These are very good points. Both communication and travel speed are quite limited in Traveller. I think with some good heads considering this, there may be way to compromise.
Voice Chat systems could ruin the play, but maybe there could be a way to limit this? Maybe a sniffer program that could see if voice chat is being used? Lots of info goes back and forth between servers and clients.
Speed of travel... I recall that warping(?) was available, but limited. What the game could incorporate is the chance for a random encounter during warp travel. There certainly could not be any "teleporting" fast travel points I guess some players would be out of luck, there, eh? Come to think of it, was limited teleportation part of the tech tree?
Anyway, I realize that some (many?) aspects of Traveller may have to fiddled with to make a good MMO
Voice chat sniffers ain't good unless the game have a good system for it inbedded, players on the same ship must have the option to use voice chats and frankly will there be online sites (like GW2s temple spawn timers) that will show you were prices are high and low.
It would be far better to have a system where each ship gets it's own prices at different places, and randomly change them over time. That way you might get good prices at a place while others wont and it would be impossible to cheat by calling guildies about the perfect places. Here however it is important that the goods is stored on that specific ship until it is sold so players just can't change ship and get different prices.
As for travel time I think there should be a few minutes traveling(1-3 or so with an average ship and average distance) through space to get between places, unless you get a random encounter (PvE or another player ship in PvP). Instant teleportation are kinda immersion breaking but spending too long time doing nothing sucks as well. You could also have hidden planets player could run into while travelling and stuff like that.
Travel time also gives a sense of vastness and distance. A game world feels vast if it takes a long time to travel from one end to another, so people then make the journey only if they have good reason to. Price differentials also mean different trade hubs spring up, instead of everyone just forming a single trade hub. This creates price differences that crafters and traders can take advantage of, whether by crafting in places where goods are rare or hauling them over.
It also means that for PvP, people can't just rush to reinforce at a moment's notice.
The downside though is the obvious limitations this creates for the player who has limited time. People will want to do stuff with their time, not just traveling, but neither will they want to be effectively bound to their one place. Offline travel also presents obvious problems for those that may want to attack or rob the traveler midway along the journey.
The communication is even harder to replicate as people will just resort to other websites even if theoretically somehow voice chat were stamped down on.
In PnP games, or novels, the GM or author can flash forward and skip the intervening uneventful travel time, but that is not really an option in an MMO. The problem is today's instant gratification crowd will likely demand teleports.
Now for the Traveller specific stuff: The Jump system took a ship its Jump rating in hexes (parsecs) in about a week. The time was the same, just the distance varied. So a Jump 6 ship could travel 6x the distance a Jump 1 ship could in the same amount of time. The downside is each Jump used fuel, and the amount was (Jump rating)% of the ship's volume per Jump. The fastest standard ships in Traveller, Jump 6, were thus effectively just couriers or message boats as they had hardly any volume to do anything else once you started taking other mandatory systems into account. Fuel either cost money if one bought it from a spaceport, or it cost time if one harvested it from a gas giant (and then refined it).
The Jump rating also influenced the route each ship could take as Traveller used 2D hexmaps and not every hex had a system in it. Lower jump rating ships would find themselves having to travel along the "mains" (chains of systems within their Jump range so they could refuel along the way), while higher Jump rating ships could jump through larger gaps and therefore take shortcuts. Aside from time savings and lower costs, this created military implications. A historical battle in Traveller had a Jump rating 3 fleet jump across a gap that its opposing Jump rating 2 fleet thought was impassable (since they were unaware their opponents had Jump 3), allowing the Jump rating 3 fleet to blindside the opponent in an unexpected direction. For those old Traveller fans, I am referring to the maneuver of Admiral Albadawi jumping from Lagash to the Rim Main in the prelude to the Battle of Muan Kwoyen in the 8th Interstellar War.
Which was was my 2nd game to go to back in the day besides AD&D.
If I remember correctly Start Frontiers (and then Star Drive) was a better "realized" sci-fi game than Traveller. But I'd totally be okay with a combination of the two / three of those games.
You know, you don't have to be that way about it. Calling it "better realized". You might as well say the game that intelligent people played.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The game has multi-crew ships with turrets, console positions for scanning, engine rooms, and a whole lot more that is probably the closest thing to a Traveller MMO we're going to get.
One of the ships announced a few months ago was a multi-crew explorer ship with all sorts of neat stuff like a medical and repair bay. You can find the details on that ship here:
I did mention Star Citizen in reference to the engine they are working with, but not as a game like Traveller. Star Citizen does intrigue me, but I am in a "wait and see" mode with that game
The original traveller was a great fun game. I still have most of the original books in storage somewhere or at least I should still have them. I think it would be a great game if done well.
