Originally posted by Iselin It's not theoretical it's factual.
I am factual, the other guy is making assumptions about something that we have no data on yet.
However, any significant supply of crafting materials that comes from effortless, offline activity would make the crafting process fairly meaningless. That is indeed my assumption and quite reasonable...
This proves absolutely nothing except what you want it to prove. You see a chart that proves developers don't need to take charge in the development of their own game... I see a chart that shows how 5 million people are tired of playing a 10 year old game. This chart shows absolutely no proof whatsoever as to why people are leaving WoW. And all I can tell you is that my conclusion is a lot more reasonable than yours by virtue of the fact that it isn't self-serving. This is what is wrong with people arbitrarily using statistics to justify their argument - they're too easily manipulated.
It's more than you can provide, and on top of it, it can be matched to the stock reports.
So much for your idea. That's solid evidence.
What you see in that chart is Jan, 2011 to Jan, 2012 and the decline of players in game during peak hours. It shows the very next day after Ghostcrawler's "l2p" blog post is exactly when the decline started (I just wished the chart had an hourly time stamp for even more impact).
You may not want to believe the evidence, but 5 million people did leave the game, and it started when Blizzard "put their foot down". Which is the exact response to when SOE did the same in 2005 (thus, losing the subscription lead as people left EQ2); and what happen to John Romero when he exclaimed he was going to make you his female dog.
Game design is a mutual partnership, not a dictatorship...and history proves it.
Here's the deal. The game is going to launch without add-on cheating and other superfluous bullcrap that was rightfully nerfed in this latest beta patch. The devs made this decision, and it's the right decision. Why? Because it's better to launch a game that does not cater to a single group. When the game goes live, and the players have actually paid for their right to warrant change, and the devs can get a more definite feel of who their playerbase actually is - THEN they can start making adjustments according to what the players want.
Until then... they need to shut this crap down with an iron fist and make the game as good as they know how to make it without other people getting in their face about what is right and what is wrong. They need to focus on making as neutral a game as conceivably possible as far as specific tastes, stick with the original philosophy which hallmarks what kind of game they want to design, and make it the best they can.
After Live.... after the laying foundation is set... after the basic player base has been established... THEN and ONLY THEN can they start to allow everyone to put their fingers in the cookie jar. And even after that - they have to take all of it with a grain of salt. Why?
Players are part of that philosophy too when the game goes live. They have ZERO rights to demand change that goes against that core philosophy at any time. And when they make these ridiculous demands... the Devs should call your bluff. If you quit - fine. Quit. If you don't quit - great - you can continue to play and be part of the team that was already established under said design philosophy.
This is exactly how EVE Online has stayed affloat this entire time. They stick to the design philosophy no matter what anyone says - period - end of story. The players definitely have input for change. But they never betray the design.
The only complaints I've heard from day one with this game goes directly against the baseline design philosophy. This doesn't make the design philosophy flawed or bad. It simply makes YOU - the person wanting change - not a team player. YOU think you know best, that you can completely undermine the group philosophy and demand change that does not fall under its edict. YOU are a big part of the problem with MMO's today.
I am factual, the other guy is making assumptions about something that we have no data on yet.
However, any significant supply of crafting materials that comes from effortless, offline activity would make the crafting process fairly meaningless. That is indeed my assumption and quite reasonable...
As "effortless" as researching traits offline. I suppose it would take more effort to have to stand there for the duration.
The only reasonable assumption is that since they have consistently said they want crafters to craft the best gear, they'll make whatever tweaks are required to do that. If it means lowering the rate at which you get tempers by deconstructing and increasing it from putting 3 skill points into the hireling passive, they'll do just that.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem we're talking about here is that, atm, enchantment from looted gear is better than the enchantment you can craft. So, when you reach the max level, the best way to get your "final" stuff is to loot the "base" stuff from mobs with a good enchantment and a good trait, and then upgrade it with crafting (And upgrading doesn't require crafting skills)
Once again as I have asked anyone making the argument you are, be specific. Generalizations that dropped items have better enchantments is subjective unless you can show comparative items of the same enchantment where the values are significantly different. eg. Dropped item has magicka regen enchantment of 15% while crafted only nets you 7%.
The sparse information given from those raising alarm is that the enchants are different... what is the difference? There are unique enchantments on dropped items, but no one has specifically stated what these unique enchantments are and how they are clearly a better choice across all builds.
While crafting is not necessary to upgrade, having a crafting skill opens traits which make it less resource intensive and the crafter gains those resources more quickly. Upgrading a full set of armor and weapons is not as easy as you make it out to be. Especially when you have to do it for any new dropped piece which are an upgrade. Crafted items will certainly be quicker to obtain than relying on highly sought after random drops.
