like GW2. It had a premium box price at release ($60) but no sub. Buy to play. But GW2 also has a cash shop, with plenty of pay to win, and GW2 has the gem store, which is just a fancy way of saying you can turn cash into game gold. So basically you can do RMT in GW2 with ANet taking a cut instead of a chinese gold farmer, and you can pay 2 win. Back when I quit GW2 there was a bunch of uber weapons you could craft, if you grinded your everloving butt off to get the bazillion materials needed. There was no way I was doing that. Zero. But, since those items could be sold in the auction house, anybody could get one if they could come up with the insane amount of gold. Not so insane if you're willing to dump a bunch of cash into the game for the ultimate in pay 2 win.
To me it pretty much ruins the game and diminishes your accomplishments - thus the entire point of playing - when people can just buy their way thru the game with cash.
Now with GW2, since it's not a sub based game, and since it has a cash shop like a F2P, and since it involves pay 2 win via cash shop no matter how you slice it, I think players again accept it somewhat because the game is somewhat F2P. Players expect there to be some lameness involved when there's a cash shop. As with EVE, I also don't consider GW2 to be an MMORPG along the lines of more typical MMORPGs, because it's more of a single player game that happens to be online. You don't really do classic grouping things, you more share spaces with other soloists and call it a group - sometimes. So again, since nobody I know who actually LIKES more typical MMORPG gameplay could stomach GW2 for very long - I don't care if people cheat and pay cash for gold in GW2.
And again - just because some game allows cash for gold and pay 2 win doesn't mean it's something that we should tolerate or expect in all games.
Now we come to where I really have a problem with where this trend is going. WildStar. WildStar terms itself as a "premium game" and it does have a premium box price of $60, and it has a monthly $15 sub. It has all the typical elements of a more typical MMORPG (even if it's in the modern suck style of too much solo idiot mode and pointless instanced PvP).
I like sub-based MMORPGs for a couple of reasons. For one, I don't mind paying for some of the least expensive entertainment I can find IF it's worth the sub. Obviously many MMORPGs end up not being worth a sub - mostly the newer ones, because no single player game is worth a sub and they just fail to deliver on the whole MMORPG thing.
But more importantly, I don't like pay 2 win. I don't like cheating. I don't like CHEATERS or people who willingly pay 2 win (because they're incapable or unwilling to actually play...yeah...not a fan of lazy and/or incompetent). A major benefit of sub-based games is that we all pay the same amount to play. Period. Level playing field. We all have the exact same ceiling for success, and the same potential for success, and it's only limited by how we play the game.
IMO, as soon as you allow cash to be a part of the equation, aka cheating, you distort the playing field and the balance. Now it's not just how you play, but it's also how much you're willing to play. Maybe you're too lazy to gather crafting mats and buy them with cash, or can't be bothered to play the game to get enough gold to decorate barbie's dream house, or you blew all your coin and can't afford your mount now. Whatever it is, if you solve that problem by throwing cash at the game, by cheating, you're ruining the game.
So my problem with WildStar is CREDD. CREDD is a system where you can pay your sub with cash, or you can buy a CREDD token that "stands" for a sub for more than the normal cost of a sub and use that for your sub - if you're an idiot. More likely you use that CREDD token in the game, where you can list it on the commodity exchange (WildStar's 2nd Auction House - ie, player economy), and sell it for gold in the game. Some other player with extra gold can buy your CREDD token and use it for their sub, avoiding spending their cash. Either way, the sub is paid - Carbine isn't giving our free gameplay (but they kind of market it that way).
And the bottom line is that the person who buys the CREDD for cash and sells it in game for gold is ultimately paying cash to get gold. Which is RMT in most games, except here Carbine is the RMT. And in most games it's bannable cheating. But now, with the evolution of sleaze in MMORPGs, it's acceptable?
So how did we get to this point? Where what was bannable cheating a few years ago is now a game feature? And players don't care? And the gaming press doesn't care?
People are people, they come up with all kinds of justifcations for doing lame things. People will give you all kinds of reasons why it's ok to steal intellecual property online - when the main reason they do it is BECAUSE THEY can (with little far of getting caught and punished; those same people most likely do not shoplift all of their groceries or gun down everyone they disagree with since they'd be caught and punished).
People come up with lots of lame justifications for why it's now ok to cheat in MMORPGs, like how you can cheat via CREDD in WildStar.
I've seen people write that it's ok because EVE has Plex. Pretty thin.
People will say it's not really cheating. Um. No. It's cheating. If you dose with banned substances and compete in sports it's cheating. If you use a console command to give yourself piles of gold, resources, units, whatever in a single player game it's cheating - that's why they call them CHEAT CODES. The basic idea is that when you use external means to get ahead in an otherwise closed system, you are cheating. So using cash to buy game data in games that have virtual economies is cheating. That's why it's been a bannable offense thru MMORPG history and something companies aggressively go after. It undermines a game or sport when cheating is going on.
So I don't really buy the reasons people have for saying that companies selling gold for cash in so-called premium games is ok. Maybe it's tolerable in F2P garbage - if you play F2P garbage. You pretty much have to expect cheating in games that lie about being free (since, derp, nobody is making million dollar games for free, SOMEONE is paying, F2P is about higher profit margins for the bean counters, not about doing anything good for players or quality of game). But when a game bills itself as premium, when a game has a sub, when a game is theoretically as good as it can get for integrity in this currently lame MMORPG genre, isn't it a bit much for that so-called premium game to have some of the most blatant cheating built right in to it?
I guess I'm just wierd. It's really odd to me that this isn't huge news for the gaming sites. But then, it's not like many gaming sites actually DO news these days, they're mostly just paid review and paid advertising/hype sites for the big name games. It's pretty sad.
tried to read all your text and find the point where you actually mention cheating. failed.
if you are able to write that within 2 lines, maybe we can argue here, if you talk that much without saying actually anything at all.... i'd say you are the one cheating.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Voqar you sir have hit the nail on the hat n i applaud u...the new "evolution" of mmo plalyers are blind dum kids...if they need ti actually use there brain to play they will whine...look at what happen to WoW...but that being said....p2w is a horrible thing and yes it is cheating no matter how you look at it....back in the day we used to p2w...by back in the day i mean in the 90's...how? do you remember a lil tlhing called..
