I've actually seen a lot of expansions ruin once good games. They usually are inevitable because people get bored an need something new to do. If they don't get something new to do they won't keep playing the game indefinitely. The big difference in my eyes is an expansions includes everything in one price. Everyone is on the same playing field more or less. A micro transaction comes on a pay per item basis and items are sold in game. Different people will acquire different items via real money in game. I don't see buying an expansion pack for 30 dollars (with everything included) nearly as bad as putting individual items up for sale in game. Most people can afford an upgrade every few months and the upgrade is actually worth the cost. On a per item basis it's usually just a cash grab that imbalances the game.
If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.
why?
Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?
Sure, but that is a device to get money from whales. Not a game. Unless there are some examples GAMES elsewhere in the world that have similar rules and is accepted as a game that I cant think of. Im not trying to hard though.
Why isn't that a game? Plenty of games are there to make money off whales.
"Accepted as a game"? By whom .. .lots of players accepting f2p p2w mmo products as games ... are you suggesting they are playing something else? If so, it is just semantics anyway.
lasrit, have you every thought of working for a PR company for F2P themeparks? That sort of crap about expansions comes straight from their PR companies in my opinion.
They want you to think there is nothing wrong with the F2P P2W/gambling model. So they come up with this sort of rubbish to make what they are doing now seem like what has gone before.
If you throw mud enough it sticks, keep trying and maybe more players will believe a content upgrade is P2W.
lasrit, have you every thought of working for a PR company for F2P themeparks? That sort of crap about expansions comes straight from their PR companies in my opinion.
They want you to think there is nothing wrong with the F2P P2W/gambling model. So they come up with this sort of rubbish to make what they are doing now seem like what has gone before.
If you throw mud enough it sticks, keep trying and maybe more players will believe a content upgrade is P2W.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing
Discuss
Those who don't pay for the expansion, do not take part in the content they provide, thus it cannot be P2W against those who don't pay for it and those who do, all have the equal opportunity for the content and spoils.
Silly flame-starter thread, but i'll let it slide.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing
Discuss
Those who don't pay for the expansion, do not take part in the content they provide, thus it cannot be P2W against those who don't pay for it and those who do, all have the equal opportunity for the content and spoils.
Silly flame-starter thread, but i'll let it slide.
On a PVE server I would agree, PVP different story.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing
Discuss
Those who don't pay for the expansion, do not take part in the content they provide, thus it cannot be P2W against those who don't pay for it and those who do, all have the equal opportunity for the content and spoils.
Silly flame-starter thread, but i'll let it slide.
On a PVE server I would agree, PVP different story.
Very much so. An expansion is p2w if a MMO has pvp.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing
Discuss
Those who don't pay for the expansion, do not take part in the content they provide, thus it cannot be P2W against those who don't pay for it and those who do, all have the equal opportunity for the content and spoils.
Silly flame-starter thread, but i'll let it slide.
On a PVE server I would agree, PVP different story.
Nope, not really. Those who do not purchase the continuation to the game as it is meant as expansions are, are not eligible to that content, thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing. It is not P2W.
All expansion i know of, expand the set universe, level caps, skills, items, etc. Not just one characters power(s).
Calling expansions P2W is like calling Star Wars: A New Hope; a "scam" because the story unfolds in 3 separate episodes (6 if you want to hump the dots). They're a CONTINUATION to the original, not an item or a power you purchase.
If Star Wars would've added a phone number with the end credits saying: "Call 1800-KNOWTHETRUTH for the whole story for 19.95$" .. that would be P2W.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
This thread is a stellar example of cognitive bias.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
This thread is a stellar example of cognitive bias.
One more reason to the list: Why F2P(P2W) is the devils work. Also the current MMO-generation..
You used to get barely 5-20hrs of gameplay for 30-50$ (another world, prince of persia etc).. nowadays people are getting hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay for that same price and still they bitch and moan "I WANT MOAR, I'M ENTITLED!"
Nope, not really. Those who do not purchase the continuation to the game as it is meant as expansions are, are not eligible to that content, thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing. It is not P2W.
Those who do not purchase p2w items are not eligible to that item thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing.
