Originally posted by AlBQuirky Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.
Sad is only a matter of perspective.Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.
You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.
it's because he is right.
I have to agree as well. Rts combat is best in rts games.2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?
All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points: 1) The masses agree 2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games
This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.
Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.
RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?
Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
We are a significant part of the gaming audience. Do not think for one second you're going to get twitch combat in every MMORPG from now on without us putting up a fight. You might be surprised how powerful our wallets can speak for us. Other than GW2, how many of your fabulous twitchy style MMORPGs are considered truly successful? Whether it is due fully or in part to the combat, it is and always will remain a factor when you are dealing with gamers and their preferences.
Diablo 3 .. sold 15M boxes. PoE is successful.
There are lots of RPGs with twitch combat that is successful .. how about Borderlands 2 .. that is even a FPS.
The only reason MMORPGs are less so is that their combat is *not* actiony enough. GW2 has a bit closer to action combat, but still quite far compared to true action RPGs.
Then why have any genre of games at all, lets make all of them MOBAs and be done with it. Even better, facebook games are even more popular than anything else out there, lets emulate them and screw everything and everyone else.
While there may not be objectively superior combat, if 90% of the players considering playing game A or game B like game A's combat better, then game B has a problem.
If it was really 90% of people that preferred twitch combat I don't think turn based games would be enjoying a renaissance led by crowdfunding. Bottom line is both types of combat can require great amounts of skill (different type of skills) and I think there will always be a market for both sorts of games.
Maybe MMOs should ditch the hotbars and figure out a way to make actual turn based combat work well in the MMO format though. I know a few have attempted it.
Can anybody explain to me what kind of skill and freedom of gameplay tab targeting brings to the table compared to twitch aiming? As far as I can tell the strategic element present in tab targeting is present in twitch games as well.
All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points: 1) The masses agree 2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games
This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.
I don't know, Nariusseldon is very fond of claiming that "the masses" agree with him (reminds me of a common tactic in political debate). There really is no proof of this. Sure FPS games are popular but it doesn't mean that there isn't a large group of people that isn't looking for something different and not being served right now.
Reminds me the time about 10 years ago that I heard some "expert" talking head on TV saying that "No one wants to take pictures with their cell phone. This is the stupidest idea ever and is going to totally bomb."
Originally posted by Holophonist Can anybody explain to me what kind of skill and freedom of gameplay tab targeting brings to the table compared to twitch aiming? As far as I can tell the strategic element present in tab targeting is present in twitch games as well.
For one thing tab-targeting and turn based allows a lot more skills to be available which the player must keep track of and learn and use together.
Twitch combat usually has a much shorter list of skills available and is more a test of reflexes rather than knowledge (what you need to do is very obvious it's just a question of whether you are fast enough).
Originally posted by Holophonist Can anybody explain to me what kind of skill and freedom of gameplay tab targeting brings to the table compared to twitch aiming? As far as I can tell the strategic element present in tab targeting is present in twitch games as well.
For one thing tab-targeting and turn based allows a lot more skills to be available which the player must keep track of and learn and use together.
Twitch combat usually has a much shorter list of skills available and is more a test of reflexes rather than knowledge (what you need to do is very obvious it's just a question of whether you are fast enough).
Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.
tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.
Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.
tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.
It is easier in one aspect which allows more depth and difficulty in another aspect.
In theory you could have a twitch based combat system as deep as say DDO with over 100 abilities available at max level and all kinds of different attacks and counter-attacks for specific situations but not many people would be able to keep track of that while also executing the twitch part.
There is a reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills available at one time.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.
Sad is only a matter of perspective.
Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.
It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.
You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.
it's because he is right.
I have to agree as well. Rts combat is best in rts games.
2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?
All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points: 1) The masses agree 2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games
This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.
Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.
RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?
Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.
Why do you assume it's people who do not like or want virtual worlds that want twitch combat mechanics? One is not representative of the other in the slightest. Hell your post makes doubly no sense considering the most popular Virtual World RPG series is TES which has always had twitch oriented combat mechanics. It was always the more linear story driven RPGS that offered turn-based combat.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.
tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.
It is easier in one aspect which allows more depth and difficulty in another aspect.
In theory you could have a twitch based combat system as deep as say DDO with over 100 abilities available at max level and all kinds of different attacks and counter-attacks for specific situations but not many people would be able to keep track of that while also executing the twitch part.
There is a reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills available at one time.