For 90% of the player base this likely will not be an issue. For the minority min/max players there is still no evidence yet provided it will be an issue across all builds. For the players with specialized builds critically dependent on specific dropped enchantments... well that is their choice, but does not represent the majority of players in general.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
This is the exact reason I am glad I didn't buy ESO, I give the artists a thumbs up for the graphics design, and music in the game its great, but the actual game play developers sucked at design of the game, I find myself complaining at a lot of game developers these days for their Lack of Innovation, including in Guild Wars 2 destruction of Lions Arch, I logged in sent a bug report told them how much I hated the destruction of Lions Arch, Please make it instanced next time until this is fixed im no longer playing.
With MMO's I believe the best Gear should come from Both Crafting, and Looting, Take for example with ESO instead of best gear coming from just looting gear what about if there was a balance between looting gear with better stats, and crafting gear with better stats, but why not add an Ancient Artifact system to the game where players can loot ancient artifacts and craft them into things with better stats similar to enchanting but you can take a boring Robe with bad stats use it to enhance stats of any item and so on.
I am glad I didn't buy ESO because of the lack of innovation and developers that did not listen to any feed-back I gave them all around, when the game becomes Buy 2 Play, or Free 2 Play I might play it until then I am done with the game already since 48 hours of Beta Testing I got bored of the game fast.
What we need in the MMO Genere, Is Talented Developers, who actually completed School, Spent Hundreds of hours in other MMO's to understand what they have done wrong, what they could have done, and create us a new MMORPG, that isn't a failure.
The problem we're talking about here is that, atm, enchantment from looted gear is better than the enchantment you can craft. So, when you reach the max level, the best way to get your "final" stuff is to loot the "base" stuff from mobs with a good enchantment and a good trait, and then upgrade it with crafting (And upgrading doesn't require crafting skills)
Once again as I have asked anyone making the argument you are, be specific. Generalizations that dropped items have better enchantments is subjective unless you can show comparative items of the same enchantment where the values are significantly different. eg. Dropped item has magicka regen enchantment of 15% while crafted only nets you 7%.
The sparse information given from those raising alarm is that the enchants are different... what is the difference? There are unique enchantments on dropped items, but no one has specifically stated what these unique enchantments are and how they are clearly a better choice across all builds.
While crafting is not necessary to upgrade, having a crafting skill opens traits which make it less resource intensive and the crafter gains those resources more quickly. Upgrading a full set of armor and weapons is not as easy as you make it out to be. Especially when you have to do it for any new dropped piece which are an upgrade. Crafted items will certainly be quicker to obtain than relying on highly sought after random drops.
For 90% of the player base this likely will not be an issue. For the minority min/max players there is still no evidence yet provided it will be an issue across all builds. For the players with specialized builds critically dependent on specific dropped enchantments... well that is their choice, but does not represent the majority of players in general.
The crafting professions can also skill-up their expertise at upgrading. The top tier, 3, doubles the upgrade chance. Needing 5 tempers instead of 10 will be a huge advantage for what is bound to be expensive items.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I challenge anyone to search the entire planet for a Legendary Enchant created by a level 50 Enchanter, and show us what it looks like and how it is worse then any dropped end game enchanted item. Until then, you cannot claim that anything droped is better then crafted. /end thread. maybe?
Originally posted by IselinAs "effortless" as researching traits offline. I suppose it would take more effort to have to stand there for the duration. The only reasonable assumption is that since they have consistently said they want crafters to craft the best gear, they'll make whatever tweaks are required to do that. If it means lowering the rate at which you get tempers by deconstructing and increasing it from putting 3 skill points into the hireling passive, they'll do just that.
1) Traits and resource supply are heaven and earth difference. 2) Whether crafted gear is the best obtainable is irelevant. It is still an economy driven by RNG, loot and no item loss where crafters do not play any significant role.
Here's the deal. The game is going to launch without add-on cheating and other superfluous bullcrap that was rightfully nerfed in this latest beta patch. The devs made this decision, and it's the right decision. Why? Because it's better to launch a game that does not cater to a single group. When the game goes live, and the players have actually paid for their right to warrant change, and the devs can get a more definite feel of who their playerbase actually is - THEN they can start making adjustments according to what the players want.
Until then... they need to shut this crap down with an iron fist and make the game as good as they know how to make it without other people getting in their face about what is right and what is wrong. They need to focus on making as neutral a game as conceivably possible as far as specific tastes, stick with the original philosophy which hallmarks what kind of game they want to design, and make it the best they can.
After Live.... after the laying foundation is set... after the basic player base has been established... THEN and ONLY THEN can they start to allow everyone to put their fingers in the cookie jar. And even after that - they have to take all of it with a grain of salt. Why?
Players are part of that philosophy too when the game goes live. They have ZERO rights to demand change that goes against that core philosophy at any time. And when they make these ridiculous demands... the Devs should call your bluff. If you quit - fine. Quit. If you don't quit - great - you can continue to play and be part of the team that was already established under said design philosophy.
This is exactly how EVE Online has stayed affloat this entire time. They stick to the design philosophy no matter what anyone says - period - end of story. The players definitely have input for change. But they never betray the design.