Except you change the p2w item name to an 'expansion', there is no difference. It is the same logic.
Expansions are generally sequel content. So if you want to participate in the next part of the story, you need to buy access to the content. The choice is there, so no.
When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.
This thread is a stellar example of cognitive bias.
One more reason to the list: Why F2P(P2W) is the devils work. Also the current MMO-generation..
You used to get barely 5-20hrs of gameplay for 30-50$ (another world, prince of persia etc).. nowadays people are getting hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay for that same price and still they bitch and moan "I WANT MOAR, I'M ENTITLED!"
Are you providing an example of what he said or did you just not read the link ?
Taking wow as an example, people with an expansion and people without one are practically isolated so there isn't really much one gains over another person not having it, since you never really interact, with one exception pvp servers in the older open world. In that sense it's effectively p2w.
Those who do not purchase p2w items are not eligible to that item thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing.
Except you change the p2w item name to an 'expansion', there is no difference. It is the same logic.
You really don't see any difference between buying a powerful item in the cash shop and earning that same item as part of expanded game play? You can't understand what makes one much worse than the other?
*sigh* I bet soon there will be games that just have a magic "I win" button that immediately makes you max level with all the best gear and "gameplay" will be walking around town showing off. We're already have way there thanks to Blizzard/Turbine/SOE.
Those who do not purchase p2w items are not eligible to that item thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing.
Except you change the p2w item name to an 'expansion', there is no difference. It is the same logic.
You really don't see any difference between buying a powerful item in the cash shop and earning that same item as part of expanded game play? You can't understand what makes one much worse than the other?
*sigh* I bet soon there will be games that just have a magic "I win" button that immediately makes you max level with all the best gear and "gameplay" will be walking around town showing off. We're already have way there thanks to Blizzard/Turbine/SOE.
I like to do comparisons to other multiplayer games out there such as sports. We could say that an expansion is like a sport adding an expansion team and possible new rules. A micro transaction is like being able to pay for an advantage during the course of the game through items because one team has more money then another team. Isn't that why they put the salary cap in place in most sports?
You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.
How am I arguing for a game to remain static? Did I argue for no new power or skills? No... nothing of the sort
No I'm asking the question:
If an existing player has to pay money in order to remain competitive, (not be one shotted and have a chance for survival) does this make a game P2W?
Of course new skills and gear will give those who buy the expansion a big advantage in PVP over those who don't. You are arguing for the game to remain static because there's no way new content with appropriate rewards and progression won't give those who play it a big advantage. But again I ask is that a bad thing? If you're really enjoying the game why not pay like $30 or so for an expansion which presumably has some fun expanded content, not just bigger items and levels?
Your problem is that you seem to assume that they promised to provide you all content forever with the monthly sub fee when expansions are usually part of the cost of MMOs (with a few exceptions like EVE).
*sigh* I bet soon there will be games that just have a magic "I win" button that immediately makes you max level with all the best gear and "gameplay" will be walking around town showing off. We're already have way there thanks to Blizzard/Turbine/SOE.
nah .. given how great the D3 difficulty slider is, i don't think i need to worry about a "I win" button anytime soon from Blizz.
If you believe there is even a thread of logic in your post and its not solely for entertainment purposes then I'm scared about what this world is coming to collectively.
"If a man can not say what he means, a man can not mean what he say's" T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
Some seem to not understand my argument. I apologize as my wording is probably what's confusing.
I am not debating on whether or not Xpacks and MMORPG companies should supply content and raids new classes etc. etc. free of charge.
What I am debating about is whether player's should always be on an equal footing regarding "levels and skill sets" only. I don't care if player's have to grind the same mob for a month to achieve max level without the purchase of an Xpack.
I believe fair gameplay requires an even footing regarding level's and skill set's, Xpack's be damned.
"If a man can not say what he means, a man can not mean what he say's" T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
Some seem to not understand my argument. I apologize as my wording is probably what's confusing.
I am not debating on whether or not Xpacks and MMORPG companies should supply content and raids new classes etc. etc. free of charge.
What I am debating about is whether player's should always be on an equal footing regarding "levels and skill sets" only. I don't care if player's have to grind the same mob for a month to achieve max level without the purchase of an Xpack.
I believe fair gameplay requires an even footing regarding level's and skill set's, Xpack's be damned.
Then you can't use the term P2W as it applies to MMO's. If your asking if someone buying an expansion has an advantage over someone that hasn't upgraded their game, then the answer is an obvious yes, but this is just common sense. Trying to wrap the argument into a controversial term such as P2W is where my bit gets flipped.
If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.
why?
Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?
Sure, but that is a device to get money from whales. Not a game. Unless there are some examples GAMES elsewhere in the world that have similar rules and is accepted as a game that I cant think of. Im not trying to hard though.
Why isn't that a game? Plenty of games are there to make money off whales.
"Accepted as a game"? By whom .. .lots of players accepting f2p p2w mmo products as games ... are you suggesting they are playing something else? If so, it is just semantics anyway.
No I am saying that is not a game in any other entertainment. Poker maybe is the closest.
You cannot name one other game outside of the industry that has similar rules and is considered a game, by say....anyone.
I don't teach children to slip the referee a 20 before a soccer game so they bypass the offsides rule.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"If a man can not say what he means, a man can not mean what he say's" T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
Some seem to not understand my argument. I apologize as my wording is probably what's confusing.
I am not debating on whether or not Xpacks and MMORPG companies should supply content and raids new classes etc. etc. free of charge.
What I am debating about is whether player's should always be on an equal footing regarding "levels and skill sets" only. I don't care if player's have to grind the same mob for a month to achieve max level without the purchase of an Xpack.
I believe fair gameplay requires an even footing regarding level's and skill set's, Xpack's be damned.
You are capped at the same price as everyone else. I don't care for the way expansions are done, so I don't play those games.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
"If a man can not say what he means, a man can not mean what he say's" T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
Some seem to not understand my argument. I apologize as my wording is probably what's confusing.
I am not debating on whether or not Xpacks and MMORPG companies should supply content and raids new classes etc. etc. free of charge.
What I am debating about is whether player's should always be on an equal footing regarding "levels and skill sets" only. I don't care if player's have to grind the same mob for a month to achieve max level without the purchase of an Xpack.
I believe fair gameplay requires an even footing regarding level's and skill set's, Xpack's be damned.
Then you can't use the term P2W as it applies to MMO's. If your asking if someone buying an expansion has an advantage over someone that hasn't upgraded their game, then the answer is an obvious yes, but this is just common sense. Trying to wrap the argument into a controversial term such as P2W is where my bit gets flipped.
I understand and respect your point.
P2W has very negative connotation's. Some people take the term as a personal slight against them, they shouldn't.
What is the definition of P2W?
IMHO "purchasing an advantage over other player's" would fall under this definition. An Xpack makes an interesting debate. There are fair arguments on either side. IMHO tying character level's and skill sets to an expansion pack is just a marketing scheme to make the "need to purchase"
Comments
Na.... that's called B2P
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Why isn't that a game? Plenty of games are there to make money off whales.
"Accepted as a game"? By whom .. .lots of players accepting f2p p2w mmo products as games ... are you suggesting they are playing something else? If so, it is just semantics anyway.
lasrit, have you every thought of working for a PR company for F2P themeparks? That sort of crap about expansions comes straight from their PR companies in my opinion.
They want you to think there is nothing wrong with the F2P P2W/gambling model. So they come up with this sort of rubbish to make what they are doing now seem like what has gone before.
If you throw mud enough it sticks, keep trying and maybe more players will believe a content upgrade is P2W.
LMAO na...... I'm way too honest
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Those who don't pay for the expansion, do not take part in the content they provide, thus it cannot be P2W against those who don't pay for it and those who do, all have the equal opportunity for the content and spoils.
Silly flame-starter thread, but i'll let it slide.
On a PVE server I would agree, PVP different story.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Very much so. An expansion is p2w if a MMO has pvp.
Nope, not really. Those who do not purchase the continuation to the game as it is meant as expansions are, are not eligible to that content, thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing. It is not P2W.
All expansion i know of, expand the set universe, level caps, skills, items, etc. Not just one characters power(s).
Calling expansions P2W is like calling Star Wars: A New Hope; a "scam" because the story unfolds in 3 separate episodes (6 if you want to hump the dots). They're a CONTINUATION to the original, not an item or a power you purchase.
If Star Wars would've added a phone number with the end credits saying: "Call 1800-KNOWTHETRUTH for the whole story for 19.95$" .. that would be P2W.
http://themess.com/gamestuff/2011/10/what-if-the-idea-of-paid-expansion-packs-only-showed-up-after-2009/
This thread is a stellar example of cognitive bias.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
One more reason to the list: Why F2P(P2W) is the devils work. Also the current MMO-generation..
You used to get barely 5-20hrs of gameplay for 30-50$ (another world, prince of persia etc).. nowadays people are getting hundreds upon hundreds of hours of gameplay for that same price and still they bitch and moan "I WANT MOAR, I'M ENTITLED!"
Those who do not purchase p2w items are not eligible to that item thus they themselves revoke their right to be on an equal footing.
Except you change the p2w item name to an 'expansion', there is no difference. It is the same logic.
Expansions are generally sequel content. So if you want to participate in the next part of the story, you need to buy access to the content. The choice is there, so no.
Are you providing an example of what he said or did you just not read the link ?
You really don't see any difference between buying a powerful item in the cash shop and earning that same item as part of expanded game play? You can't understand what makes one much worse than the other?
*sigh* I bet soon there will be games that just have a magic "I win" button that immediately makes you max level with all the best gear and "gameplay" will be walking around town showing off. We're already have way there thanks to Blizzard/Turbine/SOE.
I like to do comparisons to other multiplayer games out there such as sports. We could say that an expansion is like a sport adding an expansion team and possible new rules. A micro transaction is like being able to pay for an advantage during the course of the game through items because one team has more money then another team. Isn't that why they put the salary cap in place in most sports?
Of course new skills and gear will give those who buy the expansion a big advantage in PVP over those who don't. You are arguing for the game to remain static because there's no way new content with appropriate rewards and progression won't give those who play it a big advantage. But again I ask is that a bad thing? If you're really enjoying the game why not pay like $30 or so for an expansion which presumably has some fun expanded content, not just bigger items and levels?
Your problem is that you seem to assume that they promised to provide you all content forever with the monthly sub fee when expansions are usually part of the cost of MMOs (with a few exceptions like EVE).
nah .. given how great the D3 difficulty slider is, i don't think i need to worry about a "I win" button anytime soon from Blizz.
"If a man can not say what he means, a man can not mean what he say's" T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia)
Some seem to not understand my argument. I apologize as my wording is probably what's confusing.
I am not debating on whether or not Xpacks and MMORPG companies should supply content and raids new classes etc. etc. free of charge.
What I am debating about is whether player's should always be on an equal footing regarding "levels and skill sets" only. I don't care if player's have to grind the same mob for a month to achieve max level without the purchase of an Xpack.
I believe fair gameplay requires an even footing regarding level's and skill set's, Xpack's be damned.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Then you can't use the term P2W as it applies to MMO's. If your asking if someone buying an expansion has an advantage over someone that hasn't upgraded their game, then the answer is an obvious yes, but this is just common sense. Trying to wrap the argument into a controversial term such as P2W is where my bit gets flipped.
No I am saying that is not a game in any other entertainment. Poker maybe is the closest.
You cannot name one other game outside of the industry that has similar rules and is considered a game, by say....anyone.
I don't teach children to slip the referee a 20 before a soccer game so they bypass the offsides rule.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You are capped at the same price as everyone else. I don't care for the way expansions are done, so I don't play those games.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I understand and respect your point.
P2W has very negative connotation's. Some people take the term as a personal slight against them, they shouldn't.
What is the definition of P2W?
IMHO "purchasing an advantage over other player's" would fall under this definition. An Xpack makes an interesting debate. There are fair arguments on either side. IMHO tying character level's and skill sets to an expansion pack is just a marketing scheme to make the "need to purchase"
Thank you for your intelligent response.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee