In Ops video first boss.. took them less than a minute to kill it ....
Wow what a challenge !
Second Boss..
wow look at those health bars .. no one gets close to dying ...
Third Boss
Piece of piss
Final boss.
wow that was real tough too.
Lets go ahead and make the obvious comparisons here.
How many times did you die in Deadmines (WoW)
How many times did you die in Realm of the Fae (RIFT)
How many times did you die in The Black Talon (SWTOR)
Those are similar dungeons. Low level dungeons, designed for players that are grouping for the FIRST TIME in a new game.
Now lets take it a step further and use our brain cells. How many "cuts" does that video have in it. Do you think that was their first trip through said dungeon?
Players died all the time in Deadmines in vanilla wow. Several times per run.
Realm of the Fae some did .. becasue of monkee specs .. hybrids they thought were cool
cant rember black talon .. i remember people dying in some early instance runs though (mainly from bugs mind)
and you can expect a similar body count from this. Will it be extreme no.... it isn't suppose to be at this point.
The most challenging aspect of ESO is that the game doesn't explicitly state what makes a good tank so players will have to find out how to mix and match skill lines to create a tank of their own. There's nothing forcing a tank to go sword and board and stack a specific stat.
For example, maybe you want to play a self sustaining tank so you pick up a resto staff, wear heavy armor, use abilities from the nightblade siphon tree and mix those with shield spells from elemental skills and a couple aggro attacks.
Or maybe you've found evasive and shielding abilities more to your liking, so you go with light or medium armor, dual wielding with skills that make you tougher to hit and take less damage.
So it'll be important to group with players who know how to focus a build to succeed.
Same for healing. Maybe you don't want to be a stand in the back caster type healer. Maybe you want to use a 2h weapon and have your attacks heals the group while a couple magic type heals are reserved for emergencies.
It looks fun? (raised eyebrow) While that is subjective, I see nothing innovative, challenging, or unique about a dungeon that is scripted like every other dungeon that has come before it that would make this fun; with mobs providing no deviation whether it's your first trip or 1,000th trip into it. This blueprint of entering a dungeon where the trash / boss mobs are in the exact same place they were before and do the exact same thing they did the last time to fend you off offers nothing that we haven't already played or seen for the past 10+ years in MMORPG's.
I get what you're saying, but can you give me an example of a game where the dungeon somehow adjusts to provide a more appropriate challenge every time you do it?
I'm a huge fan of dynamic content myself, but most dungeons that i've seen that have been done with dynamic content were actually LESS difficult than their pre-scripted counterparts.
Plus, while the dungeons built this way always stay the same, your group makeup changes, which is what makes them different each run.
Give me an example of dungeons that provide the sort of challenge you're looking for?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
I haven't played ESO dungeons so I will take your knowledge as fact for now. You know a lot more about it than I do or can ascertain from a video with too many unknowns.
As a side issue.
What sort of XP gain are we lookign at doing these dungeon runs relative to ordinary quests or other activities that might be completed in the same timescales. ie is it relatviely good XP if you are in an average skilled group ?
What is loot like ?
Do players substantially need to complete these dungeons to progress ?
What is the balance between XP gain in pvp and xp gain in pve at these sort of low character levels ? ie can you level faster in pvp over a session of a few hours vs pve over the same time period ?
What were the main ghroup challenges you faced i nthese dungeons ? ie what were players/groups not doing that caused them to fail/die ?
It looks like they're having too easy of a time, but that can be deceptive as they might be a little higher level than the dungeon, or simply skilled. Does anyone know if the dungeon is a place you can explore or is it just a linear one-way street on rails etc. and other assorted negative words for only having one way to go?
This is what i'd like to know as well.
Also, are the dungeons connected to the outside world in any way, or are they just minigames inside the soloable, storydriven rpg? Can you farm those 'skill shards' all day by spamming dungeon finder, run dungeons and never leave a town?
I haven't played ESO dungeons so I will take your knowledge as fact for now. You know a lot more about it than I do or can ascertain from a video with too many unknowns.
As a side issue.
What sort of XP gain are we lookign at doing these dungeon runs relative to ordinary quests or other activities that might be completed in the same timescales. ie is it relatviely good XP if you are in an average skilled group ?
What is loot like ?
Do players substantially need to complete these dungeons to progress ?
What is the balance between XP gain in pvp and xp gain in pve at these sort of low character levels ? ie can you level faster in pvp over a session of a few hours vs pve over the same time period ?
What were the main ghroup challenges you faced i nthese dungeons ? ie what were players/groups not doing that caused them to fail/die ?
I'm sorry but I read your post's and look at your avatar and it just makes me smile. It fits the tone of your comments so well.
1. They are very coordinated and equip skills that fill their roll well and synergize with their team-mates
2. The dungeon is meant for level 12-15. If you are level 15 (with weapon swapping + more skills + higher stats) the content is substantially easier. I can tell these guys are level 15+
It is entirely possible to constantly wipe if you don't have the levels and/or a balanced skill set among the 4 people.
It looks fun? (raised eyebrow) While that is subjective, I see nothing innovative, challenging, or unique about a dungeon that is scripted like every other dungeon that has come before it that would make this fun; with mobs providing no deviation whether it's your first trip or 1,000th trip into it. This blueprint of entering a dungeon where the trash / boss mobs are in the exact same place they were before and do the exact same thing they did the last time to fend you off offers nothing that we haven't already played or seen for the past 10+ years in MMORPG's.
...If your idea of fun is described as: "Pls provide me with no challenge and allow me (and everyone else) to run "X" dungeon for the bazillionth time until I can do it with my eyes closed so I can collect all of the exact same loot that can possibly be gotten from inside of it, and torture me for the next 6 months to a year with this very same dungeon until the next patch is released so I can enjoy the next dungeon (and every dungeon thereafter) in the exact same fashion...." .....then yes, I suppose this is fun.
The only thing I can think of with randomized content is the Diablo series, which we can all still do with our eyes closed.
What is your solution for dungeons? Be careful how you answer that, least ye be judged for a concept that is impossible to implement.
So let me get the facts straight...you started a post stating "looks fun to me," with no input or indication as to why. I question the validity of that statement by providing feedback as to why this does not appear to be fun, and your retort is to challenge what I would do to fix it. Before we begin to discuss what I would do to fix it, I would ask that we not pollute this until we deal with the first issue; then we can move onto the next (what I would do to resolve this).
That being said, does this mean you are in agreement with my post, changed your position, and don't think it's fun anymore? Or do you oppose what I have stated? I still am unclear as to why this "looks fun to you" and further confused by what your position is after the response you provided. Be careful how you answer that, least ye be judged for not providing information to support your initial position or for changing it and being indecisive.
I'm not 100% sure about anything with dungeons. Having said that... I think there is a group finder, but I don't know any specifics about it. Hopefully it does not babysit you and hold your hand to the point of auto grouping you like WoW does.
The last game I played without a dungeon finder of any sort was TSW, there I ended up sitting in Agartha and spam LFG or LFM for 20min -1h each time. Quite annoying for a dungeon that takes 10-20min.
I don't have unlimited time so I prefer to spend that dead time questing or crafting and then get a popup and a teleport, but that's just me, I respect those who prefer not to have dungeon finders. I understand the negative sides like rude people or not talking to each other etc. It's however not a big issue for me.
I haven't played ESO dungeons so I will take your knowledge as fact for now. You know a lot more about it than I do or can ascertain from a video with too many unknowns.
As a side issue.
What sort of XP gain are we lookign at doing these dungeon runs relative to ordinary quests or other activities that might be completed in the same timescales. ie is it relatviely good XP if you are in an average skilled group ?
What is loot like ?
Do players substantially need to complete these dungeons to progress ?
What is the balance between XP gain in pvp and xp gain in pve at these sort of low character levels ? ie can you level faster in pvp over a session of a few hours vs pve over the same time period ?
What were the main ghroup challenges you faced i nthese dungeons ? ie what were players/groups not doing that caused them to fail/die ?
Loot - Greens, blues, crafting mats, soul gems. They failed to show boss loot several times in that video, but there are a few cases where you can pause and catch a glance at what they are picking up.
Dungeons do not appear to be required content. However, there is a guild (they speak about it briefly in the video) called The Undaunted that revolved around dungeon completion. They offer their own skill line, which you can only progress in by completing dungeons.
From what I have seen exp in PVP is slow, but similar to The Undaunted there are Alliances skill lines to unlock.
Not knowing when to move and more importantly, not using your active block at the right time will get you smashed. Active block is one of my favorite things from ES games. It can negate damage and negate CC.
It looks fun? (raised eyebrow) While that is subjective, I see nothing innovative, challenging, or unique about a dungeon that is scripted like every other dungeon that has come before it that would make this fun; with mobs providing no deviation whether it's your first trip or 1,000th trip into it. This blueprint of entering a dungeon where the trash / boss mobs are in the exact same place they were before and do the exact same thing they did the last time to fend you off offers nothing that we haven't already played or seen for the past 10+ years in MMORPG's.
I get what you're saying, but can you give me an example of a game where the dungeon somehow adjusts to provide a more appropriate challenge every time you do it?
Your question is EXACTLY my request; not what we have seen time and time again.
It looks fun? (raised eyebrow) While that is subjective, I see nothing innovative, challenging, or unique about a dungeon that is scripted like every other dungeon that has come before it that would make this fun; with mobs providing no deviation whether it's your first trip or 1,000th trip into it. This blueprint of entering a dungeon where the trash / boss mobs are in the exact same place they were before and do the exact same thing they did the last time to fend you off offers nothing that we haven't already played or seen for the past 10+ years in MMORPG's.
I get what you're saying, but can you give me an example of a game where the dungeon somehow adjusts to provide a more appropriate challenge every time you do it?
Your question is EXACTLY my point; not what we have seen time and time again.
Well, many of the dungeons I've played that have been designed this way were indeed fun. So yes, this dungeon looks like it is fun to play through. And the 4 people seen playing seem to be having fun doing it.
Now, you imply that this type of dungeon design is not fun and a different one should be used. So i ask again, in your experience, what dungeon design has been "fun" to you? I take pride in playing a lot of different MMOs and exploring different mechanics, if there is a kind of fun that i'm missing out on, then I'd like to know where it is so i can try it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by Fermian Looks good, however, I think 4 man groups is a bad move. Just a bad dps vs healer vs tank ratio.
yeah.. I don't know why they go for 4 man dungeons, I fear it will be even harder for DPS to get into dungeons, since there is only 2 slots for them. Most people play DPS in my experience.
It looks fun? (raised eyebrow) While that is subjective, I see nothing innovative, challenging, or unique about a dungeon that is scripted like every other dungeon that has come before it that would make this fun; with mobs providing no deviation whether it's your first trip or 1,000th trip into it. This blueprint of entering a dungeon where the trash / boss mobs are in the exact same place they were before and do the exact same thing they did the last time to fend you off offers nothing that we haven't already played or seen for the past 10+ years in MMORPG's.
I get what you're saying, but can you give me an example of a game where the dungeon somehow adjusts to provide a more appropriate challenge every time you do it?
Your question is EXACTLY my point; not what we have seen time and time again.
Well, many of the dungeons I've played that have been designed this way were indeed fun. So yes, this dungeon looks like it is fun to play through. And the 4 people seen playing seem to be having fun doing it.
Now, you imply that this type of dungeon design is not fun and a different one should be used. So i ask again, in your experience, what dungeon design has been "fun" to you? I take pride in playing a lot of different MMOs and exploring different mechanics, if there is a kind of fun that i'm missing out on, then I'd like to know where it is so i can try it.
I appreciate and respect the fact you enjoy dungeons that are designed this way (the same every time). For me, are they fun the10th.....20th...100th time I do them? For me, the answer is no.
Of course the four ppl playing it seem to be having fun doing it. It's new to them isn't it? Let's see if it's still as fun 6 months to a year from now when they have run it over and over and over again.
I don't imply this type of dungeon is not fun, Im clearly stating it isnt. Furthermore, in doing so, i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.
Comments
and you can expect a similar body count from this. Will it be extreme no.... it isn't suppose to be at this point.
The most challenging aspect of ESO is that the game doesn't explicitly state what makes a good tank so players will have to find out how to mix and match skill lines to create a tank of their own. There's nothing forcing a tank to go sword and board and stack a specific stat.
For example, maybe you want to play a self sustaining tank so you pick up a resto staff, wear heavy armor, use abilities from the nightblade siphon tree and mix those with shield spells from elemental skills and a couple aggro attacks.
Or maybe you've found evasive and shielding abilities more to your liking, so you go with light or medium armor, dual wielding with skills that make you tougher to hit and take less damage.
So it'll be important to group with players who know how to focus a build to succeed.
Same for healing. Maybe you don't want to be a stand in the back caster type healer. Maybe you want to use a 2h weapon and have your attacks heals the group while a couple magic type heals are reserved for emergencies.
I get what you're saying, but can you give me an example of a game where the dungeon somehow adjusts to provide a more appropriate challenge every time you do it?
I'm a huge fan of dynamic content myself, but most dungeons that i've seen that have been done with dynamic content were actually LESS difficult than their pre-scripted counterparts.
Plus, while the dungeons built this way always stay the same, your group makeup changes, which is what makes them different each run.
Give me an example of dungeons that provide the sort of challenge you're looking for?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I haven't played ESO dungeons so I will take your knowledge as fact for now. You know a lot more about it than I do or can ascertain from a video with too many unknowns.
As a side issue.
What sort of XP gain are we lookign at doing these dungeon runs relative to ordinary quests or other activities that might be completed in the same timescales. ie is it relatviely good XP if you are in an average skilled group ?
What is loot like ?
Do players substantially need to complete these dungeons to progress ?