The only complaints I've heard from day one with this game goes directly against the baseline design philosophy. This doesn't make the design philosophy flawed or bad. It simply makes YOU - the person wanting change - not a team player. YOU think you know best, that you can completely undermine the group philosophy and demand change that does not fall under its edict. YOU are a big part of the problem with MMO's today.
"Because it's better to launch a game that does not cater to a single group."
I'm not so sure that history has proven this to be a true statement. It seems to me that the more developers try to appeal to more and more groups, fewer and fewer are actually satisfied with the results.
And while I don't think Kevyne's chart is empirical evidence of his claim, I do think it has some merit to it. I don't think it should be completely dismissed.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer"Because it's better to launch a game that does not cater to a single group."I'm not so sure that history has proven this to be a true statement. It seems to me that the more developers try to appeal to more and more groups, fewer and fewer and actually satisfied with the results.
The quote was related to feedback - making game changes based on specific feedback coming from minor group of your user base.
For actual game vision and development, the contrary applies.
EDIT: Oh yeah, you can completely ignore the chart - the sample isn't representative and you cannot distinguish whether the drop is due lesser use of addon or not playing the game. It's completely worthless data and prime example of lack of critical thinking.
Originally posted by deveilblad End of thread.... Legendary gear is crafted only. You take a crafted or dropped epic level piece of equipment and a crafter has to use tempers to make it legendary. Legendaries do not drop.
Do you not understand the major difference here?
The "unique" enchantments ONLY come on dropped items, crafters not NOT make these items.
The unique dropped items are far better then what a crafted item can have on them currently after these changes.
In order to upgrade an item to legendary you do not even need to be a master crafter at all, a few skill points in will allow you to do this.
So the crafters who invest all their time, money, and work into mastering crafting do not get to craft comparable items right now (like they did before these recent changes), instead these dropped items are bettera nd crafters only purpose end game is to improve dropped items (which you do not need to max crafting to do).
This means the people that max crafting and enjoy crafting items will have no place when it comes to end game if they leave it like it currently is.
YES, ENCHANTERS WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE LEGENDARY ENCHANTMENTS!!!!
Legendary Enchantments can make the best end game crafted gear that blacksmiths and tailors make to BE THE BEST GEAR IN GAME, equal to gear that has been droped and upgraded to legendary by blacksmiths or tailors.
They can also upgrade the raid gear, that has LegendaryEquivelliant Enchantments embedded into them.
I the to break your heart, but yes, crafters will be able to make the best gear in game and make them better. JUST LIKE THE DEVS TOLD US!
Raid gear will not be able to have LEGENDARY ENCHANTS put onto them, Only Crafted gear can be LEGENDARY ENCHANTED because RAID gear alredy has "legendary quality" enchantments embedded into them.
Enchantments are simply a stat (magicka/stamina/health) or cost reduction or other similar single effect, which already come on dropped items by default. These auto-upgrade when you upgrade a drop item with tanins/embroideries/etc. So it's completely inaccurate to say that crafted is the only "legendary enchanted" gear, and since dropped gear has far better set bonuses (not subjective, but things everyone agrees on and are even numerically better) you don't want to use crafted items if you can help it. In ESO they are more of a fill-in, and all crafting is used for is consumables (potions/food) and upgrading dropped items (same materials as though you were upgrading a crafted item).
TL;dr, dropped items are superior thanks to set bonuses by far, and numerically they're the same damage or armor rating. You also get many more set bonuses to access through drops than crafting can make, of which only two or three crafted ones are even decent (5% spell crit, being one of them as a three-piece).
RANK 10 LEGENARY RAID GEAR (after its upgraded by a crafter)
REALLY NOW, HOW CAN ONE BE BETTER THEN THE OTHER THAT MUCH..... Why are you guys so insistant to find out which one is better then the other?
Let's see:
"33% chance to recover 10% of your maximum stamina when attacking with a bow" or "Recover 10% of your maximum magicka when struck by a melee attack, 5 second cooldown", for dropped items as some of the sets as examples, whereas the crafted items have things like "Regenerate 20% faster during the daytime" (running into softcaps) or "5% spell critical" for set bonuses. And that trend continues across the board.
Are you even in the PTS and a Veteran Rank player? You'd already know these things if so, and you don't seem to. Item A has (random but close number) 85 magicka, item B has 85 magicka... Item A has 4% sprint cost reduction, Item B has 4% sprint cost reduction.... Item A has a set bonus of "Ignore the movement speed penalty while sneaking", Item B has a set bonus of "10% chance to fill a soulgem when killing an enemy". I think it's pretty obvious which is better, and that is, as I said, an across the board thing: bonus after bonus after bonus is generally poor on the crafted stuff, while dungeon drops and even world drop greens that you then upgrade to legendary, have great ones. (Item A here is dropped, and a real item, Item B is crafted, and a real item set, both require 5 pieces).