Someone mentioned the morrow project, I think that would be a good setting but not sure that style would be a marketable hit more than the super hit it would have in the forums.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by Quesa You basically described Eve Online.
This is just so wrong on so many levels. In my 14 day trial with EVE, I was never reminded of the Traveller PnP game. Have you even played it?
Yes, Traveller is a space game. So is EVE. That is about where the similarities start and end.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Torvaldr A PnP experience isn't going to translate directly to video game, especially not an mmo style game. The things that don't translate well would need to be interpreted in a way that keeps the feel of the universe the same. It's fun to imagine how it could be even if it is likely never to happen.
Your whole post a great, thought provoking read. I wanted to highlight this last paragraph, though.
This is the key. It is fun to imagine what "could be", knowing full well that it most likely will "never be"
I like your idea about communication. Having a communication satellite in a sector that anyone can "tune into" would be easily believable. And there could be actual "channels" that players could tune to.
Loke's ideas about trade intrigues me, too. I wonder how hard it would be to program an AI for all of the planet cultures that would include planning/design or basic needs and having those needs fluctuate with each delivery of goods.
As an example (let's see how clear I can be here), let's "Planet X" gets a roll that says It needs a new space dock. It send out the call for the needed materials that Planet X does not have in order to make this happen. Planet X sets a price for the materials needed. Now, by thew time players get to Planet X, that price could go up (if players have not been delivering the materials for a few days/weeks), or down (if lots of players make deliveries). Now, the "Captain" has to decide if this is the best planet to sell their goods. Did that make sense?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
One of the key fundamental premises of the Traveller universe would be difficult or impossible to replicate or implement in a MMO: the limitation in speed of travel and communication.
Yes, you can do it in a SP game. Just skip ahead in time. For example, trying to send a message to warn someone a fleet is on its way .. when you skip ahead, you find the fleet already there.
And yes, it is not suitable for a MMO, unless you put everything in an instance, and desynchonize the players.
Originally posted by Torvaldr A PnP experience isn't going to translate directly to video game, especially not an mmo style game. The things that don't translate well would need to be interpreted in a way that keeps the feel of the universe the same. It's fun to imagine how it could be even if it is likely never to happen.
Your whole post a great, thought provoking read. I wanted to highlight this last paragraph, though.
This is the key. It is fun to imagine what "could be", knowing full well that it most likely will "never be"
I like your idea about communication. Having a communication satellite in a sector that anyone can "tune into" would be easily believable. And there could be actual "channels" that players could tune to.
Loke's ideas about trade intrigues me, too. I wonder how hard it would be to program an AI for all of the planet cultures that would include planning/design or basic needs and having those needs fluctuate with each delivery of goods.
As an example (let's see how clear I can be here), let's "Planet X" gets a roll that says It needs a new space dock. It send out the call for the needed materials that Planet X does not have in order to make this happen. Planet X sets a price for the materials needed. Now, by thew time players get to Planet X, that price could go up (if players have not been delivering the materials for a few days/weeks), or down (if lots of players make deliveries). Now, the "Captain" has to decide if this is the best planet to sell their goods. Did that make sense?
What you described for your trade example is what Star Citizen and other games have thought of too. The problem however is how people find out about this price. In classic PnP Traveller, the information about pricing or demand could propagate outwards and travel only at the rate of the fastest Jump capable ship. In an MMO, somebody could park an alt character and see the price or new demand immediately, allowing a trader alt or friend to begin gathering material and start shipping ahead of any competitors that didn't use alts or friends giving instantaneous information.
Even if there were many star systems, people could still exploit by parking alts in key or hub systems allowing them to still get the news if not instantly, at least faster than anyone else, and still allowing them to get ahead.
If you scrap the delay in communication, you end up with the same problem of "universal" prices and single trade hubs if anyone can check the price of anything instantly anywhere in the universe.
There are ways to discourage or inhibit this. If you make travel take time and it takes several days to get to a system to do the trade then the deal could very well have passed or been grabbed up.
Another method could be by limiting accounts to one character or by preventing sharing resources between characters.
Even if a player were to pay for an alt account they still can't be everywhere at once. If a guild has enough players to cover many areas then they would be a force to be reckoned with. There could costs and risks built into the system for guilds that want to engage on this level of trading. I do think that this would be a problem most games would love to address.