I don't understand why having it be tab targeting would allow for more skills. It's just the way you target something, that's it.
And the reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills is because the games with the most skills are MMOs and they are traditionally tab target because of technical limitations.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky All these players agreeing with nariusseldon. Goes to show 2 very interesting points: 1) The masses agree 2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their gamesThis is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.
Why do you assume it's people who do not like or want virtual worlds that want twitch combat mechanics? One is not representative of the other in the slightest. Hell your post makes doubly no sense considering the most popular Virtual World RPG series is TES which has always had twitch oriented combat mechanics. It was always the more linear story driven RPGS that offered turn-based combat.
I had another of my long-winded posts all written out, trying to explain my thoughts. After further consideration, I think it would be a waste of space, since you so missed the points I was trying to make in my other post.
You're right. I'm wrong. Carry on.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
i like tab target combat in mmos but when i have to rely on combat rotations and macros it stops being fun to me. I hope the decrease of skills coming with Warlors of Draenor makes the combat less relying on those rotations so everyone can be viable playing their class in their own way and not just playing with Icy-veins or Noxxic open.
Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.
tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.
It is easier in one aspect which allows more depth and difficulty in another aspect.
In theory you could have a twitch based combat system as deep as say DDO with over 100 abilities available at max level and all kinds of different attacks and counter-attacks for specific situations but not many people would be able to keep track of that while also executing the twitch part.
There is a reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills available at one time.
Yea... and there's also a reason why a gun doesnt have 10 buttons. Its called FOCUS in what you're doing - important things are happening - be aware - now that you're muscles have memorized all the 4 buttons and they're natural to you, now your brain can focus in the task at hand.
A tab targeting system can be played without even looking at the screen - I know - I've done it.
I understand the wheres and whys of the OP but... quite frankly this is evolution. I'm 34 and I already had to adapt to a lot of stuff (and btw in guns too) and honestly either you adapt or you lag behind until you fade.
In the future I will call this the "I-hate-this-touchscreen-phone" syndrome... yea well, you better either learn to like it, or adapt to it, because buttons WILL disappear and when that day comes you better be prepared because there will be NO phone the way YOU like it specially made for YOU.
Now for my personal opinion:
As for mmos... well... I've been a stalwart proponent of this "twitch-based combat system" (as you call it) since I played my first mmorpg. Why? Because hitting something that you dont have to target doesnt require skill whatsoever. I dont care how many buttons you have to press and how skillful you think that is... its not. Aim is a skill since the beginning of mankind: you miss you dont eat. You miss you dont survive to tell the story. You miss you dont get the fluffy teddy bear to give to your girlfriend. You miss and your family is getting a flag instead of you for christmas. There's no skill in pressing 74 buttons in any given order. Now theres a twitch if I ever saw one...
Did I make myself clear? Thats my personal opinion. Now I like I said I understand the op... but lets face it, its evolution or extinction.
I understand the wheres and whys of the OP but... quite frankly this is evolution. I'm 34 and I already had to adapt to a lot of stuff (and btw in guns too) and honestly either you adapt or you lag behind until you fade.
In the future I will call this the "I-hate-this-touchscreen-phone" syndrome... yea well, you better either learn to like it, or adapt to it, because buttons WILL disappear and when that day comes you better be prepared because there will be NO phone the way YOU like it specially made for YOU.
Now for my personal opinion:
As for mmos... well... I've been a stalwart proponent of this "twitch-based combat system" (as you call it) since I played my first mmorpg. Why? Because hitting something that you dont have to target doesnt require skill whatsoever. I dont care how many buttons you have to press and how skillful you think that is... its not. Aim is a skill since the beginning of mankind: you miss you dont eat. You miss you dont survive to tell the story. You miss you dont get the fluffy teddy bear to give to your girlfriend. You miss and your family is getting a flag instead of you for christmas. There's no skill in pressing 74 buttons in any given order. Now theres a twitch if I ever saw one...
Did I make myself clear? Thats my personal opinion. Now I like I said I understand the op... but lets face it, its evolution or extinction.
More like devolution. Basically twitch is making MMOs play MORE like the first video games like Space Invaders and Pac Mac.
And, again, I have to insist that this switch cannot be attributed to technology. I was playing twitch MMOs back in 2002.
The switch is due to:
1) The influx of console gamers into the market and the urge to design these games with these gamers in mind. Consoles generally don't have that many buttons, they only really work for twitch games. So when you make a video game for consoles, and then port it over to PC afterward, naturally the PC version will look very different than the old MMOs that were designed with PCs in mind first.
2) The move away from the idea that MMOs are an extension of pen-and-paper RPGs. Tab targeting and statistics based combat was meant to simulate the kind of combat that occurred when playing Dungeons and Dragons, a game which was about role-playing and involved zero twitch. The community in the old days was largely made up of people who grew up with pen and paper rpgs, that is no longer the case and the present community no longer desires that experience the way it used to.
Finally, to the person who was saying that Albquirky's suggestion that those who are pro-twitch are anti-rpg makes no sense since there is no inherent connection between the mechanics of the combat and the genre of the game, I would like to quickly repeat his earlier argument which you probably didn't read. It is simple:
Twitch combat means the player in REAL LIFE must have skill. Role playing games, on the other hand, are about pretending you are a great warrior or whatnot . . . they about YOUR CHARACTER'S skill. If your character can never achieve great skill because you suffer from carpal tunnel, for example, in real life, then the ROLE PLAYING element has been dramatically reduced since you can no longer pretend to be a great warrior, no matter how awesome your character may look, because you lack the skill in real life to make your character a great warrior. It removes the focus from your character and returns the focus to you in real life, and this is the opposite direction of what a role playing game is meant to achieve. That was his point I think.
Twitch combat means the player in REAL LIFE must have skill. Role playing games, on the other hand, are about pretending you are a great warrior or whatnot . . . they about YOUR CHARACTER'S skill. If your character can never achieve great skill because you suffer from carpal tunnel, for example, in real life, then the ROLE PLAYING element has been dramatically reduced since you can no longer pretend to be a great warrior, no matter how awesome your character may look, because you lack the skill in real life to make your character a great warrior. It removes the focus from your character and returns the focus to you in real life, and this is the opposite direction of what a role playing game is meant to achieve. That was his point I think.
Yes exactly my point and well said. Anyway games are about fun not "skill" if I want to go learn to shoot a gun in real life I'll go to a firing range as I'm sure I'd learn that skill a lot better by actually doing it rather than playing a video game.
I can appreciate that some people like twitch and find it exciting but I play RPGs to escape from reality and pretend to be someone or something else for a while. Putting twitch in an RPG really takes away from the RPG element. It's like putting stats and dice rolls in a first person shooter.
Hopefully there will continue to be at least some of the type of games if I like. If not I guess I will just stop playing them. There's no reason to "adapt" to something you don't care for if that thing is entertainment.
Twitch combat means the player in REAL LIFE must have skill. Role playing games, on the other hand, are about pretending you are a great warrior or whatnot . . . they about YOUR CHARACTER'S skill. If your character can never achieve great skill because you suffer from carpal tunnel, for example, in real life, then the ROLE PLAYING element has been dramatically reduced since you can no longer pretend to be a great warrior, no matter how awesome your character may look, because you lack the skill in real life to make your character a great warrior. It removes the focus from your character and returns the focus to you in real life, and this is the opposite direction of what a role playing game is meant to achieve. That was his point I think.
Well I'm sorry for sounding rude but this is just flat out silly. By this logic why have ANY difficulty whatsoever? Why even have you making the decisions? Why have you control your own character at all? Because people like to feel engaged and immersed. Twitch combat is one more layer of that. It may be too difficult for some people and break their immersion, but it's not some fundamentally different from any other kind of simulation.
You seem to think roleplaying means taking control AWAY from the player. This is wrong. It's merely stepping into somebody else's shoes.
Roleplaying means you are playing a character, think of it like an actor would take on a role. He has control over what the character does in the movie but he is not that character and he might be actually very different from that character in real life.
Roleplaying games can have quite complex systems and lots of stuff to remember. I don't get this attitude that anything that doesn't require twitch skills takes no skills at all. It's like saying chess takes no skill because it's different from basketball. They're totally different kinds of games.
Roleplaying means you are playing a character, think of it like an actor would take on a role. He has control over what the character does in the movie but he is not that character and he might be actually very different from that character in real life.
Roleplaying games can have quite complex systems and lots of stuff to remember. I don't get this attitude that anything that doesn't require twitch skills takes no skills at all. It's like saying chess takes no skill because it's different from basketball. They're totally different kinds of games.
It's not just about skill though. Tab targeting is just flat out boring for a lot of us. It's not that we want to show off our super leet twitch skills. It's just more engaging and immersive to have to constantly be doing something. It's not fun for me to hold S on my keyboard while I spam a spell at the mob. I'd prefer to be actively moving around, and because I'm moving around, that forces me to reorient my view so that I keep line of sight and hit my shot.
Twitch combat means the player in REAL LIFE must have skill. Role playing games, on the other hand, are about pretending you are a great warrior or whatnot . . . they about YOUR CHARACTER'S skill. If your character can never achieve great skill because you suffer from carpal tunnel, for example, in real life, then the ROLE PLAYING element has been dramatically reduced since you can no longer pretend to be a great warrior, no matter how awesome your character may look, because you lack the skill in real life to make your character a great warrior. It removes the focus from your character and returns the focus to you in real life, and this is the opposite direction of what a role playing game is meant to achieve. That was his point I think.
Well I'm sorry for sounding rude but this is just flat out silly. By this logic why have ANY difficulty whatsoever? Why even have you making the decisions? Why have you control your own character at all? Because people like to feel engaged and immersed. Twitch combat is one more layer of that. It may be too difficult for some people and break their immersion, but it's not some fundamentally different from any other kind of simulation.
You seem to think roleplaying means taking control AWAY from the player. This is wrong. It's merely stepping into somebody else's shoes.
You took it to an extreme in one direction, but you could easily take it to an extreme in the other direction. Imagine that in order to play as a bard in a RPG, instead of just pressing a button and letting your character perform a ballad, you had to actually perform that ballad yourself, in real life, using a virtual guitar. Or imagine that if your character were of the "painter" class, like in Age of Wushu, instead of your character making beautiful paintings you had to draw them yourself on an in game canvas. Imagine that your character was of an "engineer" class, but rather than letting your character perform the calculus equations needed to create his latest concoction, you had to perform them yourself and enter the data. Imagine that your character's appearance was mapped to a camera image of yourself in real life, or your character's dexterity was tied to your ability to move the mouse around with super agility in real life . . . oh, wait, that last one is precisely what we are talking about.
Originally posted by SomeHuman I totally agree. I like some "twitch" games, but I usually turn to a FPS for that. I prefer a more strategic combat in an MMORPG. I'd be all for a turn-based combat system in some of the up-and-coming titles. I have more fun playing a round of Hearthstone than I do running around ESO smacking stuff. But I enjoy the world exploration and other elements of your typical mmorpg like ESO.
100% this. Forget this twitch and GCD-laden MMORPG fare. What I'd really like to see is something like Wizard101's combat taken to the next level.
Twitch combat means the player in REAL LIFE must have skill. Role playing games, on the other hand, are about pretending you are a great warrior or whatnot . . . they about YOUR CHARACTER'S skill. If your character can never achieve great skill because you suffer from carpal tunnel, for example, in real life, then the ROLE PLAYING element has been dramatically reduced since you can no longer pretend to be a great warrior, no matter how awesome your character may look, because you lack the skill in real life to make your character a great warrior. It removes the focus from your character and returns the focus to you in real life, and this is the opposite direction of what a role playing game is meant to achieve. That was his point I think.
Well I'm sorry for sounding rude but this is just flat out silly. By this logic why have ANY difficulty whatsoever? Why even have you making the decisions? Why have you control your own character at all? Because people like to feel engaged and immersed. Twitch combat is one more layer of that. It may be too difficult for some people and break their immersion, but it's not some fundamentally different from any other kind of simulation.
You seem to think roleplaying means taking control AWAY from the player. This is wrong. It's merely stepping into somebody else's shoes.
You took it to an extreme in one direction, but you could easily take it to an extreme in the other direction. Imagine that in order to play as a bard in a RPG, instead of just pressing a button and letting your character perform a ballad, you had to actually perform that ballad yourself, in real life, using a virtual guitar. Or imagine that if your character were of the "painter" class, like in Age of Wushu, instead of your character making beautiful paintings you had to draw them yourself on an in game canvas. Imagine that your character was of an "engineer" class, but rather than letting your character perform the calculus equations needed to create his latest concoction, you had to perform them yourself and enter the data. Imagine that your character's appearance was mapped to a camera image of yourself in real life, or your character's dexterity was tied to your ability to move the mouse around with super agility in real life . . . oh, wait, that last one is precisely what we are talking about.
Well hang on a second, one of those things is not like the other. Playing an actual lute or actually painting a piece of art is NOT the same as manually aiming a bow with your mouse. The actual equivalent would be to ACTUALLY use a bow or cast a spell, not simply decide where it's being aimed.
But either way, all I'm saying is twitch aiming is not fundamentally different than you having to do anything else in the game. It's no different than walking around even. So that's fine if YOU PERSONALLY want to draw the line at twitch aiming, either because you're bad at it or just don't like it, but let's not pretend that there's some objective reason to draw the line there. It has NOTHING to do with roleplaying. Twitch aiming is not at all in conflict with roleplaying.
i think people here have different definitions of twitch
at this rate we can start arguing/debating over wheter movement through WASD is too twitch "
OH MY GOD he can switch between backward movement and forward movement faster than me!!! i have to use at least 2 seconds to find the damn button" if this is the case then yes even this is too twitch for you and you are playing the wrong genre
for me twitch describes how fast the pace of the combat is in the game
twitch based combat = very fast paced where people die fast and move fast, aim fast, etc and usualy to the point where i cant aim and hit for shit since everything is so fast
for me twitch doesnt mean action combat, even though most of the twitch usualy is in a game that happens to have action combat also
for example
games with Twitch combat = Gunz the duel, S4 league
Raiderz, Tera = action combat, but no twitch by any stretch of imagination (different genres i know, whats your point?)
even chess (TURNBASED BOARD GAME) becomes twitch when you blitz it which means that you only have thinking time around 1-5 seconds
so the key point is, what is required of you and how much time do you have/ need, to get it done?
to get ultimately rid of twitch the solution would be turnbased combat with no time limit to how long your turn is (imagine that)
mmm well thats sums up my comment...please continue
Originally posted by Wingeye i think people here have different definitions of twitchat this rate we can start arguing/debating over wheter movement through WASD is too twitch "OH MY GOD he can switch between backward movement and forward movement faster than me!!! i have to use at least 2 seconds to find the damn button" if this is the case then yes even this is too twitch for you and you are playing the wrong genrefor me twitch describes how fast the pace of the combat is in the gametwitch based combat = very fast paced where people die fast and move fast, aim fast, etc and usualy to the point where i cant aim and hit for shit since everything is so fastfor me twitch doesnt mean action combat, even though most of the twitch usualy is in a game that happens to have action combat alsofor examplegames with Twitch combat = Gunz the duel, S4 leagueRaiderz, Tera = action combat, but no twitch by any stretch of imagination (different genres i know, whats your point?)even chess (TURNBASED BOARD GAME) becomes twitch when you blitz it which means that you only have thinking time around 1-5 secondsso the key point is, what is required of you and how much time do you have/ need, to get it done?to get ultimately rid of twitch the solution would be turnbased combat with no time limit to how long your turn is (imagine that)mmm well thats sums up my comment...please continue
A fairly good summation. Even in tab targeting, your skills usually have some kind of "cool down" where a player can not just mash one button constantly, so timing will factor in somewhere.
Wizard101 had a great turn-based combat system that had a 30 second timer on each player's turn. That seemed to work well. A player still had time to peruse the spell cards in their hand, discard and draw a card or two if needed, and then choose a card to play for the round. Not very often did a player use the whole 30 seconds.
That is a good point about the "pace" of the combat. I enjoy a much slower pace than most players today.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Well hang on a second, one of those things is not like the other. Playing an actual lute or actually painting a piece of art is NOT the same as manually aiming a bow with your mouse. The actual equivalent would be to ACTUALLY use a bow or cast a spell, not simply decide where it's being aimed.
But either way, all I'm saying is twitch aiming is not fundamentally different than you having to do anything else in the game. It's no different than walking around even. So that's fine if YOU PERSONALLY want to draw the line at twitch aiming, either because you're bad at it or just don't like it, but let's not pretend that there's some objective reason to draw the line there. It has NOTHING to do with roleplaying. Twitch aiming is not at all in conflict with roleplaying.
Well said. . The two are just different forms of role-playing.. tab target or.. no movement combat allows you to role-play by solely using your imagination.. Like reading a book or watching a movie and imagining you are the character.
movement based combat is role-playing where you actually take on the role of the character you are portraying.. as some one mentioned above.. its like an actor playing a character in a movie or switching jobs at work with a coworker.. you are actively playing the role instead of being passive about it.