GAME GENIE...you paid for cheat to win......p..2...w.....wake up ppl...its he truth....n the truth hurts....
Haha, everything is an ESO reference for me right now....
Anyway, to get to the bottom of this story we have to go back to the beginning (TM@Shoddycast)
Cheating has pretty much ALWAYS been a part of MMORPG's. Dark Sun (As old as it gets) = Duping, code hacking (i.e. turning cheap berries into expensive diamonds), tabbing out to keep from being killed, speed hacking, etc.... Everquest = Looking up quests and item drops on the internet (yes, that is cheating), the blackmarket buying and selling of characters, powerlevelling services, items, macro exploiting (and yes, that is also cheating) etc... and all along the way it was the companies that got the drama when things went wrong.
Someone got beat? It was customer service that had to hear about it.
Someone got a loot that someone else had worked for a year to get to simply because they were the buddy of the guild master and had purchased an already leveled character from someone else? - It was the companies bottom line that suffered.
And on and on.
So one day, early in the history of EQ2, someone got an idea, "If they want to sell their stuff so bad, why not set up a means for them to do so and take a cut of those profits in exchange for insuring that the transactions went as they were supposed to."
The Sony Station Exchange was set up and for the first time something that was considered "Cheating" not only became ok to do, but became sanctioned by the very company that set up the rules that were being circumvented.
Everything that has happened since then, DDO's Free to Play deal, cash shops, Plex, and even EQ2 and WOW's free powerleveled characters (or didn't you realize that was what that was?), has been based off of exploiting what the playerbase of these games will do whether you let them or not. And the playerbase is not going to stop, and so I don't suspect that the companies are going to stop either. And that all goes back to what the guy said earlier in this string, as long as there's something that must be attained there are going to be people who will choose the low road to attain it. Even in a game that can not be won.
(Edit - After reading this back to myself and thinking about all the things that spawned from our cheating, in game maps, quest hubs, that little gold string or arrow pointing us to our quest objectives, the term "I LEARNED IT FROM YOU DAD!!!!!!!" just jumped into my head and I couldn't help but laugh and share. HAHAHA)
Originally posted by Torcip Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?
Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. If there is no fear of punishment, then there is no punishment for cheating in the first place... or there is something very wrong with the person who is cheating. There is a lot of psycho-babble one could say about this. But that's the basics of it...
Did you learn this in a Pub after having 10 pints?
Fear has never been an appropriate instrument to prevent anyone of doing something.
Have a look at the US justice system. Compared to for example European laws, the US courts convict to long sentences and even to death. Yet, the US is the country with the highest incarceration rates worldwide. Their jails are literally bursting. So, the fear of punishment seems not to work that well.
In my opinion, the best solutions are creating a healthy community, proactive actions and educational advertising alongside with a zero tolerance towards cheaters. Example:
Step 1: Understand that cheating can never be prevented at a 100% rate.
Step 2: As a developer, create easy-to-use instruments to report cheaters. (ESOs mail system for example is good)
Step 3: Create a healthy community and continously advertize to report suspicious players.
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
Step 5: Give feedback to the player base. For example press releases with total numbers of banned cheaters.
You simply don't understand. This is because I am using older and more precise meanings of these words that have been lost through time because of Politically Correct non-sense.
Fear of punishment is synonymous for respect for authority and/or law. We as human beings are supposed to learn this at a very young age. For instance:
Why do you not stick a penny in an electrical outlet? Well, if you do not know the consequences of such action... then you probably would. Most people don't do it for one of 2 reasons:
1. They're afraid of being shocked because someone explained to them what would happen.
2. They're afraid of being shocked... again.
Let's take what I said earlier and plug in these different words:
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. "
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for authority."
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for the law."
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for the rules. "
If you don't respect authority, the laws, or the rules, then you have no fear of being punished. People who are in jail... whatever they did, at that point in time... they had no fear of breaking the law because there is no respect for the law, and no fear of being punished by the law or the authority which upholds it because there is no respect for the authority which upholds the law.
You can try to argue this every which way from Tuesday... but this is the simply fact of the matter.
"Have a look at the US justice system. Compared to for example European laws, the US courts convict to long sentences and even to death. Yet, the US is the country with the highest incarceration rates worldwide. Their jails are literally bursting. So, the fear of punishment seems not to work that well."
You're not looking at this issue correctly. What I am talking about is a simple fact of life. People fear punishment. They respect the law of the land. They respect the authority which upholds it. They respect it so much, that its almost ingrained into them. That's because it IS ingrained into them.
Your body reacts out of fear of further punishment when it does something you aren't supposed to do. What's the punishment of putting your hand on a hot iron? You get burned. That pain shoots up into your brain and tells you to remove your hand. You do. From that moment on... you know not to touch a hot iron, because it will punish you with pain. You now have respect for a hot iron. That hot iron has authority over your otherwise normalized state of mind and well being. And if you ever again attempt to question that authority... it will burn you again and again and again until you get it in your head that you shouldn't touch it.
Some people build up a resistance and are able to go longer. This has a lot to do with people who get out of jail and continue to break the law. But it also brings up the question of why they didn't know what they were doing was wrong in the first place.
My point is... the fact that there are so many people in the entire world who are NOT in jail and serving sentences is proof that what I am talking about is true. Have you ever been to jail? No? Why not? Because it sucks. And a normal person should make it a life goal to never have to go.
The fact that the US has so many people in jail is proof that there is something else causing some problems with the way things should normally and naturally go.
Now... I would love to go into this with you further, but I've already gone into it a little deeper than I originally intended to. All I can say to further this context is that fear and terror are two completely different things. Most people will wrongly associate fear and terror as the same thing. They are not. Fear is a functional psychological fail-safe that is synonymous with respect. Terror is a word that describes complete and utter dysfunctional shut-down of all rational, reasonable, and logical faculties.
What do I mean?
When you cannot respond to a dangerous situation because you are in total mental shutdown of the reality - you are in terror.
When you can respond to a dangerous situation and are able to take action by virtue of the fact that you identify that there is danger.... then that is fear. Even if you react out of shear muscle memory - that is still fear, as it is completely reasonable for a person to remove themselves from a dangerous situation.
It is not reasonable for a person to not react to a dangerous situation. This is the difference. One leaves you functional. The other leaves you helpless.
Step 1: Understand that cheating can never be prevented at a 100% rate.
I never said anything about prevention. That's entirely different conversation. But even still, to understand that cheating even exists is to understand that you have a respect for the law and authority.
Step 2: As a developer, create easy-to-use instruments to report cheaters. (ESOs mail system for example is good)
Reporting cheaters is a form of punishment. Just saying....
Step 3: Create a healthy community and continously advertize to report suspicious players.
You can't create a healthy community without punishing people who are unhealthy - cheaters.
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
This is more punishment.
Step 5: Give feedback to the player base. For example press releases with total numbers of banned cheaters.
This does 3 things. One, it is a reward for people who are respecting the law and the authority which upholds it. Two, it is establishing to everyone who is the authority in the first place, what the law says, and the punishment that will be given if the law is broken. And three, allows the people who already respect the law to put their trust in the authority which upholds it.
Like I said... there's a lot I could say about this stuff.... but I don't think you're going to understand any of it if you can't understand even the simple premise I wrote earlier. So... whatev - gg, bro!
Originally posted by rojo6934 lol @ GW2 is pay to win.
So you can't buy the gold with real money then buy the best legendary weapons in the game off the auction house with that RMT gold? How about buying indestructible harvesting tools? What if I want to earn a Quaggan backpack in-game? I mean we all know winning at Guild Wars 2 is about having a Quaggan backpack.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Sad how something that could have been a legitimate discussion about cheating gets bogged down by an endless rant. I didn't read it all the way through just to see if OP blames Obamacare for ruining for favorite MMO.
i suspect the OP is a Chinese hacker selling teleport and speed hacks, trying to muddy the water and poison the well of a potentially fruitful discussion. /baseless_speculations
It's not so much the devs changing the rules that bothers me, it's that RMTers used to have to hide their gold purchases from most other payers lest they be mercilessly mocked for it.
I don't like the acceptance of using your wallet to get an advantage over those who don't in a game, especially an advantage that can translate to group content, particularly PvP content. No matter what devs say, this is not okay and never will be to me, beyond some very limited things such as bag and bank slots, and I would have been happier not to have that for sale, either.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Torcip Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?
Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. If there is no fear of punishment, then there is no punishment for cheating in the first place... or there is something very wrong with the person who is cheating. There is a lot of psycho-babble one could say about this. But that's the basics of it...
I meant if it's not against the rules how is it cheating. Counting cards is heavily frowned upon but it's not cheating as there's no rule in blackjack that says you can't use you brain.
Do you think your wife or girlfriend would consider your flirting with other women cheating... or do you think she would just frown upon it?
Whichever way she goes... you should feel pretty $hitty for doing it. If you don't... then there is something wrong with you.
Like I said, there is a lot to be said about this, but I really don't want to get too deep into it.
Irrelevant. You're talking ethics/morals and this is a discussion of the actual rules. One can consider the rules odd, silly, dumb, imbalanced, etc but it IS the rules. Saying that buying from the official item mall is cheating is at best a display of a lack of understanding. At worst, idiocy or lunacy.
*sigh*
The problem isn't if you broke a rule or not. The problem is you are not identifying that there is even a rule in the first place. If you can't identify the rules within your own mind, or are in some way trying to circumvent the rules by technicality... then you are already morally and ethically bankrupt.
If you were not morally or ethically bankrupt... you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place.
Originally posted by Torcip Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?
Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. If there is no fear of punishment, then there is no punishment for cheating in the first place... or there is something very wrong with the person who is cheating. There is a lot of psycho-babble one could say about this. But that's the basics of it...
I meant if it's not against the rules how is it cheating. Counting cards is heavily frowned upon but it's not cheating as there's no rule in blackjack that says you can't use you brain.
Do you think your wife or girlfriend would consider your flirting with other women cheating... or do you think she would just frown upon it?
Whichever way she goes... you should feel pretty $hitty for doing it. If you don't... then there is something wrong with you.
Like I said, there is a lot to be said about this, but I really don't want to get too deep into it.
Irrelevant. You're talking ethics/morals and this is a discussion of the actual rules. One can consider the rules odd, silly, dumb, imbalanced, etc but it IS the rules. Saying that buying from the official item mall is cheating is at best a display of a lack of understanding. At worst, idiocy or lunacy.
*sigh*
The problem isn't if you broke a rule or not. The problem is you are not identifying that there is even a rule in the first place. If you can't identify the rules within your own mind, or are in some way trying to circumvent the rules by technicality... then you are already morally and ethically bankrupt.
If you were not morally or ethically bankrupt... you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place.
It is completely relevant.
The OP is talking about item malls in MMOs.
Are you saying that since the developers have not explicitly stated the items are legal gameplay that there is some kind of grey area there?
The sigh and insults are cute and all, but let's try to stay on topic, okay?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
I choose to read that literally
Seriously, though, OP has a point. Who would want to play...say...Civilization with someone who uses cheat codes to give themselves modest gains?
"Hey guys, you mind if I use a code to give myself an extra hoplite to fend off these barbarians? It's not like it would affect the game much. I even promise to disband the unit once the barbarians are dead."
Yeah, no...Sometimes people like using cheat codes in their games, and that's okay. But the default is not to. Why is it accepted that it should be different for MMOs? No, it isn't a good enough answer that "the game has to be monetized or there would be no game." Clearly there's a cut-off whereby the p2w gets so obnoxious that the game fails because people refuse to accept it.
Originally posted by Torcip Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?
Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. If there is no fear of punishment, then there is no punishment for cheating in the first place... or there is something very wrong with the person who is cheating. There is a lot of psycho-babble one could say about this. But that's the basics of it...
I meant if it's not against the rules how is it cheating. Counting cards is heavily frowned upon but it's not cheating as there's no rule in blackjack that says you can't use you brain.
Do you think your wife or girlfriend would consider your flirting with other women cheating... or do you think she would just frown upon it?
Whichever way she goes... you should feel pretty $hitty for doing it. If you don't... then there is something wrong with you.
Like I said, there is a lot to be said about this, but I really don't want to get too deep into it.
Irrelevant. You're talking ethics/morals and this is a discussion of the actual rules. One can consider the rules odd, silly, dumb, imbalanced, etc but it IS the rules. Saying that buying from the official item mall is cheating is at best a display of a lack of understanding. At worst, idiocy or lunacy.
*sigh*
The problem isn't if you broke a rule or not. The problem is you are not identifying that there is even a rule in the first place. If you can't identify the rules within your own mind, or are in some way trying to circumvent the rules by technicality... then you are already morally and ethically bankrupt.
If you were not morally or ethically bankrupt... you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place.
It is completely relevant.
The OP is talking about item malls in MMOs.
Are you saying that since the developers have not explicitly stated the items are legal gameplay that there is some kind of grey area there?
The sigh and insults are cute and all, but let's try to stay on topic, okay?
I'm not trying to be insulting or cute. I was frustrated with speaking to you because I don't even know what you are talking about, and I was fatigued to have to reiterate what I had already written.
My original response was to the person who asked the question
"Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?"
I don't know how legitimate Item Malls can even be confused with cheating in the first place. I presumed he was asking about cheaters in general. I answered that question.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You can buy PLEX in the EvE Account Management for real life currency. This bought PLEX is a physical item in-game that can be traded to players for ISK.
You say he is wrong and then just rephrase the same statement poster has made....
I say wrong to his last statement, that PLEX is not RMT. In the end it is, but it is accepted by the player base.
Possible PLEX RMT cycle (values are examples):
1. PlayerA buys PLEX for real money
2. PlayerA sells PLEX to PlayerB for ISK
---- conversion 1 achieved
PLEX is never converted to anything but game time. It can be exchanged or sold on the market, but never converted.
Of course Robokapp is correct: PLEX can not be converted to ISK, but I have not said that the PLEX is converted.
I'm not sure if my writing is too hard to understand, but with a little thinking it should become obvious that the term conversion applies to the currency. The currency is converted. Real Money to ISK.
The PLEX is just the instrument to achieve the conversion.
3. PlayerB is running several bots (1 bot amortizes after a week of farming; 3 weeks are profit)
4. PlayerB sells the farmed ISK to a RMT
---- conversion 2 achieved
Let's not go there. I mean, by using that argument, doesn't owning any item or currency in any MMO makes one a cheater as there is the possibility an RMTer will get/buy it and sell it?
Yes and no.
Owning items or currency in an MMO enables you to become a cheater or item/gold seller. If you finally become a cheater, item/gold seller is a totally different thing.
The PLEX system or equal systems do one thing. They transform game time, something that usually is bound to an account, into a moveable and tradeable item. The problem is that this freedom not only has got advantages. It has a big downside, because it enables botters to easily reconvert the currency from ISK to real money or to let their bots run and run and run to farm more ISK that then is sold for real money.
It is a huge money laundry and the PLEX sales on ebay already seem to outnumber the ISK sales. I assume being the experienced PLEX article author you are, you already know that.
Originally posted by Voqar I don't like CHEATERS or people who willingly pay 2 win (because they're incapable or unwilling to actually play...yeah...not a fan of lazy and/or incompetent)
It cracks me up that you'd call people that don't invest all their time into a game lazy. Actually, I don't have as much time to game as I used to due to being a productive member of society. So it's because I'm not lazy that I fall behind in a game and may want to catch up by spending money earned by being...a productive member in real life.
Originally posted by Torcip Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?
Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. If there is no fear of punishment, then there is no punishment for cheating in the first place... or there is something very wrong with the person who is cheating. There is a lot of psycho-babble one could say about this. But that's the basics of it...
Did you learn this in a Pub after having 10 pints?
Fear has never been an appropriate instrument to prevent anyone of doing something.
Have a look at the US justice system. Compared to for example European laws, the US courts convict to long sentences and even to death. Yet, the US is the country with the highest incarceration rates worldwide. Their jails are literally bursting. So, the fear of punishment seems not to work that well.
In my opinion, the best solutions are creating a healthy community, proactive actions and educational advertising alongside with a zero tolerance towards cheaters. Example:
Step 1: Understand that cheating can never be prevented at a 100% rate.
Step 2: As a developer, create easy-to-use instruments to report cheaters. (ESOs mail system for example is good)
Step 3: Create a healthy community and continously advertize to report suspicious players.
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
Step 5: Give feedback to the player base. For example press releases with total numbers of banned cheaters.
You simply don't understand. This is because I am using older and more precise meanings of these words that have been lost through time because of Politically Correct non-sense.
Fear of punishment is synonymous for respect for authority and/or law. We as human beings are supposed to learn this at a very young age. For instance:
Why do you not stick a penny in an electrical outlet? Well, if you do not know the consequences of such action... then you probably would. Most people don't do it for one of 2 reasons:
1. They're afraid of being shocked because someone explained to them what would happen.
2. They're afraid of being shocked... again.
Let's take what I said earlier and plug in these different words:
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. "
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for authority."
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for the law."
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for the rules. "
If you don't respect authority, the laws, or the rules, then you have no fear of being punished. People who are in jail... whatever they did, at that point in time... they had no fear of breaking the law because there is no respect for the law, and no fear of being punished by the law or the authority which upholds it because there is no respect for the authority which upholds the law.
You can try to argue this every which way from Tuesday... but this is the simply fact of the matter.
"Have a look at the US justice system. Compared to for example European laws, the US courts convict to long sentences and even to death. Yet, the US is the country with the highest incarceration rates worldwide. Their jails are literally bursting. So, the fear of punishment seems not to work that well."
You're not looking at this issue correctly. What I am talking about is a simple fact of life. People fear punishment. They respect the law of the land. They respect the authority which upholds it. They respect it so much, that its almost ingrained into them. That's because it IS ingrained into them.
Your body reacts out of fear of further punishment when it does something you aren't supposed to do. What's the punishment of putting your hand on a hot iron? You get burned. That pain shoots up into your brain and tells you to remove your hand. You do. From that moment on... you know not to touch a hot iron, because it will punish you with pain. You now have respect for a hot iron. That hot iron has authority over your otherwise normalized state of mind and well being. And if you ever again attempt to question that authority... it will burn you again and again and again until you get it in your head that you shouldn't touch it.
Some people build up a resistance and are able to go longer. This has a lot to do with people who get out of jail and continue to break the law. But it also brings up the question of why they didn't know what they were doing was wrong in the first place.
My point is... the fact that there are so many people in the entire world who are NOT in jail and serving sentences is proof that what I am talking about is true. Have you ever been to jail? No? Why not? Because it sucks. And a normal person should make it a life goal to never have to go.
The fact that the US has so many people in jail is proof that there is something else causing some problems with the way things should normally and naturally go.
Now... I would love to go into this with you further, but I've already gone into it a little deeper than I originally intended to. All I can say to further this context is that fear and terror are two completely different things. Most people will wrongly associate fear and terror as the same thing. They are not. Fear is a functional psychological fail-safe that is synonymous with respect. Terror is a word that describes complete and utter dysfunctional shut-down of all rational, reasonable, and logical faculties.
What do I mean?
When you cannot respond to a dangerous situation because you are in total mental shutdown of the reality - you are in terror.
When you can respond to a dangerous situation and are able to take action by virtue of the fact that you identify that there is danger.... then that is fear. Even if you react out of shear muscle memory - that is still fear, as it is completely reasonable for a person to remove themselves from a dangerous situation.
It is not reasonable for a person to not react to a dangerous situation. This is the difference. One leaves you functional. The other leaves you helpless.
Step 1: Understand that cheating can never be prevented at a 100% rate.
I never said anything about prevention. That's entirely different conversation. But even still, to understand that cheating even exists is to understand that you have a respect for the law and authority.
Step 2: As a developer, create easy-to-use instruments to report cheaters. (ESOs mail system for example is good)
Reporting cheaters is a form of punishment. Just saying....
Step 3: Create a healthy community and continously advertize to report suspicious players.
You can't create a healthy community without punishing people who are unhealthy - cheaters.
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
This is more punishment.
Step 5: Give feedback to the player base. For example press releases with total numbers of banned cheaters.
This does 3 things. One, it is a reward for people who are respecting the law and the authority which upholds it. Two, it is establishing to everyone who is the authority in the first place, what the law says, and the punishment that will be given if the law is broken. And three, allows the people who already respect the law to put their trust in the authority which upholds it.
Like I said... there's a lot I could say about this stuff.... but I don't think you're going to understand any of it if you can't understand even the simple premise I wrote earlier. So... whatev - gg, bro!
I have the feeling you do not understand the terms you are using.
1) Punishment: Is an act of penalizing someone for an action that is considered wrong by society standards.
A child getting shocked by sticking a penny in an electrical outlet is not punished. It experiences that the human body can act as conductor. The electric outlet does not punish the child. It simply follows physics. Same goes for your vibrant hot iron example. Simple physics.
2) Respect: Fear is an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger, pain, or harm.
Respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. Logic conclusion: Something that is considered an unpleasant emotion can never induce respect. Respect for laws and authority comes because we accept certain society standards and consider them right. It is not right to steal. It is not right to kill. It is not right to lie. It is not right to cheat. Respecting these society standards is something parents teach their children. So, you could probably say that respect for authority is something that emerges from education and admiration.
3) "Reporting cheaters is a form of punishment. Just saying...."
Erm nope. To report means to give a spoken or written account of something that one has observed, heard, done, or investigated. Nothing else. If the reported person gets punished is up to the receptor of the report.
Hopefully this helps to understand what respect or punishment means.
And with all the respect. I'm not your bro.
**definitions of the terms respect, punishment, respect have been taken out of the Oxford English Dictionary.
Originally posted by Voqar I don't like CHEATERS or people who willingly pay 2 win (because they're incapable or unwilling to actually play...yeah...not a fan of lazy and/or incompetent)
It cracks me up that you'd call people that don't invest all their time into a game lazy. Actually, I don't have as much time to game as I used to due to being a productive member of society. So it's because I'm not lazy that I fall behind in a game and may want to catch up by spending money earned by being...a productive member in real life.
All hail the hardcore gamerz!
And in come the justifications...
"I'm a productive member in RL, so it's OK for me to cheat in this game by buying my progress with real cash !"
"I'm rich, so I make my own rules"
No, if you had any morals or honour you'd say: "I wish I had the time to play this game, but my RL time demands make it impossible. I'll have to find a different game."... yeah, riiiiight
What your closing statement says is that you consider the opinions of the other players as irrelevant, because they are lesser members of society. Who cares what a bunch of basement-dwelling nerds thinks anyway ? "Buy your way to success, or STFU you penniless degenerate..."
"How does it affect you if I cheat? I should be allowed to play how I want."
and people seriously believed this crap.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
So if I don't have time to play, I should just not play? See, the thing with hobbies -which games are for the most part- is that it's something you do in your free time, to the best of your abilities. If developers choose to hide content behind several days worth of playing, and I don't have that time, I don't deserve see/play that content?
If you applied that to anything in life, pathos would rule. Why start doing anything if you don't want to apply yourself fully? Want to play some soccer on a sunny sunday afternoon with some mates? Nope, get the f* off the field n00b. Bought shiny shoes to play...cheaters P2W.
