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Dungeons: Symptom of what is wrong with MMOs
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
I know the whippersnappers who only know post WoW-Dungeons of today can't hear it anymore. The talk of the grand old days. Even I accept I could not take all the hardships of the past. But one thing that really grinds my gears is the sheer deneration and decay of a once epic concept: Dungeons!
Back in the days of D&D, Pen and Paper and the early Everquest era dungeons, and boy entire single player games revolved solely around dungeons. Ultima Underworld! An epic fight against the end boss, the Slasher of Veils, after MONTHS real life time dungeon crawling is something I NEVER will forgoet. Against months long complex dungeon romps like Stonekeep or Anvil of Dawn, even the retro-game Grimrock is simplistic and childlike easy! People today playing dungeons have no idea what a Dungeon actually is.
A Dungeon is something large. So large you can get lost in it. Dungeon romp PC games of the past literally kept me busy for months, up to half a year, and even at a time when I was a student with plenty of time. Simply because they were VAST and FUCKING DANGEROUS. There were traps! And those traps were DEADLY. Now play "Neverwinter", it has traps like the old D&D had, only they are not at all like them. I played a Rogue in a dungeon run in Neverwinter, and the party just RAN through the dungeon, because they were easily able to soak up the traps and there was ZERO risk in running. Running like that through any of the old dungeons would have been literally impossible, because you'd be dead in seconds.
Which is how Dungeons are SUPPOSED to be.
Take this epic Dungeon from the PnP Greyhawk:
THIS is how Dungeons looked in the Pen and Paper days. When Dungeoneering dangerous and epic.
The came MMOs. They made stuff a bit toned down, but they were still large and epic.
This was Solusek from Everquest. Coo, detailed, deadly, interesting.
Aaaand this is how Dungeons are today:
In this case one image indeed says more than a 1000 words. Dungeons are a FARCE and this is really the newest low in the development of Dungeons. Why not save us the hassle and eliminate Dungeons entirely instead of this JOKE of a dungeon. Or copy and Dungeon map from SWTOR. Three rooms in a row. No risks, no secret rooms, no puzzles, nothing to think and ponder. Do you recall the Morrowind puzzle where you could enter a room only when you drowned and died? Wow, there was only a VERY vague hint. That is challange. Today's challange is just, put 20 mobs in every room. Wow. How genius and thoughtful. In today's MMOs people are GRINDING dungeons! Like it were some lame pig you grinded for achievements! People rush in 10-20 mins speedruns and do the same dungeons 20 times a day to grind some rare token. That is just the very antithesis to danger and fun! Why not make one badass huge dungeon and make it SO large people take days or weeks to see most of it, instead of coercing them to do the same small dungeon 20 times a day? Would that not serve the purpose to keep people playing much better??
Now don't ge me wrong. I don't need corpse runs or super heavy death penalities. That doesn't appeal me. But Dungeons are one of the most privotal fantasy stuff, ever since Gandalf died in the Mines of Moria. But today, they are a frigging joke, they are a blight and a shame and alas a symbol and symptom for all that is WRONG with MMOs in particular but the RPGs in general. The famous internet meme based on FPS devolution is even more sad with RPGs, since Dungeons were once a central part of RPG and MMORPG fun. THESE today are simply lame, even if the devs put 50 mobs in every room. And god forbid some player actually has to THINK or memorize BY HIMSELF what to do! As long as this is the trend, MMOs and RPGs will never be as cool and fun as they used to be.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
If simplified dungeons is the symptom, what's the cause?
The average gamer is as follows;
50/50 Male Female
36 to 37 YEARS OLD
Is it any surprised that the trend is towards 'less consecutive time in a hole in the ground'?
10 years ago, yeah, the average gamer had heaps of free time.
Now more than 50% is approaching 40s and would have things like 'kids / partner / jobs'.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I highly doubt this is true. Take any of the Triple A MMos, I just doubt there is a substantial part of MMO gamers who really play a MMO so casual as to play, say 2-3 hours a week. People with so little time don't play MMOs. They play other stuff, simplay because MMos are always very, very time consuming. So instead of doing a huge ass dungeon where you are lost in for, say, 5 hours, the redo the same dungeon 20 times in those 5 hours to grind a gear set.
MMOs are not so much played by people with so little time. And then, why should a Dungeo not be for people with more time, and those who really have less time do overland stuff? Dungeons never were a daily activity anyway. It was often something you made an appointment for, for the weekend.
Some people make appointments for a disco or a movie for the weekend and other for a Dungeon run.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
If I have 1 hour to watch a TV show or whatever, I'd spend that hour running a couple of dungeons in an MMO.
That kind of logic makes sense right now and it isn't really the amount of time that's the problem.
The problem is that you need 2 hours consecutively for a dungeon like the one you want.
Ask anyone over 35 that's married and has kids about that.
20 mins to an hour here and there for 2 hours total on an evening? Doable, probably.
2 hours consecutively after work at home? ROFL! I wish!
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Hogwash.
When PnP came out we actually had chores that didn't do themselves, phones connected to the wall, meals incapable of being thrown into a microwave because there was none and I had to go to the bank to cash a check instead of using a mobile app. Technology has given people more free time than ever before.
OP is right dungeons are stupid easy and the reason is "lazy hurry up and get done" players are what today's MMO's are marketed to. Twich will often have listed between 5 thru 8 in total viewers PnP tabletop D&D.
My bucket list is a proper dungeon grind MMO.
The problem is not that you have only 1 hour, the problem is that you feel entitled to have the same in that 1 hour than someone else who wants to invest 5-6 hours.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Amen OP. It's funny where this site general opinion has gone in just a couple years. I hear apologist after apologist for making MMO's streamlined, simple with no risk and ultimately no reward. Most of it is ignorance as they are younger gamers that don't know what a true reward would feel like. This is not a subject up for debate either. MMO's have become more streamlined and simple with almost no danger....and no danger equals no reward.
I understand many gamers in their 30's - 40's have children (I do as well) but that is not an excuse for wanting games in which everything is so easy and streamlined that there is no risk for failure. If I have 6 hours a week to play games I want those hours working toward something in which I can fail or I can win.
I do see the tide turning towards a more risk/reward niche for gamers. We as MMO'ers that want a harsh dangerous virtual world have been neglected since the early 2000's...but there seems to be hope in the next two years. In the meantime, all that feel like I do should give DFUW a shot as it is built on the principles of no hand holding and making a large virtual world.
EQ still exists does it not? That example dungeon is from EQ. The solution is to play EQ. In reality, people like the thread starter just want to complain.
The actual truth is unlike some posters here I played EQ. Dungeons were long a maze like but just had tank and spank monsters. You didn't even bother 'crawling' into the dungeon you could just camp one spot and wait for the occasion rare spawn. It was just a time sink and not particularly special.
WoW introduced dungeons with bosses that had fun mechanics and even games like GW2 have bosses with far more interesting gameplay. But don't let me stop you - go ahead and long to camp in some corner of a dungeon thinking its 'great fun.' Because its not like you are actually playing that dungeon - even though you COULD.
Name one single MMO that caters to this 'entitlement'.
This is just hyperbole nonsense and really weakens your argument.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I do not understand that mentality at all. I always LOVED exploring huge ass dungeons "because they were there". I wanted to know, hey look whats inside that room? Is there a hidden room? Some mystery? Just standing in one room and camp the respawn is the very epitome of how NOT to play a game.
What about the excitement of exploration? Seeing new turns and twists? Does all this mean nothing to you?
So you seriously just stood in one room doing the same mobs over and over?
Wow.
Matthew 7:6
All I can politely say.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I would bet the majority of people play less than 5-10 hours per week. It is a minority of the population that plays more than that.
Devs are realizing that there is more money to be made by catering to people that will
a. Pay for the game
b. Do not use as many resources of the game
c. Do not play through the content as fast, thus do not demand new content as fast.
d. Do not come to forums and whine.
The casual market meets all points. They are a devs wet dream.
Saying simple dungeons are ok now due to better mob mechanics is laughable. Of course these early complex dungeons would be better if the mob mechanics where better. OP is talking about dungeon design and risk vs reward. By the way rare spawns were better than guaranteed rewards...imo.
Also imagine a dungeon where you could "camp" a spot and it was worth it in these later streamlined MMO's. Now you just rush through "trash" which drops a boring ass universal loot table drop to get to the "boss". Before we had multiple reasons to be in a complex dungeon. I could farm this rare mob or that rare mob or even go to the boss if I needed the loot and had the people. It was like an entire new school dungeon just to get to these rare camp spots that were not even a boss.
Overall, I just see an increasing ignorance towards true risk and reward on this site. Do you all not understand how much sweeter victory is when there is something on the line?
I just do not believe a large audience which plays MMOs very casual exists. If a new MMO releases, always most people consume content MUCH faster than devs assumed. But, we must leave that to believe. You believe one, I the other.
HOWEVER: Why not make complex big ass dungeons for those who HAVE the time, and leave the overland quests for the rest? So casuals would have the surface world, and dedicated MMO gamers would have their complex dungeons. Everyone happy, no?
But no. It is, again, entitlement. People today feel entitled that everything is given to them and GOD forbid there is content they can not do! So everything is cut down to managable portions for the lowest common denominator?
Sorry, but exactly THAT is what brought games down. People who have SO little time they cant even do a dungeon run and still can not live without seeing all parts of a MMO - with all due respect - should seek another hobby! You wouldn't demand to do sailing if you were always getting seasick. But you lack the time to play a MMO thoroughly but demand to be able to see it all? It makes simply no sense.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This.
Take Nektulous Forest. It was such a damn badass dangerous forest. It took me MONTHS to make it through, but when I finally managed to get through, I felt like the king of the world!