What is the balance between XP gain in pvp and xp gain in pve at these sort of low character levels ? ie can you level faster in pvp over a session of a few hours vs pve over the same time period ?
What were the main ghroup challenges you faced i nthese dungeons ? ie what were players/groups not doing that caused them to fail/die ?
This is what i'd like to know as well.
Also, are the dungeons connected to the outside world in any way, or are they just minigames inside the soloable, storydriven rpg? Can you farm those 'skill shards' all day by spamming dungeon finder, run dungeons and never leave a town?
I'm sorry but I read your post's and look at your avatar and it just makes me smile. It fits the tone of your comments so well.
2 reasons these guys cleared so fast/easily
1. They are very coordinated and equip skills that fill their roll well and synergize with their team-mates
2. The dungeon is meant for level 12-15. If you are level 15 (with weapon swapping + more skills + higher stats) the content is substantially easier. I can tell these guys are level 15+
It is entirely possible to constantly wipe if you don't have the levels and/or a balanced skill set among the 4 people.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
So let me get the facts straight...you started a post stating "looks fun to me," with no input or indication as to why. I question the validity of that statement by providing feedback as to why this does not appear to be fun, and your retort is to challenge what I would do to fix it. Before we begin to discuss what I would do to fix it, I would ask that we not pollute this until we deal with the first issue; then we can move onto the next (what I would do to resolve this).
That being said, does this mean you are in agreement with my post, changed your position, and don't think it's fun anymore? Or do you oppose what I have stated? I still am unclear as to why this "looks fun to you" and further confused by what your position is after the response you provided. Be careful how you answer that, least ye be judged for not providing information to support your initial position or for changing it and being indecisive.
The last game I played without a dungeon finder of any sort was TSW, there I ended up sitting in Agartha and spam LFG or LFM for 20min -1h each time. Quite annoying for a dungeon that takes 10-20min.
I don't have unlimited time so I prefer to spend that dead time questing or crafting and then get a popup and a teleport, but that's just me, I respect those who prefer not to have dungeon finders. I understand the negative sides like rude people or not talking to each other etc. It's however not a big issue for me.
Loot - Greens, blues, crafting mats, soul gems. They failed to show boss loot several times in that video, but there are a few cases where you can pause and catch a glance at what they are picking up.
Dungeons do not appear to be required content. However, there is a guild (they speak about it briefly in the video) called The Undaunted that revolved around dungeon completion. They offer their own skill line, which you can only progress in by completing dungeons.
From what I have seen exp in PVP is slow, but similar to The Undaunted there are Alliances skill lines to unlock.
Not knowing when to move and more importantly, not using your active block at the right time will get you smashed. Active block is one of my favorite things from ES games. It can negate damage and negate CC.
Technically, maybe... I know you can probably raid group smaller groups together but not sure about Dungeons or anything like that.
Your question is EXACTLY my request; not what we have seen time and time again.
Well, many of the dungeons I've played that have been designed this way were indeed fun. So yes, this dungeon looks like it is fun to play through. And the 4 people seen playing seem to be having fun doing it.
Now, you imply that this type of dungeon design is not fun and a different one should be used. So i ask again, in your experience, what dungeon design has been "fun" to you? I take pride in playing a lot of different MMOs and exploring different mechanics, if there is a kind of fun that i'm missing out on, then I'd like to know where it is so i can try it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
yeah.. I don't know why they go for 4 man dungeons, I fear it will be even harder for DPS to get into dungeons, since there is only 2 slots for them. Most people play DPS in my experience.
How's it a bad ratio? 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 dps, 1 support.
I personally prefer larger groups since it makes for less cliques and more public grouping, but from a ratio perspective, 4 makes the most sense.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
You were dieing all the time in Deadmines? Ahaha what a nub sauce you must have been !
Unless you're talking about random newbs without comms or any knowledge of neither dungeon, classes or MMOs in general?
People died tons in Stormhold and Fallen Gate (early EQ2 dungeons).
People died plenty in TSW (it has some of the best dungeons i've played actually).
People died lots in the first RIft dungeon, they it got nerfed hard
(Not realm of the fae, the other side one, i forget name, fae was always easy).
So yeah, people do die. Gotta be some skill involved in play. This looks like just a solid group though.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Some are, some not. It looks liek these 4-man ones are.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I appreciate and respect the fact you enjoy dungeons that are designed this way (the same every time). For me, are they fun the10th.....20th...100th time I do them? For me, the answer is no.
Of course the four ppl playing it seem to be having fun doing it. It's new to them isn't it? Let's see if it's still as fun 6 months to a year from now when they have run it over and over and over again.
I don't imply this type of dungeon is not fun, Im clearly stating it isnt. Furthermore, in doing so, i've also made it quite clear (again) what design IS fun for me.