The bottom line is, they offered early access as part of the bonus for pre-ordering the game. It's part of what you paid for, and now you are not getting it. Bumps on the road are expected with any MMO release, but the amount of time ESO has been down now is beyond inexcusable levels, because they are simply not delivering what was advertised with their product. If they come back and compensate everyone for this time somehow, I think the damage can (mostly) be undone. Facts are facts though, and people are not getting what they paid for.
Mostly that as long as people are willing to continue to not only tolerate, but go out of their way to excuse and defend half arsed launches filled with bugs that have been there since beta, that's exactly what they'll get.
Every.
Bloody.
Time.
It constantly amazes me how much of what game companies do would be considered unethical or outright illegal in any other industry, and yet is not only considered acceptable by many gamers, but vehemently defended.
Originally posted by DAS1337 So, you're implying because there have been buggy and/or failed launches in the past, by other developers, that I shouldn't be annoyed that I purchased a product that is currently not working? What kind of bizzaro world are you living in son?
Have you ever purchased any form of software at all? Did any of it ever work perfectly? No. Even if you yourself did not notice the bugs, they were there. Being annoyed with it is fine. People whining endlessly, especially about something that they are in the middle of fixing at this very moment, and trying to turn what actually amounts to minor issues into the coming of the apocalypse is a whole different story.
BTW, the "product" is actually working at the moment. EU servers are up and running fine. It is an issue with the NA databases that caused the downtime for NA only, not the entire game. So technically, ESO is working fine, just 1 of the servers is not up at the moment.
Clearly, the entire game must be broken when the EU server has none of these issues. Yes it sucks when you are personally affected by bugs, however, it is not the drama all the queens in this thread profess it to be.
My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.
Mostly that as long as people are willing to continue to not only tolerate, but go out of their way to excuse and defend half arsed launches filled with bugs that have been there since beta, that's exactly what they'll get.
Every.
Bloody.
Time.
It constantly amazes me how much of what game companies do would be considered unethical or outright illegal in any other industry, and yet is not only considered acceptable by many gamers, but vehemently defended.
^^ This.
While I think the guy in this video is a twat, your response about companies made me think of his video.
Originally posted by laserit Would some of you like a little cheese with your whine?
Yes...Pepperjack please.
And I hope you are actually going to deliver on this generous offer- The last time I was offered cheese with my whine I never got the promised cheese...And I waited...and waited...and waited.
Mostly that as long as people are willing to continue to not only tolerate, but go out of their way to excuse and defend half arsed launches filled with bugs that have been there since beta, that's exactly what they'll get.
Every.
Bloody.
Time.
It constantly amazes me how much of what game companies do would be considered unethical or outright illegal in any other industry, and yet is not only considered acceptable by many gamers, but vehemently defended.
Such as? I don't think you have the slightest clue just how many recalls happen on a regular basis with all types of products around the world due to them being faulty in some way. That doesnt even come closer to covering the faulty products that don't get recalled and people get screwed out of WAY more money for than it costs to buy a game.
We're not even talking pointless video games here, but products that actually endanger, and take, peoples lives when they don't function properly. In most cases, such instances are settled in a civil court, not a criminal court. Are customers upset? Sure. Is it illegal in most cases? No. That's why such things generally get resolved in civil suits, not in a criminal court.
Fortunately with something like an MMO, they don't need to recall the product. They can just fix it.
Originally posted by evilastro If they remade the list now, ESO would be number one. People logging into other peoples characters from their own usernames is a hilariously epic fail.
Let me start with ZeniMax's decision to reveal player account handles to everyone on said player's friend list. I wish I were joking here, but unfortunately the devs did fail IT Security 101, so if you've got a login handle that you'd just as soon keep private, well, don't join a guild and don't make friends!
I can't for the life of me understand the logic behind this decision unless ZeniMax is hoping for a rash of account hackings so it can start selling you USB security keys in a few weeks
You are joking right? I mean what does a player handle have to do with anything here? After all Cryptic have been doing this for their games every since the company came out. So what if a person see another person's handle, does this mean that same player is going to magically know the person's password to the account too? And it seems if neither of you read the information not one time did ZeniMax state this was something a player did on purpose. They stated that players were seeing additional items and seeing items not earned by their characters. It is plain to see here this was an internal issue and not some players hacking
Mostly that as long as people are willing to continue to not only tolerate, but go out of their way to excuse and defend half arsed launches filled with bugs that have been there since beta, that's exactly what they'll get.
Every.
Bloody.
Time.
It constantly amazes me how much of what game companies do would be considered unethical or outright illegal in any other industry, and yet is not only considered acceptable by many gamers, but vehemently defended.
Such as? I don't think you have the slightest clue just how many recalls happen on a regular basis with all types of products around the world due to them being faulty in some way. That doesnt even come closer to covering the faulty products that don't get recalled and people get screwed out of WAY more money for than it costs to buy a game.
We're not even talking pointless video games here, but products that actually endanger, and take, peoples lives when they don't function properly. In most cases, such instances are settled in a civil court, not a criminal court. Are customers upset? Sure. Is it illegal in most cases? No. That's why such things generally get resolved in civil suits, not in a criminal court.
Fortunately with something like an MMO, they don't need to recall the product. They can just fix it.
The person quoted did say unethical which is exactly what you are describing and in any case doesn't make it any less of an issue. I implore you to look up the history of the Ford Pinto. Bare in mind that many of the head honcho's knew of the defect and figured it would be cheaper to settle lawsuits when their car exploded than recall, which eventually happened.
I don't think ESO is in that bad of shape, but the point made still stands that we do excuse and defend what we shouldn't when it comes to our gaming hobby.
D&L should definitely top the list of terrible launches.
Anyways, comparing a game launch a decade plus ago to today is apples and oranges. The further technology advances the higher my expectations are.
Rift and GW2 didn't suffer this same fate. Want to bet WildStar has a relatively smooth launch as well?
There really isn't an excuse for this level of ineptitude from an AAA MMO in 2014.
I'm curious about the part in red. Do people really think that faster & better technology is somehow way less complicated to maintain? If anything it's quite the opposite in most cases, and at best it is still exactly the same as before at it's core just that we have fancier UIs for working with very similar systems. There are more complex systems to work with that have way more things that can go wrong extremely easily. No matter how "good" the technology is compared to 10 years ago, something as simple as incorrectly typing a single character can still set off a whole chain of events that brings an entire system to its knees.
Mostly that as long as people are willing to continue to not only tolerate, but go out of their way to excuse and defend half arsed launches filled with bugs that have been there since beta, that's exactly what they'll get.
Every.
Bloody.
Time.
It constantly amazes me how much of what game companies do would be considered unethical or outright illegal in any other industry, and yet is not only considered acceptable by many gamers, but vehemently defended.
Oh geez here comes the illegal unethical mumbo jumbo, next will be the lawsuit garbage.
My initial question was vague, but I was thinking in terms of deleopment rather than consumer expectations. But they are all one in the same I guess. I was more or less thinking that it was a different world in 2004. And the issues that Blizzard experienced launching WoW are quite different and for different reasons than ZM is experiencing with this launch. There is no comparison. Nor is there an excuse. Back in 2004, studios didn't have experience developing MMOs. And while ZM as a company may not have experience, I can assume they have many developers on staff who do. If in 10 years, these studios haven't paid attention to history and keep repeating the same mistakes, then it's a sad state of affairs
Beyond that, there is the consumer expectation side of the deal. After the same amount of time and the continued experiences repeating year after year, we still line up and throw our money at these unfinished products thus perpetuating the situation I described in the above paragraph. Too many people are impatient and want to be among the 1st to play. That's why companies have learned they can make more money selling beta access and whatever else companies like ZM, SoE, Funcom, ANET, CCP, EA, Blizzard..etc, are doing to over-monetize their loyal customer base. And yet players will contiune to line up, drop trau, bend over, take the shaft, walk away saying thank you and defending the actions of these companies that just gave them the shaft when others question it.
I had been on the fence about TESO, I still am. But I decided to hold off. I am glad I did. It seems to have been wise.
I'll continue to watch this game for future developments. I still want to play. But I'll only be paying (maybe) for a complete and acceptable product / experience.
There really isn't an excuse for this level of ineptitude from an AAA MMO in 2014.
Things like this really have nothing to do with ineptitude, ineptitude in this situation would be doing nothing, or failing at what they tried doing. IN this type of development most of the job is reactionary, as it's not exactly possible to see into the future and know what problems will rear their head.