Honestly, this sounds like kneejerk reactions to a balance pass to me. These are all numbers on a spreadsheet and so if crafted items went from OP to crap in a patch, they can just as easily go back the other way towards a more balanced middle ground. Test servers are for testing. Doom and gloom isn't necessary.
Balancing crafted vs. dropped items is always going to be tricky and numbers are likely to be in flux on the run-up to launch. And even with crafted items having a major role, dropped gear should still be useful. With the variety of builds available in ESO, it's certainly possible dropped gear may be better for certain builds, while other builds may make better use of the flexibility provided by crafting.
Feedback is important, but 'the sky is falling!' isn't helpful to anyone. With the way he describes the pre-nerf version of traits they seem overpowered (almost free sprinting? +50-60% attack speed bypassing the need for resource use?) and it's entirely possible they just got overtuned in the latest patch in an attempt to reel things back in.
In any case, I doubt you're getting the whole story here, and this isn't likely to be the final set of numbers by launch.
The balance problem has nothing to do between crafted traits and drop traits: they are identical. It's the set bonuses that differ significantly, and while before crafting's huge benefit was being able to choose the trait (since dropped items come with the same trait, always, for a given set), with the traits nerfed so severely they are almost irrelevant to what you would want to choose to wear. That leaves damage or armor (identical), magicka/stamina/health (identical), and set bonuses: which are very different and far more powerful on drops.
Also just to clear things up: the post preceding that I wrote about the devs' activity levels on the forums etc. is correct. I admittedly was pretty pissed off at what had happened in the forums the night I wrote that, but factually it's correct even if the tone is ranting. Ask someone else and you might get the same answer about how the devs act, or you might get an answer saying they're great. The info I'm giving about crafting etc. is 100% accurate and isn't subjective, however. It's literally how the system works.
The XP issues are a hot topic on the forums too, but we haven't heard anything about them (they didn't put the nerfs into the patch notes, which are often missing things that were changed) from the devs except for a post by Brian Wheeler prior to a small XP bump for PVP which left the numbers around the same as a single PVE mob kill gives, divided amongst the players in your group (or full if solo). Do I think it's complete crap right now? Yes, and numerically you can pretty much see that it is. Do I think they'll change it back towards more reasonable levels? Probably. And finally, have I still stood by my decision to play or not play...? No, I'll be honest here after taking a step back I don't care as much whether the devs are or aren't directionless/etc., it's the only game with proper RVR fighting so I'll play it for awhile. I really did cancel my physical imperial edition though and wish I hadn't. Such is life.
RANK 10 LEGENARY RAID GEAR (after its upgraded by a crafter)
REALLY NOW, HOW CAN ONE BE BETTER THEN THE OTHER THAT MUCH..... Why are you guys so insistant to find out which one is better then the other?
Let's see:
"33% chance to recover 10% of your maximum stamina when attacking with a bow" or "Recover 10% of your maximum magicka when struck by a melee attack, 5 second cooldown", for dropped items as some of the sets as examples, whereas the crafted items have things like "Regenerate 20% faster during the daytime" (running into softcaps) or "5% spell critical" for set bonuses. And that trend continues across the board.
Are you even in the PTS and a Veteran Rank player? You'd already know these things if so, and you don't seem to. Item A has (random but close number) 85 magicka, item B has 85 magicka... Item A has 4% sprint cost reduction, Item B has 4% sprint cost reduction.... Item A has a set bonus of "Ignore the movement speed penalty while sneaking", Item B has a set bonus of "10% chance to fill a soulgem when killing an enemy". I think it's pretty obvious which is better, and that is, as I said, an across the board thing: bonus after bonus after bonus is generally poor on the crafted stuff, while dungeon drops and even world drop greens that you then upgrade to legendary, have great ones. (Item A here is dropped, and a real item, Item B is crafted, and a real item set, both require 5 pieces).
I would take a 5% crit over a 10% magicka every 5 sec.
When you upgrade an item that have a crafted enchantement, does the enchantement become of higher quality or it just scales up ? ex. I craft a level 50 white sword and apply a level 50 white enchant. Then I upgrade that item all the way to legendary, will it have the same stats as if I upgrade a weapon first and apply a legendary enchant to it ?
I would take a 5% crit over a 10% magicka every 5 sec.
When you upgrade an item that have a crafted enchantement, does the enchantement become of higher quality or it just scales up ? ex. I craft a level 50 white sword and apply a level 50 white enchant. Then I upgrade that item all the way to legendary, will it have the same stats as if I upgrade a weapon first and apply a legendary enchant to it ?
Just to note, the 5% crit is one of the literal couple of examples of good crafted set bonus.
When you upgrade a crafted item with an enchantment applied already, the enchantment remains unchanged (just scales up a bit with color quality). When you upgrade a drop with an enchantment applied already, it increases further as it is considered to have been upgraded in color quality as well. However worth noting is you can overwrite crafted items' enchants with a different one, including quality, later. I.E. if you have a green sword you crafted with a blue enchant, and then upgrade the sword to legendary (orange), the enchant stays blue, but you can overwrite (and destroy) the existing enchantment with a higher quality one at will.
So your main complaint about crafting right now is the set bonus's suck on them...and from what i can gather, set bonus's for crafting was nerfed this past patch?
Wouldn't the best course of action be to complain that the set bonus's suck, and then wait for them to improve them?
So your main complaint about crafting right now is the set bonus's suck on them...and from what i can gather, set bonus's for crafting was nerfed this past patch?
Wouldn't the best course of action be to complain that the set bonus's suck, and then wait for them to improve them?
The set bonuses have not changed as long as I've been in beta (since July of last year, and PTS as soon as it opened at the beginning of October), except for a couple of dropped ones getting nerfed such as being immune to critical hits that were pretty much clearly overpowered. The thing that got nerfed was the traits, from being extremely strong to being extremely weak. I hope they improve them again as that would put crafting back towards par. And before you ask, yes, I have left this feedback on the psijic boards in much politer form.
Veteran Rank XP has also been nerfed so that you must do every single quest in the zones in order to even come close (and that isn't enough, believe it or not, to level you fully!) to getting to VR10. Same as normal XP in terms of now having no options. I guess they think people will grind out the rest? You currently will get to around VR6 and if lucky, 7, with the current build, and VR's 8, 9, and 10 take upwards of 9 million XP total to reach (for all 3 combined), while killing a monster gives around 100-200xp as does a player.
Now that sounds like good news to me. Not outleveling the content like in WoW or SWTOR, but being able to do everything and then some.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I think it would make sense that crafted gear would be the best since someone must have crafted the loot drops in the world... Then to improve items by contracting a master Blacksmith/Enchanter makes more sense than just finding really powerful items that proposed no real challenge to get.
But I also think that some NPCs out there in the world would have had a Legendary weapon made at some point. So only being able to craft them doesn't make sense entirely to logic.
Since legendary can't be found, perhaps it's a new emerging technology?
Perhaps the hirelings are more than they seem? I also wonder if they will have a cost to using them?
In fact, since loot is a system mechanic instead of being realistic in scarcity, I would propose that at some point crafted loot would be the only way to get items post end game. Of course this would be pretty hard and even more of a time sync.
I would take a 5% crit over a 10% magicka every 5 sec.
When you upgrade an item that have a crafted enchantement, does the enchantement become of higher quality or it just scales up ? ex. I craft a level 50 white sword and apply a level 50 white enchant. Then I upgrade that item all the way to legendary, will it have the same stats as if I upgrade a weapon first and apply a legendary enchant to it ?
Just to note, the 5% crit is one of the literal couple of examples of good crafted set bonus.
When you upgrade a crafted item with an enchantment applied already, the enchantment remains unchanged (just scales up a bit with color quality). When you upgrade a drop with an enchantment applied already, it increases further as it is considered to have been upgraded in color quality as well. However worth noting is you can overwrite crafted items' enchants with a different one, including quality, later. I.E. if you have a green sword you crafted with a blue enchant, and then upgrade the sword to legendary (orange), the enchant stays blue, but you can overwrite (and destroy) the existing enchantment with a higher quality one at will.
And the legendary enchantments ? Couldn't they boost a crafted item over the best dropped gear ? What do we know about those ?
First, ty Goldentiger for the clarification posts in this thread. I guess a follow up question for you would be how game breaking is this for the average player?
What is the time investment and skill level needed to obtain these superior set pieces? How big is the disparity in power for comparable sets between crafted and dropped.
For example you listed magicka gain on hit set bonus... is there a crafted set bonus with magicka regen... if so what is it?
While I can understand crafters being slightly upset at the changes... I am failing to see how they have a significant impact on the average player. Crafted gear will be sought after as at the very least a quicker upgrade to RNG items that someone is no certain to get and may be very costly to obtain through trade depending on demand.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
What exactly was changed on the crafting that made it suck all of a sudden?
I'll try to explain it a little more clearly since the previous explanation was a bit convoluted:
Crafted items are identical to dropped items, EXCEPT for two things: crafted items can be given any trait you have learned, and the set bonuses differ in effect. The logic behind the crafted items still being good, despite being worse on the set bonuses was that you could choose what traits to place, while a dropped item only comes with one trait for a given item set. So say this amazing drop set has a bonus that's incredible, but the trait may stink, while a crafted set could be slotted by you with a trait you wanted instead but with a worse set bonus. However now with traits nerfed so far down, their choice is nearly irrelevant except for one (Impenetrable, which reduces your incoming critical chance to be hit).
Thank you Goldentiger I made the mistake of reading most of the thread and colour me confused but your explanation seems to me at least to indicate that because traits have been nerfed dropped gear will have better set bonusses and perhaps even better traits since they nerfed the ones you could apply.
What exactly was changed on the crafting that made it suck all of a sudden?
I'll try to explain it a little more clearly since the previous explanation was a bit convoluted:
Crafted items are identical to dropped items, EXCEPT for two things: crafted items can be given any trait you have learned, and the set bonuses differ in effect. The logic behind the crafted items still being good, despite being worse on the set bonuses was that you could choose what traits to place, while a dropped item only comes with one trait for a given item set. So say this amazing drop set has a bonus that's incredible, but the trait may stink, while a crafted set could be slotted by you with a trait you wanted instead but with a worse set bonus. However now with traits nerfed so far down, their choice is nearly irrelevant except for one (Impenetrable, which reduces your incoming critical chance to be hit).
Wow that's really bad, I was actually hoping for something really unique in crafting here
What's the point of having anything if players focus on the min/max and ignore other features, they might as well just take crafting out now.
I understand that balance is good, but the change would have been welcome and more realistic.
Comments
I am factual, the other guy is making assumptions about something that we have no data on yet.
However, any significant supply of crafting materials that comes from effortless, offline activity would make the crafting process fairly meaningless. That is indeed my assumption and quite reasonable...
Here's the deal. The game is going to launch without add-on cheating and other superfluous bullcrap that was rightfully nerfed in this latest beta patch. The devs made this decision, and it's the right decision. Why? Because it's better to launch a game that does not cater to a single group. When the game goes live, and the players have actually paid for their right to warrant change, and the devs can get a more definite feel of who their playerbase actually is - THEN they can start making adjustments according to what the players want.
Until then... they need to shut this crap down with an iron fist and make the game as good as they know how to make it without other people getting in their face about what is right and what is wrong. They need to focus on making as neutral a game as conceivably possible as far as specific tastes, stick with the original philosophy which hallmarks what kind of game they want to design, and make it the best they can.
After Live.... after the laying foundation is set... after the basic player base has been established... THEN and ONLY THEN can they start to allow everyone to put their fingers in the cookie jar. And even after that - they have to take all of it with a grain of salt. Why?
Players are part of that philosophy too when the game goes live. They have ZERO rights to demand change that goes against that core philosophy at any time. And when they make these ridiculous demands... the Devs should call your bluff. If you quit - fine. Quit. If you don't quit - great - you can continue to play and be part of the team that was already established under said design philosophy.
This is exactly how EVE Online has stayed affloat this entire time. They stick to the design philosophy no matter what anyone says - period - end of story. The players definitely have input for change. But they never betray the design.
The only complaints I've heard from day one with this game goes directly against the baseline design philosophy. This doesn't make the design philosophy flawed or bad. It simply makes YOU - the person wanting change - not a team player. YOU think you know best, that you can completely undermine the group philosophy and demand change that does not fall under its edict. YOU are a big part of the problem with MMO's today.
As "effortless" as researching traits offline. I suppose it would take more effort to have to stand there for the duration.
The only reasonable assumption is that since they have consistently said they want crafters to craft the best gear, they'll make whatever tweaks are required to do that. If it means lowering the rate at which you get tempers by deconstructing and increasing it from putting 3 skill points into the hireling passive, they'll do just that.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Once again as I have asked anyone making the argument you are, be specific. Generalizations that dropped items have better enchantments is subjective unless you can show comparative items of the same enchantment where the values are significantly different. eg. Dropped item has magicka regen enchantment of 15% while crafted only nets you 7%.
The sparse information given from those raising alarm is that the enchants are different... what is the difference? There are unique enchantments on dropped items, but no one has specifically stated what these unique enchantments are and how they are clearly a better choice across all builds.
While crafting is not necessary to upgrade, having a crafting skill opens traits which make it less resource intensive and the crafter gains those resources more quickly. Upgrading a full set of armor and weapons is not as easy as you make it out to be. Especially when you have to do it for any new dropped piece which are an upgrade. Crafted items will certainly be quicker to obtain than relying on highly sought after random drops.
For 90% of the player base this likely will not be an issue. For the minority min/max players there is still no evidence yet provided it will be an issue across all builds. For the players with specialized builds critically dependent on specific dropped enchantments... well that is their choice, but does not represent the majority of players in general.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
This is the exact reason I am glad I didn't buy ESO, I give the artists a thumbs up for the graphics design, and music in the game its great, but the actual game play developers sucked at design of the game, I find myself complaining at a lot of game developers these days for their Lack of Innovation, including in Guild Wars 2 destruction of Lions Arch, I logged in sent a bug report told them how much I hated the destruction of Lions Arch, Please make it instanced next time until this is fixed im no longer playing.
With MMO's I believe the best Gear should come from Both Crafting, and Looting, Take for example with ESO instead of best gear coming from just looting gear what about if there was a balance between looting gear with better stats, and crafting gear with better stats, but why not add an Ancient Artifact system to the game where players can loot ancient artifacts and craft them into things with better stats similar to enchanting but you can take a boring Robe with bad stats use it to enhance stats of any item and so on.
I am glad I didn't buy ESO because of the lack of innovation and developers that did not listen to any feed-back I gave them all around, when the game becomes Buy 2 Play, or Free 2 Play I might play it until then I am done with the game already since 48 hours of Beta Testing I got bored of the game fast.
What we need in the MMO Genere, Is Talented Developers, who actually completed School, Spent Hundreds of hours in other MMO's to understand what they have done wrong, what they could have done, and create us a new MMORPG, that isn't a failure.
The crafting professions can also skill-up their expertise at upgrading. The top tier, 3, doubles the upgrade chance. Needing 5 tempers instead of 10 will be a huge advantage for what is bound to be expensive items.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I challenge anyone to search the entire planet for a Legendary Enchant created by a level 50 Enchanter, and show us what it looks like and how it is worse then any dropped end game enchanted item. Until then, you cannot claim that anything droped is better then crafted. /end thread. maybe?
1) Traits and resource supply are heaven and earth difference.
2) Whether crafted gear is the best obtainable is irelevant. It is still an economy driven by RNG, loot and no item loss where crafters do not play any significant role.
"Because it's better to launch a game that does not cater to a single group."
I'm not so sure that history has proven this to be a true statement. It seems to me that the more developers try to appeal to more and more groups, fewer and fewer are actually satisfied with the results.
And while I don't think Kevyne's chart is empirical evidence of his claim, I do think it has some merit to it. I don't think it should be completely dismissed.
The quote was related to feedback - making game changes based on specific feedback coming from minor group of your user base.
For actual game vision and development, the contrary applies.
EDIT: Oh yeah, you can completely ignore the chart - the sample isn't representative and you cannot distinguish whether the drop is due lesser use of addon or not playing the game. It's completely worthless data and prime example of lack of critical thinking.
Enchantments are simply a stat (magicka/stamina/health) or cost reduction or other similar single effect, which already come on dropped items by default. These auto-upgrade when you upgrade a drop item with tanins/embroideries/etc. So it's completely inaccurate to say that crafted is the only "legendary enchanted" gear, and since dropped gear has far better set bonuses (not subjective, but things everyone agrees on and are even numerically better) you don't want to use crafted items if you can help it. In ESO they are more of a fill-in, and all crafting is used for is consumables (potions/food) and upgrading dropped items (same materials as though you were upgrading a crafted item).
TL;dr, dropped items are superior thanks to set bonuses by far, and numerically they're the same damage or armor rating. You also get many more set bonuses to access through drops than crafting can make, of which only two or three crafted ones are even decent (5% spell crit, being one of them as a three-piece).
Let's see:
"33% chance to recover 10% of your maximum stamina when attacking with a bow" or "Recover 10% of your maximum magicka when struck by a melee attack, 5 second cooldown", for dropped items as some of the sets as examples, whereas the crafted items have things like "Regenerate 20% faster during the daytime" (running into softcaps) or "5% spell critical" for set bonuses. And that trend continues across the board.
Are you even in the PTS and a Veteran Rank player? You'd already know these things if so, and you don't seem to. Item A has (random but close number) 85 magicka, item B has 85 magicka... Item A has 4% sprint cost reduction, Item B has 4% sprint cost reduction.... Item A has a set bonus of "Ignore the movement speed penalty while sneaking", Item B has a set bonus of "10% chance to fill a soulgem when killing an enemy". I think it's pretty obvious which is better, and that is, as I said, an across the board thing: bonus after bonus after bonus is generally poor on the crafted stuff, while dungeon drops and even world drop greens that you then upgrade to legendary, have great ones. (Item A here is dropped, and a real item, Item B is crafted, and a real item set, both require 5 pieces).
The balance problem has nothing to do between crafted traits and drop traits: they are identical. It's the set bonuses that differ significantly, and while before crafting's huge benefit was being able to choose the trait (since dropped items come with the same trait, always, for a given set), with the traits nerfed so severely they are almost irrelevant to what you would want to choose to wear. That leaves damage or armor (identical), magicka/stamina/health (identical), and set bonuses: which are very different and far more powerful on drops.
Also just to clear things up: the post preceding that I wrote about the devs' activity levels on the forums etc. is correct. I admittedly was pretty pissed off at what had happened in the forums the night I wrote that, but factually it's correct even if the tone is ranting. Ask someone else and you might get the same answer about how the devs act, or you might get an answer saying they're great. The info I'm giving about crafting etc. is 100% accurate and isn't subjective, however. It's literally how the system works.
The XP issues are a hot topic on the forums too, but we haven't heard anything about them (they didn't put the nerfs into the patch notes, which are often missing things that were changed) from the devs except for a post by Brian Wheeler prior to a small XP bump for PVP which left the numbers around the same as a single PVE mob kill gives, divided amongst the players in your group (or full if solo). Do I think it's complete crap right now? Yes, and numerically you can pretty much see that it is. Do I think they'll change it back towards more reasonable levels? Probably. And finally, have I still stood by my decision to play or not play...? No, I'll be honest here after taking a step back I don't care as much whether the devs are or aren't directionless/etc., it's the only game with proper RVR fighting so I'll play it for awhile. I really did cancel my physical imperial edition though
and wish I hadn't. Such is life.
I would take a 5% crit over a 10% magicka every 5 sec.
When you upgrade an item that have a crafted enchantement, does the enchantement become of higher quality or it just scales up ? ex. I craft a level 50 white sword and apply a level 50 white enchant. Then I upgrade that item all the way to legendary, will it have the same stats as if I upgrade a weapon first and apply a legendary enchant to it ?
Just to note, the 5% crit is one of the literal couple of examples of good crafted set bonus.
When you upgrade a crafted item with an enchantment applied already, the enchantment remains unchanged (just scales up a bit with color quality). When you upgrade a drop with an enchantment applied already, it increases further as it is considered to have been upgraded in color quality as well. However worth noting is you can overwrite crafted items' enchants with a different one, including quality, later. I.E. if you have a green sword you crafted with a blue enchant, and then upgrade the sword to legendary (orange), the enchant stays blue, but you can overwrite (and destroy) the existing enchantment with a higher quality one at will.
So your main complaint about crafting right now is the set bonus's suck on them...and from what i can gather, set bonus's for crafting was nerfed this past patch?
Wouldn't the best course of action be to complain that the set bonus's suck, and then wait for them to improve them?
The set bonuses have not changed as long as I've been in beta (since July of last year, and PTS as soon as it opened at the beginning of October), except for a couple of dropped ones getting nerfed such as being immune to critical hits that were pretty much clearly overpowered. The thing that got nerfed was the traits, from being extremely strong to being extremely weak. I hope they improve them again as that would put crafting back towards par. And before you ask, yes, I have left this feedback on the psijic boards
in much politer form.
Now that sounds like good news to me. Not outleveling the content like in WoW or SWTOR, but being able to do everything and then some.
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What exactly was changed on the crafting that made it suck all of a sudden?
*edit*
Basically from what I can tell, Traits on Dropped items are better then Traits on Crafted items.
But before they nerfed them, Crafted items clearly had the better traits, and Dropped Items were pointless
I think it would make sense that crafted gear would be the best since someone must have crafted the loot drops in the world... Then to improve items by contracting a master Blacksmith/Enchanter makes more sense than just finding really powerful items that proposed no real challenge to get.
But I also think that some NPCs out there in the world would have had a Legendary weapon made at some point. So only being able to craft them doesn't make sense entirely to logic.
Since legendary can't be found, perhaps it's a new emerging technology?
Perhaps the hirelings are more than they seem? I also wonder if they will have a cost to using them?
In fact, since loot is a system mechanic instead of being realistic in scarcity, I would propose that at some point crafted loot would be the only way to get items post end game. Of course this would be pretty hard and even more of a time sync.
Just a thought.
And the legendary enchantments ? Couldn't they boost a crafted item over the best dropped gear ? What do we know about those ?
First, ty Goldentiger for the clarification posts in this thread. I guess a follow up question for you would be how game breaking is this for the average player?
What is the time investment and skill level needed to obtain these superior set pieces? How big is the disparity in power for comparable sets between crafted and dropped.
For example you listed magicka gain on hit set bonus... is there a crafted set bonus with magicka regen... if so what is it?
While I can understand crafters being slightly upset at the changes... I am failing to see how they have a significant impact on the average player. Crafted gear will be sought after as at the very least a quicker upgrade to RNG items that someone is no certain to get and may be very costly to obtain through trade depending on demand.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I'll try to explain it a little more clearly since the previous explanation was a bit convoluted:
Crafted items are identical to dropped items, EXCEPT for two things: crafted items can be given any trait you have learned, and the set bonuses differ in effect. The logic behind the crafted items still being good, despite being worse on the set bonuses was that you could choose what traits to place, while a dropped item only comes with one trait for a given item set. So say this amazing drop set has a bonus that's incredible, but the trait may stink, while a crafted set could be slotted by you with a trait you wanted instead but with a worse set bonus. However now with traits nerfed so far down, their choice is nearly irrelevant except for one (Impenetrable, which reduces your incoming critical chance to be hit).
Thank you Goldentiger I made the mistake of reading most of the thread and colour me confused but your explanation seems to me at least to indicate that because traits have been nerfed dropped gear will have better set bonusses and perhaps even better traits since they nerfed the ones you could apply.
Wow that's really bad, I was actually hoping for something really unique in crafting here
What's the point of having anything if players focus on the min/max and ignore other features, they might as well just take crafting out now.
I understand that balance is good, but the change would have been welcome and more realistic.