It seems fairly obvious from this thread (I don't really know much about Hex, but now I kind of want to) that this is just a stunt to try to get Cryptozoic to go under from legal fees because they're going to put out a better game than WotC did.
Originally posted by Ginaz For people who are saying Hex is too similar to Magic let me say this again because you obviously didn't read my earlier post. You CAN NOT copyright an idea. Copyright laws allow for similar games to be made. Having 5 coloured resources? That's an idea. Having each player with 20 hp's? That's an idea, too.
That's more of a set of rules than an idea.
How do you come up with the rules of a game in the first place?
The same way Marconi came up with the radio and Watt came up came up with his steam engine.. I see what you are trying to do, but there is a difference between "mere" ideas, expressions of ideas (copyright: e.g. Star Wars) and patents such as teflon.As long as the courts agree that your copyright is tangible and distinctive you have a strong case.
Originally posted by Ginaz For people who are saying Hex is too similar to Magic let me say this again because you obviously didn't read my earlier post. You CAN NOT copyright an idea. Copyright laws allow for similar games to be made. Having 5 coloured resources? That's an idea. Having each player with 20 hp's? That's an idea, too.
That's more of a set of rules than an idea.
How do you come up with the rules of a game in the first place?
The same way Marconi came up with the radio and Watt came up came up with his steam engine.. I see what you are trying to do, but there is a difference between "mere" ideas, expressions of ideas (copyright: e.g. Star Wars) and patents such as teflon.As long as the courts agree that your copyright is tangible and distinctive you have a strong case.
I don't feel like writing it again, so please re-read my original post.
"Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
BTW, its not like magic didn't copy features from other games. Don't believe me? Just ask Magic's creator, Richard Garfield.
"Games evolve. New ones take the most loved features of earlier games and add original characteristics. The creation of Magic: The Gathering is a case in point.
Though there are about a dozen games that have directly influenced Magic in one way or another, the game's most influential ancestor is a game for which I have no end of respect: Cosmic Encounter, originally published by Eon Products."
Originally posted by Ginaz For people who are saying Hex is too similar to Magic let me say this again because you obviously didn't read my earlier post. You CAN NOT copyright an idea. Copyright laws allow for similar games to be made. Having 5 coloured resources? That's an idea. Having each player with 20 hp's? That's an idea, too.
That's more of a set of rules than an idea.
How do you come up with the rules of a game in the first place?
The same way Marconi came up with the radio and Watt came up came up with his steam engine.. I see what you are trying to do, but there is a difference between "mere" ideas, expressions of ideas (copyright: e.g. Star Wars) and patents such as teflon.As long as the courts agree that your copyright is tangible and distinctive you have a strong case.
I don't feel like writing it again, so please re-read my original post.
"Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that hasbro's case is a bit sketchy. However, WotC are arguing that the games are so similar that it directly infringes on their copyright and have cited the similarities of the mechanics.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that hasbro's case is a bit sketchy. However, WotC are arguing that the games are so similar that it directly infringes on their copyright and have cited the similarities of the mechanics.
If we allow this argument any game can be sued by the first game created in its gerne. Just take mmos and see how much didnt change
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that hasbro's case is a bit sketchy. However, WotC are arguing that the games are so similar that it directly infringes on their copyright and have cited the similarities of the mechanics.
If we allow this argument any game can be sued by the first game created in its gerne. Just take mmos and see how much didnt change
I pretty much agree, many of the mechanics are genre defining rather than exclusive to MTG. They also claim that both games look very similar, which I personally don't agree with, i think they look very different. The artwork and font and overall design of MTG is far superior but they've had years to get it right. Hex has a much more sci-fi feel about it. Personally, I don't think Wizards have a strong case but I'll admit I'm biased towards Hex as a backer.
So I was playing Rock Band 3 with my son. Then we switched to Guitar Hero World tour (we like some songs not available on the other platform) yea these games don't hate.
This got me thinking 2 games could not be more alike. If this is possible then MTG doesn't have a leg to stand on against Hex.
