Open World PvP, I used to be all for it, but now I find myself disliking it more than anything. I would prefer an option, Open PvP servers and non. For me, the fun in PvP is gone. I loved it when I was younger, now-a-days the fun factor has left the building. I would rather see a great storyline and challenging PvE unlike a good portion of MMOs these days. If they forced the Open PvP on all the servers, I would immediately lose interest in the game.
Call me carebear all you want, but to each their own. I find PvP less engaging than a good story and PvE with a good AI to back it up.
Heck I would be happy with Everquest 1 in the Cry3 engine.
lol, look at EVE's current online players, now look at SOE, do you really expect SOE to live with a lowly 70K ish online player base? They'll most likely shut the game down within a few months if that were to happen. Open World PvP with questing and raids is the perfect recipe for a disaster. And EVE-Online might look beautiful and all, but for a 10+ year old MMO, it has a lousy number of active accounts and keep in mind close to half the player base multi clients. So yeah, EVE used to be good, but with Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen and Novus Aeterno coming our way, EVE-Online will just silently die off.
Sad thing about CCP, is that Dust 514 and EVE Valkyrie were promises made by CCP for future expansions on EVE-Online. Just sad that they had to do 3 different games instead of incorporating everything in to EVE, it would of made a lot of people P2P EVE-Online. Oh well, maybe someday 20-30 years from now we'll have a thread "what if...?" , CCP were light years ahead of the competition, but not anymore.
lol, look at EVE's current online players, now look at SOE, do you really expect SOE to live with a lowly 70K ish online player base? They'll most likely shut the game down within a few months if that were to happen. Open World PvP with questing and raids is the perfect recipe for a disaster. And EVE-Online might look beautiful and all, but for a 10+ year old MMO, it has a lousy number of active accounts and keep in mind close to half the player base multi clients. So yeah, EVE used to be good, but with Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen and Novus Aeterno coming our way, EVE-Online will just silently die off.
Sad thing about CCP, is that Dust 514 and EVE Valkyrie were promises made by CCP for future expansions on EVE-Online. Just sad that they had to do 3 different games instead of incorporating everything in to EVE, it would of made a lot of people P2P EVE-Online. Oh well, maybe someday 20-30 years from now we'll have a thread "what if...?" , CCP were light years ahead of the competition, but not anymore.
I like how you start out with lol, and then state that EVE has only 70k active players.
EVE has over 500k and is currently the second largest subscription based mmo, in the west, after WoW.
it also happens to be the ONLY subscription based mmo that continues to grow its subscriber base.
Dust and Valkyrie were never promised as eve expansions. They were always intended as separate games, and only dust was deigned to tie into EVE. CCP was just talking about looking into ways to tie Valkyrie into eve at fan feet, but haven't promised anything.
Thats some seriously blatant lying you did there man.
sandbox pve games dont make any sense - at least not until we have a much better developped ai...
and there are MORE than enough themepark pve mmo's that have all the bells and whistles you could be looking for - gameplay for YEARS...
its time for some player driven sand box games, and player driven means player ruling, player politics, player wars
Simple facts are that in the West, if you want any substantial numbers to try your game, you need to limit the PVP options to where the PVE crowd will dabble in it, but not feel like they have to look over their shoulders all the time.
All the catch phrases like risk -vs- reward just tell the PVE crowd that this is another game to skip. Player ruled? Ya right, you mean you get to gank whoever you want whenever you want, not gonna happen in any popular game.
Cry me a river you bears you say? Well the dev;s say give me your cash bears. And Bear cash seems to be winning dont you think?
Time will tell, but i can not see the folks putting up the cash for these games to be made, going that far out on a limb in the West. Limited PVP draws majority of the PVE crowd as well as some of the PVP crowd.
Just do not see that changing in any drastic way, no matter what type game, be it "Sandbox or Theme"
sandbox pve games dont make any sense - at least not until we have a much better developped ai...
and there are MORE than enough themepark pve mmo's that have all the bells and whistles you could be looking for - gameplay for YEARS...
its time for some player driven sand box games, and player driven means player ruling, player politics, player wars
Your quite right, there are absolutely bucket loads of themepark MMO's catering to PvE players, while PvP games are few and far between.
So the question is "Why are there so few PVP games to choose from?" and why are games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall so poorly populated if they are already offering PVP players what they want ie full loot OW PVP action.
I remember how these forums where ablaze before Darkfall and Mortal went live, how these games where the answer to hardcore PVP players prayers.
I'm a PvE player at heart, yet I absolutely love taking part in OW PVP when it's been done right and done well, where I'm not going to be the main course at a gank fest, but be involved in tactical warfare with a real fighting chance at being able to defeat my opponent through skill, not at how much higher in lvl I am to them.
I've watched my grown son of 22 play WoW on a PvP server, seen him take his max lvl hunter and gank at many lowbies as possible, the whole time laughing like a mad man, I usually switch my router off when he tries to make a run for it when they bring their mains on, and it's my turn to have a laugh when he logs back into a corpse and is corpse camped. This to me is your typical PvP player, pick on the weak, and run like hell when you have a chance at facing an opponent of equal measure.
So while the PvP players complain about the lack of PvP MMO's out there, can you really blame developers for not wanting to actually make any, when the few PvP MMO's available are home to tumbleweeds and crickets, how could you possibly make any money from an empty game.
So while the PvP players complain about the lack of PvP MMO's out there, can you really blame developers for not wanting to actually make any, when the few PvP MMO's available are home to tumbleweeds and crickets, how could you possibly make any money from an empty game.
What I blame developers for:
- Being lazy and unimaginative, as by now systems should have been invented that allow PvE and open world PvP to coexist, e.g. gold bounties on players, justice/jail, perma death for people who gank, etc. - and this is just crap I made up in 30 seconds, sitting here, but I'm sure a dude whose f'ing job it is to develop MMO mechanics could be a little bit more f'ing inventive.
There are a number of alternatives between "Hardcore PvP" and "no PvP". I think it's time game companies explore those alternatives, with intelligent rules that do not leave anyone behind (and where the equation risk vs reward is real).
- Thinking that PvP is one player kills another player in combat. There are a lot of possibilities for PvP (political system, building system, assassination contracts, stealing from other players, etc.) or competitions, rankings, etc.
No instead, they give us the usual poorly implemented crappy button mashing PvP (it's fun for a while though). I'm sure more types of PvP -less about reflex and button mashing - would attract a variety PvE players.
- Developing the same mechanics again and again instead of doing the above. Namely developing the usual: instanced PvP, different rules on different servers, idiotic system that does not punish gankers, levels that make essentially a high level player unkillable by a lowbie, etc.
Come one dudes!!! Is it not obvious what's going to happen? Can't you just look at the countless number of games you are trying to emulate and what happened here? Making for more crappy games and more complaints from PvE players, and making the situation worse.
Proof? This thread. Nobody thinks outside the box and PvE players just feel that "PvP" (whatever that means in their limited little brains) will never be for them. And I don't blame them, few game companies have showed the way so far...
The low populations of games like MO and DF have nothing to do with the pvp, and everything to do with the quality of the game.
Quality AAA games aren't made by gamers, they're made by lawyers and businessmen who care more about maximizing profit then they do about providing games people would play. That's why EVE is the only good sandbox on the market, and also why CCP won't push the game itself beyond what it is, the board of investors isn't willing to take a chance. CCP would rather gamble on a new game that utilizes an already proven formula (fps set up like cod. Dust and Valkyrie both) then actually expand on EVE itself with things like atmospheric flight and walking in stations.
And the last time I checked, almost every theme park has gone free to play, or shut down. Theme parks are easier to monetize, they already followed a DLC like format with the need to constantly push out more content.
Most of the theme parks, under a subscription model, usually had fewer subscribers than EVE.
Lineage 2 on the other hand is the only mmo that ever saw WoW like numbers. Something around the order of 12 million people played that game at one point.
And the last time I checked, almost every theme park has gone free to play, or shut down.
When was that, 2003?
You really have your head shoved very far up somewhere if you actually think that is true. And even if some games have done F2P, do you really think it is because they will make MORE money or less by doing so? I made it easier for you to answer correctly).
Seriously, the reason full loot, open world, gank infested games are not successful is because they are full loot, open world, gank infested games. It isn't any deeper then that.
- Being lazy and unimaginative, as by now systems should have been invented that allow PvE and open world PvP to coexist, e.g. gold bounties on players, justice/jail, perma death for people who gank, etc. - and this is just crap I made up in 30 seconds, sitting here, but I'm sure a dude whose f'ing job it is to develop MMO mechanics could be a little bit more f'ing inventive.
There are ways to allow PVE and OW PVP to coexist. It is either through servers with different rule sets (exist beyond each other) and or an Opt-In PVP system (coexist). Make the game have a strong focus on PVP or just player conflict in general and reward players for taking part in the total experience, without punishing those that choose to refrain from it.
A game that has OW PVP is not welcoming to PVE players. Regardless if their is a alignment, jail, bounties, etc. PVE players simply do not want to play a game where they can have someone else take away from their game play. Either a game caters to only one side or both. OW PVP caters to only one, no matter what rules are slapped on top or how it is spun.
There are a number of alternatives between "Hardcore PvP" and "no PvP". I think it's time game companies explore those alternatives, with intelligent rules that do not leave anyone behind (and where the equation risk vs reward is real).
I think this i where different servers and opt-in come into play. Mix it up, but still allow players to enjoy their preferred style of play without having other things "forced" upon them if they want to play the game. SWG is considered one of the best sandboxish games ever and it's Opt-In system was pretty dang good.
- Thinking that PvP is one player kills another player in combat. There are a lot of possibilities for PvP (political system, building system, assassination contracts, stealing from other players, etc.) or competitions, rankings, etc.
Very true, yet most games that have any sort of OW system usually turn into gank fests with zergs rolling over each other. Path of least resistance. EVE has a decent amount of depth to it beyond simply PEW PEW, but I think a huge amount of this is due to only having one "server". You can't escape from others or yourself. Whatever you do follows you unless you wipe the slate clean and start over. This can't really happen with games that have lots of servers. This also doesn't really work in a game with lore/story arch and dev created elements. Which EQN will have (this is an EQN forum).
No instead, they give us the usual poorly implemented crappy button mashing PvP (it's fun for a while though). I'm sure more types of PvP -less about reflex and button mashing - would attract a variety PvE players.
I disagree, PVE players by definition do not want to PVP. Most complaints I see are that they simply want to do X which doesn't revolve around PVP. It doesn't have to do with it being too twichy or whatever. They want to craft or kill mobs or quest or whatever. They want to go about their adventure without some random person jumping out of the shadows and killing them at half health. Making combat "easier" or rely on some other mechanic won't convert the masses.
- Developing the same mechanics again and again instead of doing the above. Namely developing the usual: instanced PvP, different rules on different servers, idiotic system that does not punish gankers, levels that make essentially a high level player unkillable by a lowbie, etc.
Hopefully EQN goes about it a bit different, but we'll see. Without a traditional vertical level system, we shouldn't see lvl 100 people that are a million times stronger then a lvl 1. It would be interesting to see them have a punishment system (just read about an Archeage player being sentenced to 13 game hours in jail), but I still think this turns off a decent chunk of players. If they have to die first to get these gankers in jail, it still is not enjoyable.
Come one dudes!!! Is it not obvious what's going to happen? Can't you just look at the countless number of games you are trying to emulate and what happened here? Making for more crappy games and more complaints from PvE players, and making the situation worse.
If you are talking about SOE, not sure what games they are trying to emulate with EQN. But you may be referring to the genre in general.
Proof? This thread. Nobody thinks outside the box and PvE players just feel that "PvP" (whatever that means in their limited little brains) will never be for them. And I don't blame them, few game companies have showed the way so far...
This is just a personal choice and has nothing to do with "limited little brains." You aren't special because you like PVP. Doesn't make you any better or worse then someone that doesn't like it. Everyone wants a game tailored to them and that really isn't realistic. Companies have to go after either the largest market they can or accept they will never be anything more then niche. Accept that regardless of how much systems are in place, some people do not want to PVP.
That's why I really hope EQN has a strong player conflict element, but allows players to opt-in to it. The rewards for participating should be tempting even for those that dislike it, even to just dip their toes in the battle, but not so rewarding that PVP is basically required to enjoy the game fully.
I'm a PVPer, but would rather play a good PVE game then a crappy PVP one. I hope EQN gets it right, but it is yet to be seen what they have up their sleeves. To get it right, they will have to think out the box as you say, but even then, there are so many ways to do it wrong or for players to take what is available and take the fun out of it.
sandbox pve games dont make any sense - at least not until we have a much better developped ai...
and there are MORE than enough themepark pve mmo's that have all the bells and whistles you could be looking for - gameplay for YEARS...
its time for some player driven sand box games, and player driven means player ruling, player politics, player wars
I believe that is the entire point to Storybricks and emergent AI. If it is what they say, it should bring a new level of challenge and life to PVE that hasn't been done before. While it might not replace the full thrill of PVP, it could bring it pretty close.
Player driven doesn't work in a fantasy mmorpg with multiple servers. If players can pack up and move servers or just reroll on another, players will never get the same buy in that they have in games like EVE with one "server."
PVE, PVP, Themepark, Sandbox = buzzwords. They have no one definition or way to do it.
H1Z1 looks to be a player driven sandbox and so far looks to be just like every other OW PVP game (DF, MO, DayZ) a complete mindless FPS. Just because you provide the tools to the players (politics, resources, economy, territory control, etc) doesn't mean players will embrace it and not simply go out and kill one another.
The reason there hasn't be a real successful fantasy mmorpg with OW FFA PVP is because players/people are jerks when they get behind a screen. Freedom is too much for a good chunk of gamers. It would be amazing to have a real "virtual world" with realistic elements, but the truth is, most people will simply just turn it into a kill fest by outnumbering or outgunning others. Rarely do players actually want to use cunning, strategy, actual brain power when it comes to conflict.
We have yet to see how EQN will tackle PVP, but I'm hoping for either Opt-In with a game that rewards those that embrace conflict without punishing those that don't. If you want to farm all day, great. If you want to farm on the weekdays and battle for land on the weekends, even better.
OPEN WORLD PVP is the only thing which makes sense anymore as the MMORPG environment has changed and evolved
Players have evolved to the point where PvE isn't as interesting nor as challenging as it used to be (Some of us have have felt this way for much longer then others, as it is neither good nor bad, it is what it is)
BOTs now plague many MMORPGs and the only way to keep them in check is open world pvp where everyone can be contended and everything is contested. No game developer nor game admin can seem to tackle this problem effectively enough. Personally I say, "BRING ON THE BOTS!"; Its time for all of us to evolve
Artificial Intelligence in Everquest Next sounds as if it is going to quite refreshing as we all have been waiting for adaptable, learning AI for as long as we've been playing games.
Participated in Monster Play in Lord of the Rings Online; I consider this to be the future of MMORPGs alongside player controlled minions with flowchart instructional AI and some with adaptable, learning AI
Best way for open world pvp to be successful, exciting, adventurous and fun for everyone involved is for players to police themselves so to speak. Have bounties on players who murder, steal, etc... This rids the game of griefers as players can deal with problem players however they see fit and there is an incentive to encourage players to seek out justice and it also makes being the bad guy much more exciting and challenging and suspenseful.
Will be back to add more later as I am heading out to see my MOM today as its Mothers Days ya'll Feel free to reply and lets make this discussion much more interesting and insightful
I realize how excited you are that you feel that SoE will in way clone Eve's pvp style and philosophy because Smed enjoys it so much. However, take in consideration that many of us do not play Eve. Yep, Eve stands at this writing the most popular and longest lasting space mmo. However, the numbers do not support that the over 20 million or more mmo gamers out there necessarily agree with Master Smedley or, for that matter, even know what Eve is. Simply put, how many actually log on every evening to go through what one must to endure the style in Eve?
I, for one, do NOT want to play another Eve. I do NOT want to play another WoW either. Thus, I am fairly sure that the next successful mmo will not play exactly like either Eve or WoW, to name those two for this example. H1Z1 is fine. It will have pvp and that's good for that genre. Do you actually take Master Smed at his word? What is his track record for accuracy in the past 15 years at SoE? I have taken it from this forum as well as some others that he often speaks a bit "out of turn" as he gets super excited and somewhat opinionated about his play-style.
At any rate, sir, well written thread. I do not agree, but that is what makes the spice of life, is it not?
Keep on rockin' the free world!
Alyn ... /salutes
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
OPEN WORLD PVP is the only thing which makes sense anymore as the MMORPG environment has changed and evolved
It is a good solution for a game that is all about PVP. See Camelot Unchained, WAR 40k. If there is more to the game then senseless killing, there will people that want to do that instead of fighting one another. EQN so far isn't a PVP game. Even games that have OW PVP can't maintain it very long (DAoC) because it just doesn't work without a lot of rules and things that go against the point of OW PVP.
Players have evolved to the point where PvE isn't as interesting nor as challenging as it used to be (Some of us have have felt this way for much longer then others, as it is neither good nor bad, it is what it is)
The millions of PVE only or consensual PVP players would probably disagree with you. As they seem to make up the majority, I can't agree.
BOTs now plague many MMORPGs and the only way to keep them in check is open world pvp where everyone can be contended and everything is contested. No game developer nor game admin can seem to tackle this problem effectively enough. Personally I say, "BRING ON THE BOTS!"; Its time for all of us to evolve
OW PVP is just a bandaid, not a solution to cheats. Would be a big help for sure, but wouldn't stop them. If you know anything about how these organizations run, you and I running around killing them isn't going to make a difference unless every single player does it 24/7. Oh and don't forget every single player deciding to not buy from them (Bots only exist because we the players want what they are offering).
Artificial Intelligence in Everquest Next sounds as if it is going to quite refreshing as we all have been waiting for adaptable, learning AI for as long as we've been playing games.
Participated in Monster Play in Lord of the Rings Online; I consider this to be the future of MMORPGs alongside player controlled minions with flowchart instructional AI and some with adaptable, learning AI
Best way for open world pvp to be successful, exciting, adventurous and fun for everyone involved is for players to police themselves so to speak. Have bounties on players who murder, steal, etc... This rids the game of griefers as players can deal with problem players however they see fit and there is an incentive to encourage players to seek out justice and it also makes being the bad guy much more exciting and challenging and suspenseful.
Would be great if these systems work, but so far, they still alienate those that do not want to participate at all. If I want to just PVE without the hassle of others screwing with me, I don't care if I can put a bounty on the guy that has been killing me over and over for the last day. Again, it is more of a hopeful bandaid then a solution. What happens when the griefers outnumber the griefed?
Will be back to add more later as I am heading out to see my MOM today as its Mothers Days ya'll Feel free to reply and lets make this discussion much more interesting and insightful
I'm a PVPer and am all for a game that tries to break the mold and attempts to bring more depth to mmos. So far, no game has done that while focusing on OW PVP. While I hope EQN has some good PVP elements, I highly doubt it will be the focus. The market and money just isn't there. H1Z1 is a good example of a OW PVP game that won't appeal to the masses. Why? Because regardless of what they throw on top, it will still boil down to a KOS fest.
I'm really hoping the AI they are hyping actually makes PVE and the world exciting for once. If they can toss in some player conflict (economy, resources, land control, etc) that will be icing. Simply allowing us to kill one another for no reason is not the solution. I'll stick to FPS/MOBAs if I just want to PEW PEW everyone I see. Would rather have no PVP then have it in instanced battlegrounds as well. So while my hopes are high for EQN, I'm not holding my breath in the PVP department.