Same with epic old school singleplayer dungeons. When I beat Stonekeep or Ultima Underworld, I REMEMBER this epicness after years. While today - yawn another dungeon done. Another spooky forest done... yawn. There is no excitement! It means nothing to me anymore, because I didn't accomplish anything! How can people not see that this would be way more fun than this super easy all handed to you on a platter you just forget 5 min later?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
That's fine I do believe it exists.
I don't believe that the majority of people consume the content much faster. I believe some consume it faster, others just get bored.
Making complex big ass dungeons takes time and money. I have to assume the devs believe a majority of people will hardly use it, so why build it?
I don't think entitlement has anything to do with dungeons at all. The devs are making the game that a particular group of players are looking for. That's it. The devs have made the offer, we have decided to accept it. There is no entitlement there.
The devs are free to make whatever game they want.
If a dev doesn't offer a game I want, I will play another. They are offering a game I want so they get my money. If I lack the time to play a game, I will play a game that caters to my playstyle, which happen to be MMO's.
Nothing to do with entitlement. We aren't demanding anything. We are not chasing the devs.
The devs are chasing us.
edit - and the games have not been brought down, you just don't happen to like them.
A great many people do like them. IMO they are just as good, or better than the old ones.
SPOT ON !!!
This is something that bugs me about modern MMORPGs. Even if the argument about casual players is true (little time to play), I don't see a reason why developers can't make 3-4 LARGE dungeons for the remaining crowd.
I think the cause is obvious. Gaming in general has been expanding its playerbase. Games aren't as niche as they once were. What does this mean? You have to appease the casual gamer. You have to water things down. It's the same reason we have the decline of single player games. Look at how much the Bioshock series has been simplified. Or Resident Evil.
Gone are the days of the typical gamer being the kid who is white knuckling his way through his favorite game until 4 in the morning.
Dungeons should be sprawling architectures rioe for exploration. Not one-way streets.
Basically it show that we are in age when games (MMORPGs) cost millions to make and it will be soon search the need of billion fund.
More fund you need , smaller dungeon you get.
Pen and paper dungeon need few $ for papers and pen
1990s game need thousands $
2004+ game need millions $
What we need right now is a way to reduced the cost of making games , (mostly graphic)
or else we will get one cell dungeon soon .
lol.
Maybe 5-7 years ago I started a thread basically saying things were coming to a crunch.
People were asking for more and more and more and if they were not delivered people were whining all over the forums and a games reputation would suffer.
To accommodate that games started costing more and more and more to make, yet didn't increase the cost to the player.
I said it was going to come to a head, the $15 sub would not be enough to cover the costs of making the games or the reasonable subscribers a game could create.
I said either a game would need to find a way to make more money, or players would need to scale back their wishes.
This is what happened. Devs found a way to make more money, and at the same time focus on a group that really didn't care about big huge complex things, that were only looking for a diversion.
Best of both worlds?
Worst of both worlds?
I guess it depends what group you happen to be in.
^ so you mean we can get things we want if we pay $100 to thousands monthly ?
Seem pretty logic here .
As much as I agree to some extent to the OPs view here, I think there is more to it - as pointed out eg the money-heavy-audience being at a stage in life with little time.
The other aspect was design due to constrictions. Hardware and graphics didn't allow for complex open world environments like today. Dungeons were easier. Think of games like Doom, Dungeon Master, etc. Even Ultima Underworld which wasn't tile/step based was - underground. Also, though many will disagree, in the "old" EQ days of MMOs, it had to do with time-sinks.
Now, instead of one large dungeon, you have 5 small. Gives a faster sense of achievement. Heck, even in Skyrim, it is more satisfying to run a small cave and save when done, than to do one large and save 5 times/return 5 times to finish. That's how our modern-short-attention-span-society works. I do hate no matter what though when people rush through a dungeon and one can't even "look around". Why do devs bother making "nice/cool" dungeons in that case?
Myself I am split - on the one hand I like the old-school better because it felt more epic (even with time-sink mechanism), but from a lack of time perspective...
As a final note on time - playing EVE online atm and guess what many people do there - semi-afk mining (time-sink, anyone?) while doing house-hold chores or watching tv....
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Youtube newb:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC96N3cxBuqKTPV2BQNlzGUw
I think it is a matter of motivation. In MMO's there is one reason to do dungeons, its to get loot. And you have to run them over and over and over again so everyone can collect all the loot they need which, in the devs eyes, should take the majority about as long as it takes for them to crank out a whole new hamster wheel to get folks to jump onto.
Single player games and old PNP games were about adventure, there were morality plays and, most importantly, they aren't massively multiplayer. If you want lots of people keep it shallow, keep it light, and keep it moving. The mob is not intelligent, unlike the individual or the small group. In old games we and our friends were the champions. In an mmo you're a noob if you aren't savior of the whatever generic bullshoot the random generator spit out at the dev.
Hell, I remember campaigns where we conquered gods without ever casting a spell or unsheathing a weapon, it'll be a cold day in heck before an mmo dev lets you beat a raid boss with a riddle.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012