Originally posted by nilden It boggles my mind how something as fundamental as making sure you can always group to do content is something some MMOs screw up. MMORPGs should never force you to solo. They should never break up groups forcing people to do solo instances. How can any MMO screw up the simple basic design of playing to it's strengths by encouraging grouping?
Because it isn't basic design. It's an assumption that has become dogma in the minds of certain MMO gamers that don't know anything outside of EQ/WOW gameplay. The further assumption that lack of grouping means 'forced solo' indicates that some players are so entrenched in this thinking that explaining to them development or game design along any other path than the EQ/WOW gameplay is almost pointless.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by nilden It boggles my mind how something as fundamental as making sure you can always group to do content is something some MMOs screw up. MMORPGs should never force you to solo. They should never break up groups forcing people to do solo instances. How can any MMO screw up the simple basic design of playing to it's strengths by encouraging grouping?
Because it isn't basic design. It's an assumption that has become dogma in the minds of certain MMO gamers that don't know anything outside of EQ/WOW gameplay. The further assumption that lack of grouping means 'forced solo' indicates that some players are so entrenched in this thinking that explaining to them development or game design along any other path than the EQ/WOW gameplay is almost pointless.
[mod edit]
They could might as well know full well all the different playstyles but still prefer the style they are playing right now.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Wow often I think that me and the other people on these boards are playing completely different games as the things they say see and do are completely the opposite of what I see say and do
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
You can't really say they are aware of other styles but just prefer theirs when they say they are forced to do it. To me that screens of a lack of awareness especially of their own choices and cognitive bias.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by nilden It boggles my mind how something as fundamental as making sure you can always group to do content is something some MMOs screw up. MMORPGs should never force you to solo. They should never break up groups forcing people to do solo instances. How can any MMO screw up the simple basic design of playing to it's strengths by encouraging grouping?
Because it isn't basic design. It's an assumption that has become dogma in the minds of certain MMO gamers that don't know anything outside of EQ/WOW gameplay. The further assumption that lack of grouping means 'forced solo' indicates that some players are so entrenched in this thinking that explaining to them development or game design along any other path than the EQ/WOW gameplay is almost pointless.
[mod edit]
They could might as well know full well all the different playstyles but still prefer the style they are playing right now.
You're talking about preference. That is completely different from what nilden stated, which is that the path he presents is 'fundamental', 'simple basic design' and 'MMORPG Design 101'. Any other path is 'screwing up' because grouping is something he feels the dev should 'always' focus on.
Does it work for certain MMOs? Definitely.Not only does it work, but it is a major strength of most trinity-based, combat-centric MMOs(ex: EQ and WOW).
Should every MMO do that? No. Is it MMO Design 101? Absolutely not, and knowing that it absolutely isn't probably is MMO Design 101.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The Secret World, Final Fantasy 14 and Elder Scrolls Online all do it.
I'm not saying people should not be able to solo but any MMORPG worth it's salt should always encourage grouping.
Then you want to say it's my bias and grouping is not basic MMORPG design. There is no reason to force players to solo. EVER. A player should never have to say "we can't group to do this quest." and people are saying it isn't MMORPG design 101.
I weep tears of agony when stating that grouping should always be encouraged is met with such disdain. The Guild Wars 2 example is awesome because even for the personal story solo stuff you can still bring friends if you want same with SWTOR. This whole thread is just depressing to me seeing how many people don't even understand what I'm talking about and then shrugging off grouping as something that isn't a fundamental design. I can only imagine how utter garbage a MMO with no grouping would be. Hey since grouping isn't fundamental design I'm sure there are MMORPGs with no grouping. Gotta be one right? /sigh
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
You're talking about preference. That is completely different from what nilden stated, which is that the path he presents is 'fundamental', 'simple basic design' and 'MMORPG Design 101'. Any other path is 'screwing up' because grouping is something he feels the dev should 'always' focus on.
Does it work for certain MMOs? Definitely.Not only does it work, but it is a major strength of most trinity-based, combat-centric MMOs(ex: EQ and WOW).
Should every MMO do that? No. Is it MMO Design 101? Absolutely not, and knowing that it absolutely isn't probably is MMO Design 101.
There is no "MMORPG Design 101". Not unless you want to mimic whatever everyone else has already done. Such narrow-mindedness is a hindrance to creativity.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Well I get where you are coming from OP, I think the whole world needs to be a harsh place, and very challenging, so that people cant just go out get to max level and never group.
Not saying all MMO's should be this way, but there should be a couple, and unlike what many say, I believe it would attract a lot of players, I know so many people who have left MMO's due to it being way to easy.
Give us at least a couple of AAA MMO's with a challenging open world please and thank you.
Originally posted by nilden It boggles my mind how something as fundamental as making sure you can always group to do content is something some MMOs screw up. MMORPGs should never force you to solo. They should never break up groups forcing people to do solo instances. How can any MMO screw up the simple basic design of playing to it's strengths by encouraging grouping?
incorrect.
Much like in real life some people are more useful (and perfer) contributing to the whole in solitude. The problem is so called AAA MMOs do not implement game mechanics well to allow for this. Indies typically do.
For example, mining and crafting to build up stock piles for a great war.
So you think it's good design to force people to solo and break up groups?
I don't think these games have forced solo or forced grouping.
I feel people into games force themself to those things and not the other way around.
For me it's actually other people that are mainly forcing me to solo more then I did in the old. People tend to play these type of games like jobs, they need better rewards else they feel it's not worth it. What happend to people just having fun in this genre to play how they want. That is the main problem this genre is facing and it's not because of these games anymore.
The Secret World, Final Fantasy 14 and Elder Scrolls Online all do it.
I'm not saying people should not be able to solo but any MMORPG worth it's salt should always encourage grouping.
Then you want to say it's my bias and grouping is not basic MMORPG design. There is no reason to force players to solo. EVER. A player should never have to say "we can't group to do this quest." and people are saying it isn't MMORPG design 101.
I weep tears of agony when stating that grouping should always be encouraged is met with such disdain. The Guild Wars 2 example is awesome because even for the personal story solo stuff you can still bring friends if you want same with SWTOR. This whole thread is just depressing to me seeing how many people don't even understand what I'm talking about and then shrugging off grouping as something that isn't a fundamental design. I can only imagine how utter garbage a MMO with no grouping would be. Hey since grouping isn't fundamental design I'm sure there are MMORPGs with no grouping. Gotta be one right? /sigh
Grouping is already encouraged in every game apart from very few examples. It gets you the best gear, the best income, the best XP rate... Unless you mean there should be artificial buffs etc. for grouping, I don't know what you're talking about.
If you want MMORPGs to have absolutely no solo-only content, why don't you simply say so?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The Secret World, Final Fantasy 14 and Elder Scrolls Online all do it.
I'm not saying people should not be able to solo but any MMORPG worth it's salt should always encourage grouping.
Then you want to say it's my bias and grouping is not basic MMORPG design. There is no reason to force players to solo. EVER. A player should never have to say "we can't group to do this quest." and people are saying it isn't MMORPG design 101.
I weep tears of agony when stating that grouping should always be encouraged is met with such disdain. The Guild Wars 2 example is awesome because even for the personal story solo stuff you can still bring friends if you want same with SWTOR. This whole thread is just depressing to me seeing how many people don't even understand what I'm talking about and then shrugging off grouping as something that isn't a fundamental design. I can only imagine how utter garbage a MMO with no grouping would be. Hey since grouping isn't fundamental design I'm sure there are MMORPGs with no grouping. Gotta be one right? /sigh
Other than it's what you think, what makes you think this is right? If an MMORPG doesn't do this, what are the consequences?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think in an MMO all content should have the option that it can be done with groups. Even personal storylines etc. That not to say that there should be forced grouping or anything. I think group and social content should always be the bread and butter of MMOs, it is the only thing that sets them apart from all other games. Otherwise we would all just play multiplayers and single player games. Without the social and group centric content MMOs are just another game, but with latency issues.
A group-centric MMO is good in theory, but it always has a lingering question tied to it...
...What is the game you are going to give to the guy who cannot find a group, or the guy who no group will take?
It's a hard question, and one that the games don't have the ability to rectify easily. Because all you can grant is a game to a consumer. You can't grant them a group to play the game with. I have found that the more a game relies upon groups and guilds to organize player activity, the more guilds and groups become exclusive affairs, where the general player is screened out.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I'm thinking the OP got his butt handed to him in the single player only personal story quests and is raging because he couldn't call in his friends for backup.
Debatable whether MMOS should have this type of content, but in the case of ESO they were trying to provide some personal story to go with the MMO part.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A group-centric MMO is good in theory, but it always has a lingering question tied to it...
...What is the game you are going to give to the guy who cannot find a group, or the guy who no group will take?
It's a hard question, and one that the games don't have the ability to rectify easily. Because all you can grant is a game to a consumer. You can't grant them a group to play the game with. I have found that the more a game relies upon groups and guilds to organize player activity, the more guilds and groups become exclusive affairs, where the general player is screened out.
I don't believe it is a zero sum game. Dungeons, raids, PvP is and other social content always should be group centric. But it should balanced by solo content such as questing, crafting and personal dungeons etc. This doesn't necessarily mean dumbing the game down, but recognizing that that it takes all sorts to make a successful and vibrant MMO.
Originally posted by Flyte27 I was always more of a soloer. Even in my UO and EQ days. I still feel that soloing is too easy. It's already easier to play alone then to have to worry about what someone else wants or is doing. On top of that the MMOs usually make you go out of you way to group during the leveling process because of all the quests and trying to match them up with someone else. They add even more insult to injury by giving solo players just as good or very close to as good loot. Grouping should reward you a lot more then soloing IMO. I still wouldn't do it much, but it makes sense.
Doesn't make any sense to me. You either reward all play styles or you don't make a homogenized game. It is insulting to any gamer to have a game proclaim they cater to you only to turn around and primarily reward only certain play styles or specific content.
Grouping is but one single social system. There are many different ways to encourage socializing aside from grouping that are far less limiting on how a player wants to play the game.
Not saying all MMO's should be this way, but there should be a couple, and unlike what many say, I believe it would attract a lot of players, I know so many people who have left MMO's due to it being way to easy.
As if your anecdotal observations are data.
I bet there is more qqing about how hard CATA heoric dungeons are then people who leave because the game is too easy.
Originally posted by Kyleran I used to be in the grouping camp long ago but realize now I want nothing to do with most of today's player base.
I'm grateful for the mostly solo content these days that lets me group only when I choose.
I am there with you...but not in a group.
City of Heroes was a game where grouping and soloing were easily done. Having instances scale to group size allowed it to be fun and interesting. I wish more games would look at that game for inspiration on how to allow solo and teamwork. Sidekicking/mentoring and difficulty sliders were an added benefit to their approach.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Maybe if more people were doing group content for the group experience it would be encouraged. The truth is, most are just trying to power game the content and reduce grind or increase grind efficiency. The LFG factor is just a barrier for people who log in for shorter durations and game sessions.
You're talking about preference. That is completely different from what nilden stated, which is that the path he presents is 'fundamental', 'simple basic design' and 'MMORPG Design 101'. Any other path is 'screwing up' because grouping is something he feels the dev should 'always' focus on.
Does it work for certain MMOs? Definitely.Not only does it work, but it is a major strength of most trinity-based, combat-centric MMOs(ex: EQ and WOW).
Should every MMO do that? No. Is it MMO Design 101? Absolutely not, and knowing that it absolutely isn't probably is MMO Design 101.
There is no "MMORPG Design 101". Not unless you want to mimic whatever everyone else has already done. Such narrow-mindedness is a hindrance to creativity.
Thank you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMORPG Design 100 - Balance & Options. You need both grouping and solo content. You need to make sure either could get the player where they want to be - level, skill, or item obtain. Let me add:
MMORPG Design 99 - Encourage Guilds & Community. Players need a small group within the big group of people they jive with for support.
Comments
Because it isn't basic design. It's an assumption that has become dogma in the minds of certain MMO gamers that don't know anything outside of EQ/WOW gameplay. The further assumption that lack of grouping means 'forced solo' indicates that some players are so entrenched in this thinking that explaining to them development or game design along any other path than the EQ/WOW gameplay is almost pointless.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
[mod edit]
They could might as well know full well all the different playstyles but still prefer the style they are playing right now.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
None of the ones I've played have done that.
Wow often I think that me and the other people on these boards are playing completely different games as the things they say see and do are completely the opposite of what I see say and do
You're talking about preference. That is completely different from what nilden stated, which is that the path he presents is 'fundamental', 'simple basic design' and 'MMORPG Design 101'. Any other path is 'screwing up' because grouping is something he feels the dev should 'always' focus on.
Does it work for certain MMOs? Definitely.Not only does it work, but it is a major strength of most trinity-based, combat-centric MMOs(ex: EQ and WOW).
Should every MMO do that? No. Is it MMO Design 101? Absolutely not, and knowing that it absolutely isn't probably is MMO Design 101.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Man it's like my entire post is sailing a mile over all your heads and you have no idea what I'm talking about.
ALWAYS being able to group. A solo instance is usually main story content that forces the player to do it solo.
http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=57067
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1z8ywo/solo_only_areas_really/
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/446/view/forums/thread/395794/Is-this-game-duo-friendly.html
The Secret World, Final Fantasy 14 and Elder Scrolls Online all do it.
I'm not saying people should not be able to solo but any MMORPG worth it's salt should always encourage grouping.
Then you want to say it's my bias and grouping is not basic MMORPG design. There is no reason to force players to solo. EVER. A player should never have to say "we can't group to do this quest." and people are saying it isn't MMORPG design 101.
I weep tears of agony when stating that grouping should always be encouraged is met with such disdain. The Guild Wars 2 example is awesome because even for the personal story solo stuff you can still bring friends if you want same with SWTOR. This whole thread is just depressing to me seeing how many people don't even understand what I'm talking about and then shrugging off grouping as something that isn't a fundamental design. I can only imagine how utter garbage a MMO with no grouping would be. Hey since grouping isn't fundamental design I'm sure there are MMORPGs with no grouping. Gotta be one right? /sigh
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ALWAYS though? No definitely not. That's bad design.
There is no "MMORPG Design 101". Not unless you want to mimic whatever everyone else has already done. Such narrow-mindedness is a hindrance to creativity.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well I get where you are coming from OP, I think the whole world needs to be a harsh place, and very challenging, so that people cant just go out get to max level and never group.
Not saying all MMO's should be this way, but there should be a couple, and unlike what many say, I believe it would attract a lot of players, I know so many people who have left MMO's due to it being way to easy.
Give us at least a couple of AAA MMO's with a challenging open world please and thank you.
I don't think these games have forced solo or forced grouping.
I feel people into games force themself to those things and not the other way around.
For me it's actually other people that are mainly forcing me to solo more then I did in the old. People tend to play these type of games like jobs, they need better rewards else they feel it's not worth it. What happend to people just having fun in this genre to play how they want. That is the main problem this genre is facing and it's not because of these games anymore.
This.
Grouping is already encouraged in every game apart from very few examples. It gets you the best gear, the best income, the best XP rate... Unless you mean there should be artificial buffs etc. for grouping, I don't know what you're talking about.
If you want MMORPGs to have absolutely no solo-only content, why don't you simply say so?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Other than it's what you think, what makes you think this is right? If an MMORPG doesn't do this, what are the consequences?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think in an MMO all content should have the option that it can be done with groups. Even personal storylines etc. That not to say that there should be forced grouping or anything. I think group and social content should always be the bread and butter of MMOs, it is the only thing that sets them apart from all other games. Otherwise we would all just play multiplayers and single player games. Without the social and group centric content MMOs are just another game, but with latency issues.
A group-centric MMO is good in theory, but it always has a lingering question tied to it...
...What is the game you are going to give to the guy who cannot find a group, or the guy who no group will take?
It's a hard question, and one that the games don't have the ability to rectify easily. Because all you can grant is a game to a consumer. You can't grant them a group to play the game with. I have found that the more a game relies upon groups and guilds to organize player activity, the more guilds and groups become exclusive affairs, where the general player is screened out.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Debatable whether MMOS should have this type of content, but in the case of ESO they were trying to provide some personal story to go with the MMO part.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't believe it is a zero sum game. Dungeons, raids, PvP is and other social content always should be group centric. But it should balanced by solo content such as questing, crafting and personal dungeons etc. This doesn't necessarily mean dumbing the game down, but recognizing that that it takes all sorts to make a successful and vibrant MMO.
Doesn't make any sense to me. You either reward all play styles or you don't make a homogenized game. It is insulting to any gamer to have a game proclaim they cater to you only to turn around and primarily reward only certain play styles or specific content.
Grouping is but one single social system. There are many different ways to encourage socializing aside from grouping that are far less limiting on how a player wants to play the game.
As if your anecdotal observations are data.
I bet there is more qqing about how hard CATA heoric dungeons are then people who leave because the game is too easy.
I am there with you...but not in a group.
City of Heroes was a game where grouping and soloing were easily done. Having instances scale to group size allowed it to be fun and interesting. I wish more games would look at that game for inspiration on how to allow solo and teamwork. Sidekicking/mentoring and difficulty sliders were an added benefit to their approach.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Have a big cake so you can chose to chew it alone or share it with other is better than have 1/8 piece of cake.
Unless you don't like big cake .
Thank you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
MMORPG Design 100 - Balance & Options. You need both grouping and solo content. You need to make sure either could get the player where they want to be - level, skill, or item obtain. Let me add:
MMORPG Design 99 - Encourage Guilds & Community. Players need a small group within the big group of people they jive with for support.