Sometimes I long to go back to the days of early Everquest when the great majority of players were n00bs; therefore the learning curve demanded more of a cooperative effort which fostered the community (essential in any MMORPG) as leveling was hard as death penalties surely contributed and grouping/raiding was necessary as the MOBs were very formidable and the best gear was ofiten obtained through the most challenging cooperative effort.
Times have changed and so have the players. We have all been exposed to many different facets of gameplay in this genre. Life has also changed for us all as has the world we are a part of. We have another generation of gamers added to the mix and more to come.
N00bs are very uncommon and loosely regarded. Competition and Recognition has turned MMORPGs into a sham as there is no real sense of community as everyone seems to be in it for themselves and their overall experience. Also, people are simply too busy, preoccupied, distracted, overwhelmed, overworked, dumbed down, sick and tired to really take the time to truly immerse themselves into an MMORPG as we were able to years ago. PvE and technological barriers go hand in hand so therefore PvP became one of the few viable and reasonable options for developers as gamers grew weary of the same ol predictible AI as well as ridiculously programmed raid content.
Everquest Next development team has mentioned MOB AI is going to be much more formidable as it learns, and adapts and even cooperates with players and other MOB types in regards to their intelligence and the survival of their kind. This however will not suffice as we have witnessed in many an MMORPG that players always seem to find a way to undermine game mechanics and AI programming. Ultimately it comes down to a world of constant contention where everything is contested and everyone must choose their allies, adversaries, battles, and diplomacy wisely.
BOTs and Gold Spammers have become a plague to any MMORPG. They not only ruin any chance for a player driven economy. They contest every worthwhile MOB and quest. They contest every resource and every optimal avenue for gear and gold. The only way to eradicate this plague is to meet it head on, through open world PvP. This forces the gold farming company to organize and therein put themselves into a position where they are reckoned with. Often I have wondered why developers and game designers continue to release MMORPGs that cater to gold farming companies and their ilk. Unless the gold farming companies have infiltrated game design to such a degree that they are way ahead of the game, so to speak and/or the development team, game designers and investors somehow profit and benefit from their continuous and incessant charade.
Community is ultimately where a MMORPG succeeds or fails; In order to successfully establish a thriving and evolved community in a MMORPG you have to encourage players to fully engage themselves to the point where they are not only put in a position to interact and work with other players and MOBs, they feel compelled to do so, in order for them and their allies to prevail against the overwhelming odds as everyone and everything is in constant contention. Player driven economy must be allowed to flourish as in any open market that serves the needs and desires of a community. Resources will always be widely available and contested by players and MOBs as they help them to not only sustain their communities, they are necessary for crafting, diplomacy through trade and expansion of their community.
How do you prevent empire building where one faction triumphs and becomes imbalanced so as to wipe out other factions, so to speak. You allow players to sustain factions comprised of MOBs and players. The only way to allow this is to have open world PvP where factions can see fit to make policy and police it however they see fit. Allow players to handle dissension, diplomacy, war, strive, conflict, exploration, expansion, etc... You mentioned griefers unbalancing the game as they would manipulate and undermine the game mechanics and MOB AI so as to gain advantage which would put them directly in contention (if they were organized and recognizable), unless they were seemingly random and scattered yet somehow collectively an underlying nuisance to overall gameplay for players on their particular server. Well this wouldn't happen in a game where everything and everyone was in contention as even MOBs chose their allies and adversaries in an environment where factions played an important role as factions was one of the greatest achievements of original Everquest to this day. Factions is how you handle constant strife. Even the yin/yang symbol represents the balance and harmony of the duality that comprises all things, as even in light there is dark and in dark there is light. You cannot have one without the other...
Developers are going to have to WAKE UP players for players to engage and immerse themselves into an MMORPG. The only way to do this is REVOLUTIONARY game mechanics and design borrowed, optimized, and enhanced from previous MMORPGs in this genre. Open world PvP thrives and proliferates within a faction system, where your faction is directly affected by your actions in game (i.e. attacking and/or killing certain factions (including your faction)).
Sometimes I long to go back to the days of early Everquest when the great majority of players were n00bs; therefore the learning curve demanded more of a cooperative effort which fostered the community (essential in any MMORPG) as leveling was hard as death penalties surely contributed and grouping/raiding was necessary as the MOBs were very formidable and the best gear was ofiten obtained through the most challenging cooperative effort.
Doubt many would disagree. While I might not want the exact same experience, I do long for those "woah" moments when experiencing something in gaming for the first time.
Times have changed and so have the players. We have all been exposed to many different facets of gameplay in this genre. Life has also changed for us all as has the world we are a part of. We have another generation of gamers added to the mix and more to come.
N00bs are very uncommon and loosely regarded. Competition and Recognition has turned MMORPGs into a sham as there is no real sense of community as everyone seems to be in it for themselves and their overall experience. Also, people are simply too busy, preoccupied, distracted, overwhelmed, overworked, dumbed down, sick and tired to really take the time to truly immerse themselves into an MMORPG as we were able to years ago. PvE and technological barriers go hand in hand so therefore PvP became one of the few viable and reasonable options for developers as gamers grew weary of the same ol predictible AI as well as ridiculously programmed raid content.
As shown with the millions that still play WoW and similar games, there are still quite a few that aren't tired of the poor AI and actually embrace it. You and I might not, but seems others are fine with it. Then again sometimes people need to be given a different/better option to realize what they want.
Everquest Next development team has mentioned MOB AI is going to be much more formidable as it learns, and adapts and even cooperates with players and other MOB types in regards to their intelligence and the survival of their kind. This however will not suffice as we have witnessed in many an MMORPG that players always seem to find a way to undermine game mechanics and AI programming. Ultimately it comes down to a world of constant contention where everything is contested and everyone must choose their allies, adversaries, battles, and diplomacy wisely.
If players decide to "game" the system, that's on them. There are still plenty that want to play as intended. From the days of UO/EQ and beyond, there have and always will be players/groups that try to work the system and get around it without playing as intended. I think they are cheating themselves and others in the process. We've yet to see any of the "emergent AI" but I'm willing to give them a chance before deciding anything.
BOTs and Gold Spammers have become a plague to any MMORPG. They not only ruin any chance for a player driven economy. They contest every worthwhile MOB and quest. They contest every resource and every optimal avenue for gear and gold. The only way to eradicate this plague is to meet it head on, through open world PvP. This forces the gold farming company to organize and therein put themselves into a position where they are reckoned with. Often I have wondered why developers and game designers continue to release MMORPGs that cater to gold farming companies and their ilk. Unless the gold farming companies have infiltrated game design to such a degree that they are way ahead of the game, so to speak and/or the development team, game designers and investors somehow profit and benefit from their continuous and incessant charade.
BOTs exist because players buy what they offer. No other reason. They aren't doing it just for the heck of it. That on top of poor design (ESO is a very good example with gold sellers already pumping it out during the early release) is the problem. I'm really hoping that EQN's dynamic/procedurally generated world adds a bit of challenge to them. If there isn't static spawns or world in general, this adds another layer of difficulty for them.
It is also dependent on SOE's anti-cheat system which seems to be okay in their other games and hopefully get better. I used to kill every obvious BOT/Gold Farmer I could see in WoW (one of the first games they became a issue) and it made no difference. I'd kill them, go on, come back and they'd be right there again. Might sound good in theory, but account/IP bans are > a rag tag team of PVPers cleaning up a companies issues.
Community is ultimately where a MMORPG succeeds or fails; In order to successfully establish a thriving and evolved community in a MMORPG you have to encourage players to fully engage themselves to the point where they are not only put in a position to interact and work with other players and MOBs, they feel compelled to do so, in order for them and their allies to prevail against the overwhelming odds as everyone and everything is in constant contention. Player driven economy must be allowed to flourish as in any open market that serves the needs and desires of a community. Resources will always be widely available and contested by players and MOBs as they help them to not only sustain their communities, they are necessary for crafting, diplomacy through trade and expansion of their community.
How do you prevent empire building where one faction triumphs and becomes imbalanced so as to wipe out other factions, so to speak. You allow players to sustain factions comprised of MOBs and players. The only way to allow this is to have open world PvP where factions can see fit to make policy and police it however they see fit. Allow players to handle dissension, diplomacy, war, strive, conflict, exploration, expansion, etc...
This sounds good in theory, but in reality, most games with OW PVP = KOS fest or zerg fighting or some other crappy style which has little to do with actual strategy and thought. I think EVE is probably one of the few games that comes close and it isn't full OW PVP without restrictions and it also has one "server" making it unique. This isn't possible nor planned for EQN. Kind of a planets aligning deal, if one planet is out of whack, it doesn't work. Factions have there place, but I don't see how they fit into EQN, yet. What would be their point beyond playing a huge game a king of the hill or tag like most games do? Went from territory control (DAoC style) to flat out scoreboards (GW2). Still the same basic concept of who has the most numbers/organization. Which is fun, but can get very boring as well.
You mentioned griefers unbalancing the game as they would manipulate and undermine the game mechanics and MOB AI so as to gain advantage which would put them directly in contention (if they were organized and recognizable), unless they were seemingly random and scattered yet somehow collectively an underlying nuisance to overall gameplay for players on their particular server. Well this wouldn't happen in a game where everything and everyone was in contention as even MOBs chose their allies and adversaries in an environment where factions played an important role as factions was one of the greatest achievements of original Everquest to this day. Factions is how you handle constant strife. Even the yin/yang symbol represents the balance and harmony of the duality that comprises all things, as even in light there is dark and in dark there is light. You cannot have one without the other...
I don't remember factions playing that large of a role beyond grinding it to have access to certain things and MOBs didn't work with players in any real fashion. Not sure how feasible that is with tech, even this "emergent AI" they are hyping. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
Developers are going to have to WAKE UP players for players to engage and immerse themselves into an MMORPG. The only way to do this is REVOLUTIONARY game mechanics and design borrowed, optimized, and enhanced from previous MMORPGs in this genre. Open world PvP thrives and proliferates within a faction system, where your faction is directly affected by your actions in game (i.e. attacking and/or killing certain factions (including your faction)).