Did I miss the lawsuits about those games back in the day? That would seem to have set the precedence for similarity and whats allowed game wise.
Non game wise you could argue the 2 are as alike as coke and pepsi , <shrug>
Ok to make this simpler how exactly is Hex DIFFERENT from MTG ? Give me 10 points which Hex has which MTG doesnt ...
Ok I'll Bite. This is off the top of my head and what I know of so far.
1) Dungeons
2) Champions
3) Gear for said champions
4) Cards that level permanently
5) Card sockets
6) Created characters
7) Guilds
8) Auction house for trading (I know you could do this in MTG by trading with friends or at shops but it is still different in that this creates and economy).
9) Exploration
10) Co op
I'll stop there. To put it bluntly, HEX will offer a lot of PVE game-play that no other game has and that is where a lot of the differences can be found. I have played many TCG's like WoW TCG, Warcry, Warlord, Yugio, Naruto, and L5R that share many similarities with MtG but each stood out enough on its own to overlook the similarities. I feel Hex does as well aside from the obvious stuff like the health pool, tapping of cards (which just about every TCG that I have played does), resource pools, and the fact that the colors also follw MTG (red = direct damage, black = death, ect). I was a fan of MtG for years and still play it to this day with my close friends, but they live in another state so Hex will offer us something that is similar enough that we enjoy it without being so close that we have that been there done that feeling.
Then hopefully they win as long as they can prove that there is enough difference between the two games then Cryptozoic should win.
However I stand by my position that TWoTC have the right to present this case there is enough details copied to justify their action.
You should look at vids of the gameplay etc.. It is basically the same game except some name change and a few twist to it.
But in the end it is the same game. Thats why they are doing this. It is there right in this case. I would be mad at the dev that actually created this. Not the other way around.
Yet, in the US at least, you cannot copyright game mechanics. Anyone could release a game that plays exactly like Monopoly.
I don't think I'd ever read the patent before. I just love the way they try to make it as broad as possible while limiting it just enough to get through - "it's a card game but may be played using other components", "it should involve trading and pre-constructing resources but doesn't have to", etc, etc.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
You should look at vids of the gameplay etc.. It is basically the same game except some name change and a few twist to it.
But in the end it is the same game. Thats why they are doing this. It is there right in this case. I would be mad at the dev that actually created this. Not the other way around.
Yet, in the US at least, you cannot copyright game mechanics. Anyone could release a game that plays exactly like Monopoly.
You can not copyright game mechanics but you can patent them (as Sector13 linked) and trademark them (ever wonder why no other company has ever used the term "tap"? WotC trademarked the term for use in card games).
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
You should look at vids of the gameplay etc.. It is basically the same game except some name change and a few twist to it.
But in the end it is the same game. Thats why they are doing this. It is there right in this case. I would be mad at the dev that actually created this. Not the other way around.
Ok, and why are they not sueing Blizzard over Hearthstone? Hearthstone is a complete MTG clone with a Warcraft skin on it.
Activision / Blizzard most likely got permission to use the systems from MTG. Cryptozoic knew they were violating IP law .
2) in the law of patents (protected inventions), and copyrights (protected writings or graphics), the improper use of a patent, writing, graphic or trademark without permission, without notice, and especially without contracting for payment of a royalty. Even though the infringement may be accidental (an inventor thinks he is the first to develop the widget although someone else has a patent), the party infringing is responsible to pay the original patent or copyright owner substantial damages, which can be the normal royalty or as much as the infringers' accumulated gross profits.
Lawsuits like this are pretty dangerous, after all are plenty of online games very similar to earlier ones..
I mean almost all MMO worlds are very similar to Forgotten realms which itself is very similar to Middle earth... Not to mention that 99% of all MMOs uses mechanics that was invented for Meridian 59.
Then again, I am not so sure that it would be bad for us if the devs actually had to invent their own stuff instead of copy paste from others. HEX is indeed very similar to Magic and fantasy MMO might be a lot more interesting if the devs actually had to hire on authors and similar to create never before seen worlds.
2) in the law of patents (protected inventions), and copyrights (protected writings or graphics), the improper use of a patent, writing, graphic or trademark without permission, without notice, and especially without contracting for payment of a royalty. Even though the infringement may be accidental (an inventor thinks he is the first to develop the widget although someone else has a patent), the party infringing is responsible to pay the original patent or copyright owner substantial damages, which can be the normal royalty or as much as the infringers' accumulated gross profits.
Another possibility is that they are starting with suing a smaller company with less money so the get a ruling, and if that works they might sue all Mtg copies (like Legends of Norrath, Heartstone and similar games).
Starting an all out war would be very costly if they loose but once they have a ruling things are very different.
They won't sue Blizzard because Blizzard will beat the everloving hell out of WotC. They're a mti-billion dollar corporation that has more than enough resources to ruin someone's day.
Originally posted by Akuzimo They won't sue Blizzard because Blizzard will beat the everloving hell out of WotC. They're a mti-billion dollar corporation that has more than enough resources to ruin someone's day.
Originally posted by FlawSGI Loving the direction of the game and there are so many differences that labeling it a clone is inaccurate. However, I do see enough similarities between the two games that WOTC may feel they have a legal leg to stand on.
If the lawyers even suspect that there MIGHT be intellectual infringement, it's their obligation to pursue this and let the courts decide. WotC is their client and that's their job, to protect their client's property. The courts might decide against them. Or not. Don't assume that they are suing because they know they will win , or because they know that it is, in fact infringement. It's the court's job to determine that, not the lawyer.
I have a bit of a problem with trying to claim infringement on very broad concepts. The patent system is ridiculous. The patent fights between Apple and Samsung showed just how stupid they can get.
I played magic for a long time. Here's the problem. Take any one game concept and try to explain how it's not a very generic thing. Tapping is just making use of a card that's been placed, and visually indicating you are doing so. What game doesn't do that in some form? 5 colors. Ok, so now no one can use 5 different factions or elements or anything? Attacking. Um... yeah things have to attack, block, deal damage, heal, etc.
Break down MTG into individual mechanics, and they are either obvious necessity or generic concepts.
It is no doubt going to be a difficult case to argue /win.
But I hope WTOC win, Their game has been basically copied with a few transparent name changes.
If a small indie developer /kickstarter had invented a new game and WOTC just changed the names and ripped it off them their would be uproar on these boards!
It is no doubt going to be a difficult case to argue /win.
But I hope WTOC win, Their game has been basically copied with a few transparent name changes.
If a small indie developer /kickstarter had invented a new game and WOTC just changed the names and ripped it off them their would be uproar on these boards!
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about I played both games and i'm a kickstarter backer for HEX and yes offcourse there are similarities but the game is way more then magic is and will be !!!
Can you equip your card with gear ?
Can you raid ?
Can you do instances ?
Can you group ?
..... guess not so stop making things up that arent there !!!
Comments
The same way Marconi came up with the radio and Watt came up came up with his steam engine.. I see what you are trying to do, but there is a difference between "mere" ideas, expressions of ideas (copyright: e.g. Star Wars) and patents such as teflon.As long as the courts agree that your copyright is tangible and distinctive you have a strong case.
I don't feel like writing it again, so please re-read my original post.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6329600#6329600
"Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
BTW, its not like magic didn't copy features from other games. Don't believe me? Just ask Magic's creator, Richard Garfield.
"Games evolve. New ones take the most loved features of earlier games and add original characteristics. The creation of Magic: The Gathering is a case in point.
Though there are about a dozen games that have directly influenced Magic in one way or another, the game's most influential ancestor is a game for which I have no end of respect: Cosmic Encounter, originally published by Eon Products."
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/238b
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that hasbro's case is a bit sketchy. However, WotC are arguing that the games are so similar that it directly infringes on their copyright and have cited the similarities of the mechanics.
If we allow this argument any game can be sued by the first game created in its gerne. Just take mmos and see how much didnt change
Pi*1337/100 = 42
I pretty much agree, many of the mechanics are genre defining rather than exclusive to MTG. They also claim that both games look very similar, which I personally don't agree with, i think they look very different. The artwork and font and overall design of MTG is far superior but they've had years to get it right. Hex has a much more sci-fi feel about it. Personally, I don't think Wizards have a strong case but I'll admit I'm biased towards Hex as a backer.
So I was playing Rock Band 3 with my son. Then we switched to Guitar Hero World tour (we like some songs not available on the other platform) yea these games don't hate.
This got me thinking 2 games could not be more alike. If this is possible then MTG doesn't have a leg to stand on against Hex.
Did I miss the lawsuits about those games back in the day? That would seem to have set the precedence for similarity and whats allowed game wise.
Non game wise you could argue the 2 are as alike as coke and pepsi , <shrug>
Just my 2 more cents
Z.
Then hopefully they win as long as they can prove that there is enough difference between the two games then Cryptozoic should win.
However I stand by my position that TWoTC have the right to present this case there is enough details copied to justify their action.
Yet, in the US at least, you cannot copyright game mechanics. Anyone could release a game that plays exactly like Monopoly.
I don't think I'd ever read the patent before. I just love the way they try to make it as broad as possible while limiting it just enough to get through - "it's a card game but may be played using other components", "it should involve trading and pre-constructing resources but doesn't have to", etc, etc.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
You can not copyright game mechanics but you can patent them (as Sector13 linked) and trademark them (ever wonder why no other company has ever used the term "tap"? WotC trademarked the term for use in card games).
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
Activision / Blizzard most likely got permission to use the systems from MTG. Cryptozoic knew they were violating IP law .
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/infringement
2) in the law of patents (protected inventions), and copyrights (protected writings or graphics), the improper use of a patent, writing, graphic or trademark without permission, without notice, and especially without contracting for payment of a royalty. Even though the infringement may be accidental (an inventor thinks he is the first to develop the widget although someone else has a patent), the party infringing is responsible to pay the original patent or copyright owner substantial damages, which can be the normal royalty or as much as the infringers' accumulated gross profits.
Lawsuits like this are pretty dangerous, after all are plenty of online games very similar to earlier ones..
I mean almost all MMO worlds are very similar to Forgotten realms which itself is very similar to Middle earth... Not to mention that 99% of all MMOs uses mechanics that was invented for Meridian 59.
Then again, I am not so sure that it would be bad for us if the devs actually had to invent their own stuff instead of copy paste from others. HEX is indeed very similar to Magic and fantasy MMO might be a lot more interesting if the devs actually had to hire on authors and similar to create never before seen worlds.
Another possibility is that they are starting with suing a smaller company with less money so the get a ruling, and if that works they might sue all Mtg copies (like Legends of Norrath, Heartstone and similar games).
Starting an all out war would be very costly if they loose but once they have a ruling things are very different.
and Hasbro isn't?
I have a bit of a problem with trying to claim infringement on very broad concepts. The patent system is ridiculous. The patent fights between Apple and Samsung showed just how stupid they can get.
I played magic for a long time. Here's the problem. Take any one game concept and try to explain how it's not a very generic thing. Tapping is just making use of a card that's been placed, and visually indicating you are doing so. What game doesn't do that in some form? 5 colors. Ok, so now no one can use 5 different factions or elements or anything? Attacking. Um... yeah things have to attack, block, deal damage, heal, etc.
Break down MTG into individual mechanics, and they are either obvious necessity or generic concepts.
It is no doubt going to be a difficult case to argue /win.
But I hope WTOC win, Their game has been basically copied with a few transparent name changes.
If a small indie developer /kickstarter had invented a new game and WOTC just changed the names and ripped it off them their would be uproar on these boards!
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about I played both games and i'm a kickstarter backer for HEX and yes offcourse there are similarities but the game is way more then magic is and will be !!!
Can you equip your card with gear ?
Can you raid ?
Can you do instances ?
Can you group ?
..... guess not so stop making things up that arent there !!!