Having a time limit or time consuming travel wouldn't change things. If anything, the ones hearing about the prices or demand first will be the ones that get there first to grab up the deal as they will be the ones to start moving ahead of everyone else.
Originally posted by Hokie I kind of reminds me of Star Frontiers.
Which was was my 2nd game to go to back in the day besides AD&D.
If I remember correctly Start Frontiers (and then Star Drive) was a better "realized" sci-fi game than Traveller. But I'd totally be okay with a combination of the two / three of those games.
I never played Star Frontiers, but that sounds cool, too
Just having an open space simulator where adventures can happen would be a nifty idea,in my opinion
One of my favorite RPGs. back then, I collected them.
I want you to know you just broke my jaw, as it flopped open and hit the floor.
Ive over the years looked in almost every hobby shop and book stores trying to find old copies. Ive never had any luck except for an incomplete booklet of Alpha Dawn from Powells Books in Portland.
This is so awesome! Thanks Geezer!
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Originally posted by Torvaldr There are ways to discourage or inhibit this. If you make travel take time and it takes several days to get to a system to do the trade then the deal could very well have passed or been grabbed up.Another method could be by limiting accounts to one character or by preventing sharing resources between characters.Even if a player were to pay for an alt account they still can't be everywhere at once. If a guild has enough players to cover many areas then they would be a force to be reckoned with. There could costs and risks built into the system for guilds that want to engage on this level of trading. I do think that this would be a problem most games would love to address.
Having a time limit or time consuming travel wouldn't change things. If anything, the ones hearing about the prices or demand first will be the ones that get there first to grab up the deal as they will be the ones to start moving ahead of everyone else.
I think you both are forgetting "scope." It seems like you are seeing one planet as the example. If you had the situation going all over the universe simultaneously, the troubles may still be there, but not as magnified (concentrated?).
Think of the number of planetary systems in the game. If all this was going on simultaneously, it would take a very huge, well organized guild to pull it off. Hopefully, there would be plenty left over for other players to have fun, too
I am thinking that in order to get the info fastest and thus react quicker, a player would do best by being in that Planet's sector. I am sure there would still be players seeking out the "best deals", but hopefully that could be limited a little
I recall some of our gameplay was just buying cargo at one planet and then just exploring (trying best to avoid pirates and "The Evil Empire") until we found a planet that paid a good price for the cargo we had.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I did not intend to kill the thread with my last post. Sorry about that
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
Voice chat sniffers ain't good unless the game have a good system for it inbedded, players on the same ship must have the option to use voice chats and frankly will there be online sites (like GW2s temple spawn timers) that will show you were prices are high and low.
It would be far better to have a system where each ship gets it's own prices at different places, and randomly change them over time. That way you might get good prices at a place while others wont and it would be impossible to cheat by calling guildies about the perfect places. Here however it is important that the goods is stored on that specific ship until it is sold so players just can't change ship and get different prices.
As for travel time I think there should be a few minutes traveling(1-3 or so with an average ship and average distance) through space to get between places, unless you get a random encounter (PvE or another player ship in PvP). Instant teleportation are kinda immersion breaking but spending too long time doing nothing sucks as well. You could also have hidden planets player could run into while travelling and stuff like that.
Travel time also gives a sense of vastness and distance. A game world feels vast if it takes a long time to travel from one end to another, so people then make the journey only if they have good reason to. Price differentials also mean different trade hubs spring up, instead of everyone just forming a single trade hub. This creates price differences that crafters and traders can take advantage of, whether by crafting in places where goods are rare or hauling them over.
It also means that for PvP, people can't just rush to reinforce at a moment's notice.
The downside though is the obvious limitations this creates for the player who has limited time. People will want to do stuff with their time, not just traveling, but neither will they want to be effectively bound to their one place. Offline travel also presents obvious problems for those that may want to attack or rob the traveler midway along the journey.
The communication is even harder to replicate as people will just resort to other websites even if theoretically somehow voice chat were stamped down on.
In PnP games, or novels, the GM or author can flash forward and skip the intervening uneventful travel time, but that is not really an option in an MMO. The problem is today's instant gratification crowd will likely demand teleports.
Now for the Traveller specific stuff: The Jump system took a ship its Jump rating in hexes (parsecs) in about a week. The time was the same, just the distance varied. So a Jump 6 ship could travel 6x the distance a Jump 1 ship could in the same amount of time. The downside is each Jump used fuel, and the amount was (Jump rating)% of the ship's volume per Jump. The fastest standard ships in Traveller, Jump 6, were thus effectively just couriers or message boats as they had hardly any volume to do anything else once you started taking other mandatory systems into account. Fuel either cost money if one bought it from a spaceport, or it cost time if one harvested it from a gas giant (and then refined it).
The Jump rating also influenced the route each ship could take as Traveller used 2D hexmaps and not every hex had a system in it. Lower jump rating ships would find themselves having to travel along the "mains" (chains of systems within their Jump range so they could refuel along the way), while higher Jump rating ships could jump through larger gaps and therefore take shortcuts. Aside from time savings and lower costs, this created military implications. A historical battle in Traveller had a Jump rating 3 fleet jump across a gap that its opposing Jump rating 2 fleet thought was impassable (since they were unaware their opponents had Jump 3), allowing the Jump rating 3 fleet to blindside the opponent in an unexpected direction. For those old Traveller fans, I am referring to the maneuver of Admiral Albadawi jumping from Lagash to the Rim Main in the prelude to the Battle of Muan Kwoyen in the 8th Interstellar War.
You know, you don't have to be that way about it. Calling it "better realized". You might as well say the game that intelligent people played.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The original traveller was a great fun game. I still have most of the original books in storage somewhere or at least I should still have them. I think it would be a great game if done well.
Someone mentioned the morrow project, I think that would be a good setting but not sure that style would be a marketable hit more than the super hit it would have in the forums.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Because in traveller we didn't leave our ship and walk around having adventures...
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Yes, Traveller is a space game. So is EVE. That is about where the similarities start and end.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
This is the key. It is fun to imagine what "could be", knowing full well that it most likely will "never be"
I like your idea about communication. Having a communication satellite in a sector that anyone can "tune into" would be easily believable. And there could be actual "channels" that players could tune to.
Loke's ideas about trade intrigues me, too. I wonder how hard it would be to program an AI for all of the planet cultures that would include planning/design or basic needs and having those needs fluctuate with each delivery of goods.
As an example (let's see how clear I can be here), let's "Planet X" gets a roll that says It needs a new space dock. It send out the call for the needed materials that Planet X does not have in order to make this happen. Planet X sets a price for the materials needed. Now, by thew time players get to Planet X, that price could go up (if players have not been delivering the materials for a few days/weeks), or down (if lots of players make deliveries). Now, the "Captain" has to decide if this is the best planet to sell their goods. Did that make sense?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yes, you can do it in a SP game. Just skip ahead in time. For example, trying to send a message to warn someone a fleet is on its way .. when you skip ahead, you find the fleet already there.
And yes, it is not suitable for a MMO, unless you put everything in an instance, and desynchonize the players.
What you described for your trade example is what Star Citizen and other games have thought of too. The problem however is how people find out about this price. In classic PnP Traveller, the information about pricing or demand could propagate outwards and travel only at the rate of the fastest Jump capable ship. In an MMO, somebody could park an alt character and see the price or new demand immediately, allowing a trader alt or friend to begin gathering material and start shipping ahead of any competitors that didn't use alts or friends giving instantaneous information.
Even if there were many star systems, people could still exploit by parking alts in key or hub systems allowing them to still get the news if not instantly, at least faster than anyone else, and still allowing them to get ahead.
If you scrap the delay in communication, you end up with the same problem of "universal" prices and single trade hubs if anyone can check the price of anything instantly anywhere in the universe.
Hey I am all for, anything that gets us off the whole "combat is everything in an MMO" , treadmill.
Its a great idea Quirky, would be nice if someone would pick up on this and make it happen.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Having a time limit or time consuming travel wouldn't change things. If anything, the ones hearing about the prices or demand first will be the ones that get there first to grab up the deal as they will be the ones to start moving ahead of everyone else.
I want you to know you just broke my jaw, as it flopped open and hit the floor.
Ive over the years looked in almost every hobby shop and book stores trying to find old copies. Ive never had any luck except for an incomplete booklet of Alpha Dawn from Powells Books in Portland.
This is so awesome! Thanks Geezer!
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
Think of the number of planetary systems in the game. If all this was going on simultaneously, it would take a very huge, well organized guild to pull it off. Hopefully, there would be plenty left over for other players to have fun, too
I am thinking that in order to get the info fastest and thus react quicker, a player would do best by being in that Planet's sector. I am sure there would still be players seeking out the "best deals", but hopefully that could be limited a little
I recall some of our gameplay was just buying cargo at one planet and then just exploring (trying best to avoid pirates and "The Evil Empire") until we found a planet that paid a good price for the cargo we had.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I did not intend to kill the thread with my last post. Sorry about that
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR