What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
Is that right? Come to FFXIV and try to beat Titan Hardmode or any Coil stage...There are other boss challenges that will kick your ass too if you're game...
+1. Most modern MMOs have difficult content - its just at the end not the beginning. This has proven to be more intelligent. You do not have to make all your content equal in difficulty either. This is actually boring.
+1. Most modern MMOs have difficult content - its just at the end not the beginning. This has proven to be more intelligent. You do not have to make all your content equal in difficulty either. This is actually boring.
and often, they have a difficulty slider/option in disguise anyway. In WoW, LFR is trivial (to the point you can AFK), and hard mode is pretty hard for most players.
Usually MMOs have more than one server anyway. Why not make them different from each others? Let's say easy, normal and hard. Each one would be tuned slightly different.
Most games already have different rulesets in different servers, like PvP, PvE, RP, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to expand it to gameplay and content as well.
Usually MMOs have more than one server anyway. Why not make them different from each others? Let's say easy, normal and hard. Each one would be tuned slightly different.
Most games already have different rulesets in different servers, like PvP, PvE, RP, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to expand it to gameplay and content as well.
That is one solution .. but why be restricted by the server you chose? People can change their minds, and have a different difficulty level when their mood changes right?
Usually MMOs have more than one server anyway. Why not make them different from each others? Let's say easy, normal and hard. Each one would be tuned slightly different.
Most games already have different rulesets in different servers, like PvP, PvE, RP, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to expand it to gameplay and content as well.
That is one solution .. but why be restricted by the server you chose? People can change their minds, and have a different difficulty level when their mood changes right?
That's true, but most people also have lots of alts. If one thinks the game is too hard / easy (s)he can roll an alt on another realm with different ruleset and see if that fits better for his / her taste.
What is important, though, is that everyone has the same rules and limitations on same server.
I believe this would be the best solution when trying to cater to as broad audience as possible. You can't make a game that suits to everyone, but you can alter its rules to please more than just one group of gamers.
We've already seen how difficulty sliders work in practice (well, sort of). In WoW they have normal dungeons, heroic dungeons and challenge mode dungeons. They have LFR raiding, flex raiding and heroic raiding. All in the same server.
So there's three difficulty levels present simultaneously, and it ends up being a mess (imo, it is). Many people are saying dungeons and questing are too easy, while blizzard thinks they has to be easy enough for casuals. OTOH, there's a crowd who plays because of heroic raiding only, and they think rest of the game is mind numbingly boring, and want to get to heroic raiding part asap.
My suggestion is that give an own server for each kind of player type, and set the rules according to their play style. It doesn't even have to be too complicated. Just take some basic values like exp gain, mob damage, drop rates, etc and multiply them with different factors for each server type.
What is different now is that you people aren't having fun. So go find another hobby. I'm still having fun and am seeing some harder things in certain MMOs, not in others. Was never about how hard it is to me. Guess that's the point though, YOU think hard means something.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Usually MMOs have more than one server anyway. Why not make them different from each others? Let's say easy, normal and hard. Each one would be tuned slightly different.
Most games already have different rulesets in different servers, like PvP, PvE, RP, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to expand it to gameplay and content as well.
I have been saying this for YEARS here and on official game forums.. Back in vanilla WoW, there used to be areas within the open world zones that were designed for group play.. You had elite mobs to deal with, the same as those inside instanced zones.. However, those areas were changed to fit the needs of care bears that couldn't troubled with such difficulty..
There are already different rule sets for servers like PvP and PvE.. I would love to see different tweaks to the game as well such as mob difficulty, and character development.. I don't know of a single game that couldn't dedicate at least 1 server for most rule sets.. I think it would be surprising to see how players adjust and experiment within these different servers..
Usually MMOs have more than one server anyway. Why not make them different from each others? Let's say easy, normal and hard. Each one would be tuned slightly different.
Most games already have different rulesets in different servers, like PvP, PvE, RP, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to expand it to gameplay and content as well.
I have been saying this for YEARS here and on official game forums.. Back in vanilla WoW, there used to be areas within the open world zones that were designed for group play.. You had elite mobs to deal with, the same as those inside instanced zones.. However, those areas were changed to fit the needs of care bears that couldn't troubled with such difficulty..
gw2 has this. Don't pigeon hole the industry paced on a temporary wow change.
There are already different rule sets for servers like PvP and PvE.. I would love to see different tweaks to the game as well such as mob difficulty, and character development.. I don't know of a single game that couldn't dedicate at least 1 server for most rule sets.. I think it would be surprising to see how players adjust and experiment within these different servers..
It would be an experiment sure. But companies don't do this because they want predictable results for new players. Companies are out to make a buck not conduct a social experiment. The closest to this would be minecraft.
I'm not sure there is any real definitive answer to this dilemma - the topic is very subjective. Personally I'm a bit of a solo PvE player and am unlikely to ever be classed as 'hardcore'. Lag issues tend to preclude me from any effective PvP (plus I generally suck at it...), similar problems with Raids, etc.
I have only played a few MMO's (RoM, SWTOR, GW2, Dragons Prophet) and for me personally it comes down to the game being able to maintain my interest. The time factor doesn't bother me - I have enough experience to understand that someone able to invest more time into something, or has better aptitude, is going to benefit from more rewards, so I have no interest in dumbing down content to cater for the 'casual' crowd just to make them feel like they have achieved something. That being said, it is a competitive business and regardless of how good someone (personally) thinks a game is, no player base = no income = no sustainability, and it's an expensive investment for companies. You only have to look at server consolidations, change to FTP models, etc. after a launch.
Game mechanics have evolved over time with tweaks to combat, crafting, instance difficulty, etc. but for me the biggest issue is content variety, or more specifically, end-game content variety. Putting crafting aside, it seems that end-game ends up consisting of raids, raids, and more raids to get suitable loot for the next content upgrade (when it comes), or PvP ladders. I don't necessarily mind that, but I tend to lose interest at that point. Sure, I can start an alt, but the majority of content (quests, etc.) is the same, so you play the same story over, just with different combat skills. Having said that, getting involved in an active guild which is willing to help its members with things such as instances, raids and PvP makes for a more enjoyable gaming experience. It also provides a good social aspect.
The game content is probably something I will be looking for in my next MMO choice. I am hoping Wildstar lives up to its promises of having end-game solo, group and PvP content being available at launch, instead of waiting for 'promised' updates 'down the track'.
Anyway, this is just my personal view on a very subjective topic. I doubt it's ever going to be possible to have a game which caters for everyone all the time. That's just the nature of the beast.
What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What makes anyone think the next two big mmo's coming out will be anything different? I mean, it more of the same. Will there be anything different? I mean really. The last 2 AAA mmo's I played, reaching top level was easy, I rarely died, leveling was a joke, getting high-end gear was not that difficult. I did most of that with a month's time. After, 3 months, I had no interest in continuing to play. Does anyone really thing the AAA games Wildstar online or Elder scrolls online will last that long?
I've played some of the best AAA mmo's out there, daoc, wow, rift, gw2, ac and with each new mmo the games gets easier. I'm here to bash but I can't see next two mmos as something that will change anything. Does anyone really seeing themselves play ESO or Wildstar for 6 months or longer?
Maybe it not just mmo's but video games in general. I watched this youtube post by Review Tech USA some up everything I felt.
Oh and btw, you can find challenge in any game, if you put your mind to it. I see you've mentioned rift and gw2, two MMOs that I've extensively played. If you really want a challenge, try to solo a dungeon in gw2 or duo a dungeon in Rift. The challenge is there, you simply *choose* to ignore it and then complain in a public board, what the hell man?
This kind of logic really irks me and just makes little sense. So if I want to find Hungry Hungry Hippos Challenging I should try to push the lever with my toe? Hell maybe if I want GW2 or another MMO to be challenging I should take off all my armor and weapons and punch things unarmed? While we're at it lets do away with all the interesting mechanics (dodge, gear, whatever) that could make the games combat unique and interesting and just play it as stripped down as possible for the sake of challenge.
Originally posted by Vallista What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What was actually challenging about the old MMOs? Were they challenging just because it took a long time to level? Is that it? Oh, but they also required a full group to do anything.
Sounds like a "time spent = challenge" thread combined with a "group vs solo" rant.
Nothing new to see here.
Have to agree. When people mention MMOs are easy today, the only reasoning they give is time. Which just makes thing tedious, not challenging.
Artificial Intelligence was as terrible as it is now so combat was not more challenging.
I can understand why use might think this but you are wrong. I used to play everquest back in 2000, during velious and people used to post exactly the same type of thread. The game is to easy now its being dumbed down blah blah blah.
I think it more wasters making themselves feel special. 10 years from now people will be posting the exact same threads.
Originally posted by Vallista What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What was actually challenging about the old MMOs? Were they challenging just because it took a long time to level? Is that it? Oh, but they also required a full group to do anything.
Sounds like a "time spent = challenge" thread combined with a "group vs solo" rant.
Nothing new to see here.
Have to agree. When people mention MMOs are easy today, the only reasoning they give is time. Which just makes thing tedious, not challenging.
Artificial Intelligence was as terrible as it is now so combat was not more challenging.
I can understand why use might think this but you are wrong. I used to play everquest back in 2000, during velious and people used to post exactly the same type of thread. The game is to easy now its being dumbed down blah blah blah.
I think it more wasters making themselves feel special. 10 years from now people will be posting the exact same threads.
10 years ago players didnt know what dumbed down meant to the game industry... 10 years later we have threads like this one. Games have been dumbed down, anyone who played WoW vanilla, Ultima Online at release or even Everquest knows this.
Funniest thing I have ever heard about the dumbing down of games is this quote:
"how can you say WoW was dumbed down? When Wrath of the Lich King expanision was released the gained millions of subscribers!" - this is only due to the maddeningly successful advertising Campaign Blizzard did for Wrath...
Games are not necessarily being dumbed down.. but developers are putting less than stellar effort into creating new content into the games to maintain Longevity. so we see things like PokeWoW... oops meant pet battles.... anyway about a decade ago the Chinese came up with an amazing formula...
Target the 12 year olds!.... An amazing concept totally foreign to the US. we put rating on our games to "protect the kids" heh funny right? Truth is Most of the top Publishers in the US picked up the rally call and that is what you players are seeing happen to your games.. they arent being "Dumbed Down" they are just targeting the players younger than YOU!
Originally posted by Vallista What happen to mmo's now? I remember when a mmo where a challenge. One play style, players adapting to the content, true team play, real player communities, Countless hours of dying and few players ever reaching really top level/gear because of hard work. But now, reaching top level can be done in a weekend, content is adjusted for the player so they can get through it, everything can be solo'ed in a weekend.
What was actually challenging about the old MMOs? Were they challenging just because it took a long time to level? Is that it? Oh, but they also required a full group to do anything.
Sounds like a "time spent = challenge" thread combined with a "group vs solo" rant.
Nothing new to see here.
Have to agree. When people mention MMOs are easy today, the only reasoning they give is time. Which just makes thing tedious, not challenging.
Artificial Intelligence was as terrible as it is now so combat was not more challenging.
I can understand why use might think this but you are wrong. I used to play everquest back in 2000, during velious and people used to post exactly the same type of thread. The game is to easy now its being dumbed down blah blah blah.
I think it more wasters making themselves feel special. 10 years from now people will be posting the exact same threads.
10 years ago players didnt know what dumbed down meant to the game industry... 10 years later we have threads like this one. Games have been dumbed down, anyone who played WoW vanilla, Ultima Online at release or even Everquest knows this.
Funniest thing I have ever heard about the dumbing down of games is this quote:
"how can you say WoW was dumbed down? When Wrath of the Lich King expanision was released the gained millions of subscribers!" - this is only due to the maddeningly successful advertising Campaign Blizzard did for Wrath...
Games are not necessarily being dumbed down.. but developers are putting less than stellar effort into creating new content into the games to maintain Longevity. so we see things like PokeWoW... oops meant pet battles.... anyway about a decade ago the Chinese came up with an amazing formula...
Target the 12 year olds!.... An amazing concept totally foreign to the US. we put rating on our games to "protect the kids" heh funny right? Truth is Most of the top Publishers in the US picked up the rally call and that is what you players are seeing happen to your games.. they arent being "Dumbed Down" they are just targeting the players younger than YOU!
This is not a new concept. When I was growing up they were targeting us with PCs, Nintendo, Fast Food, and Games. Before that they were targeting younger people with smoking, drinking, movies, and music. I guess the difference between my generation and this generation is that things couldn't be as simple as they are now. There wasn't the technology for it. On top of that people had a lot more free time. Now it's go go go. You are always in contact with people, always learning new things, and always have to do something like go to the doctor to get checkups, go to the dentist. There is also a lot more entertainment now then there was when I was young. I watched Star Wars and Indiana Jones over and over again. There wasn't a whole lot like it at the time. Now kids have so much entertainment they can just jump from one thing to the next. I can feel it in myself as well. I have less patience then I used to have with all this technology and entertainment.
We are not seeing difficulty sliders in clean sheet MMOs either. GW2, TESO and Wildstar - none of them have difficulty sliders like Diablo III.
Why? It's because they do market research and discover most people will just go with easy mode for most of the content - robbing themselves of any satisfaction they would get from achieving anything in the game. You might think that this is impossible and that people will just pick the level that's most fun - but real world experience shows us this is not.
There's a dangerous notion in this comment that it is acceptable to impose one's idea of fun on someone else. For instance, if I were a dev, it would be OK if I removed easy-setting saying you'll enjoy the game more without it. What gives anyone that right to decide what's best for you? And how do you judge whether a decision is good?
Lots of reasons why some people get to make decisions for others. In the case of parents, they decide for their children for many years, because their children lack the knowledge and experience to know what is best for them.
Representative government is frequently preferred over democratic, because the masses can't spend enough time becoming informed on the issues in order to know what is best for them
Corporation leaders often make choices on behalf of shareholders or employees, again, because they've got better knowledge or information and are likely to make better informed choices for the company.
Game Developers have to provide systems that interact in such a way that it is beneficial to the greatest number of players, likely to maximize revenues and be better for the overall health of the game.
There are always good reasons for other folks to make choices on your behalf, and they won't always get it right, no one is infallible, but they are likely to have a greater chance of success in the long run.
You have to be able to accept the fact that you don't really know what's best for you all the time, and trust the people in charge to do so on your behalf.
Are MMO's too easy now? I don't know, not sure they were ever hard, just more time consuming by design but not necessarily any harder.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lots of reasons why some people get to make decisions for others. In the case of parents, they decide for their children for many years, because their children lack the knowledge and experience to know what is best for them.
We are talking about entertainment products for adult players here. I doubt there is good reason why you should make ANY choice for me. Options are good. You pick your game. You pick your difficulty. I pick mine. Better than you pick for me .. and i am sure you don't want me to pick for you.
Lots of reasons why some people get to make decisions for others. In the case of parents, they decide for their children for many years, because their children lack the knowledge and experience to know what is best for them.
We are talking about entertainment products for adult players here. I doubt there is good reason why you should make ANY choice for me. Options are good. You pick your game. You pick your difficulty. I pick mine. Better than you pick for me .. and i am sure you don't want me to pick for you.
A developer choosing your difficulty is no different than the developer making every other decision about the game. Who is he to say you should play a fantasy game? Who is he to say you should play a FPS? "He" is the one making the game, who ELSE would decide what it should be like?
As for why anybody would not want a difficulty slider, I've already told you why they're not optimal. You choose to ignore it and go on spouting the same endorsements for it.
I'll come at it from another angle, just for fun, even though telling you things is pointless because you will quite literally just ignore things that don't agree with you. You already have "options." You have the option to play this game, or that game. Having more options in a single game isn't automatically a good thing. It's possible for a developer to spread themselves too thin, rather than focusing on one thing. Difficulty is NO exception to that. It's why there are people who pick Bioware games over Bethesda games. Maybe I don't want one huge open world with a million NPCs if each of those NPC encounters is poorly scripted.
I'm not sure there is any real definitive answer to this dilemma - the topic is very subjective. Personally I'm a bit of a solo PvE player and am unlikely to ever be classed as 'hardcore'. Lag issues tend to preclude me from any effective PvP (plus I generally suck at it...), similar problems with Raids, etc.
I have only played a few MMO's (RoM, SWTOR, GW2, Dragons Prophet) and for me personally it comes down to the game being able to maintain my interest. The time factor doesn't bother me - I have enough experience to understand that someone able to invest more time into something, or has better aptitude, is going to benefit from more rewards, so I have no interest in dumbing down content to cater for the 'casual' crowd just to make them feel like they have achieved something. That being said, it is a competitive business and regardless of how good someone (personally) thinks a game is, no player base = no income = no sustainability, and it's an expensive investment for companies. You only have to look at server consolidations, change to FTP models, etc. after a launch.
Game mechanics have evolved over time with tweaks to combat, crafting, instance difficulty, etc. but for me the biggest issue is content variety, or more specifically, end-game content variety. Putting crafting aside, it seems that end-game ends up consisting of raids, raids, and more raids to get suitable loot for the next content upgrade (when it comes), or PvP ladders. I don't necessarily mind that, but I tend to lose interest at that point. Sure, I can start an alt, but the majority of content (quests, etc.) is the same, so you play the same story over, just with different combat skills. Having said that, getting involved in an active guild which is willing to help its members with things such as instances, raids and PvP makes for a more enjoyable gaming experience. It also provides a good social aspect.
The game content is probably something I will be looking for in my next MMO choice. I am hoping Wildstar lives up to its promises of having end-game solo, group and PvP content being available at launch, instead of waiting for 'promised' updates 'down the track'.
Anyway, this is just my personal view on a very subjective topic. I doubt it's ever going to be possible to have a game which caters for everyone all the time. That's just the nature of the beast.
I was reading your post and it made me think about why I seem to want leveling and exploration to be hard. Endgame consists of raids and PvP. I don't like or participate in raids or PvP. I didn't in older MMOs either for the most part outside of duals or being forced into it. Perhaps there is challenge in MMOs at endgame now, but the problem is that isn't something I would compete it. On the flips side I might not mind competing in a battle of attrition to level up or a battle of patience trying to explore, find things, and complete long quests that don't show you where to go via GPS. At least that was my mentality when I was younger and how I played games. I would do small group once in a while and interact with other people via other means like asking them for help or helping them in some way while wandering around the world. I guess the main problem is I feel there isn't much for me to do in MMOs now. The leveling/exploring process is to easy and I have no interest in the endgame content.
The leveling/exploring process is to easy and I have no interest in the endgame content.
Play Diablo 3 then. The leveling process can be as easy as mowing through mobs with no chance of dead, or impossibly hard even if you use all your skills, and tactical options.
The leveling/exploring process is to easy and I have no interest in the endgame content.
Play Diablo 3 then. The leveling process can be as easy as mowing through mobs with no chance of dead, or impossibly hard even if you use all your skills, and tactical options.
Everyone can be fitted somewhere in between.
You do realize that everyone bought Diablo III because they THOUGHT It would be good - not because it was. <g> You seem to be under the impression that Diablo III is some kind of ground breaking game instead of some pathetic attempt to exploit their companies IP.
No one gives a crap - not gamers - and not anyone in the gaming industry. Blizzard could sell 15 million crap on a stick with the power of the Diablo IP - and that's pretty much what they did. Its not just a mediocre game - its one of the most disappointing games in gaming history - right up there with Duke Nukem Forever.
A 3.9 in metacritic? And that's the view of the 'common' person that you seem to think plays the game..
The leveling/exploring process is to easy and I have no interest in the endgame content.
Play Diablo 3 then. The leveling process can be as easy as mowing through mobs with no chance of dead, or impossibly hard even if you use all your skills, and tactical options.
A 3.9 in metacritic? And that's the view of the 'common' person that you seem to think plays the game..
What 3.9? It is 87 on metacritics. I hope you are not naive enough to look at user ratings that are obviously pulled down by haters. "common" people don't go to websites hate & rate.
You don't like it do not mean that it is not good. In fact, if you go to D3 forum here, even many people here like it ... and this place is hostile to all things Blizz.
The leveling/exploring process is to easy and I have no interest in the endgame content.
Play Diablo 3 then. The leveling process can be as easy as mowing through mobs with no chance of dead, or impossibly hard even if you use all your skills, and tactical options.
Everyone can be fitted somewhere in between.
Obviously didnt play diablo 3.
Not sure if he play or not play any of those .
Sometime he spoke like he ready play them , then sometime he said he never spend any money to buy or subs any game.
It is easier to achieve success with your game (or any endeavor) if you pander to the people with low standards, because there are more of them and because it takes less effort and resources.
If you know your audience doesn't care about feeling a sense of danger or accomplishment, then developing your game is going to be fairly simple in comparison to developing a game that requires more of your players.
You also don't have to deal with endless complaints about how difficult your game is. The masses just want a nice comfy game that essentially plays itself while they sit there watching TV or whatever.
This absurd concept of entertainment people attempt to sate themselves with these days is quite strange, but with the influx in popularity of more punishingly challenging games like Dark Souls or DayZ, I hope it's a sign that people are finally realizing how comparatively flat of an experience a typical MMO like WoW provides.
One of the greatest potential strengths of the MMORPG is to have death matter . If it doesn't matter if you die or not, then nothing in the game ends up having any weight to it. You can't accomplish something if there is no real opposition standing in your way.
Games, at their core, are about overcoming challenges, and if developers de-emphasize that too much then their games start to veer into a sort of observational automated process not unlike films or television.
It is easier to achieve success with your game (or any endeavor) if you pander to the people with low standards, because there are more of them and because it takes less effort and resources.
If you know your audience doesn't care about feeling a sense of danger or accomplishment, then developing your game is going to be fairly simple in comparison to developing a game that requires more of your players.
You also don't have to deal with endless complaints about how difficult your game is. The apathetic masses just want a nice comfy game that essentially plays itself while they sit there watching TV or whatever.
This absurd concept of entertainment people attempt to sate themselves with these days is quite strange, but with the influx in popularity of more punishingly challenging games like Dark Souls or DayZ, I hope it's a sign that people are finally realizing how comparatively flat of an experience a typical MMO like WoW provides.
Comments
+1. Most modern MMOs have difficult content - its just at the end not the beginning. This has proven to be more intelligent. You do not have to make all your content equal in difficulty either. This is actually boring.
and often, they have a difficulty slider/option in disguise anyway. In WoW, LFR is trivial (to the point you can AFK), and hard mode is pretty hard for most players.
Usually MMOs have more than one server anyway. Why not make them different from each others? Let's say easy, normal and hard. Each one would be tuned slightly different.
Most games already have different rulesets in different servers, like PvP, PvE, RP, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to expand it to gameplay and content as well.
That is one solution .. but why be restricted by the server you chose? People can change their minds, and have a different difficulty level when their mood changes right?
That's true, but most people also have lots of alts. If one thinks the game is too hard / easy (s)he can roll an alt on another realm with different ruleset and see if that fits better for his / her taste.
What is important, though, is that everyone has the same rules and limitations on same server.
I believe this would be the best solution when trying to cater to as broad audience as possible. You can't make a game that suits to everyone, but you can alter its rules to please more than just one group of gamers.
We've already seen how difficulty sliders work in practice (well, sort of). In WoW they have normal dungeons, heroic dungeons and challenge mode dungeons. They have LFR raiding, flex raiding and heroic raiding. All in the same server.
So there's three difficulty levels present simultaneously, and it ends up being a mess (imo, it is). Many people are saying dungeons and questing are too easy, while blizzard thinks they has to be easy enough for casuals. OTOH, there's a crowd who plays because of heroic raiding only, and they think rest of the game is mind numbingly boring, and want to get to heroic raiding part asap.
My suggestion is that give an own server for each kind of player type, and set the rules according to their play style. It doesn't even have to be too complicated. Just take some basic values like exp gain, mob damage, drop rates, etc and multiply them with different factors for each server type.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I have been saying this for YEARS here and on official game forums.. Back in vanilla WoW, there used to be areas within the open world zones that were designed for group play.. You had elite mobs to deal with, the same as those inside instanced zones.. However, those areas were changed to fit the needs of care bears that couldn't troubled with such difficulty..
There are already different rule sets for servers like PvP and PvE.. I would love to see different tweaks to the game as well such as mob difficulty, and character development.. I don't know of a single game that couldn't dedicate at least 1 server for most rule sets.. I think it would be surprising to see how players adjust and experiment within these different servers..
gw2 has this. Don't pigeon hole the industry paced on a temporary wow change.
It would be an experiment sure. But companies don't do this because they want predictable results for new players. Companies are out to make a buck not conduct a social experiment. The closest to this would be minecraft.
Well, I feel such a noob reading through this.
I'm not sure there is any real definitive answer to this dilemma - the topic is very subjective. Personally I'm a bit of a solo PvE player and am unlikely to ever be classed as 'hardcore'. Lag issues tend to preclude me from any effective PvP (plus I generally suck at it...), similar problems with Raids, etc.
I have only played a few MMO's (RoM, SWTOR, GW2, Dragons Prophet) and for me personally it comes down to the game being able to maintain my interest. The time factor doesn't bother me - I have enough experience to understand that someone able to invest more time into something, or has better aptitude, is going to benefit from more rewards, so I have no interest in dumbing down content to cater for the 'casual' crowd just to make them feel like they have achieved something. That being said, it is a competitive business and regardless of how good someone (personally) thinks a game is, no player base = no income = no sustainability, and it's an expensive investment for companies. You only have to look at server consolidations, change to FTP models, etc. after a launch.
Game mechanics have evolved over time with tweaks to combat, crafting, instance difficulty, etc. but for me the biggest issue is content variety, or more specifically, end-game content variety. Putting crafting aside, it seems that end-game ends up consisting of raids, raids, and more raids to get suitable loot for the next content upgrade (when it comes), or PvP ladders. I don't necessarily mind that, but I tend to lose interest at that point. Sure, I can start an alt, but the majority of content (quests, etc.) is the same, so you play the same story over, just with different combat skills. Having said that, getting involved in an active guild which is willing to help its members with things such as instances, raids and PvP makes for a more enjoyable gaming experience. It also provides a good social aspect.
The game content is probably something I will be looking for in my next MMO choice. I am hoping Wildstar lives up to its promises of having end-game solo, group and PvP content being available at launch, instead of waiting for 'promised' updates 'down the track'.
Anyway, this is just my personal view on a very subjective topic. I doubt it's ever going to be possible to have a game which caters for everyone all the time. That's just the nature of the beast.
This kind of logic really irks me and just makes little sense. So if I want to find Hungry Hungry Hippos Challenging I should try to push the lever with my toe? Hell maybe if I want GW2 or another MMO to be challenging I should take off all my armor and weapons and punch things unarmed? While we're at it lets do away with all the interesting mechanics (dodge, gear, whatever) that could make the games combat unique and interesting and just play it as stripped down as possible for the sake of challenge.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
I can understand why use might think this but you are wrong. I used to play everquest back in 2000, during velious and people used to post exactly the same type of thread. The game is to easy now its being dumbed down blah blah blah.
I think it more wasters making themselves feel special. 10 years from now people will be posting the exact same threads.
10 years ago players didnt know what dumbed down meant to the game industry... 10 years later we have threads like this one. Games have been dumbed down, anyone who played WoW vanilla, Ultima Online at release or even Everquest knows this.
Funniest thing I have ever heard about the dumbing down of games is this quote:
"how can you say WoW was dumbed down? When Wrath of the Lich King expanision was released the gained millions of subscribers!" - this is only due to the maddeningly successful advertising Campaign Blizzard did for Wrath...
Games are not necessarily being dumbed down.. but developers are putting less than stellar effort into creating new content into the games to maintain Longevity. so we see things like PokeWoW... oops meant pet battles.... anyway about a decade ago the Chinese came up with an amazing formula...
Target the 12 year olds!.... An amazing concept totally foreign to the US. we put rating on our games to "protect the kids" heh funny right? Truth is Most of the top Publishers in the US picked up the rally call and that is what you players are seeing happen to your games.. they arent being "Dumbed Down" they are just targeting the players younger than YOU!
Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT
Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.
Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games
Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery
This is not a new concept. When I was growing up they were targeting us with PCs, Nintendo, Fast Food, and Games. Before that they were targeting younger people with smoking, drinking, movies, and music. I guess the difference between my generation and this generation is that things couldn't be as simple as they are now. There wasn't the technology for it. On top of that people had a lot more free time. Now it's go go go. You are always in contact with people, always learning new things, and always have to do something like go to the doctor to get checkups, go to the dentist. There is also a lot more entertainment now then there was when I was young. I watched Star Wars and Indiana Jones over and over again. There wasn't a whole lot like it at the time. Now kids have so much entertainment they can just jump from one thing to the next. I can feel it in myself as well. I have less patience then I used to have with all this technology and entertainment.
Lots of reasons why some people get to make decisions for others. In the case of parents, they decide for their children for many years, because their children lack the knowledge and experience to know what is best for them.
Representative government is frequently preferred over democratic, because the masses can't spend enough time becoming informed on the issues in order to know what is best for them
Corporation leaders often make choices on behalf of shareholders or employees, again, because they've got better knowledge or information and are likely to make better informed choices for the company.
Game Developers have to provide systems that interact in such a way that it is beneficial to the greatest number of players, likely to maximize revenues and be better for the overall health of the game.
There are always good reasons for other folks to make choices on your behalf, and they won't always get it right, no one is infallible, but they are likely to have a greater chance of success in the long run.
You have to be able to accept the fact that you don't really know what's best for you all the time, and trust the people in charge to do so on your behalf.
Are MMO's too easy now? I don't know, not sure they were ever hard, just more time consuming by design but not necessarily any harder.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We are talking about entertainment products for adult players here. I doubt there is good reason why you should make ANY choice for me. Options are good. You pick your game. You pick your difficulty. I pick mine. Better than you pick for me .. and i am sure you don't want me to pick for you.
A developer choosing your difficulty is no different than the developer making every other decision about the game. Who is he to say you should play a fantasy game? Who is he to say you should play a FPS? "He" is the one making the game, who ELSE would decide what it should be like?
As for why anybody would not want a difficulty slider, I've already told you why they're not optimal. You choose to ignore it and go on spouting the same endorsements for it.
I'll come at it from another angle, just for fun, even though telling you things is pointless because you will quite literally just ignore things that don't agree with you. You already have "options." You have the option to play this game, or that game. Having more options in a single game isn't automatically a good thing. It's possible for a developer to spread themselves too thin, rather than focusing on one thing. Difficulty is NO exception to that. It's why there are people who pick Bioware games over Bethesda games. Maybe I don't want one huge open world with a million NPCs if each of those NPC encounters is poorly scripted.
I was reading your post and it made me think about why I seem to want leveling and exploration to be hard. Endgame consists of raids and PvP. I don't like or participate in raids or PvP. I didn't in older MMOs either for the most part outside of duals or being forced into it. Perhaps there is challenge in MMOs at endgame now, but the problem is that isn't something I would compete it. On the flips side I might not mind competing in a battle of attrition to level up or a battle of patience trying to explore, find things, and complete long quests that don't show you where to go via GPS. At least that was my mentality when I was younger and how I played games. I would do small group once in a while and interact with other people via other means like asking them for help or helping them in some way while wandering around the world. I guess the main problem is I feel there isn't much for me to do in MMOs now. The leveling/exploring process is to easy and I have no interest in the endgame content.
Play Diablo 3 then. The leveling process can be as easy as mowing through mobs with no chance of dead, or impossibly hard even if you use all your skills, and tactical options.
Everyone can be fitted somewhere in between.
You do realize that everyone bought Diablo III because they THOUGHT It would be good - not because it was. <g> You seem to be under the impression that Diablo III is some kind of ground breaking game instead of some pathetic attempt to exploit their companies IP.
No one gives a crap - not gamers - and not anyone in the gaming industry. Blizzard could sell 15 million crap on a stick with the power of the Diablo IP - and that's pretty much what they did. Its not just a mediocre game - its one of the most disappointing games in gaming history - right up there with Duke Nukem Forever.
A 3.9 in metacritic? And that's the view of the 'common' person that you seem to think plays the game..
Obviously didnt play diablo 3.
What 3.9? It is 87 on metacritics. I hope you are not naive enough to look at user ratings that are obviously pulled down by haters. "common" people don't go to websites hate & rate.
You don't like it do not mean that it is not good. In fact, if you go to D3 forum here, even many people here like it ... and this place is hostile to all things Blizz.
Not sure if he play or not play any of those .
Sometime he spoke like he ready play them , then sometime he said he never spend any money to buy or subs any game.
It somehow created a paradox .
It is easier to achieve success with your game (or any endeavor) if you pander to the people with low standards, because there are more of them and because it takes less effort and resources.
If you know your audience doesn't care about feeling a sense of danger or accomplishment, then developing your game is going to be fairly simple in comparison to developing a game that requires more of your players.
You also don't have to deal with endless complaints about how difficult your game is. The masses just want a nice comfy game that essentially plays itself while they sit there watching TV or whatever.
This absurd concept of entertainment people attempt to sate themselves with these days is quite strange, but with the influx in popularity of more punishingly challenging games like Dark Souls or DayZ, I hope it's a sign that people are finally realizing how comparatively flat of an experience a typical MMO like WoW provides.
One of the greatest potential strengths of the MMORPG is to have death matter . If it doesn't matter if you die or not, then nothing in the game ends up having any weight to it. You can't accomplish something if there is no real opposition standing in your way.
Games, at their core, are about overcoming challenges, and if developers de-emphasize that too much then their games start to veer into a sort of observational automated process not unlike films or television.
Look at this. Sad days.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/dark-souls-2-patch-will-introduce-new-item-to-reduce-the-difficulty-for-newcomers/1100-6418680/
Luckily, that was just an April fool's joke.