So far, they haven't made EQN to sound as a PVP game. Factions = PVP game. While it can work if that is the plan, I doubt it is. EQ has never been about PVP. It has always been about the adventure. Could they make some huge changes to the EQverse and add in factions that work with the lore, sure, but I think they risk alienating a huge number of players that do not want OW PVP or any kind. Regardless if they might like it if they try it. If they won't even try it, the point is moot.
SOE isn't trying to make a niche game or even a break even one, they are trying to pull the genre forward and to be successful, they need to bring in the masses. Is it ideal for what you and I might want, no, but we aren't the majority either. I've accepted that.
I'm right there with you wanting something "more" then what we've seen so far. I think EQN is a step in that direction. Before we can get into OW PVP type games though, I think players need to be set free of the grasp of the themepark addiction that has become the norm. Society in general is so stuck on instant gratification and not having to work for anything, that any sort of higher brain power mmo that requires teamwork, planning, foresight, etc would either be too hard or just boring for those that are stuck in the instant port to dungeon, kill mobs mindlessly, get shiny loot, repeat mode.
If EQN (and probably Blizzard's next) can break that cycle to some degree, I think we might start seeing companies take a chance. Pathfinder Online looks very interesting but it is still just a small blip on the radar. Companies are pouring big bucks into mmos and from what I see, aren't setting the genre on fire. While I do not consider any game a failure, to say SWOTR, GW2, ESO, or WIldstar have/will be a new page in the genre history is reaching. I think what you speak of (and I would love) is still a few chapters away sadly. EQN is hopefully at least several pages skipped ahead.
Wishful thinking, but I have some faith in SOE. We'll see what they actually have planned in action at some point. But I highly doubt it will be the OW FFA PVP Sandbox that some of us are wanting. I'm fine with that as long as EQN is still a great game in of itself. Might not hit every check box on my list, but it can come close. I think being F2P really opens the doors for what they can try down the road. Without needing to pump out an expansion every 200 days, they can focus on making the core game better, which can include focusing on player conflict and other elements that have been missing from most these games.
Get acquainted with the nuances of EvE Online PvP cuz some form of it is comin to Everquest Next
Everquest brought forth a faction system that was ingenius in many ways. This faction system hasn't be utilized and implemented as it could revolutionize any MMORPG and bring something to this genre that is surely needed and only makes sense. Even in original D&D and AD&D you had alignments; Chaotic/Lawful/Neutral and Good/Neutral/Evil. Imagine the possibilities of utilizing factions and alignments in a game where MOBs possess emergent AI and the game isn't simply about strategically murdering, plundering, assassinating, raiding, etc.. MOBs as much as it is about working for, with and against MOBs alongside other players in a game where everything is contested and everyone is in a constant struggle for, with, and against each other and the environment.
In Everquest I remember players on the pvp server and the race war servers talking about grinding certain factions for strategy and survival. I initially played on Vallon Zek and as a monk I realized early on I really had no chance against casters or really much of a chance against most any class at earlier levels, especially without suitable gear. I had to either close the gap very quickly and/or train MOBs onto my opponent(s). I remember getting reported for training a bunch of Ghouls onto some darkies in the middle of the night in Northern Desert of Ro as the lighties were overwhelmed and outnumbered near Freeport. Afterwards much laughter ensued, as it was pretty hilarious to observe and very impressive how well my strategy worked in our favor. I remember saying on my behalf, "You all are darkies so I just figured you wanted to bond with your fellow brethren, Ghouls". Think I also had a mummy in tow as well. I remember playing a druid and charming animals to attack opponents while they grinded MOBs. All is fair in love and war
Core game is where this franchise is going to prevail as I am sure SOE doesn't want a repeat of what occurred with WoW vs EQ2 circa 2004. Ten years later and there are many more bold titles being developed and released in this genre by experienced and seasoned developers from previously successful MMORPGs. SOE really needs to bring it and from what I have witnessed to date they really seem to be on the right track. Everquest Next is going to have to revolutionize every facet of an MMORPG to produce something players want to experience; considering all the competition in this genre. An important facet of any MMORPG is PvP as this is an evolving genre and we are way past the glory days of old where grinding, grouping for, and raiding PvE content has been there, done that as we all got the T shirt.
Emergent AI is something many of us are really excited about and looking forward to witnessing and experiencing firsthand. However there is much skepticism amongst the MMORPG populace as we are well aware of hype and marketing machine that plays an essential role in developing, producing, and releasing a successful MMORPG. Many of us have turned into critics and I for one see this being tooled to the hilt, unless it plays an essential role in every facet of gameplay, including PvP. The only way for this to successfully work is within a faction based open world PvP dynamic.
Many of us await E3 that will be happening in less then a month. Hopefully SOE unveils alot more about Everquest Next this year. We all need to make sure we bring up the ongoing PvP debate concerning Everquest Next. Obviously it concerns a alot of people as there are many lengthy threads about it on various forums. Lets make sure this gets brought to the table for discussion and comments by developers and maybe even Ol Smedley
Get acquainted with the nuances of EvE Online PvP cuz some form of it is comin to Everquest Next
Maybe you haven't seen H1Z1? I honestly doubt Smedley plays EQ or mmorpgs in general. Whenever he talks about games he mentions FPS/MOBAs. He loves to kill people. During his AMA, he said he loves PVP and killing, not building. So far EQN doesn't come off as a PVP game mainly.
Last time I checked, he isn't on EQN's dev team and I'd hope SOE is smarter then letting one person dictate the games focus based on their personal wishes. If you've read what he has said about EVE and gaming in general, it sounds like he wants SOE games to have the player control (Sandbox) theme, not EVE + EQ = EQN. PVP is just one aspect of this, not the focus.
Everquest brought forth a faction system that was ingenius in many ways. This faction system hasn't be utilized and implemented as it could revolutionize any MMORPG and bring something to this genre that is surely needed and only makes sense. Even in original D&D and AD&D you had alignments; Chaotic/Lawful/Neutral and Good/Neutral/Evil. Imagine the possibilities of utilizing factions and alignments in a game where MOBs possess emergent AI and the game isn't simply about strategically murdering, plundering, assassinating, raiding, etc.. MOBs as much as it is about working for, with and against MOBs alongside other players in a game where everything is contested and everyone is in a constant struggle for, with, and against each other and the environment.
I personally really enjoy D&D's alignment system. Played several MUDs that used it. UO's system was sort of a simplistic take on it. I think using something like that would make a huge difference in a "sandbox" type game with players opting in to what degree of good/evil they want to be. It doesn't make either side the default or go to. Both would have pros/cons and people would have to debate what they are going to do as it will impact their future.
Playing along side MOBs sounds great, just not sure if the tech is there for a mmorpg. Single player games and what not, but on a large scale, don't know. Would be fun though.
In Everquest I remember players on the pvp server and the race war servers talking about grinding certain factions for strategy and survival. I initially played on Vallon Zek and as a monk I realized early on I really had no chance against casters or really much of a chance against most any class at earlier levels, especially without suitable gear. I had to either close the gap very quickly and/or train MOBs onto my opponent(s). I remember getting reported for training a bunch of Ghouls onto some darkies in the middle of the night in Northern Desert of Ro as the lighties were overwhelmed and outnumbered near Freeport. Afterwards much laughter ensued, as it was pretty hilarious to observe and very impressive how well my strategy worked in our favor. I remember saying on my behalf, "You all are darkies so I just figured you wanted to bond with your fellow brethren, Ghouls". Think I also had a mummy in tow as well. I remember playing a druid and charming animals to attack opponents while they grinded MOBs. All is fair in love and war
While I to played some of my EQ years on PVP servers, it never equaled what I experienced in other games (especially DAoC). Classes and the game weren't built with PVP in mind and it was very obvious. Factions did play in, on regular servers as well, but still didn't find them that rewarding. Hopefully at SOE Live they give a bit more insight into what type of game EQN will be. So far, they've talked a lot, but still haven't said much.
Will it be PVE focused with PVP servers or Opt-In on all servers, will PVP have a big focus on general game play, etc. Makes a huge difference. PVP works when a game is designed from the ground up with it. Simply allowing people to kill one another just because or because they are a different color/race/faction doesn't bring a lot of depth or meaning.
Core game is where this franchise is going to prevail as I am sure SOE doesn't want a repeat of what occurred with WoW vs EQ2 circa 2004. Ten years later and there are many more bold titles being developed and released in this genre by experienced and seasoned developers from previously successful MMORPGs. SOE really needs to bring it and from what I have witnessed to date they really seem to be on the right track. Everquest Next is going to have to revolutionize every facet of an MMORPG to produce something players want to experience; considering all the competition in this genre. An important facet of any MMORPG is PvP as this is an evolving genre and we are way past the glory days of old where grinding, grouping for, and raiding PvE content has been there, done that as we all got the T shirt.
Yep. PVP will matter in EQN, but I just hope it matters for the right reasons. I love PVP and wanted to love GW2, but at the end of the day could either run the same arenas over and over or follow the zerg in WvWvW. Still was little point to it. Not many games have differed. The games that do have some depth to PVP (EVE) are also very unique and some of the unique qualities can't be reproduced in EQN. Just because it might work in EVE or another game, doesn't not mean it will/can be reproduced in EQN. Regardless if Smed loves it or not.
Emergent AI is something many of us are really excited about and looking forward to witnessing and experiencing firsthand. However there is much skepticism amongst the MMORPG populace as we are well aware of hype and marketing machine that plays an essential role in developing, producing, and releasing a successful MMORPG. Many of us have turned into critics and I for one see this being tooled to the hilt, unless it plays an essential role in every facet of gameplay, including PvP. The only way for this to successfully work is within a faction based open world PvP dynamic.
Why is it the only way? Maybe the only way for you, but I'm sure there are plenty of people that want it plenty of different ways. I agree the AI will make or break EQN. Smed said it was the secret sauce and voxels were not the show stopper. If it turns out to be hype, I will be a sad panda and I think they will have really misled the fans. There is no reading between the lines, they've said the AI is leaps ahead of the competition and will change the genre. Can't back track down the road if it doesn't meet at least some of what we are hoping for.
Many of us await E3 that will be happening in less then a month. Hopefully SOE unveils alot more about Everquest Next this year. We all need to make sure we bring up the ongoing PvP debate concerning Everquest Next. Obviously it concerns a alot of people as there are many lengthy threads about it on various forums. Lets make sure this gets brought to the table for discussion and comments by developers and maybe even Ol Smedley
Don't get your hopes up for anything good from E3. SOE Live is where it will happen.
Really looking forward to how SOE Live turns out. Could go a couple ways. Rehash the same details (booo), barely talk about it (boooo), release a lot of new stuff (Yay!). They've said EQN is the future of SOE, if they don't reveal more details, I think they will be doing everyone a disservice. Landmark is great and all, but discussing building tools an what not can only go on for so long. By then they should have more things in place (Combat) so they will probably dive into that, but EQN is the genre changer.
I am first going to argue that, in the most general sense, removing pvp can actually increase freedom. It's called the social contract. In real life, people give up the right to kill people in exchange for the right to not be killed. Of course, in real life, this is enforced voluntarily by people rather than by hard-coded facts.
Personally (and this is sorta tangential), I envision a sandbox in which players are given tools which can be used alter the presence of pvp in areas. The specifics that I'm going to mention aren't what's important, but rather that players are given the ability to prevent/discourage pvp through means which can be contested by other players. My idea includes npc guards which can teleport (the teleport would have a cooldown) to cases of pvp in their nearby area, but the guards are neither finite, immortal, omnipresent, nor free, thus the guards would not suffice in situations with large-scale invasions or wide-scale chaos and would require player action. The guards (patrol coverage, strength, and numbers) would be associated with cities, and thus the players could prevent pvp in areas by establishing and growing their own outposts (if that is possible) or by aiding and influencing npc cities. Secondly, pvpers would negative karma for each player (and guard) they kill, and this karma would increase the death penalty. However, karma would fade over time, so if other players or guards cannot enforce anti-pvp measures, the pvper would get off just fine. This would also mean that the players who suffer more from pvp are the same ones who apparently think pvp is fine, which is something interesting to think about. The importance of this karma system is so that players can use death as a deterrence for pvp: if the penalty is equal for everyone then raising it would make griefing more effective (and rewarding) and potentially hurt everyone else while lowering it might let the pvpers shrug off the death penalty more easily.
Why are all the naysayers so apprehensive, concerned, and afraid of PvP in an MMORPG when it has been an integral part of the evolution of this genre?
Face it folks PvE isn't even remotely challenging as it once was when you got hit in the face by a median level NPC Necromancer's punch in Everquest for more damage then a max level Player Character Monk could muster for most of their unarmed attacks. This wasn't even remotely immersive, yet it was challenging :P
Players had to group in original EQ simply because even conned MOBs were as strong as optimally twinked player characters of the same level. MOBs linked up and worked better (especially in dungeons) and aggro range was carefully considered due to MOB linking and trains.
Grouping in MMORPGs these days isn't as important as it was back in the day. Constant whining from casual players has reduced MMORPGs to nothing more then hand holding and grab assed folly at best.
Oh wait lets not forget all the raiders extraordinaire who played it to the hilt in ol Everquest with their carefully strategized min/max gameplay, downing all the added content and expansion pack raid bosses; Only to grow past the game and move on to World of Warcraft where they were placed in charge of all the Raid content and all I gotta say is WoW. They managed to evolve raiding from huge ridiculous long hour raids where one person could wipe the entire raid; to raids which catered to the casual gamers and we all know where that ended up. PvP ended up becoming more center stage in WoW because PvE had been played to the hilt in the current engine and couldn't be more immersive nor challenging without totally revamping and releasing a new product.
Emergent AI? Many of us are not only highly skeptical of such a boast, we doubt they can actually bring such a dynamic to Everquest Next without it being undermined and turned into a laughable mess by players who enjoy nothing more then trivializing PvE content in each and every new title that hits the market in this genre. It's simply programmed MOBs with a set number of choices and decisions limited to the program. in otherwords, its LIMITED! We, are LIMITLESS!
The most challenging and immersive gameplay anyone will experience these days will be against other players. MOBs within their current AI limitations and restrictions (due to technological limitations) are just not going to entertain, nor prove challenging enough overtime as the game progresses. I've played many of the most notable MMORPG titles til a few years ago when I realized the genre had hit a wall, so to speak.
Not only is it a monumental task to develop a good MMORPG; it cost lots of money, time, and energy to bring it to the market; only to often end up being plagued by bugs, bots, gold farmers/spammers, latency issues, class/template imbalancing, game design issues, etc.. and so on. Players shouldn't be subjected to this sort of nonsense; They should be empowered to enforce policy in the game (hence the word POLICE) and they should be able to be free to do as they desire (cuz its a GAME folks!) and they should be encouraged and motivated to provide feedback so as to improve the game as it progresses and evolves. The only way to do this is allowing a sensible PvP dynamic so players can work together, for, and against each other and the MOBs/environment. PvP removes the game breakin issues currently plaguing many of the new MMORPGs (i.e. BOTs. farmers, spammers, griefers) by making them KOS by the playerbase enmasse.
I've mentioned factions and alignments to really factor in much moreso then it did in Everquest, so as to evolve and foster player conflict, diplomacy, trade, cooperation, and competition. Monster Play in Lord of the Rings Online really exposed me to what I consider to be the future of MMORPGs; where the players play against each other as evil vs good. This alongside the so called emergent AI dynamic could really prove to be revolutionary and game changing for this genre. DAoC showed the value of multiple alliances. Evolve this to include factions/alignments and allow players to interact with MOBs much moreso and the possibilities grow exponentially.
I could go on and on here but the gist of this thread is simply an ongoing debate concerning FFA PvP much like it is in EvE. I'm not an advocate of rampant, reckless, uncontrolled, mayhem that players have associated with FFA PvP. We should all accept PvP as an integral part of this genre as we all should accept the limitations of technology and lack of immersion which have more too often ruined what could have proved to be something much more worthwhile and adventurous by an MMORPG choosing to go the route of PvE.
Community is something I firmly believe has suffered as a result of poor game design. Without community an MMORPG turns into a multiplayer game. Community can be enhanced within the player controlled dynamic that I had previously mentioned beforehand. Allowing the players much more freedom and influence over the game provides more player involvement, exchange, communication, interaction, etc....Community has been so lacking in so many MMORPGs since the good ol days where we were not only encouraged we were basically forced to interact with each other much moreso.
People say casual players have been a plague upon this genre. Whilst I will agree to some degree; I will say it is moreso poor game design and game mechanics. I was one of the many who defined the term powergamer. Until I realized it didn't serve the greater good for one and all involved. Casual play should be the target market, yet dedicated players should be rewarded, yet not to such a degree so as to encourage powergaming and frustrate the majority of players who consist primarily of casual gamers. People gotta live productive lives, yet we are becoming more and more of a technologically driven society. It is the judicious balance of nature and technology that will ultimately prove to foster and evolve humanity into the new world.
Stop being so freakin apprehensive of the player vs player dynamic and lets come to some consensus within the realization of the fact we really need each other to move forward in this genre. The development company cannot be expected to enforce policy in their own games. It is high time the players should be empowered within appropriate game design with the right game mechanics to work together to create community involvement which will effectively address the problems currently plaguing MMORPGs at this time in this genre. The only way to do this is to allow PvP to perform the role it was always meant to; To foster peace and prosperity through conflict, diplomacy, trade, cooperation, competition, etc...so players can realize justice is ultimately served by one and all. Instead of being the harshest of critics and skeptics often bringing ruin to many MMORPGs; lets work with the developers much moreso during the development phase so the developer can realize how much moreso the player is needed to enforce and uphold policy during gameplay. PVP along with emergent AI PvE is the only way!
Read it and weep. I've been a broken record on this, but the writing on the wall says there's going to be open world PVP in a brilliantly executed system like Eve Online.
Smedley's blog post covers a lot, but here are some of the highlights:
"A lot has been made about how much we’re pushing this concept of “Sandbox” mmos being the future. Not a lot has been said about what that means."
"In my opinion the solution is focusing a lot more on letting players make and be content for each other. Battlegrounds are an excellent example of an Evergreen style of content where it’s the players themselves that actually create the content. ... Building systems into the games that let the players interact with each other in new and unique ways gives us the ability to watch as the players do stuff we never anticipated. We’ll see a lot more creativity in action if the players are at the center of it. Imagine an MMORPG of a massive city.. and the Rogue’s guild is entirely run by players. Where the city has an entire political system that is populated by players who were elected by the playerbase."
"There’s a great example of this today with Eve Online. It’s a brilliantly executed system where the players are pretty much in charge of the entire game. Sure there is a lot of content for players to do, but anything that’s important in the game is done by the players. This is a shining example of how this kind of system can thrive.
Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting."
Is anyone from the other side of the fence ready to admit this is happening?
Edit: Sorry, that was bad form. Here is the blog post:
Read it and weep. I've been a broken record on this, but the writing on the wall says there's going to be open world PVP in a brilliantly executed system like Eve Online.
Smedley's blog post covers a lot, but here are some of the highlights:
"A lot has been made about how much we’re pushing this concept of “Sandbox” mmos being the future. Not a lot has been said about what that means."
"In my opinion the solution is focusing a lot more on letting players make and be content for each other. Battlegrounds are an excellent example of an Evergreen style of content where it’s the players themselves that actually create the content. ... Building systems into the games that let the players interact with each other in new and unique ways gives us the ability to watch as the players do stuff we never anticipated. We’ll see a lot more creativity in action if the players are at the center of it. Imagine an MMORPG of a massive city.. and the Rogue’s guild is entirely run by players. Where the city has an entire political system that is populated by players who were elected by the playerbase."
"There’s a great example of this today with Eve Online. It’s a brilliantly executed system where the players are pretty much in charge of the entire game. Sure there is a lot of content for players to do, but anything that’s important in the game is done by the players. This is a shining example of how this kind of system can thrive.
Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting."
Is anyone from the other side of the fence ready to admit this is happening?
Edit: Sorry, that was bad form. Here is the blog post:
Funny how he never talks about open world pvp. So nope, you fail again.
There will be PvP on the PvP servers, but not the PvE ones, this is really no different to the original EQ, and its a formula that worked and will probably continue to do so, though why the PvP'ers are so upset that there are PvE servers i have no idea.
Stop being so freakin apprehensive of the player vs player dynamic
They are not apprehensive of the player vs player dynamic, they are apprehensive of assholes.
They want to log in and have some fun not have to deal with someone who needs to let their issues out in a video game.
The more they can minimize their exposure to such people the better their time can be. Not saying that those people don't infect pve mmo's but their impact is felt a little less.
Maybe you should understand the people you are talking about instead of just posting a manifesto that doesn't get to the heart of the matter.
"they don't want to play with you". Or at least undesirables, whoever they may be.
Case closed.
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Comments
Well, what's H1Z1 then?
Open World PvP, I used to be all for it, but now I find myself disliking it more than anything. I would prefer an option, Open PvP servers and non. For me, the fun in PvP is gone. I loved it when I was younger, now-a-days the fun factor has left the building. I would rather see a great storyline and challenging PvE unlike a good portion of MMOs these days. If they forced the Open PvP on all the servers, I would immediately lose interest in the game.
Call me carebear all you want, but to each their own. I find PvP less engaging than a good story and PvE with a good AI to back it up.
Heck I would be happy with Everquest 1 in the Cry3 engine.
WinnTech
lol, look at EVE's current online players, now look at SOE, do you really expect SOE to live with a lowly 70K ish online player base? They'll most likely shut the game down within a few months if that were to happen. Open World PvP with questing and raids is the perfect recipe for a disaster. And EVE-Online might look beautiful and all, but for a 10+ year old MMO, it has a lousy number of active accounts and keep in mind close to half the player base multi clients. So yeah, EVE used to be good, but with Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen and Novus Aeterno coming our way, EVE-Online will just silently die off.
Sad thing about CCP, is that Dust 514 and EVE Valkyrie were promises made by CCP for future expansions on EVE-Online. Just sad that they had to do 3 different games instead of incorporating everything in to EVE, it would of made a lot of people P2P EVE-Online. Oh well, maybe someday 20-30 years from now we'll have a thread "what if...?" , CCP were light years ahead of the competition, but not anymore.
carebears...theyre everywhere
listen
pve = themepark
sandbox pve games dont make any sense - at least not until we have a much better developped ai...
and there are MORE than enough themepark pve mmo's that have all the bells and whistles you could be looking for - gameplay for YEARS...
its time for some player driven sand box games, and player driven means player ruling, player politics, player wars
I like how you start out with lol, and then state that EVE has only 70k active players.
EVE has over 500k and is currently the second largest subscription based mmo, in the west, after WoW.
it also happens to be the ONLY subscription based mmo that continues to grow its subscriber base.
Dust and Valkyrie were never promised as eve expansions. They were always intended as separate games, and only dust was deigned to tie into EVE. CCP was just talking about looking into ways to tie Valkyrie into eve at fan feet, but haven't promised anything.
Thats some seriously blatant lying you did there man.
Simple facts are that in the West, if you want any substantial numbers to try your game, you need to limit the PVP options to where the PVE crowd will dabble in it, but not feel like they have to look over their shoulders all the time.
All the catch phrases like risk -vs- reward just tell the PVE crowd that this is another game to skip. Player ruled? Ya right, you mean you get to gank whoever you want whenever you want, not gonna happen in any popular game.
Cry me a river you bears you say? Well the dev;s say give me your cash bears. And Bear cash seems to be winning dont you think?
Time will tell, but i can not see the folks putting up the cash for these games to be made, going that far out on a limb in the West. Limited PVP draws majority of the PVE crowd as well as some of the PVP crowd.
Just do not see that changing in any drastic way, no matter what type game, be it "Sandbox or Theme"
Your quite right, there are absolutely bucket loads of themepark MMO's catering to PvE players, while PvP games are few and far between.
So the question is "Why are there so few PVP games to choose from?" and why are games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall so poorly populated if they are already offering PVP players what they want ie full loot OW PVP action.
I remember how these forums where ablaze before Darkfall and Mortal went live, how these games where the answer to hardcore PVP players prayers.
I'm a PvE player at heart, yet I absolutely love taking part in OW PVP when it's been done right and done well, where I'm not going to be the main course at a gank fest, but be involved in tactical warfare with a real fighting chance at being able to defeat my opponent through skill, not at how much higher in lvl I am to them.
I've watched my grown son of 22 play WoW on a PvP server, seen him take his max lvl hunter and gank at many lowbies as possible, the whole time laughing like a mad man, I usually switch my router off when he tries to make a run for it when they bring their mains on, and it's my turn to have a laugh when he logs back into a corpse and is corpse camped. This to me is your typical PvP player, pick on the weak, and run like hell when you have a chance at facing an opponent of equal measure.
So while the PvP players complain about the lack of PvP MMO's out there, can you really blame developers for not wanting to actually make any, when the few PvP MMO's available are home to tumbleweeds and crickets, how could you possibly make any money from an empty game.
What I blame developers for:
- Being lazy and unimaginative, as by now systems should have been invented that allow PvE and open world PvP to coexist, e.g. gold bounties on players, justice/jail, perma death for people who gank, etc. - and this is just crap I made up in 30 seconds, sitting here, but I'm sure a dude whose f'ing job it is to develop MMO mechanics could be a little bit more f'ing inventive.
There are a number of alternatives between "Hardcore PvP" and "no PvP". I think it's time game companies explore those alternatives, with intelligent rules that do not leave anyone behind (and where the equation risk vs reward is real).
- Thinking that PvP is one player kills another player in combat. There are a lot of possibilities for PvP (political system, building system, assassination contracts, stealing from other players, etc.) or competitions, rankings, etc.
No instead, they give us the usual poorly implemented crappy button mashing PvP (it's fun for a while though). I'm sure more types of PvP -less about reflex and button mashing - would attract a variety PvE players.
- Developing the same mechanics again and again instead of doing the above. Namely developing the usual: instanced PvP, different rules on different servers, idiotic system that does not punish gankers, levels that make essentially a high level player unkillable by a lowbie, etc.
Come one dudes!!! Is it not obvious what's going to happen? Can't you just look at the countless number of games you are trying to emulate and what happened here? Making for more crappy games and more complaints from PvE players, and making the situation worse.
Proof? This thread. Nobody thinks outside the box and PvE players just feel that "PvP" (whatever that means in their limited little brains) will never be for them. And I don't blame them, few game companies have showed the way so far...
The low populations of games like MO and DF have nothing to do with the pvp, and everything to do with the quality of the game.
Quality AAA games aren't made by gamers, they're made by lawyers and businessmen who care more about maximizing profit then they do about providing games people would play. That's why EVE is the only good sandbox on the market, and also why CCP won't push the game itself beyond what it is, the board of investors isn't willing to take a chance. CCP would rather gamble on a new game that utilizes an already proven formula (fps set up like cod. Dust and Valkyrie both) then actually expand on EVE itself with things like atmospheric flight and walking in stations.
And the last time I checked, almost every theme park has gone free to play, or shut down. Theme parks are easier to monetize, they already followed a DLC like format with the need to constantly push out more content.
Most of the theme parks, under a subscription model, usually had fewer subscribers than EVE.
Lineage 2 on the other hand is the only mmo that ever saw WoW like numbers. Something around the order of 12 million people played that game at one point.
When was that, 2003?
You really have your head shoved very far up somewhere if you actually think that is true. And even if some games have done F2P, do you really think it is because they will make MORE money or less by doing so? I made it easier for you to answer correctly).
Seriously, the reason full loot, open world, gank infested games are not successful is because they are full loot, open world, gank infested games. It isn't any deeper then that.
I'm a PVPer, but would rather play a good PVE game then a crappy PVP one. I hope EQN gets it right, but it is yet to be seen what they have up their sleeves. To get it right, they will have to think out the box as you say, but even then, there are so many ways to do it wrong or for players to take what is available and take the fun out of it.
I believe that is the entire point to Storybricks and emergent AI. If it is what they say, it should bring a new level of challenge and life to PVE that hasn't been done before. While it might not replace the full thrill of PVP, it could bring it pretty close.
Player driven doesn't work in a fantasy mmorpg with multiple servers. If players can pack up and move servers or just reroll on another, players will never get the same buy in that they have in games like EVE with one "server."
PVE, PVP, Themepark, Sandbox = buzzwords. They have no one definition or way to do it.
H1Z1 looks to be a player driven sandbox and so far looks to be just like every other OW PVP game (DF, MO, DayZ) a complete mindless FPS. Just because you provide the tools to the players (politics, resources, economy, territory control, etc) doesn't mean players will embrace it and not simply go out and kill one another.
The reason there hasn't be a real successful fantasy mmorpg with OW FFA PVP is because players/people are jerks when they get behind a screen. Freedom is too much for a good chunk of gamers. It would be amazing to have a real "virtual world" with realistic elements, but the truth is, most people will simply just turn it into a kill fest by outnumbering or outgunning others. Rarely do players actually want to use cunning, strategy, actual brain power when it comes to conflict.
We have yet to see how EQN will tackle PVP, but I'm hoping for either Opt-In with a game that rewards those that embrace conflict without punishing those that don't. If you want to farm all day, great. If you want to farm on the weekdays and battle for land on the weekends, even better.
OPEN WORLD PVP is the only thing which makes sense anymore as the MMORPG environment has changed and evolved
Players have evolved to the point where PvE isn't as interesting nor as challenging as it used to be (Some of us have have felt this way for much longer then others, as it is neither good nor bad, it is what it is)
BOTs now plague many MMORPGs and the only way to keep them in check is open world pvp where everyone can be contended and everything is contested. No game developer nor game admin can seem to tackle this problem effectively enough. Personally I say, "BRING ON THE BOTS!"; Its time for all of us to evolve
Artificial Intelligence in Everquest Next sounds as if it is going to quite refreshing as we all have been waiting for adaptable, learning AI for as long as we've been playing games.
Participated in Monster Play in Lord of the Rings Online; I consider this to be the future of MMORPGs alongside player controlled minions with flowchart instructional AI and some with adaptable, learning AI
Best way for open world pvp to be successful, exciting, adventurous and fun for everyone involved is for players to police themselves so to speak. Have bounties on players who murder, steal, etc... This rids the game of griefers as players can deal with problem players however they see fit and there is an incentive to encourage players to seek out justice and it also makes being the bad guy much more exciting and challenging and suspenseful.
Will be back to add more later as I am heading out to see my MOM today as its Mothers Days ya'll
Feel free to reply and lets make this discussion much more interesting and insightful
Bidwood,
I realize how excited you are that you feel that SoE will in way clone Eve's pvp style and philosophy because Smed enjoys it so much. However, take in consideration that many of us do not play Eve. Yep, Eve stands at this writing the most popular and longest lasting space mmo. However, the numbers do not support that the over 20 million or more mmo gamers out there necessarily agree with Master Smedley or, for that matter, even know what Eve is. Simply put, how many actually log on every evening to go through what one must to endure the style in Eve?
I, for one, do NOT want to play another Eve. I do NOT want to play another WoW either. Thus, I am fairly sure that the next successful mmo will not play exactly like either Eve or WoW, to name those two for this example. H1Z1 is fine. It will have pvp and that's good for that genre. Do you actually take Master Smed at his word? What is his track record for accuracy in the past 15 years at SoE? I have taken it from this forum as well as some others that he often speaks a bit "out of turn" as he gets super excited and somewhat opinionated about his play-style.
At any rate, sir, well written thread. I do not agree, but that is what makes the spice of life, is it not?
Keep on rockin' the free world!
Alyn ... /salutes
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
I'm a PVPer and am all for a game that tries to break the mold and attempts to bring more depth to mmos. So far, no game has done that while focusing on OW PVP. While I hope EQN has some good PVP elements, I highly doubt it will be the focus. The market and money just isn't there. H1Z1 is a good example of a OW PVP game that won't appeal to the masses. Why? Because regardless of what they throw on top, it will still boil down to a KOS fest.
I'm really hoping the AI they are hyping actually makes PVE and the world exciting for once. If they can toss in some player conflict (economy, resources, land control, etc) that will be icing. Simply allowing us to kill one another for no reason is not the solution. I'll stick to FPS/MOBAs if I just want to PEW PEW everyone I see. Would rather have no PVP then have it in instanced battlegrounds as well. So while my hopes are high for EQN, I'm not holding my breath in the PVP department.
Sometimes I long to go back to the days of early Everquest when the great majority of players were n00bs; therefore the learning curve demanded more of a cooperative effort which fostered the community (essential in any MMORPG) as leveling was hard as death penalties surely contributed and grouping/raiding was necessary as the MOBs were very formidable and the best gear was ofiten obtained through the most challenging cooperative effort.
Times have changed and so have the players. We have all been exposed to many different facets of gameplay in this genre. Life has also changed for us all as has the world we are a part of. We have another generation of gamers added to the mix and more to come.
N00bs are very uncommon and loosely regarded. Competition and Recognition has turned MMORPGs into a sham as there is no real sense of community as everyone seems to be in it for themselves and their overall experience. Also, people are simply too busy, preoccupied, distracted, overwhelmed, overworked, dumbed down, sick and tired to really take the time to truly immerse themselves into an MMORPG as we were able to years ago. PvE and technological barriers go hand in hand so therefore PvP became one of the few viable and reasonable options for developers as gamers grew weary of the same ol predictible AI as well as ridiculously programmed raid content.
Everquest Next development team has mentioned MOB AI is going to be much more formidable as it learns, and adapts and even cooperates with players and other MOB types in regards to their intelligence and the survival of their kind. This however will not suffice as we have witnessed in many an MMORPG that players always seem to find a way to undermine game mechanics and AI programming. Ultimately it comes down to a world of constant contention where everything is contested and everyone must choose their allies, adversaries, battles, and diplomacy wisely.
BOTs and Gold Spammers have become a plague to any MMORPG. They not only ruin any chance for a player driven economy. They contest every worthwhile MOB and quest. They contest every resource and every optimal avenue for gear and gold. The only way to eradicate this plague is to meet it head on, through open world PvP. This forces the gold farming company to organize and therein put themselves into a position where they are reckoned with. Often I have wondered why developers and game designers continue to release MMORPGs that cater to gold farming companies and their ilk. Unless the gold farming companies have infiltrated game design to such a degree that they are way ahead of the game, so to speak and/or the development team, game designers and investors somehow profit and benefit from their continuous and incessant charade.
Community is ultimately where a MMORPG succeeds or fails; In order to successfully establish a thriving and evolved community in a MMORPG you have to encourage players to fully engage themselves to the point where they are not only put in a position to interact and work with other players and MOBs, they feel compelled to do so, in order for them and their allies to prevail against the overwhelming odds as everyone and everything is in constant contention. Player driven economy must be allowed to flourish as in any open market that serves the needs and desires of a community. Resources will always be widely available and contested by players and MOBs as they help them to not only sustain their communities, they are necessary for crafting, diplomacy through trade and expansion of their community.
How do you prevent empire building where one faction triumphs and becomes imbalanced so as to wipe out other factions, so to speak. You allow players to sustain factions comprised of MOBs and players. The only way to allow this is to have open world PvP where factions can see fit to make policy and police it however they see fit. Allow players to handle dissension, diplomacy, war, strive, conflict, exploration, expansion, etc... You mentioned griefers unbalancing the game as they would manipulate and undermine the game mechanics and MOB AI so as to gain advantage which would put them directly in contention (if they were organized and recognizable), unless they were seemingly random and scattered yet somehow collectively an underlying nuisance to overall gameplay for players on their particular server. Well this wouldn't happen in a game where everything and everyone was in contention as even MOBs chose their allies and adversaries in an environment where factions played an important role as factions was one of the greatest achievements of original Everquest to this day. Factions is how you handle constant strife. Even the yin/yang symbol represents the balance and harmony of the duality that comprises all things, as even in light there is dark and in dark there is light. You cannot have one without the other...
Developers are going to have to WAKE UP players for players to engage and immerse themselves into an MMORPG. The only way to do this is REVOLUTIONARY game mechanics and design borrowed, optimized, and enhanced from previous MMORPGs in this genre. Open world PvP thrives and proliferates within a faction system, where your faction is directly affected by your actions in game (i.e. attacking and/or killing certain factions (including your faction)).
I'm right there with you wanting something "more" then what we've seen so far. I think EQN is a step in that direction. Before we can get into OW PVP type games though, I think players need to be set free of the grasp of the themepark addiction that has become the norm. Society in general is so stuck on instant gratification and not having to work for anything, that any sort of higher brain power mmo that requires teamwork, planning, foresight, etc would either be too hard or just boring for those that are stuck in the instant port to dungeon, kill mobs mindlessly, get shiny loot, repeat mode.
If EQN (and probably Blizzard's next) can break that cycle to some degree, I think we might start seeing companies take a chance. Pathfinder Online looks very interesting but it is still just a small blip on the radar. Companies are pouring big bucks into mmos and from what I see, aren't setting the genre on fire. While I do not consider any game a failure, to say SWOTR, GW2, ESO, or WIldstar have/will be a new page in the genre history is reaching. I think what you speak of (and I would love) is still a few chapters away sadly. EQN is hopefully at least several pages skipped ahead.
Wishful thinking, but I have some faith in SOE. We'll see what they actually have planned in action at some point. But I highly doubt it will be the OW FFA PVP Sandbox that some of us are wanting. I'm fine with that as long as EQN is still a great game in of itself. Might not hit every check box on my list, but it can come close. I think being F2P really opens the doors for what they can try down the road. Without needing to pump out an expansion every 200 days, they can focus on making the core game better, which can include focusing on player conflict and other elements that have been missing from most these games.
Sony Online Entertainment President John Smedley, enjoys EvE Online
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/PvP
Get acquainted with the nuances of EvE Online PvP cuz some form of it is comin to Everquest Next
Everquest brought forth a faction system that was ingenius in many ways. This faction system hasn't be utilized and implemented as it could revolutionize any MMORPG and bring something to this genre that is surely needed and only makes sense. Even in original D&D and AD&D you had alignments; Chaotic/Lawful/Neutral and Good/Neutral/Evil. Imagine the possibilities of utilizing factions and alignments in a game where MOBs possess emergent AI and the game isn't simply about strategically murdering, plundering, assassinating, raiding, etc.. MOBs as much as it is about working for, with and against MOBs alongside other players in a game where everything is contested and everyone is in a constant struggle for, with, and against each other and the environment.
In Everquest I remember players on the pvp server and the race war servers talking about grinding certain factions for strategy and survival. I initially played on Vallon Zek and as a monk I realized early on I really had no chance against casters or really much of a chance against most any class at earlier levels, especially without suitable gear. I had to either close the gap very quickly and/or train MOBs onto my opponent(s). I remember getting reported for training a bunch of Ghouls onto some darkies in the middle of the night in Northern Desert of Ro as the lighties were overwhelmed and outnumbered near Freeport. Afterwards much laughter ensued, as it was pretty hilarious to observe and very impressive how well my strategy worked in our favor. I remember saying on my behalf, "You all are darkies so I just figured you wanted to bond with your fellow brethren, Ghouls". Think I also had a mummy in tow as well. I remember playing a druid and charming animals to attack opponents while they grinded MOBs. All is fair in love and war
Core game is where this franchise is going to prevail as I am sure SOE doesn't want a repeat of what occurred with WoW vs EQ2 circa 2004. Ten years later and there are many more bold titles being developed and released in this genre by experienced and seasoned developers from previously successful MMORPGs. SOE really needs to bring it and from what I have witnessed to date they really seem to be on the right track. Everquest Next is going to have to revolutionize every facet of an MMORPG to produce something players want to experience; considering all the competition in this genre. An important facet of any MMORPG is PvP as this is an evolving genre and we are way past the glory days of old where grinding, grouping for, and raiding PvE content has been there, done that as we all got the T shirt.
Emergent AI is something many of us are really excited about and looking forward to witnessing and experiencing firsthand. However there is much skepticism amongst the MMORPG populace as we are well aware of hype and marketing machine that plays an essential role in developing, producing, and releasing a successful MMORPG. Many of us have turned into critics and I for one see this being tooled to the hilt, unless it plays an essential role in every facet of gameplay, including PvP. The only way for this to successfully work is within a faction based open world PvP dynamic.
Many of us await E3 that will be happening in less then a month. Hopefully SOE unveils alot more about Everquest Next this year. We all need to make sure we bring up the ongoing PvP debate concerning Everquest Next. Obviously it concerns a alot of people as there are many lengthy threads about it on various forums. Lets make sure this gets brought to the table for discussion and comments by developers and maybe even Ol Smedley
First: If one looks at the data, FFA PvP sandbox is overrated. http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/20/some-assembly-required-yet-another-ffa-pvp-sandbox/. If you argue that everyone wants FFA PvP, at minimum more people would play games with FFA PvP. However, I'm not saying that there should be set safe-zones and pvp zones.
I am first going to argue that, in the most general sense, removing pvp can actually increase freedom. It's called the social contract. In real life, people give up the right to kill people in exchange for the right to not be killed. Of course, in real life, this is enforced voluntarily by people rather than by hard-coded facts.
Personally (and this is sorta tangential), I envision a sandbox in which players are given tools which can be used alter the presence of pvp in areas. The specifics that I'm going to mention aren't what's important, but rather that players are given the ability to prevent/discourage pvp through means which can be contested by other players. My idea includes npc guards which can teleport (the teleport would have a cooldown) to cases of pvp in their nearby area, but the guards are neither finite, immortal, omnipresent, nor free, thus the guards would not suffice in situations with large-scale invasions or wide-scale chaos and would require player action. The guards (patrol coverage, strength, and numbers) would be associated with cities, and thus the players could prevent pvp in areas by establishing and growing their own outposts (if that is possible) or by aiding and influencing npc cities. Secondly, pvpers would negative karma for each player (and guard) they kill, and this karma would increase the death penalty. However, karma would fade over time, so if other players or guards cannot enforce anti-pvp measures, the pvper would get off just fine. This would also mean that the players who suffer more from pvp are the same ones who apparently think pvp is fine, which is something interesting to think about. The importance of this karma system is so that players can use death as a deterrence for pvp: if the penalty is equal for everyone then raising it would make griefing more effective (and rewarding) and potentially hurt everyone else while lowering it might let the pvpers shrug off the death penalty more easily.
This thread is really amusing to say the least;
Why are all the naysayers so apprehensive, concerned, and afraid of PvP in an MMORPG when it has been an integral part of the evolution of this genre?
Face it folks PvE isn't even remotely challenging as it once was when you got hit in the face by a median level NPC Necromancer's punch in Everquest for more damage then a max level Player Character Monk could muster for most of their unarmed attacks. This wasn't even remotely immersive, yet it was challenging :P
Players had to group in original EQ simply because even conned MOBs were as strong as optimally twinked player characters of the same level. MOBs linked up and worked better (especially in dungeons) and aggro range was carefully considered due to MOB linking and trains.
Grouping in MMORPGs these days isn't as important as it was back in the day. Constant whining from casual players has reduced MMORPGs to nothing more then hand holding and grab assed folly at best.
Oh wait lets not forget all the raiders extraordinaire who played it to the hilt in ol Everquest with their carefully strategized min/max gameplay, downing all the added content and expansion pack raid bosses; Only to grow past the game and move on to World of Warcraft where they were placed in charge of all the Raid content and all I gotta say is WoW. They managed to evolve raiding from huge ridiculous long hour raids where one person could wipe the entire raid; to raids which catered to the casual gamers and we all know where that ended up. PvP ended up becoming more center stage in WoW because PvE had been played to the hilt in the current engine and couldn't be more immersive nor challenging without totally revamping and releasing a new product.
Emergent AI? Many of us are not only highly skeptical of such a boast, we doubt they can actually bring such a dynamic to Everquest Next without it being undermined and turned into a laughable mess by players who enjoy nothing more then trivializing PvE content in each and every new title that hits the market in this genre. It's simply programmed MOBs with a set number of choices and decisions limited to the program. in otherwords, its LIMITED! We, are LIMITLESS!
The most challenging and immersive gameplay anyone will experience these days will be against other players. MOBs within their current AI limitations and restrictions (due to technological limitations) are just not going to entertain, nor prove challenging enough overtime as the game progresses. I've played many of the most notable MMORPG titles til a few years ago when I realized the genre had hit a wall, so to speak.
Not only is it a monumental task to develop a good MMORPG; it cost lots of money, time, and energy to bring it to the market; only to often end up being plagued by bugs, bots, gold farmers/spammers, latency issues, class/template imbalancing, game design issues, etc.. and so on. Players shouldn't be subjected to this sort of nonsense; They should be empowered to enforce policy in the game (hence the word POLICE) and they should be able to be free to do as they desire (cuz its a GAME folks!) and they should be encouraged and motivated to provide feedback so as to improve the game as it progresses and evolves. The only way to do this is allowing a sensible PvP dynamic so players can work together, for, and against each other and the MOBs/environment. PvP removes the game breakin issues currently plaguing many of the new MMORPGs (i.e. BOTs. farmers, spammers, griefers) by making them KOS by the playerbase enmasse.
I've mentioned factions and alignments to really factor in much moreso then it did in Everquest, so as to evolve and foster player conflict, diplomacy, trade, cooperation, and competition. Monster Play in Lord of the Rings Online really exposed me to what I consider to be the future of MMORPGs; where the players play against each other as evil vs good. This alongside the so called emergent AI dynamic could really prove to be revolutionary and game changing for this genre. DAoC showed the value of multiple alliances. Evolve this to include factions/alignments and allow players to interact with MOBs much moreso and the possibilities grow exponentially.
I could go on and on here but the gist of this thread is simply an ongoing debate concerning FFA PvP much like it is in EvE. I'm not an advocate of rampant, reckless, uncontrolled, mayhem that players have associated with FFA PvP. We should all accept PvP as an integral part of this genre as we all should accept the limitations of technology and lack of immersion which have more too often ruined what could have proved to be something much more worthwhile and adventurous by an MMORPG choosing to go the route of PvE.
Community is something I firmly believe has suffered as a result of poor game design. Without community an MMORPG turns into a multiplayer game. Community can be enhanced within the player controlled dynamic that I had previously mentioned beforehand. Allowing the players much more freedom and influence over the game provides more player involvement, exchange, communication, interaction, etc....Community has been so lacking in so many MMORPGs since the good ol days where we were not only encouraged we were basically forced to interact with each other much moreso.
People say casual players have been a plague upon this genre. Whilst I will agree to some degree; I will say it is moreso poor game design and game mechanics. I was one of the many who defined the term powergamer. Until I realized it didn't serve the greater good for one and all involved. Casual play should be the target market, yet dedicated players should be rewarded, yet not to such a degree so as to encourage powergaming and frustrate the majority of players who consist primarily of casual gamers. People gotta live productive lives, yet we are becoming more and more of a technologically driven society. It is the judicious balance of nature and technology that will ultimately prove to foster and evolve humanity into the new world.
Stop being so freakin apprehensive of the player vs player dynamic and lets come to some consensus within the realization of the fact we really need each other to move forward in this genre. The development company cannot be expected to enforce policy in their own games. It is high time the players should be empowered within appropriate game design with the right game mechanics to work together to create community involvement which will effectively address the problems currently plaguing MMORPGs at this time in this genre. The only way to do this is to allow PvP to perform the role it was always meant to; To foster peace and prosperity through conflict, diplomacy, trade, cooperation, competition, etc...so players can realize justice is ultimately served by one and all. Instead of being the harshest of critics and skeptics often bringing ruin to many MMORPGs; lets work with the developers much moreso during the development phase so the developer can realize how much moreso the player is needed to enforce and uphold policy during gameplay. PVP along with emergent AI PvE is the only way!
Funny how he never talks about open world pvp. So nope, you fail again.
There will be PvP on the PvP servers, but not the PvE ones, this is really no different to the original EQ, and its a formula that worked and will probably continue to do so, though why the PvP'ers are so upset that there are PvE servers i have no idea.
They are not apprehensive of the player vs player dynamic, they are apprehensive of assholes.
They want to log in and have some fun not have to deal with someone who needs to let their issues out in a video game.
The more they can minimize their exposure to such people the better their time can be. Not saying that those people don't infect pve mmo's but their impact is felt a little less.
Maybe you should understand the people you are talking about instead of just posting a manifesto that doesn't get to the heart of the matter.
"they don't want to play with you". Or at least undesirables, whoever they may be.
Case closed.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo