If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.
why?
Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?
Sure, but that is a device to get money from whales. Not a game. Unless there are some examples GAMES elsewhere in the world that have similar rules and is accepted as a game that I cant think of. Im not trying to hard though.
Why isn't that a game? Plenty of games are there to make money off whales.
"Accepted as a game"? By whom .. .lots of players accepting f2p p2w mmo products as games ... are you suggesting they are playing something else? If so, it is just semantics anyway.
No I am saying that is not a game in any other entertainment. Poker maybe is the closest.
You cannot name one other game outside of the industry that has similar rules and is considered a game, by say....anyone.
I don't teach children to slip the referee a 20 before a soccer game so they bypass the offsides rule.
well ... f2p cash shop is now the official "rules" of many MMORP GAME. Whoever design the game decides.
Let me put it this way .. if you go into a gamestop and ask for a f2p game .. will anyone refuse to acknowledge that f2p games are not games like you do?
On this site its a P2W game when players can get white shoes insteed for the ordinairy black shoes in the game, doesn't matter if the only difference is color it's P2W, to make it easy if there is a cash shop then the game it's P2W atleast thats what alot of gamers (haters) here think.
So games like WOW, LOL, GW2, TSW, ESO and so on are P2W on this site because the haters on this site don't play games they just hate.
Every game is P2W if you really, really think about it unless it's totally free from box price and have no cash shop or sub guess it would be hard to call a game like that P2W but if you give they guys here a chance they just might make it
Of course this is not the case of everybody here, we do have lots real gamers here aswell and in some way it's not that strange that the hate sometimes comes up.
If you look a forum for football (Soccer) there will be lots of, "your team has no talant" or lots of other things they hate each other for.
When you put thousands of ppl in the same forum with different tastes in games then it will always take one step to far a few times.
Especially when a new game arrives then you can almost judge the game by the huge amount of posts that people post just hating a game they have never tryied and never will.
Why?
Because of passion for some, defending their game almost without limits.
Or for being just a prick arguing in one thread against the game and chears for it in the next just to be anoying and loving every moment of it.
Some are just haters, players that max out a char in record time and then quits and spreads the hate on forums.
Then we have the "Veterans", hanging on to there old game title and calls everything a rip off or saying stuff like "Back in the good old days when we played DaoC, EQ, Ultima online, never has a game been as good as this bla, bla, bla"
Or the negative guys/girls, everybody loves a game but they always find something just a little thing whatever in a game and they complain about it.
Then there are the liars, claiming stuff that isn't true just to put a game down.
And there are many many more types of people.
Me personally have many flaws aswell and often find myself defending my game to the point were I get a warning or tempban from the site or at sometimes I just hate a game myself.
The big question is why the hell do I enter a thread of for say WOW and comment negative?
Cause I do, most of us do stuff like this.
Maybe it's because my boss at work plays wow and he is a real D...Head, maybe thats why I feel the need to comment in a negative way about a game.
Nah!
After reading all this crap I just wrote I just think I am boared at work with nothing else to do
PEACE!!!!!!!
oh btw GW2 rocks and every other game, ever made is just a ripoff and they suck!
If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.
why?
Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?
Sure, but that is a device to get money from whales. Not a game. Unless there are some examples GAMES elsewhere in the world that have similar rules and is accepted as a game that I cant think of. Im not trying to hard though.
Why isn't that a game? Plenty of games are there to make money off whales.
"Accepted as a game"? By whom .. .lots of players accepting f2p p2w mmo products as games ... are you suggesting they are playing something else? If so, it is just semantics anyway.
No I am saying that is not a game in any other entertainment. Poker maybe is the closest.
You cannot name one other game outside of the industry that has similar rules and is considered a game, by say....anyone.
I don't teach children to slip the referee a 20 before a soccer game so they bypass the offsides rule.
well ... f2p cash shop is now the official "rules" of many MMORP GAME. Whoever design the game decides.
Let me put it this way .. if you go into a gamestop and ask for a f2p game .. will anyone refuse to acknowledge that f2p games are not games like you do?
Since when do you dance around the questions?
yes gamestop would tell me they sell games.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I personally agree with the op. 200 people are playing the same game n. One buys the expansion the other doesn't. He now has access to higher levels and more powerful gear because he paid more money.
No difference to me.
Among that the expansion has higher gear and levels anyway.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
"If a man can not say what he means, a man can not mean what he say's" T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
Some seem to not understand my argument. I apologize as my wording is probably what's confusing.
I am not debating on whether or not Xpacks and MMORPG companies should supply content and raids new classes etc. etc. free of charge.
What I am debating about is whether player's should always be on an equal footing regarding "levels and skill sets" only. I don't care if player's have to grind the same mob for a month to achieve max level without the purchase of an Xpack.
I believe fair gameplay requires an even footing regarding level's and skill set's, Xpack's be damned.
Then you can't use the term P2W as it applies to MMO's. If your asking if someone buying an expansion has an advantage over someone that hasn't upgraded their game, then the answer is an obvious yes, but this is just common sense. Trying to wrap the argument into a controversial term such as P2W is where my bit gets flipped.
I understand and respect your point.
P2W has very negative connotation's. Some people take the term as a personal slight against them, they shouldn't.
What is the definition of P2W?
IMHO "purchasing an advantage over other player's" would fall under this definition. An Xpack makes an interesting debate. There are fair arguments on either side. IMHO tying character level's and skill sets to an expansion pack is just a marketing scheme to make the "need to purchase"
Thank you for your intelligent response.
Expansions have been the core business model of games of all types for decades. The term P2W is new, tied to micro-transactions where people spend money incrementally in a short period of time and continuously to improve their character over someone that doesn't. Therefore I cant and don't lump things together creating general terms out of specifics
Everything is P2W, if you don't pay then you can't win, breaking it down like this makes everything p2w, If you don't pay your sub in wow you can't really win and this gives all the other players and advanage over you
If there is money involved then in some sick way it could be considered to be P2W.
Everything is P2W, if you don't pay then you can't win, breaking it down like this makes everything p2w, If you don't pay your sub in wow you can't really win and this gives all the other players and advanage over you
If there is money involved then in some sick way it could be considered to be P2W.
If you aren't paying your WoW sub... couldn't you kind of consider that winning hehe
It's kind of sad what happens to things when big money gets involved.
Everything is P2W, if you don't pay then you can't win, breaking it down like this makes everything p2w, If you don't pay your sub in wow you can't really win and this gives all the other players and advanage over you
If there is money involved then in some sick way it could be considered to be P2W.
If you aren't paying your WoW sub... couldn't you kind of consider that winning hehe
It's kind of sad what happens to things when big money gets involved.
So what is more important for a GAME?
Fairness or access to all?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Everything is P2W, if you don't pay then you can't win, breaking it down like this makes everything p2w, If you don't pay your sub in wow you can't really win and this gives all the other players and advanage over you
If there is money involved then in some sick way it could be considered to be P2W.
If you aren't paying your WoW sub... couldn't you kind of consider that winning hehe
It's kind of sad what happens to things when big money gets involved.
So what is more important for a GAME?
Fairness or access to all?
That's a tough question and really depends on the game.
Take a game like Monopoly, you can't have one without the other.
Everything is P2W, if you don't pay then you can't win, breaking it down like this makes everything p2w, If you don't pay your sub in wow you can't really win and this gives all the other players and advanage over you
If there is money involved then in some sick way it could be considered to be P2W.
If you aren't paying your WoW sub... couldn't you kind of consider that winning hehe
It's kind of sad what happens to things when big money gets involved.
So what is more important for a GAME?
Fairness or access to all?
That's a tough question and really depends on the game.
Take a game like Monopoly, you can't have one without the other.
Hmm, I think your above my comprehension level. I don't understand the second sentence.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing
Discuss
You are not purchasing an advantage, you are purchasing progression. Those without the xpac do not follow you up, they stay put and they play with those on their level. In PvP (the only place a valid P2W argument is to be had) you fall into level brackets. Because most xpacs come out with level cap increases those with the xpac come into new brackets, those without, stay the same. As such, no one is competitively ahead of the next person because you are unable to play with one another.
I should also note that some MMO's who allow the upscale and downscale of classes in PvP also normalize the gear and stats to create a balance.
WoW for example had heirloom gear. A player who has played for years will have a very powerful Heirloom built twink. Those who just started the game, will not. There is a competitive difference in PvP in this case. However, people never seem to count 'time' as a currency.
If someone chooses to spend time into their characters improvement then that's the currency they pay. I do not believe people whom pay should be demonized either. If you work a 12 hour day and can get 3 hours online a week and want to be competitive, then sure, pay to do so if you wish.
Those who do not wish to pay, tend to have a lot more time on their hands, not uncommon to see people online for about 10 hours a time.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing
Discuss
You are not purchasing an advantage, you are purchasing progression. Those without the xpac do not follow you up, they stay put and they play with those on their level. In PvP (the only place a valid P2W argument is to be had) you fall into level brackets. Because most xpacs come out with level cap increases those with the xpac come into new brackets, those without, stay the same. As such, no one is competitively ahead of the next person because you are unable to play with one another.
I should also note that some MMO's who allow the upscale and downscale of classes in PvP also normalize the gear and stats to create a balance.
WoW for example had heirloom gear. A player who has played for years will have a very powerful Heirloom built twink. Those who just started the game, will not. There is a competitive difference in PvP in this case. However, people never seem to count 'time' as a currency.
If someone chooses to spend time into their characters improvement then that's the currency they pay. I do not believe people whom pay should be demonized either. If you work a 12 hour day and can get 3 hours online a week and want to be competitive, then sure, pay to do so if you wish.
Those who do not wish to pay, tend to have a lot more time on their hands, not uncommon to see people online for about 10 hours a time.
That's not how it happens though. People with time can also pay and they are typically the ones who are paying. If you can only play a few hours in a progression game, no matter what you will be disadvantaged for a long time in a typical mmo. This is because of bad design. Customers shouldn't pay for that.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Expansions are also cash grabs in games that require a sub obviously. You know, when you are already paying for the monthly sub you should get access to everything without any further payments.
At the beginning it seems pretty decent at least for a browser game and the cash shop is fully optional. The idea is that you build up armies to follow you. So after you've been playing a month it pretty much becomes a PVP game where you play duels with other people's armies.
So you've spent a month or 2 building up your army and think you are ready to enter some tournaments. Well, a lot of people have these special units that are only available in the cash shop. They are way more powerful than normal units and the combat is just a numbers game so you will never beat an army with a lot of those paid units in it. I saw some people who had thousands of dollars worth of units in their armies (for a throwaway browser game). Who wins the tournaments is literally determined by who spends the most real money.
I don't think I've actually seen an MMO which is blatantly P2W. Certainly having to buy an expansion doesn't make a game P2W. It is just part of the cost of the game. Why would you even try to play the game without the expansion if you really enjoy it?
Originally posted by Kuinn Expansions are also cash grabs in games that require a sub obviously. You know, when you are already paying for the monthly sub you should get access to everything without any further payments.
Blizzard could give you a free expansion every month, and still be swimming in cash. When the early mmo's first introduced subs, ever expanding content was one of their main justification's.
Seems like the more millions they rake in, the cheaper they get.
At the beginning it seems pretty decent at least for a browser game and the cash shop is fully optional. The idea is that you build up armies to follow you. So after you've been playing a month it pretty much becomes a PVP game where you play duels with other people's armies.
So you've spent a month or 2 building up your army and think you are ready to enter some tournaments. Well, a lot of people have these special units that are only available in the cash shop. They are way more powerful than normal units and the combat is just a numbers game so you will never beat an army with a lot of those paid units in it. I saw some people who had thousands of dollars worth of units in their armies (for a throwaway browser game). Who wins the tournaments is literally determined by who spends the most real money.
I don't think I've actually seen an MMO which is blatantly P2W. Certainly having to buy an expansion doesn't make a game P2W. It is just part of the cost of the game. Why would you even try to play the game without the expansion if you really enjoy it?
That's the type of monetary tactics that the term was pretty much originally coined for. I've seen the term bent and twisted so much on the boards that an Xpack pretty much falls into the popular definition of the day. I figured the topic would make for an interesting debate.
Originally posted by Kuinn Expansions are also cash grabs in games that require a sub obviously. You know, when you are already paying for the monthly sub you should get access to everything without any further payments.
Blizzard could give you a free expansion every month, and still be swimming in cash. When the early mmo's first introduced subs, ever expanding content was one of their main justification's.
Seems like the more millions they rake in, the cheaper they get.
This is true!
One of the biggest factors to why I left WOW is because the greed, Blizzard is the best company out there to steal your money and the funniest part is that most wow players defend them, they think it's ok to buy every expansion, pay sub and now they also have microtransactions with lvl boosts.
For me to play this game with my family members would mean that I would have to start working weekends to afford it. We are five members in our family that plays mmo for us to play world of warcraft would cost 11000 swedish kronor and this would be 1723 US dollars a year and then I am not including any microtransaction cause if we all want lvl boosts and stuff then my kids would have to get a job aswell.
How can they justify an amount like that? Do they really need all that money? hell no!
But since everybody loves the game and nobody quits then they can pretty much drain every dollar out of their playerbase and they will. So no one can really blame them for making loads of money since nobody seems to mind the price.
If Blizzard were true to their gamers then they would release the expansions for free cause everybody is paying sub and box prices.
If you have to buy something to be competitive in PvP, then it's P2W. If you have to buy something from the cash shop in order to complete PvE content or to make the completion of PvE content possible, then it's P2W. Having to buy the expansion that gives a player access to the PvE content falls under having to buy something from the cash shop to complete the content.
Though, in that context it doesn't seem like a bad thing. I would much rather buy an expansion than buy armor that makes me competitive in PvEvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
well ... f2p cash shop is now the official "rules" of many MMORP GAME. Whoever design the game decides.
Let me put it this way .. if you go into a gamestop and ask for a f2p game .. will anyone refuse to acknowledge that f2p games are not games like you do?
On this site its a P2W game when players can get white shoes insteed for the ordinairy black shoes in the game, doesn't matter if the only difference is color it's P2W, to make it easy if there is a cash shop then the game it's P2W atleast thats what alot of gamers (haters) here think.
So games like WOW, LOL, GW2, TSW, ESO and so on are P2W on this site because the haters on this site don't play games they just hate.
Every game is P2W if you really, really think about it unless it's totally free from box price and have no cash shop or sub guess it would be hard to call a game like that P2W but if you give they guys here a chance they just might make it
Of course this is not the case of everybody here, we do have lots real gamers here aswell and in some way it's not that strange that the hate sometimes comes up.
If you look a forum for football (Soccer) there will be lots of, "your team has no talant" or lots of other things they hate each other for.
When you put thousands of ppl in the same forum with different tastes in games then it will always take one step to far a few times.
Especially when a new game arrives then you can almost judge the game by the huge amount of posts that people post just hating a game they have never tryied and never will.
Why?
Because of passion for some, defending their game almost without limits.
Or for being just a prick arguing in one thread against the game and chears for it in the next just to be anoying and loving every moment of it.
Some are just haters, players that max out a char in record time and then quits and spreads the hate on forums.
Then we have the "Veterans", hanging on to there old game title and calls everything a rip off or saying stuff like "Back in the good old days when we played DaoC, EQ, Ultima online, never has a game been as good as this bla, bla, bla"
Or the negative guys/girls, everybody loves a game but they always find something just a little thing whatever in a game and they complain about it.
Then there are the liars, claiming stuff that isn't true just to put a game down.
And there are many many more types of people.
Me personally have many flaws aswell and often find myself defending my game to the point were I get a warning or tempban from the site or at sometimes I just hate a game myself.
The big question is why the hell do I enter a thread of for say WOW and comment negative?
Cause I do, most of us do stuff like this.
Maybe it's because my boss at work plays wow and he is a real D...Head, maybe thats why I feel the need to comment in a negative way about a game.
Nah!
After reading all this crap I just wrote I just think I am boared at work with nothing else to do
PEACE!!!!!!!
oh btw GW2 rocks and every other game, ever made is just a ripoff and they suck!
Since when do you dance around the questions?
yes gamestop would tell me they sell games.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
No. You are accessing new content.
Are we really this bored?
No difference to me.
Among that the expansion has higher gear and levels anyway.
Expansions have been the core business model of games of all types for decades. The term P2W is new, tied to micro-transactions where people spend money incrementally in a short period of time and continuously to improve their character over someone that doesn't. Therefore I cant and don't lump things together creating general terms out of specifics
Everything is P2W, if you don't pay then you can't win, breaking it down like this makes everything p2w, If you don't pay your sub in wow you can't really win and this gives all the other players and advanage over you
If there is money involved then in some sick way it could be considered to be P2W.
If you aren't paying your WoW sub... couldn't you kind of consider that winning hehe
It's kind of sad what happens to things when big money gets involved.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
So what is more important for a GAME?
Fairness or access to all?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
That's a tough question and really depends on the game.
Take a game like Monopoly, you can't have one without the other.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Hmm, I think your above my comprehension level. I don't understand the second sentence.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
This is the first P2W that is considered to be a good P2W
You are not purchasing an advantage, you are purchasing progression. Those without the xpac do not follow you up, they stay put and they play with those on their level. In PvP (the only place a valid P2W argument is to be had) you fall into level brackets. Because most xpacs come out with level cap increases those with the xpac come into new brackets, those without, stay the same. As such, no one is competitively ahead of the next person because you are unable to play with one another.
I should also note that some MMO's who allow the upscale and downscale of classes in PvP also normalize the gear and stats to create a balance.
WoW for example had heirloom gear. A player who has played for years will have a very powerful Heirloom built twink. Those who just started the game, will not. There is a competitive difference in PvP in this case. However, people never seem to count 'time' as a currency.
If someone chooses to spend time into their characters improvement then that's the currency they pay. I do not believe people whom pay should be demonized either. If you work a 12 hour day and can get 3 hours online a week and want to be competitive, then sure, pay to do so if you wish.
Those who do not wish to pay, tend to have a lot more time on their hands, not uncommon to see people online for about 10 hours a time.
That's not how it happens though. People with time can also pay and they are typically the ones who are paying. If you can only play a few hours in a progression game, no matter what you will be disadvantaged for a long time in a typical mmo. This is because of bad design. Customers shouldn't pay for that.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I support this. Guild banks should be ripped off at every chance.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Some people don't seem to understand what P2W actually means. Here is a P2W game I unfortunately wasted quite a lot of time on:
http://www.ageofchampions.com/
At the beginning it seems pretty decent at least for a browser game and the cash shop is fully optional. The idea is that you build up armies to follow you. So after you've been playing a month it pretty much becomes a PVP game where you play duels with other people's armies.
So you've spent a month or 2 building up your army and think you are ready to enter some tournaments. Well, a lot of people have these special units that are only available in the cash shop. They are way more powerful than normal units and the combat is just a numbers game so you will never beat an army with a lot of those paid units in it. I saw some people who had thousands of dollars worth of units in their armies (for a throwaway browser game). Who wins the tournaments is literally determined by who spends the most real money.
I don't think I've actually seen an MMO which is blatantly P2W. Certainly having to buy an expansion doesn't make a game P2W. It is just part of the cost of the game. Why would you even try to play the game without the expansion if you really enjoy it?
Blizzard could give you a free expansion every month, and still be swimming in cash. When the early mmo's first introduced subs, ever expanding content was one of their main justification's.
Seems like the more millions they rake in, the cheaper they get.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
That's the type of monetary tactics that the term was pretty much originally coined for. I've seen the term bent and twisted so much on the boards that an Xpack pretty much falls into the popular definition of the day. I figured the topic would make for an interesting debate.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
This is true!
One of the biggest factors to why I left WOW is because the greed, Blizzard is the best company out there to steal your money and the funniest part is that most wow players defend them, they think it's ok to buy every expansion, pay sub and now they also have microtransactions with lvl boosts.
For me to play this game with my family members would mean that I would have to start working weekends to afford it. We are five members in our family that plays mmo for us to play world of warcraft would cost 11000 swedish kronor and this would be 1723 US dollars a year and then I am not including any microtransaction cause if we all want lvl boosts and stuff then my kids would have to get a job aswell.
How can they justify an amount like that? Do they really need all that money? hell no!
But since everybody loves the game and nobody quits then they can pretty much drain every dollar out of their playerbase and they will. So no one can really blame them for making loads of money since nobody seems to mind the price.
If Blizzard were true to their gamers then they would release the expansions for free cause everybody is paying sub and box prices.
If you have to buy something to be competitive in PvP, then it's P2W. If you have to buy something from the cash shop in order to complete PvE content or to make the completion of PvE content possible, then it's P2W. Having to buy the expansion that gives a player access to the PvE content falls under having to buy something from the cash shop to complete the content.
Though, in that context it doesn't seem like a bad thing. I would much rather buy an expansion than buy armor that makes me competitive in PvEvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.