Kids want to learn to play basketball...play 12 hours a day or don't even try n00bs. Paid for a summer course learning to be better at basketball...P2W little wannabees.
Real example: I started playing SMITE and paid a few dollars to unlock some gods. I can also unlock gods by playing say 30 hours. 30 hours of playtime equals a month in real life for me. But I should just play without that content until I buckle down, or learn to live with the fact that it wasn't meant for me. Screw having fun, buckle down or gtfo...sound like a day job rather then a hobby like that
So if I don't have time to play, I should just not play?
Well how are you going to actually play if you dont have time in the first place lmao.
EDIT:
What you want to do is just cherry-picking the best things of everything. You have to realize that some stuff need dedication that in return rewards you for said dedication.
There are things where this is totally acceptable and things where it's not. Games are one of those since you de-value (directly or indirectly) the experience of the people around you.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
So if I don't have time to play, I should just not play?
Well how are you going to actually play if you dont have time in the first place lmao.
The implied sentence here would be:
'If I don't have time to play according to made-up, self-imposed rules as stated by the OP, I should just not play'.
I have time to play, if that means sometimes paying a few bucks to see content in a game I'd like to see. Is i a form of instant-gratification? Maybe. Is it 'being lazy'? No.
In light of the 'cheaters vs scrubs' discussion, some reading material:
It cracks me up that you'd call people that don't invest all their time into a game lazy. Actually, I don't have as much time to game as I used to due to being a productive member of society. So it's because I'm not lazy that I fall behind in a game and may want to catch up by spending money earned by being...a productive member in real life.
All hail the hardcore gamerz!
You are right about going too far calling someone lazy for (ab)using rl cash in a game. Still there are planty of other derogatives that we could use.
Let's forget gaming for a second.
Let's stay in real life, let's say you have a good job that pays good money. Infact let's make you a millionare for the sake of example. So you are a millionare who one day decides to become best athlete in the world. But since you are so buys with other thnigs in life you would just spend money to bribe everyone standing on your path and buy number 1 place. Theoreticaly it would be possible but in reality due to obvious reasons this is nigh impossible. Still it's the exact same thing with online games except that environment is completely different where in gaming the mass audience more or less accepts it. Even if you don't use it, you accept it by playing that game.
Ahh, the internet and the mass audience of "individuals who don't care"
This already has changed gaming and it will change it even more in future. One sure thing in life - there are always consequences. And I don't see gaming heading in the best possible way atm, do you?
Comments
Very well put out, I more or less completely agree.
And I have no doubt majority of gamers will never comprehend what you pointed out. And even if they do, the lack of morals and ethichs combined with the gaming addiction combined with our competitive nature will keep thousands if not millions still happily use such systems made by people who are in just to make money and than some more.
Or can we wake up one day and show companies that people actually have all the power if only we knew how to get over personal boundaries?
tried to read all your text and find the point where you actually mention cheating. failed.
if you are able to write that within 2 lines, maybe we can argue here, if you talk that much without saying actually anything at all.... i'd say you are the one cheating.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
what...?
Citizen: Preach your filth elsewhere!
Haha, everything is an ESO reference for me right now....
Anyway, to get to the bottom of this story we have to go back to the beginning (TM@Shoddycast)
Cheating has pretty much ALWAYS been a part of MMORPG's. Dark Sun (As old as it gets) = Duping, code hacking (i.e. turning cheap berries into expensive diamonds), tabbing out to keep from being killed, speed hacking, etc.... Everquest = Looking up quests and item drops on the internet (yes, that is cheating), the blackmarket buying and selling of characters, powerlevelling services, items, macro exploiting (and yes, that is also cheating) etc... and all along the way it was the companies that got the drama when things went wrong.
Someone got beat? It was customer service that had to hear about it.
Someone got a loot that someone else had worked for a year to get to simply because they were the buddy of the guild master and had purchased an already leveled character from someone else? - It was the companies bottom line that suffered.
And on and on.
So one day, early in the history of EQ2, someone got an idea, "If they want to sell their stuff so bad, why not set up a means for them to do so and take a cut of those profits in exchange for insuring that the transactions went as they were supposed to."
The Sony Station Exchange was set up and for the first time something that was considered "Cheating" not only became ok to do, but became sanctioned by the very company that set up the rules that were being circumvented.
Everything that has happened since then, DDO's Free to Play deal, cash shops, Plex, and even EQ2 and WOW's free powerleveled characters (or didn't you realize that was what that was?), has been based off of exploiting what the playerbase of these games will do whether you let them or not. And the playerbase is not going to stop, and so I don't suspect that the companies are going to stop either. And that all goes back to what the guy said earlier in this string, as long as there's something that must be attained there are going to be people who will choose the low road to attain it. Even in a game that can not be won.
(Edit - After reading this back to myself and thinking about all the things that spawned from our cheating, in game maps, quest hubs, that little gold string or arrow pointing us to our quest objectives, the term "I LEARNED IT FROM YOU DAD!!!!!!!" just jumped into my head and I couldn't help but laugh and share. HAHAHA)
You simply don't understand. This is because I am using older and more precise meanings of these words that have been lost through time because of Politically Correct non-sense.
Fear of punishment is synonymous for respect for authority and/or law. We as human beings are supposed to learn this at a very young age. For instance:
Why do you not stick a penny in an electrical outlet? Well, if you do not know the consequences of such action... then you probably would. Most people don't do it for one of 2 reasons:
1. They're afraid of being shocked because someone explained to them what would happen.
2. They're afraid of being shocked... again.
Let's take what I said earlier and plug in these different words:
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. "
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for authority."
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for the law."
"Most people who cheat do so because there IS no respect for the rules. "
If you don't respect authority, the laws, or the rules, then you have no fear of being punished. People who are in jail... whatever they did, at that point in time... they had no fear of breaking the law because there is no respect for the law, and no fear of being punished by the law or the authority which upholds it because there is no respect for the authority which upholds the law.
You can try to argue this every which way from Tuesday... but this is the simply fact of the matter.
"Have a look at the US justice system. Compared to for example European laws, the US courts convict to long sentences and even to death. Yet, the US is the country with the highest incarceration rates worldwide. Their jails are literally bursting. So, the fear of punishment seems not to work that well."
You're not looking at this issue correctly. What I am talking about is a simple fact of life. People fear punishment. They respect the law of the land. They respect the authority which upholds it. They respect it so much, that its almost ingrained into them. That's because it IS ingrained into them.
Your body reacts out of fear of further punishment when it does something you aren't supposed to do. What's the punishment of putting your hand on a hot iron? You get burned. That pain shoots up into your brain and tells you to remove your hand. You do. From that moment on... you know not to touch a hot iron, because it will punish you with pain. You now have respect for a hot iron. That hot iron has authority over your otherwise normalized state of mind and well being. And if you ever again attempt to question that authority... it will burn you again and again and again until you get it in your head that you shouldn't touch it.
Some people build up a resistance and are able to go longer. This has a lot to do with people who get out of jail and continue to break the law. But it also brings up the question of why they didn't know what they were doing was wrong in the first place.
My point is... the fact that there are so many people in the entire world who are NOT in jail and serving sentences is proof that what I am talking about is true. Have you ever been to jail? No? Why not? Because it sucks. And a normal person should make it a life goal to never have to go.
The fact that the US has so many people in jail is proof that there is something else causing some problems with the way things should normally and naturally go.
Now... I would love to go into this with you further, but I've already gone into it a little deeper than I originally intended to. All I can say to further this context is that fear and terror are two completely different things. Most people will wrongly associate fear and terror as the same thing. They are not. Fear is a functional psychological fail-safe that is synonymous with respect. Terror is a word that describes complete and utter dysfunctional shut-down of all rational, reasonable, and logical faculties.
What do I mean?
When you cannot respond to a dangerous situation because you are in total mental shutdown of the reality - you are in terror.
When you can respond to a dangerous situation and are able to take action by virtue of the fact that you identify that there is danger.... then that is fear. Even if you react out of shear muscle memory - that is still fear, as it is completely reasonable for a person to remove themselves from a dangerous situation.
It is not reasonable for a person to not react to a dangerous situation. This is the difference. One leaves you functional. The other leaves you helpless.
Step 1: Understand that cheating can never be prevented at a 100% rate.
I never said anything about prevention. That's entirely different conversation. But even still, to understand that cheating even exists is to understand that you have a respect for the law and authority.
Step 2: As a developer, create easy-to-use instruments to report cheaters. (ESOs mail system for example is good)
Reporting cheaters is a form of punishment. Just saying....
Step 3: Create a healthy community and continously advertize to report suspicious players.
You can't create a healthy community without punishing people who are unhealthy - cheaters.
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
This is more punishment.
Step 5: Give feedback to the player base. For example press releases with total numbers of banned cheaters.
This does 3 things. One, it is a reward for people who are respecting the law and the authority which upholds it. Two, it is establishing to everyone who is the authority in the first place, what the law says, and the punishment that will be given if the law is broken. And three, allows the people who already respect the law to put their trust in the authority which upholds it.
Like I said... there's a lot I could say about this stuff.... but I don't think you're going to understand any of it if you can't understand even the simple premise I wrote earlier. So... whatev - gg, bro!
So you can't buy the gold with real money then buy the best legendary weapons in the game off the auction house with that RMT gold? How about buying indestructible harvesting tools? What if I want to earn a Quaggan backpack in-game? I mean we all know winning at Guild Wars 2 is about having a Quaggan backpack.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Pretty much my first thought.
Sad how something that could have been a legitimate discussion about cheating gets bogged down by an endless rant. I didn't read it all the way through just to see if OP blames Obamacare for ruining for favorite MMO.
i suspect the OP is a Chinese hacker selling teleport and speed hacks, trying to muddy the water and poison the well of a potentially fruitful discussion. /baseless_speculations
It's not so much the devs changing the rules that bothers me, it's that RMTers used to have to hide their gold purchases from most other payers lest they be mercilessly mocked for it.
I don't like the acceptance of using your wallet to get an advantage over those who don't in a game, especially an advantage that can translate to group content, particularly PvP content. No matter what devs say, this is not okay and never will be to me, beyond some very limited things such as bag and bank slots, and I would have been happier not to have that for sale, either.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
*sigh*
The problem isn't if you broke a rule or not. The problem is you are not identifying that there is even a rule in the first place. If you can't identify the rules within your own mind, or are in some way trying to circumvent the rules by technicality... then you are already morally and ethically bankrupt.
If you were not morally or ethically bankrupt... you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place.
It is completely relevant.
The OP is talking about item malls in MMOs.
Are you saying that since the developers have not explicitly stated the items are legal gameplay that there is some kind of grey area there?
The sigh and insults are cute and all, but let's try to stay on topic, okay?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I choose to read that literally
Seriously, though, OP has a point. Who would want to play...say...Civilization with someone who uses cheat codes to give themselves modest gains?
"Hey guys, you mind if I use a code to give myself an extra hoplite to fend off these barbarians? It's not like it would affect the game much. I even promise to disband the unit once the barbarians are dead."
Yeah, no...Sometimes people like using cheat codes in their games, and that's okay. But the default is not to. Why is it accepted that it should be different for MMOs? No, it isn't a good enough answer that "the game has to be monetized or there would be no game." Clearly there's a cut-off whereby the p2w gets so obnoxious that the game fails because people refuse to accept it.
Why isn't that cut-off any cheating at all?
I'm not trying to be insulting or cute. I was frustrated with speaking to you because I don't even know what you are talking about, and I was fatigued to have to reiterate what I had already written.
My original response was to the person who asked the question
"Is it cheating if everyone can do it without fear of being punished?"
I don't know how legitimate Item Malls can even be confused with cheating in the first place. I presumed he was asking about cheaters in general. I answered that question.
Slow your roll, dude.
I had to google that one.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Of course Robokapp is correct: PLEX can not be converted to ISK, but I have not said that the PLEX is converted.
I'm not sure if my writing is too hard to understand, but with a little thinking it should become obvious that the term conversion applies to the currency. The currency is converted. Real Money to ISK.
The PLEX is just the instrument to achieve the conversion.
Yes and no.
Owning items or currency in an MMO enables you to become a cheater or item/gold seller. If you finally become a cheater, item/gold seller is a totally different thing.
The PLEX system or equal systems do one thing. They transform game time, something that usually is bound to an account, into a moveable and tradeable item. The problem is that this freedom not only has got advantages. It has a big downside, because it enables botters to easily reconvert the currency from ISK to real money or to let their bots run and run and run to farm more ISK that then is sold for real money.
It is a huge money laundry and the PLEX sales on ebay already seem to outnumber the ISK sales. I assume being the experienced PLEX article author you are, you already know that.
That's east coast slang if that helps. I'll even go so far as to say Delmarva/DC area.
It cracks me up that you'd call people that don't invest all their time into a game lazy. Actually, I don't have as much time to game as I used to due to being a productive member of society. So it's because I'm not lazy that I fall behind in a game and may want to catch up by spending money earned by being...a productive member in real life.
All hail the hardcore gamerz!
East coast slang though it may have originated... I'm nowhere near that area.
I have the feeling you do not understand the terms you are using.
1) Punishment: Is an act of penalizing someone for an action that is considered wrong by society standards.
A child getting shocked by sticking a penny in an electrical outlet is not punished. It experiences that the human body can act as conductor. The electric outlet does not punish the child. It simply follows physics. Same goes for your vibrant hot iron example. Simple physics.
2) Respect: Fear is an unpleasant emotion caused by the threat of danger, pain, or harm.
Respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. Logic conclusion: Something that is considered an unpleasant emotion can never induce respect. Respect for laws and authority comes because we accept certain society standards and consider them right. It is not right to steal. It is not right to kill. It is not right to lie. It is not right to cheat. Respecting these society standards is something parents teach their children. So, you could probably say that respect for authority is something that emerges from education and admiration.
3) "Reporting cheaters is a form of punishment. Just saying...."
Erm nope. To report means to give a spoken or written account of something that one has observed, heard, done, or investigated. Nothing else. If the reported person gets punished is up to the receptor of the report.
Hopefully this helps to understand what respect or punishment means.
And with all the respect. I'm not your bro.
**definitions of the terms respect, punishment, respect have been taken out of the Oxford English Dictionary.
"Chump don't want no help, chump don't get da help!" (Barbara Billingsly - Airplane 1980)
And that my friends is called the perfect set up, pass, and reception.
And in come the justifications...
"I'm a productive member in RL, so it's OK for me to cheat in this game by buying my progress with real cash !"
"I'm rich, so I make my own rules"
No, if you had any morals or honour you'd say: "I wish I had the time to play this game, but my RL time demands make it impossible. I'll have to find a different game."... yeah, riiiiight
What your closing statement says is that you consider the opinions of the other players as irrelevant, because they are lesser members of society. Who cares what a bunch of basement-dwelling nerds thinks anyway ? "Buy your way to success, or STFU you penniless degenerate..."
Cheating became OK when some idiots said:
"How does it affect you if I cheat? I should be allowed to play how I want."
and people seriously believed this crap.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
So if I don't have time to play, I should just not play? See, the thing with hobbies -which games are for the most part- is that it's something you do in your free time, to the best of your abilities. If developers choose to hide content behind several days worth of playing, and I don't have that time, I don't deserve see/play that content?
If you applied that to anything in life, pathos would rule. Why start doing anything if you don't want to apply yourself fully? Want to play some soccer on a sunny sunday afternoon with some mates? Nope, get the f* off the field n00b. Bought shiny shoes to play...cheaters P2W.
Kids want to learn to play basketball...play 12 hours a day or don't even try n00bs. Paid for a summer course learning to be better at basketball...P2W little wannabees.
Real example: I started playing SMITE and paid a few dollars to unlock some gods. I can also unlock gods by playing say 30 hours. 30 hours of playtime equals a month in real life for me. But I should just play without that content until I buckle down, or learn to live with the fact that it wasn't meant for me. Screw having fun, buckle down or gtfo...sound like a day job rather then a hobby like that
Well how are you going to actually play if you dont have time in the first place lmao.
EDIT:
What you want to do is just cherry-picking the best things of everything. You have to realize that some stuff need dedication that in return rewards you for said dedication.
There are things where this is totally acceptable and things where it's not. Games are one of those since you de-value (directly or indirectly) the experience of the people around you.
Winning a discussion is not what it's about. If you could pass insight to someone or learn something from it in return - noone can really loose, can they?
The implied sentence here would be:
'If I don't have time to play according to made-up, self-imposed rules as stated by the OP, I should just not play'.
I have time to play, if that means sometimes paying a few bucks to see content in a game I'd like to see. Is i a form of instant-gratification? Maybe. Is it 'being lazy'? No.
In light of the 'cheaters vs scrubs' discussion, some reading material:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
You are right about going too far calling someone lazy for (ab)using rl cash in a game. Still there are planty of other derogatives that we could use.
Let's forget gaming for a second.
Let's stay in real life, let's say you have a good job that pays good money. Infact let's make you a millionare for the sake of example. So you are a millionare who one day decides to become best athlete in the world. But since you are so buys with other thnigs in life you would just spend money to bribe everyone standing on your path and buy number 1 place. Theoreticaly it would be possible but in reality due to obvious reasons this is nigh impossible. Still it's the exact same thing with online games except that environment is completely different where in gaming the mass audience more or less accepts it. Even if you don't use it, you accept it by playing that game.
Ahh, the internet and the mass audience of "individuals who don't care"
This already has changed gaming and it will change it even more in future. One sure thing in life - there are always consequences. And I don't see gaming heading in the best possible way atm, do you?