Awww... come on guys... we all know how this is going to turn out.
When the game launches everybody will be on the wrong campaign fighting their friends instead of fighting with their friends... if they get to log in at all.
Second to third month after release everybody will be happy leveling, enjoying the game and so on. PVP in Cyrodiil is the best PVP ever!
After the third month people will start crying about how utterly boring it is to shoot on a wall for fifteen minutes just to destroy it. That all PVP is about is running around in circles with no meaningful PVP at all. Just mindless zerging with absolutely no skill involved. And that Zenixmax rather quickly needs to release a brand new PVP map because Cyrodiil gets really boring fast. And of course all the casual PVE-players finally reaching level 50 start crying about how they need to PVP to do some PVE content.
You know, let's be honest: you simply cannot get meaningful PVP from a game designed for the masses. Because if you want meaningful PVP you have to avoid the masses.
No matter how bad most aspect are from ESO in my vieuw its the pvp side that will carry this game. Cyrodil gave me great hours of play ^^ And i just hated every other aspect of this mmo, from questing to the sub par animations and interface / ui, i hated it all.
But sneaking around in Cyrodil and jump or get jumped just was flat out awesome. I think many pvp fanatics will stay in ESO as it does it better when GW2 ( in my opinion ) And there arent many good big scale mmo's out there.....
It's funny someone complained about this site only giving positive articles for ESO. Last i checked and i check everday, this is the first article I've read that doesn't sound like it was paid for.
In Lineage II people have fun taking keeps and holding them for their guilds, sort of an ownership till they get knocked off .. in Aion, its sort of the same thing, guilds can take forts and keep them till they get knocked off .. either by the NPC faction or player faction ..
I dont care for a system that just makes me have an endless grind for points so i can keep putting them into more skills, to me more skills and the longer someone had to grind for them just sounds like anyone who just started playing is going to be way behind the curve ...
Put a statue of me in some town claiming my accomplishments, let me buy Armor, weapon etc crafting skins that i can only get from PVP'ing .. lot of ways to make people have fun and find a goal for PVP, but dont make me have to grind for points so i can just put them into endless skills ... you only have so many skill slots anyways .. JMHO ... besides, i like to PVP for the FUN OF PVP also .. isnt that what most people are doing on Darkfall UW? with the exception that it has full loot, so there are ways to make PVP fun, with out a point grind to get skills etc .. make it fun, dont make it a have too thing in order to compete.
This article is as real as it gets . Some people will defend the game until their last breath, who knows why, some people will just bash it for the sake of it. What you need to focus are facts, what the game offers and doesn't offer.
Talking about dungeons and quests in Cyrodiil is a lame excuse since you have all of the outside-cyrodiil zones for that. Cyrodiil feels completely empty compared to the PVE zones. Beautiful, but empty.
Just the fact that you can't find enemy faction players while questing in the pve zones, not even in their faction zones, it's insane. Worried about ganking? Just put a PVP toggle on or off feature so players decide for themselves.
This is not a bad game, but right now, its very underwhelming due to the potential it shows.
I actually hope they leave out the themepark ranking system that turned PvP into a carrot on a stick system. The only reason people should need to PvP is that its fun, not because its another grind for skills or items.
This, this and million times this.
I was PVPing in AoC's Kheshatta for 7 hours a day in times when there was no rewards. Good combat system + pvp community is all I need as pvp player.
I just can't see the appeal of fighting in order to conquer generic castle on north-west part of map or defending generic castle in the south of Cyrodiil.
On the other hand, if I could gather a warparty and make a raid on enemy capital city, if for nothing else, but destroying enemy vendors and flight masters (and enemy players while I'm at it), it would be freaking epic.
Originally posted by Satsunoryu End-game PVP concerns are exactly why I haven't pre-ordered. I'm just not convinced there is much more there than what GW2's WvWvW system offered. I was seriously let down by that title.
^^^
ESO pvp is just a revamped version of GW2 instanced WvWvW and nothing like DAOC RvR.
I just can't see the appeal of fighting in order to conquer generic castle on north-west part of map or defending generic castle in the south of Cyrodiil.
On the other hand, if I could gather a warparty and make a raid on enemy capital city, if for nothing else, but destroying enemy vendors and flight masters (and enemy players while I'm at it), it would be freaking epic.
This isn't really directed at you, your post simply brought it to mind... I'd like people to go back and look at feedback toward games from AOC & WAR to SWTOR etc...
The PVP fix people have been clamoring for since has been three faction PVP, "bring back RVR" two faction PVP doesn't work. This has been the chorus to the want song from a good portion of the PVP crowd ( at least here on MMORPG.com) for years. Anything that was faction based was bombarded with this "request". Now that we're getting it: GW2 and now ESO, it turns out it's not enough, now the goal has shifted to, well what about this, what about that?
My point is people need to slow down, and realize they're getting far ahead in their wants, Devs can't keep up. They design games based on the feedback that is current to when they begin their design process. Almost every time though, by the time they release, those goal lines have shifted farther out. This can't work.. There's no way that can work..
Devs have no crystal ball, all they have is metrics and feedback to go on. Which is never quite accurate.Case in point above...
Anyway about your point, Capital sieges would be nice, as it would be another option. However I don't see it being all that different than sieging a keep. As the keeps aren't much different aside from the amount of NPC's around them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Look at Lineage2, there is no factions but pvp is at its best. Lineage2 pvp is the greatest pvp mechanic in mmo. hands down. if you want great pvp, copy lineage2. I think Lineage2 is the greatest mmo in history. imagine lineage2 without private servers it would be official the best mmo. pvp, pve, crafting are all conected to one thing and that is what makes great mmo.
all those instances, easy lvl up, easy gear collecting, bound to character items SUCKS.
I agree with the OP. I"m already burning out a bit and i've only been in 3 beta weekends. ESO is the best PvP on the market right now so i'll be Pre-ordering and playing, but I too am worried about how long it'll last.
Hopefully finding a good guild will fix the issue.
Wait... I've heard this before... The guys from DAoC are gonna make a great RvR game. I think their last attempt was called... uh... Warhammer?
The luster has worn off the "Guys from DAoC". They got lucky once. They couldn't reproduce it with Warhammer, so I'm certainly not expecting anything remarkable here either. And with the muted, Skyrim color scheme (let's see, there was white, grey, brown and more white), I just dunno about ESO.
-- Xix "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
Lol, complain about wanting more grinds why don't ya. A well executed rvr pvp system/zone with a type of action combat has been and is a dream come true for a pvper like myself. Any ranking systems and future additions to Cyrodiil is just a bonus.
BTW Indef tore you a new one, great points. PvP doesn't need to be a gear grind or a progression grind.
Also been in the beta almost 9 months now, past that honeymoon period myself and counting down the days till launch.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
I know it isnt the same - or truly comparable in any real way .. but the only mmo pvp i enjoy year after year is EvE's (and WWIIOnline's but thats even further removed from the discussion).
EvE pvp is fun - because it occurs either when (a) you are trying to do something else and have to react to some crazy bastage trying to kill you (thrill of the unexpected pvp), (b) when you are looking for a fight (your the crazy bastage), or (c) when you are trying to take and hold territory.
ESO will have type (b), and type (b) if you try and pve in the pvp zone. But it doesnt have (c) and (c) is the really long term fun thing .. a reason to pvp other than the fun of it, or because you got caught up in someone else's fun.
After a while "for the fun of it" gets old ...,
Randomly getting ganked or chased around makes trying to do high reward pve stuff have that extra element to it ("i could make a mint doing this .. but have to watch out for crazy bastages") is what makes eve fun in some ways ... developing a hatred for "pirates" adds game content that otherwise would be forced upon the dev writers .. I am always going to hate a real person behind in game actions than those of a scripted npc.
Doing PvE in the AvA zone will have elements of (a) and (b) and i hope they do stuff to make the PvE in the zone be reallly high reward - to attract people to interact with it, drawing the type (b) people in to try and ruin their day.
But in the end - longevity in large scale PvP or AvA has to come from opposing factions trying to rest control of stuff from each other. Skirmishes can be fun, but nothing generates player driven content like wars. The ESO AvA from that i can see will not do this. Control is too fluid and the rewards too few for holding territory that it will just become a "whack a mole" scenario, with no real feeling of there being a reason other than reason (b). And after a while reason (b) will likely not be enough to hold people's interest when some new shiny MMO comes out.
I realise i have a strong bias towards the sandbox model .. at least for PvP / RvR / AvA. And dont get me wrong im pumped to have a go at ESO AvA. I cant wait. But like the OP i have a feeling that in 3-4 months .. maybe 6 i will wander off, possibly back to EvE for another visit - if there isnt more to capturing and holding territory.
On a more detailed note: the reward of becoming the Emperor plus skill line seems very limited. People may say what they want about WoW, one thing I most certainly enjoyed in Vanilla once honour was in was the military ranking system. If you put the effort in you could rise through the ranks over time, and the highest title you earned stayed with you. On the rare occasions I play WoW I still proudly display my Commander rank as the title of my avatar. Its Always nice to see other players with military ranks because you know these were the dedicated PvP'ers in Vanilla
Randomly getting ganked or chased around makes trying to do high reward pve stuff have that extra element to it ("i could make a mint doing this .. but have to watch out for crazy bastages") is what makes eve fun in some ways ... developing a hatred for "pirates" adds game content that otherwise would be forced upon the dev writers .. I am always going to hate a real person behind in game actions than those of a scripted npc.
Doing PvE in the AvA zone will have elements of (a) and (b) and i hope they do stuff to make the PvE in the zone be reallly high reward - to attract people to interact with it, drawing the type (b) people in to try and ruin their day.
This type of behavior is what will hurt the PvE crowd the game is hoping to attract. If I find to meet my PvE goals, I need to do PvP content, that will turn off a not so insignificant part of the population. As it is, I expect to see griefers at most of the skyshard locations just to harass people trying to complete them.
Maybe they can implement a static non PvP version of Cyrodill to satisfy the PvE completionist types.
So much doom and gloom. I would of given you some respect if you waited til 30 days after launch to post something like this. Right now it just seems silly. Do people get paid often to either hype up or tear down a game before the real session begins? Oh wait I answered my own question o.x
Comments
Haha, I take it you played on Darktide.
Awww... come on guys... we all know how this is going to turn out.
When the game launches everybody will be on the wrong campaign fighting their friends instead of fighting with their friends... if they get to log in at all.
Second to third month after release everybody will be happy leveling, enjoying the game and so on. PVP in Cyrodiil is the best PVP ever!
After the third month people will start crying about how utterly boring it is to shoot on a wall for fifteen minutes just to destroy it. That all PVP is about is running around in circles with no meaningful PVP at all. Just mindless zerging with absolutely no skill involved. And that Zenixmax rather quickly needs to release a brand new PVP map because Cyrodiil gets really boring fast. And of course all the casual PVE-players finally reaching level 50 start crying about how they need to PVP to do some PVE content.
You know, let's be honest: you simply cannot get meaningful PVP from a game designed for the masses. Because if you want meaningful PVP you have to avoid the masses.
No matter how bad most aspect are from ESO in my vieuw its the pvp side that will carry this game.
Cyrodil gave me great hours of play ^^
And i just hated every other aspect of this mmo, from questing to the sub par animations and interface / ui, i hated it all.
But sneaking around in Cyrodil and jump or get jumped just was flat out awesome.
I think many pvp fanatics will stay in ESO as it does it better when GW2 ( in my opinion )
And there arent many good big scale mmo's out there.....
I'm starting to like you again MMORPG.com!
In Lineage II people have fun taking keeps and holding them for their guilds, sort of an ownership till they get knocked off .. in Aion, its sort of the same thing, guilds can take forts and keep them till they get knocked off .. either by the NPC faction or player faction ..
I dont care for a system that just makes me have an endless grind for points so i can keep putting them into more skills, to me more skills and the longer someone had to grind for them just sounds like anyone who just started playing is going to be way behind the curve ...
Put a statue of me in some town claiming my accomplishments, let me buy Armor, weapon etc crafting skins that i can only get from PVP'ing .. lot of ways to make people have fun and find a goal for PVP, but dont make me have to grind for points so i can just put them into endless skills ... you only have so many skill slots anyways .. JMHO ... besides, i like to PVP for the FUN OF PVP also .. isnt that what most people are doing on Darkfall UW? with the exception that it has full loot, so there are ways to make PVP fun, with out a point grind to get skills etc .. make it fun, dont make it a have too thing in order to compete.
Sure didn't!
I can't remember how long it took for them to add it, but i'd guess 6 months to a year.
You know what would be an amazing pvp carrot? That 6th ability slot. WANT.
This article is as real as it gets . Some people will defend the game until their last breath, who knows why, some people will just bash it for the sake of it. What you need to focus are facts, what the game offers and doesn't offer.
Talking about dungeons and quests in Cyrodiil is a lame excuse since you have all of the outside-cyrodiil zones for that. Cyrodiil feels completely empty compared to the PVE zones. Beautiful, but empty.
Just the fact that you can't find enemy faction players while questing in the pve zones, not even in their faction zones, it's insane. Worried about ganking? Just put a PVP toggle on or off feature so players decide for themselves.
This is not a bad game, but right now, its very underwhelming due to the potential it shows.
This, this and million times this.
I was PVPing in AoC's Kheshatta for 7 hours a day in times when there was no rewards. Good combat system + pvp community is all I need as pvp player.
I just can't see the appeal of fighting in order to conquer generic castle on north-west part of map or defending generic castle in the south of Cyrodiil.
On the other hand, if I could gather a warparty and make a raid on enemy capital city, if for nothing else, but destroying enemy vendors and flight masters (and enemy players while I'm at it), it would be freaking epic.
^^^
ESO pvp is just a revamped version of GW2 instanced WvWvW and nothing like DAOC RvR.
Fun PvE though.
This isn't really directed at you, your post simply brought it to mind... I'd like people to go back and look at feedback toward games from AOC & WAR to SWTOR etc...
The PVP fix people have been clamoring for since has been three faction PVP, "bring back RVR" two faction PVP doesn't work. This has been the chorus to the want song from a good portion of the PVP crowd ( at least here on MMORPG.com) for years. Anything that was faction based was bombarded with this "request". Now that we're getting it: GW2 and now ESO, it turns out it's not enough, now the goal has shifted to, well what about this, what about that?
My point is people need to slow down, and realize they're getting far ahead in their wants, Devs can't keep up. They design games based on the feedback that is current to when they begin their design process. Almost every time though, by the time they release, those goal lines have shifted farther out. This can't work.. There's no way that can work..
Devs have no crystal ball, all they have is metrics and feedback to go on. Which is never quite accurate.Case in point above...
Anyway about your point, Capital sieges would be nice, as it would be another option. However I don't see it being all that different than sieging a keep. As the keeps aren't much different aside from the amount of NPC's around them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Look at Lineage2, there is no factions but pvp is at its best. Lineage2 pvp is the greatest pvp mechanic in mmo. hands down. if you want great pvp, copy lineage2. I think Lineage2 is the greatest mmo in history. imagine lineage2 without private servers it would be official the best mmo. pvp, pve, crafting are all conected to one thing and that is what makes great mmo.
all those instances, easy lvl up, easy gear collecting, bound to character items SUCKS.
I agree with the OP. I"m already burning out a bit and i've only been in 3 beta weekends. ESO is the best PvP on the market right now so i'll be Pre-ordering and playing, but I too am worried about how long it'll last.
Hopefully finding a good guild will fix the issue.
Wait... I've heard this before... The guys from DAoC are gonna make a great RvR game. I think their last attempt was called... uh... Warhammer?
The luster has worn off the "Guys from DAoC". They got lucky once. They couldn't reproduce it with Warhammer, so I'm certainly not expecting anything remarkable here either. And with the muted, Skyrim color scheme (let's see, there was white, grey, brown and more white), I just dunno about ESO.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
Lol, complain about wanting more grinds why don't ya. A well executed rvr pvp system/zone with a type of action combat has been and is a dream come true for a pvper like myself. Any ranking systems and future additions to Cyrodiil is just a bonus.
BTW Indef tore you a new one, great points. PvP doesn't need to be a gear grind or a progression grind.
Also been in the beta almost 9 months now, past that honeymoon period myself and counting down the days till launch.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
I know it isnt the same - or truly comparable in any real way .. but the only mmo pvp i enjoy year after year is EvE's (and WWIIOnline's but thats even further removed from the discussion).
EvE pvp is fun - because it occurs either when (a) you are trying to do something else and have to react to some crazy bastage trying to kill you (thrill of the unexpected pvp), (b) when you are looking for a fight (your the crazy bastage), or (c) when you are trying to take and hold territory.
ESO will have type (b), and type (b) if you try and pve in the pvp zone. But it doesnt have (c) and (c) is the really long term fun thing .. a reason to pvp other than the fun of it, or because you got caught up in someone else's fun.
After a while "for the fun of it" gets old ...,
Randomly getting ganked or chased around makes trying to do high reward pve stuff have that extra element to it ("i could make a mint doing this .. but have to watch out for crazy bastages") is what makes eve fun in some ways ... developing a hatred for "pirates" adds game content that otherwise would be forced upon the dev writers .. I am always going to hate a real person behind in game actions than those of a scripted npc.
Doing PvE in the AvA zone will have elements of (a) and (b) and i hope they do stuff to make the PvE in the zone be reallly high reward - to attract people to interact with it, drawing the type (b) people in to try and ruin their day.
But in the end - longevity in large scale PvP or AvA has to come from opposing factions trying to rest control of stuff from each other. Skirmishes can be fun, but nothing generates player driven content like wars. The ESO AvA from that i can see will not do this. Control is too fluid and the rewards too few for holding territory that it will just become a "whack a mole" scenario, with no real feeling of there being a reason other than reason (b). And after a while reason (b) will likely not be enough to hold people's interest when some new shiny MMO comes out.
I realise i have a strong bias towards the sandbox model .. at least for PvP / RvR / AvA. And dont get me wrong im pumped to have a go at ESO AvA. I cant wait. But like the OP i have a feeling that in 3-4 months .. maybe 6 i will wander off, possibly back to EvE for another visit - if there isnt more to capturing and holding territory.
/end ramble
The man is right !
Other then that I can only say: DF !!!
On a more detailed note: the reward of becoming the Emperor plus skill line seems very limited. People may say what they want about WoW, one thing I most certainly enjoyed in Vanilla once honour was in was the military ranking system. If you put the effort in you could rise through the ranks over time, and the highest title you earned stayed with you. On the rare occasions I play WoW I still proudly display my Commander rank as the title of my avatar. Its Always nice to see other players with military ranks because you know these were the dedicated PvP'ers in Vanilla
This type of behavior is what will hurt the PvE crowd the game is hoping to attract. If I find to meet my PvE goals, I need to do PvP content, that will turn off a not so insignificant part of the population. As it is, I expect to see griefers at most of the skyshard locations just to harass people trying to complete them.
Maybe they can implement a static non PvP version of Cyrodill to satisfy the PvE completionist types.