Not to excuse problems, as there is no excuse, they're simply part of the job for devs. IT's not a failure to have an issue crop up, it's a failure when they ignore it, that's the difference between decent devs and bad ones.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There really isn't an excuse for this level of ineptitude from an AAA MMO in 2014.
Things like this really have nothing to do with ineptitude, ineptitude in this situation would be doing nothing, or failing at what they tried doing. IN this type of development most of the job is reactionary, as it's not exactly possible to see into the future and know what problems with rear their head.
Not to excuse problems, as there is no excuse, they're simply part of the job for devs. IT's not a failure to have an issue crop up, it's a failure when they ignore it, that's the difference between decent devs and bad ones.
Really wish more people would understand this. ZOS could have done what several companies have done in the past and claimed there was no issue, their game is perfect, we're all idiots, etc and gone on ignoring it. Instead they brought the servers down quickly and have been working through the night to fix it.
Want an example of a bad game developer? Let's use Aventurine. On many many many occassions, they have either completely ignored and refused to acknowledge well known issues in Darkfall (both in DFO and DFUW), or even gone so far as to basically say none of us know anything, they're the greatest thing to ever touch game development, and there is nothing at all wrong. That was IF you even managed to get a response out of them. Usually it took several weeks and hundreds of forum posts about an issue to get them to even acknowledge a bug, exploit, or broken system. Even then, you werent likely to see it fixed for several weeks, sometimes months, sometimes never.
In Aventurine's favor, they are a fairly small company without tons of money, so things are expected to move a bit slower. But that doesnt excuse the general attitude and flat out ignoring of known issues.
They're also far from the only company to pull similar crap. Even huge studios like Blizzard have had their share of staff insulting the player base and denying obvious problems (like with Diablo 3).
Comments
Of course it's bad programming.
What do you expect when people want the game NOW, not in 8 years?
The only sure fire way to make smooth launches, is for everyone to start using an "MMO Framework kit".
I assume you know how stagnant that will be.
Mostly that as long as people are willing to continue to not only tolerate, but go out of their way to excuse and defend half arsed launches filled with bugs that have been there since beta, that's exactly what they'll get.
Every.
Bloody.
Time.
It constantly amazes me how much of what game companies do would be considered unethical or outright illegal in any other industry, and yet is not only considered acceptable by many gamers, but vehemently defended.
Dude! That is sweet!
Have you ever purchased any form of software at all? Did any of it ever work perfectly? No. Even if you yourself did not notice the bugs, they were there. Being annoyed with it is fine. People whining endlessly, especially about something that they are in the middle of fixing at this very moment, and trying to turn what actually amounts to minor issues into the coming of the apocalypse is a whole different story.
BTW, the "product" is actually working at the moment. EU servers are up and running fine. It is an issue with the NA databases that caused the downtime for NA only, not the entire game. So technically, ESO is working fine, just 1 of the servers is not up at the moment.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.
Regards Hexcaliber
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Here's the linK. There are some sweet ones there.
Images of Steampunk PC
^^ This.
While I think the guy in this video is a twat, your response about companies made me think of his video.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Yes...Pepperjack please.
And I hope you are actually going to deliver on this generous offer- The last time I was offered cheese with my whine I never got the promised cheese...And I waited...and waited...and waited.
Such as? I don't think you have the slightest clue just how many recalls happen on a regular basis with all types of products around the world due to them being faulty in some way. That doesnt even come closer to covering the faulty products that don't get recalled and people get screwed out of WAY more money for than it costs to buy a game.
We're not even talking pointless video games here, but products that actually endanger, and take, peoples lives when they don't function properly. In most cases, such instances are settled in a civil court, not a criminal court. Are customers upset? Sure. Is it illegal in most cases? No. That's why such things generally get resolved in civil suits, not in a criminal court.
Fortunately with something like an MMO, they don't need to recall the product. They can just fix it.
D&L should definitely top the list of terrible launches.
Anyways, comparing a game launch a decade plus ago to today is apples and oranges. The further technology advances the higher my expectations are.
Rift and GW2 didn't suffer this same fate. Want to bet WildStar has a relatively smooth launch as well?
There really isn't an excuse for this level of ineptitude from an AAA MMO in 2014.
You are joking right? I mean what does a player handle have to do with anything here? After all Cryptic have been doing this for their games every since the company came out. So what if a person see another person's handle, does this mean that same player is going to magically know the person's password to the account too? And it seems if neither of you read the information not one time did ZeniMax state this was something a player did on purpose. They stated that players were seeing additional items and seeing items not earned by their characters. It is plain to see here this was an internal issue and not some players hacking
The person quoted did say unethical which is exactly what you are describing and in any case doesn't make it any less of an issue. I implore you to look up the history of the Ford Pinto. Bare in mind that many of the head honcho's knew of the defect and figured it would be cheaper to settle lawsuits when their car exploded than recall, which eventually happened.
I don't think ESO is in that bad of shape, but the point made still stands that we do excuse and defend what we shouldn't when it comes to our gaming hobby.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I'm curious about the part in red. Do people really think that faster & better technology is somehow way less complicated to maintain? If anything it's quite the opposite in most cases, and at best it is still exactly the same as before at it's core just that we have fancier UIs for working with very similar systems. There are more complex systems to work with that have way more things that can go wrong extremely easily. No matter how "good" the technology is compared to 10 years ago, something as simple as incorrectly typing a single character can still set off a whole chain of events that brings an entire system to its knees.
My initial question was vague, but I was thinking in terms of deleopment rather than consumer expectations. But they are all one in the same I guess. I was more or less thinking that it was a different world in 2004. And the issues that Blizzard experienced launching WoW are quite different and for different reasons than ZM is experiencing with this launch. There is no comparison. Nor is there an excuse. Back in 2004, studios didn't have experience developing MMOs. And while ZM as a company may not have experience, I can assume they have many developers on staff who do. If in 10 years, these studios haven't paid attention to history and keep repeating the same mistakes, then it's a sad state of affairs
Beyond that, there is the consumer expectation side of the deal. After the same amount of time and the continued experiences repeating year after year, we still line up and throw our money at these unfinished products thus perpetuating the situation I described in the above paragraph. Too many people are impatient and want to be among the 1st to play. That's why companies have learned they can make more money selling beta access and whatever else companies like ZM, SoE, Funcom, ANET, CCP, EA, Blizzard..etc, are doing to over-monetize their loyal customer base. And yet players will contiune to line up, drop trau, bend over, take the shaft, walk away saying thank you and defending the actions of these companies that just gave them the shaft when others question it.
I had been on the fence about TESO, I still am. But I decided to hold off. I am glad I did. It seems to have been wise.
I'll continue to watch this game for future developments. I still want to play. But I'll only be paying (maybe) for a complete and acceptable product / experience.
Things like this really have nothing to do with ineptitude, ineptitude in this situation would be doing nothing, or failing at what they tried doing. IN this type of development most of the job is reactionary, as it's not exactly possible to see into the future and know what problems will rear their head.
Not to excuse problems, as there is no excuse, they're simply part of the job for devs. IT's not a failure to have an issue crop up, it's a failure when they ignore it, that's the difference between decent devs and bad ones.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Really wish more people would understand this. ZOS could have done what several companies have done in the past and claimed there was no issue, their game is perfect, we're all idiots, etc and gone on ignoring it. Instead they brought the servers down quickly and have been working through the night to fix it.
Want an example of a bad game developer? Let's use Aventurine. On many many many occassions, they have either completely ignored and refused to acknowledge well known issues in Darkfall (both in DFO and DFUW), or even gone so far as to basically say none of us know anything, they're the greatest thing to ever touch game development, and there is nothing at all wrong. That was IF you even managed to get a response out of them. Usually it took several weeks and hundreds of forum posts about an issue to get them to even acknowledge a bug, exploit, or broken system. Even then, you werent likely to see it fixed for several weeks, sometimes months, sometimes never.
In Aventurine's favor, they are a fairly small company without tons of money, so things are expected to move a bit slower. But that doesnt excuse the general attitude and flat out ignoring of known issues.
They're also far from the only company to pull similar crap. Even huge studios like Blizzard have had their share of staff insulting the player base and denying obvious problems (like with Diablo 3).
I think he was pretty serious when he referred to early access as final stress test.
Fans haaan?
/sigh.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/64824/eso-north-american-megaserver-downtime-4-1-to-4-2
this is the latest update I heard of on the issue...and that was said a while ago