Originally posted by Holophonist But either way, all I'm saying is twitch aiming is not fundamentally different than you having to do anything else in the game. It's no different than walking around even. So that's fine if YOU PERSONALLY want to draw the line at twitch aiming, either because you're bad at it or just don't like it, but let's not pretend that there's some objective reason to draw the line there. It has NOTHING to do with roleplaying. Twitch aiming is not at all in conflict with roleplaying.
This is where we disagree. Roleplayng, for me, is all about my character, not me. When you are mouse aiming, *you* are the one fighting, not your character. Also, when you aim, there is no missing your target, except if they dodge, parry, or block, but *your* aiming always hits where *you* are aiming. 100% accuracy.
Tab targeting uses RNG to figure out if *your character* hits or not. Just because you are facing the right way does not mean 100% accuracy, even when the target is "locked on" your character can miss.
This is a huge difference for me. I think that qualifies as an "objective reason."
The rest of the game, you are "guiding" your character. "Hey, Koldaar, go mine some ore here." "Hey, Florry, use a Fireball spell now." "Hey, Kincaid, play me a song (you're the piano man)."
Am I making sense?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
1) The masses agree
2) The masses do not want RPG elements in their games
This is what makers me sad. Players who never wanted a virtual world for their character's to play around in have taken over and changed a whole genre. It's not just MMORPGs, either. Single Player RPGs also suffer from these "my abilities trump my character's abilities" masses.
Tab targeting is NOT turn based. It can be, certainly, but you all are "assuming" turn based is the ONLY kind of combat players who dislike twitch combat want. EQ was "real time". You just did not get to click the dodge/block/riposte buttons. They did not exist for you TO click. They were skills that your character knew, not you, the player.
RTS games. How many of you pause those RTS games in order to get your units orders? Not really RTS if one pauses all the time, now is it?
Congratulations. You've morphed many game genres into your beloved FPS games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Then why have any genre of games at all, lets make all of them MOBAs and be done with it. Even better, facebook games are even more popular than anything else out there, lets emulate them and screw everything and everyone else.
If it was really 90% of people that preferred twitch combat I don't think turn based games would be enjoying a renaissance led by crowdfunding. Bottom line is both types of combat can require great amounts of skill (different type of skills) and I think there will always be a market for both sorts of games.
Maybe MMOs should ditch the hotbars and figure out a way to make actual turn based combat work well in the MMO format though. I know a few have attempted it.
I don't know, Nariusseldon is very fond of claiming that "the masses" agree with him (reminds me of a common tactic in political debate). There really is no proof of this. Sure FPS games are popular but it doesn't mean that there isn't a large group of people that isn't looking for something different and not being served right now.
Reminds me the time about 10 years ago that I heard some "expert" talking head on TV saying that "No one wants to take pictures with their cell phone. This is the stupidest idea ever and is going to totally bomb."
For one thing tab-targeting and turn based allows a lot more skills to be available which the player must keep track of and learn and use together.
Twitch combat usually has a much shorter list of skills available and is more a test of reflexes rather than knowledge (what you need to do is very obvious it's just a question of whether you are fast enough).
For one thing tab-targeting and turn based allows a lot more skills to be available which the player must keep track of and learn and use together.
Twitch combat usually has a much shorter list of skills available and is more a test of reflexes rather than knowledge (what you need to do is very obvious it's just a question of whether you are fast enough).
Well I'm not talking about turn based combat, because that's a separate issue. I'm just talking about the targeting system. Tab targeting doesn't magically allow you to have more abilities.tab targeting is easier. That's what this is about. It's ok to want something that is easier, but let's just call it what it is. And by the way, the reason pro twitch people think tab targeting is boring, is precisely because of the fact that it is easier and less engaging.
It is easier in one aspect which allows more depth and difficulty in another aspect.
In theory you could have a twitch based combat system as deep as say DDO with over 100 abilities available at max level and all kinds of different attacks and counter-attacks for specific situations but not many people would be able to keep track of that while also executing the twitch part.
There is a reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills available at one time.
Why do you assume it's people who do not like or want virtual worlds that want twitch combat mechanics? One is not representative of the other in the slightest. Hell your post makes doubly no sense considering the most popular Virtual World RPG series is TES which has always had twitch oriented combat mechanics. It was always the more linear story driven RPGS that offered turn-based combat.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't understand why having it be tab targeting would allow for more skills. It's just the way you target something, that's it.
And the reason why most twitch games have like 10 or less skills is because the games with the most skills are MMOs and they are traditionally tab target because of technical limitations.
You're right. I'm wrong. Carry on.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
i like tab target combat in mmos but when i have to rely on combat rotations and macros it stops being fun to me. I hope the decrease of skills coming with Warlors of Draenor makes the combat less relying on those rotations so everyone can be viable playing their class in their own way and not just playing with Icy-veins or Noxxic open.
Yea... and there's also a reason why a gun doesnt have 10 buttons. Its called FOCUS in what you're doing - important things are happening - be aware - now that you're muscles have memorized all the 4 buttons and they're natural to you, now your brain can focus in the task at hand.
A tab targeting system can be played without even looking at the screen - I know - I've done it.
I understand the wheres and whys of the OP but... quite frankly this is evolution. I'm 34 and I already had to adapt to a lot of stuff (and btw in guns too) and honestly either you adapt or you lag behind until you fade.
In the future I will call this the "I-hate-this-touchscreen-phone" syndrome... yea well, you better either learn to like it, or adapt to it, because buttons WILL disappear and when that day comes you better be prepared because there will be NO phone the way YOU like it specially made for YOU.
Now for my personal opinion:
As for mmos... well... I've been a stalwart proponent of this "twitch-based combat system" (as you call it) since I played my first mmorpg. Why? Because hitting something that you dont have to target doesnt require skill whatsoever. I dont care how many buttons you have to press and how skillful you think that is... its not. Aim is a skill since the beginning of mankind: you miss you dont eat. You miss you dont survive to tell the story. You miss you dont get the fluffy teddy bear to give to your girlfriend. You miss and your family is getting a flag instead of you for christmas. There's no skill in pressing 74 buttons in any given order. Now theres a twitch if I ever saw one...
Did I make myself clear? Thats my personal opinion. Now I like I said I understand the op... but lets face it, its evolution or extinction.
More like devolution. Basically twitch is making MMOs play MORE like the first video games like Space Invaders and Pac Mac.
And, again, I have to insist that this switch cannot be attributed to technology. I was playing twitch MMOs back in 2002.
The switch is due to:
1) The influx of console gamers into the market and the urge to design these games with these gamers in mind. Consoles generally don't have that many buttons, they only really work for twitch games. So when you make a video game for consoles, and then port it over to PC afterward, naturally the PC version will look very different than the old MMOs that were designed with PCs in mind first.
2) The move away from the idea that MMOs are an extension of pen-and-paper RPGs. Tab targeting and statistics based combat was meant to simulate the kind of combat that occurred when playing Dungeons and Dragons, a game which was about role-playing and involved zero twitch. The community in the old days was largely made up of people who grew up with pen and paper rpgs, that is no longer the case and the present community no longer desires that experience the way it used to.
Finally, to the person who was saying that Albquirky's suggestion that those who are pro-twitch are anti-rpg makes no sense since there is no inherent connection between the mechanics of the combat and the genre of the game, I would like to quickly repeat his earlier argument which you probably didn't read. It is simple:
Twitch combat means the player in REAL LIFE must have skill. Role playing games, on the other hand, are about pretending you are a great warrior or whatnot . . . they about YOUR CHARACTER'S skill. If your character can never achieve great skill because you suffer from carpal tunnel, for example, in real life, then the ROLE PLAYING element has been dramatically reduced since you can no longer pretend to be a great warrior, no matter how awesome your character may look, because you lack the skill in real life to make your character a great warrior. It removes the focus from your character and returns the focus to you in real life, and this is the opposite direction of what a role playing game is meant to achieve. That was his point I think.
Yes exactly my point and well said. Anyway games are about fun not "skill" if I want to go learn to shoot a gun in real life I'll go to a firing range as I'm sure I'd learn that skill a lot better by actually doing it rather than playing a video game.
I can appreciate that some people like twitch and find it exciting but I play RPGs to escape from reality and pretend to be someone or something else for a while. Putting twitch in an RPG really takes away from the RPG element. It's like putting stats and dice rolls in a first person shooter.
Hopefully there will continue to be at least some of the type of games if I like. If not I guess I will just stop playing them. There's no reason to "adapt" to something you don't care for if that thing is entertainment.
Well I'm sorry for sounding rude but this is just flat out silly. By this logic why have ANY difficulty whatsoever? Why even have you making the decisions? Why have you control your own character at all? Because people like to feel engaged and immersed. Twitch combat is one more layer of that. It may be too difficult for some people and break their immersion, but it's not some fundamentally different from any other kind of simulation.
You seem to think roleplaying means taking control AWAY from the player. This is wrong. It's merely stepping into somebody else's shoes.
Roleplaying means you are playing a character, think of it like an actor would take on a role. He has control over what the character does in the movie but he is not that character and he might be actually very different from that character in real life.
Roleplaying games can have quite complex systems and lots of stuff to remember. I don't get this attitude that anything that doesn't require twitch skills takes no skills at all. It's like saying chess takes no skill because it's different from basketball. They're totally different kinds of games.
It's not just about skill though. Tab targeting is just flat out boring for a lot of us. It's not that we want to show off our super leet twitch skills. It's just more engaging and immersive to have to constantly be doing something. It's not fun for me to hold S on my keyboard while I spam a spell at the mob. I'd prefer to be actively moving around, and because I'm moving around, that forces me to reorient my view so that I keep line of sight and hit my shot.
You took it to an extreme in one direction, but you could easily take it to an extreme in the other direction. Imagine that in order to play as a bard in a RPG, instead of just pressing a button and letting your character perform a ballad, you had to actually perform that ballad yourself, in real life, using a virtual guitar. Or imagine that if your character were of the "painter" class, like in Age of Wushu, instead of your character making beautiful paintings you had to draw them yourself on an in game canvas. Imagine that your character was of an "engineer" class, but rather than letting your character perform the calculus equations needed to create his latest concoction, you had to perform them yourself and enter the data. Imagine that your character's appearance was mapped to a camera image of yourself in real life, or your character's dexterity was tied to your ability to move the mouse around with super agility in real life . . . oh, wait, that last one is precisely what we are talking about.
100% this. Forget this twitch and GCD-laden MMORPG fare. What I'd really like to see is something like Wizard101's combat taken to the next level.
Well hang on a second, one of those things is not like the other. Playing an actual lute or actually painting a piece of art is NOT the same as manually aiming a bow with your mouse. The actual equivalent would be to ACTUALLY use a bow or cast a spell, not simply decide where it's being aimed.
But either way, all I'm saying is twitch aiming is not fundamentally different than you having to do anything else in the game. It's no different than walking around even. So that's fine if YOU PERSONALLY want to draw the line at twitch aiming, either because you're bad at it or just don't like it, but let's not pretend that there's some objective reason to draw the line there. It has NOTHING to do with roleplaying. Twitch aiming is not at all in conflict with roleplaying.
i think people here have different definitions of twitch
at this rate we can start arguing/debating over wheter movement through WASD is too twitch "
OH MY GOD he can switch between backward movement and forward movement faster than me!!! i have to use at least 2 seconds to find the damn button" if this is the case then yes even this is too twitch for you and you are playing the wrong genre
for me twitch describes how fast the pace of the combat is in the game
twitch based combat = very fast paced where people die fast and move fast, aim fast, etc and usualy to the point where i cant aim and hit for shit since everything is so fast
for me twitch doesnt mean action combat, even though most of the twitch usualy is in a game that happens to have action combat also
for example
games with Twitch combat = Gunz the duel, S4 league
Raiderz, Tera = action combat, but no twitch by any stretch of imagination (different genres i know, whats your point?)
even chess (TURNBASED BOARD GAME) becomes twitch when you blitz it which means that you only have thinking time around 1-5 seconds
Wizard101 had a great turn-based combat system that had a 30 second timer on each player's turn. That seemed to work well. A player still had time to peruse the spell cards in their hand, discard and draw a card or two if needed, and then choose a card to play for the round. Not very often did a player use the whole 30 seconds.
That is a good point about the "pace" of the combat. I enjoy a much slower pace than most players today.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Well said.
. The two are just different forms of role-playing.. tab target or.. no movement combat allows you to role-play by solely using your imagination.. Like reading a book or watching a movie and imagining you are the character.
movement based combat is role-playing where you actually take on the role of the character you are portraying.. as some one mentioned above.. its like an actor playing a character in a movie or switching jobs at work with a coworker.. you are actively playing the role instead of being passive about it.
Tab targeting uses RNG to figure out if *your character* hits or not. Just because you are facing the right way does not mean 100% accuracy, even when the target is "locked on" your character can miss.
This is a huge difference for me. I think that qualifies as an "objective reason."
The rest of the game, you are "guiding" your character.
"Hey, Koldaar, go mine some ore here."
"Hey, Florry, use a Fireball spell now."
"Hey, Kincaid, play me a song (you're the piano man)."
Am I making sense?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR